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I heard SB rangers are the new 1v1 FOTM.


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#1 Korra

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 03:19 PM

Run in circles pressing one (and some occasional cripple).
.
How do you rangers feel about that?

Note that i dont have any problem with it since cond removal and  hard cc counters it really easy but from what i heard  they are the new FOTM. But i certanly seen a lot of rangers lately, yesterday i was in a tem with 5 rangers and the enemy had 4.

inb4 omfg * off we re not fotm.

#2 Speno

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 03:37 PM

View PostKorra, on 28 January 2013 - 03:19 PM, said:

Run in circles pressing one (and some occasional cripple).
.
How do you rangers feel about that?

Note that i dont have any problem with it since cond removal and  hard cc counters it really easy but from what i heard  they are the new FOTM. But i certanly seen a lot of rangers lately, yesterday i was in a tem with 5 rangers and the enemy had 4.

inb4 omfg * off we re not fotm.
6 months ago yes we were really powerfull. Today not so much the shortbow now will only get about 5-6 bleed stacks. It also depends a lot on build are you fighting trap rangers, power rangers, or bm rangers. A ranger with a sb doesn't mean a thing.

Edited by Speno, 28 January 2013 - 03:38 PM.


#3 Korra

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 03:53 PM

View PostSpeno, on 28 January 2013 - 03:37 PM, said:

6 months ago yes we were really powerfull. Today not so much the shortbow now will only get about 5-6 bleed stacks. It also depends a lot on build are you fighting trap rangers, power rangers, or bm rangers. A ranger with a sb doesn't mean a thing.

I know it depends on the build, i guess cond is more viable.

#4 Kumori Tensei

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 04:00 PM

As a ranger myself, i find the SB in PvP not as strong as other combinations I can have. And a glass cannon ranger in PvP is really easy to kill. So to counter a ranger just bring some condition removal and I think you'll be golden. I only bring a SB for the nice utilities it brings...cripple, free dodge, stun, poison.

Granted I have not been to the mists in a week or so. So maybe there is some new ranger SB build that is just amazing lol :D

#5 Tempo

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 04:26 PM

Well,

This ranger has to play trap because SB alone does not deal enough damage. SB + trap is ok, SB alone is not.
So this ranger is trap and 1v1 so he will build around condition and use sword-dagger or torch as second weapon set. Sword is almost mandatory to 1v1.
So that ranger will lack mobility (no warhorn, no signet of the hunt). With shaman amulet, he will not reach the regen power of a true tanky ranger, with rabbid or carrion he will not be tanky at all.

So you'll have a good 1v1 guy with weakness : no mobility / subpar tankyness/ SB does not deal that much damage when the ennemy is facing you. If he is 1v1 specced, he is pretty meh in team fights.

This is truly viable,this is good but not OP at all, nothing to fear really. Except when they double trap you or attack you from higher position so you are half dead when reaching him. Positionning issue.

This is from a ranger point of view. Remenber that ranger have so few viable builds before cruing to nerf :).

Edited by Tempo, 28 January 2013 - 04:27 PM.


#6 JROH

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 04:36 PM

No I've been seeing lots of complaining going on about rangers as well. So I've been sifting through threads seeing what people have to say, and it is generally classes that either play glass cannons or some other setup that won't win an attrition fight, versus the most common ranger build right now, the 0/0/30/10/30 or similar setup that involves bunkering.

Honestly, when I see the complaints, it comes from a lot of the classes that have been running cookie cutter builds for months now that were really popular, so much so that people built to hard counter those builds in particular. The ranger community succeeded in creating a counter, and now people are complaining that a class they previously had success with is being countered.

This by definition is metagame. I personally have no problem killing the "FOTM ranger" on any other class I play as, but that could be attributed to many different things, like knowing the inner workings and flaws of one of my own favorite builds, for instance.
Generally though the build doesn't really carry the player as much as throwing a berserkers amulet onto a thief and hitting haste and the 2 button repeatedly.

Basically, people that play the game against the idea that things will evolve and change (seriously, if you play a back stab thief or a shatter mesmer, did you really think people were going to be happy with getting melted by you without ever trying to come up with a counter they can run) are the ones complaining. Necros can melt rangers with conditions, good eles should have no problem as long as the ranger doesn't have stability active, and just about every other class has an easy enough time against rangers except for high direct damage, because that is one thing that in general that the build is built to counter the most of, with high toughness and healing.

Personally I think it will be a good change for rangers overall. What I foresee happening is people trying to FoTM and pick up ranger, then complaining all over message boards that things aren't working or they don't understand why other people can do something they can't. It should be good to bring some life back into a very stagnant community, as well as bring a focus to the class, as generally, when a class has a large focus and a vocal community, the devs pay more attention to it, and we might finally get some of the bugs and issues addressed that people have been complaining about from day 1.

#7 Tempo

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 04:47 PM

View PostJROH, on 28 January 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

No I've been seeing lots of complaining going on about rangers as well. So I've been sifting through threads seeing what people have to say, and it is generally classes that either play glass cannons or some other setup that won't win an attrition fight, versus the most common ranger build right now, the 0/0/30/10/30 or similar setup that involves bunkering.

Honestly, when I see the complaints, it comes from a lot of the classes that have been running cookie cutter builds for months now that were really popular, so much so that people built to hard counter those builds in particular. The ranger community succeeded in creating a counter, and now people are complaining that a class they previously had success with is being countered.

This by definition is metagame. I personally have no problem killing the "FOTM ranger" on any other class I play as, but that could be attributed to many different things, like knowing the inner workings and flaws of one of my own favorite builds, for instance.
Generally though the build doesn't really carry the player as much as throwing a berserkers amulet onto a thief and hitting haste and the 2 button repeatedly.

Basically, people that play the game against the idea that things will evolve and change (seriously, if you play a back stab thief or a shatter mesmer, did you really think people were going to be happy with getting melted by you without ever trying to come up with a counter they can run) are the ones complaining. Necros can melt rangers with conditions, good eles should have no problem as long as the ranger doesn't have stability active, and just about every other class has an easy enough time against rangers except for high direct damage, because that is one thing that in general that the build is built to counter the most of, with high toughness and healing.

Personally I think it will be a good change for rangers overall. What I foresee happening is people trying to FoTM and pick up ranger, then complaining all over message boards that things aren't working or they don't understand why other people can do something they can't. It should be good to bring some life back into a very stagnant community, as well as bring a focus to the class, as generally, when a class has a large focus and a vocal community, the devs pay more attention to it, and we might finally get some of the bugs and issues addressed that people have been complaining about from day 1.

Wait? what? You are saying that people complain about 0/0/30/10/30 SB rangers? That build is good but deals subpar damage. That is why i thought people were complaining about SB/trapper ranger...

Seriously, if you think a 0/0/30/10/30 SB rangers is the biggest threat atm in 1v1 it's because you are just surprised to see a ranger that is not a free kill. In one month, when they will not surprise you anymore you will understand that they are not that strong.

#8 JROH

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 05:04 PM

View PostTempo, on 28 January 2013 - 04:47 PM, said:

Wait? what? You are saying that people complain about 0/0/30/10/30 SB rangers? That build is good but deals subpar damage. That is why i thought people were complaining about SB/trapper ranger...

Seriously, if you think a 0/0/30/10/30 SB rangers is the biggest threat atm in 1v1 it's because you are just surprised to see a ranger that is not a free kill. In one month, when they will not surprise you anymore you will understand that they are not that strong.

You do realize I main ranger, right? I was never talking about lethality of builds. Just because traps deal more damage doesn't mean that they are better at bunkering, and bunkering is generally the build that is going to 1v1 because if it can't win a 1v1 it probably shouldn't be considered a bunker.
Secondly, what do you mean weak? I had no idea being able to stack 15 bleed stacks in 5 seconds was weak. That isn't on the shortbow though, that is on the weapon swap to activate geomancy and hit them with axe 2 and dagger 5. Or torch for burns over bleeds, if playing a more offensive based condition build.
Thirdly, while I'm trying to respond as dignified as possible, I have to say that if you think traps are the only build, and as a matter of fact, the 1v1 build that is getting so much flak when people are talking about issues with 1v1 against rangers, then I'm really not sure where you have been if this is a FOTM build to you. Trap builds have been popular and strong since release, but they are certainly not what all the hype is about right now.
Rangers have one of the stronger bunker based builds in the game right now, and it is the increase in their popularity, especially through the use of the ANet forums and youtube (look at Xsorus series he keeps up with, for instance) that is what people are complaining about.
If it was the trap build, people would have been complaining for much longer than they have been now in the recent weeks. Although there is a pretty powerful healing based trap build that combines the strengths of the two builds fairly effectively.

#9 Tempo

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 05:48 PM

View PostJROH, on 28 January 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:

You do realize I main ranger, right? I was never talking about lethality of builds. Just because traps deal more damage doesn't mean that they are better at bunkering, and bunkering is generally the build that is going to 1v1 because if it can't win a 1v1 it probably shouldn't be considered a bunker.
Secondly, what do you mean weak? I had no idea being able to stack 15 bleed stacks in 5 seconds was weak. That isn't on the shortbow though, that is on the weapon swap to activate geomancy and hit them with axe 2 and dagger 5. Or torch for burns over bleeds, if playing a more offensive based condition build.
Thirdly, while I'm trying to respond as dignified as possible, I have to say that if you think traps are the only build, and as a matter of fact, the 1v1 build that is getting so much flak when people are talking about issues with 1v1 against rangers, then I'm really not sure where you have been if this is a FOTM build to you. Trap builds have been popular and strong since release, but they are certainly not what all the hype is about right now.
Rangers have one of the stronger bunker based builds in the game right now, and it is the increase in their popularity, especially through the use of the ANet forums and youtube (look at Xsorus series he keeps up with, for instance) that is what people are complaining about.
If it was the trap build, people would have been complaining for much longer than they have been now in the recent weeks. Although there is a pretty powerful healing based trap build that combines the strengths of the two builds fairly effectively.

Sorry if i were a bit rude in my answer, that was the surprise. I know you main a ranger and i know that you are one of the few here that can have a valid discussion. So glad to exchange my point of view with you. And i main an ranger too.

The thread is about SB, at least the questioon of the first poster. So i answered with SB in mind, only SB. Axe dagger and sword torch are another story and more powerfull than SB imo. I think we agree on that.

I don't agree with you saying that a bunker shouldn't be considered a bunker if it can't win a 1V1. A guardian bunker deals no damage, how can he win a 1v1? At best it's a never ending fight. Ele bunker is slightly better but a good player should not loose 1v1 on him. Well that is my experience as a ranger.

Are we talking about bunker or 1v1? for me it's not the same thing.
Anyways, thanks for the Xsorus tip, he community is so low that i have trouble to find good income on ranger, i will check what he has done with pleasure.

EDIT : doh! Xsorus is this Pain inverter ranger. Well, did not find any tpvp videos from him.

Regarding your regen trp build, i just described my version in the other thread, saying that it is good. It's good but nothing to complain about.

Edited by Tempo, 28 January 2013 - 06:47 PM.


#10 Xsorus

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 06:05 PM

I dislike Shortbow, I still feel our other weapons are vastly superior to it.

Harpoon Gun is similar to Shortbow and it even has the bleed as an anytime and I still feel it blows also...

I always found SB to be a better Power/Crit weapon then a condition based weapon...

#11 Rouzeki

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 06:13 PM

Haven't played in awhile but I predicted that as soon as rangers weren't a free kill they would become FOTM.  Sounds about right OP.

#12 Norseman

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 06:27 PM

All I know is when I see a ranger alone, I start chomping at the bit because it's an easy kill...unless underwater of course.

#13 JROH

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 06:49 PM

View PostTempo, on 28 January 2013 - 05:48 PM, said:

Sorry if i were a bit rude in my answer, that was the surprise. I know you main a ranger and i know that you are one of the few here that can have a valid discussion. So glad to exchange my point of view with you. And i main an ranger too.

The thread is about SB, at least the questioon of the first poster. So i answered with SB in mind, only SB. Axe dagger and sword torch are another story and more powerfull than SB imo. I think we agree on that.

I don't agree with you saying that a bunker shouldn't be considered a bunker if it can't win a 1V1. A guardian bunker deals no damage, how can he win a 1v1? At best it's a never ending fight. Ele bunker is slightly better but a good player should not loose 1v1 on him. Well that is my experience as a ranger.

Are we talking about bunker or 1v1? for me it's not the same thing.
Anyways, thanks for the Xsorus tip, he community is so low that i have trouble to find good income on ranger, i will check what he has done with pleasure.

Regarding your regen trp build, i just described my version in the other thread, saying that it is good. It's good but nothing to complain about.

That makes sense, sorry if I sounded irritated. If anything, I just felt misunderstood in the sense that I felt as if I was being made out as to be something other than a ranger advocate.
Also, I probably have my definitions wrong, so that is my fault. I was using bunker and survival build synonymously, because in my head I was defining point holder as bunker and bunker as survival build.
In which case ranger survival build, I believe, is very powerful in the sense that it operates very similarly to the P/D thief build, with lots of healing and ability to mitigate damage (thief stealth versus ranger dodge).

So, with my thoughts on the shortbow. I would say that I have seen lots of people are running it like a standard berserker setup, which can be irritating and fairly effective because what the shortbow doesn't have in high damage it makes up for by refire rate (and has the ability to outdamage the thief shortbow because it attacks twice as fast and 2*3xx(damage coefficient of ranger shortbow in a berserker build) is stronger than 1*5xx, especially with the idea that the more attacks there are, the more chances to crit, so more damage. Which goes along with what Xsorus just mentioned above.

However, I don't believe this to be the strength of the shortbow. The shortbow truly shines with a Carrion Amulet setup, and then building for power, and even crit after that. Hitting about 400 damage per arrow plus another 100 from bleeding. With the fastest attacking weapon at it's range (1200 range) is pretty powerful. If you build for some crit on top of that and take the bleeding trait, let's go with 20% crit chance, it means that if the bleed procs, you have just increased your damage output by 25% of the direct damage (you hit them in the front for 400+100 bleed damage).

Given that you sacrifice lots of defensive capabilities, but the Carrion amulets added vitality lets you sponge a little and dish out damage at the same time. Basically, I find the shortbow to be best in a power/condition hybrid build.

View PostNorseman, on 28 January 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:

All I know is when I see a ranger alone, I start chomping at the bit because it's an easy kill...unless underwater of course.

Guess you've never played against a good ranger. There are quite a few out there. I guess I could include myself, but I don't have the mindset that I'm great. Still, I've played about 800 matches as a ranger in spvp alone, and I'd wager that there are people who play much more actively than me, who would love to show you how not an easy kill rangers can be.

#14 Tempo

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 07:38 PM

I'm so glad to see that someone mention that SB is made for carrion amulet. This is so true and there are so few players that have seen it. Our community is so quiet... I recently felft in love with axe dagger and sword torch so that SB and traps are away from me, but men, i'm glad to see that I am not alone to try to understand the mechanics behind the class with half a brain.

#15 Speno

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 08:26 PM

Personally on the ranger I main I don't spvp that much but I do wvw constantly. I usually play the scout/roamer position.  I find sb axe/horn trap build 0/30/30/0/10 very strong still. I stack condition damage with full aidans armor, carrion jewels, corruption in the bow. The amount of mobility with dots you can run is very good. I think power sb builds are still subpar right now. I still dont think we have a fotm build better then some of the other classes. Once we are on par with theifs and warriors it'll be different (yes I have both classes to 80 full exotics and play both). Either way ranger is more of a class that you need to think ahead and play smart not just mindless button smashing.

#16 JROH

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:51 PM

View PostSpeno, on 28 January 2013 - 08:26 PM, said:

Personally on the ranger I main I don't spvp that much but I do wvw constantly. I usually play the scout/roamer position.  I find sb axe/horn trap build 0/30/30/0/10 very strong still. I stack condition damage with full aidans armor, carrion jewels, corruption in the bow. The amount of mobility with dots you can run is very good. I think power sb builds are still subpar right now. I still dont think we have a fotm build better then some of the other classes. Once we are on par with theifs and warriors it'll be different (yes I have both classes to 80 full exotics and play both). Either way ranger is more of a class that you need to think ahead and play smart not just mindless button smashing.

I don't mean to nitpick or derail, but I find that warriors are the most balanced class in the game. Not metagame wise or in practice, but really what the devs were striving for in terms of viability and options. They can build for any type of damage output or support to an effective degree, and the only reason they don't seem balanced is because the other classes actually need to be brought up to par with that level (and maybe a reduction on killshot damage so I stop hearing people complain about 20k killshots lol).
As far as thieves go, my problem will be and will probably forever be Heartseeker. Not problem in that I can't deal with it, but problem in the sense that there is no skilled gameplay to it whatsoever. You can literally watch people hit 2 until all their initiative is gone, then stealth, try to backstab, then hit 2 until it's all gone again, rinse and repeat. My issue with it is that it works and there is no downside to it whatsoever.
What I would like to see, I have numerous ideas:
1) add a larger aftercast to heartseeker, the same what ranger shortbow got a 40ms delay. If spamming autoattack doesn't make for fun gameplay, why not nerf everything spammable to an effective degree with that mentality?
2) add a damage reduction to hitting targets with multiple backstabs within the same timespan (the same way there is a stealth debuff). For each consequent heartseeker that lands before 1s has passed, damage gets reduced by 10%. That should hopefully force some sort of more tactical instances as to when to hit 2, as opposed to how hitting 2 repeatedly can be used effectively as a constant strategy for every situation.
3) only make the bonus damage effective after the lowest health pool bonus is reached. As in, nerf the damage that it does within the two higher brackets, and leave the high damage for the lowest bracket. Hopefully that would force some more tactical usage of the skill

Anywho, now that I'm done derailing, back ontopic:

View PostTempo, on 28 January 2013 - 07:38 PM, said:

I'm so glad to see that someone mention that SB is made for carrion amulet. This is so true and there are so few players that have seen it. Our community is so quiet... I recently felft in love with axe dagger and sword torch so that SB and traps are away from me, but men, i'm glad to see that I am not alone to try to understand the mechanics behind the class with half a brain.

Yeah, I'm not really sure why people think that every class receives it's best benefit from running high power/crit on every weapon in every build. The only reason the shortbow is even being used as a power/crit weapon is because the longbow needs some tuning (I would personally say mostly speed adjustments, because hitting somebody 5 times in the time they hit me 20 is ridiculous, especially when I can hit them 14 times before the 5 the longbow hits with any other weapon, and the longbow damage doesn't equal out to those 14 hits. That's like, the definition of not being balanced, and pigeonholes people into choosing weapons based on performance and not preference, so that for lots of classes in the game, weapons available just aren't used).
What I don't understand is when people build for crits with no power on ranger shortbow. Prime example is rabid amulet shortbow with the bleed trait versus carrion amulet shortbow with no bleed trait. Rabid does about 2xx damage with 3xx-4xx crits and procs bleeds that do an extra 100 damage. Carrion does 3xx constantly, and then you still get the flanking bleeds. If you graphed them damage spreads over time with an assumed 50% crit rate versus 4%, the damages are almost exactly identical. The only time the rabid does more damage is when the crits are landing and the bleeds are proccing on those crits. Basically (with random numbers), you can sometimes do 25, but sometimes do 75, or you can just do a constant 50 all the time.
If rangers had more things that procced on crit, crit build for the shortbow might be more useful. But overall unless you are pigeonholing yourself into an autoattacking turret with a berserkers amulet, there is really no use in building precision over power, which is a common misconception in the ranger community, at least with the shortbow.
However, looking at the traits alone, it seems fairly obvious to me that the axe is a powerful crit weapon.

#17 Tempo

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 11:51 PM

Axe is a good power/crit weapon, it shines versus 2 ennemies because of the bounce. Your target will take double damage if his teamate is near him. The problem is that other skills of the axe does not benefit that much from power/crit and that a ranger in Zerker stuff is insanely squishy. Well, more squishy than a 100b warrior without the burst, and as squishy as a thief with no stealth mechanics and no backstab/heartseeker. Zerker is basically bad, the only thing that make it viable are overpowered burst moves like 100b, backstab, shatter. Well that is just my opinion though.

Oh, did i forgot offhand axe? the whirlwind that can not move is absolutly ridiculous..And path of scars does not add that much damage so..

Edited by Tempo, 28 January 2013 - 11:54 PM.


#18 JROH

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 12:06 AM

I meant more along the lines of axe with rabid amulet, and then building some more power with runes. I'll give more of an example: http://gw2skills.net...noQygkAJLSOkkIB

Granted I threw it together as more of an example than a working build, but the synergy should be noted. I just meant that as opposed to people running crit/condition shortbow builds, axe builds are stronger and are going to output more damage in this scenario, especially when coupled with the torch for burning.

#19 TenorMadness

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 05:06 AM

View PostSpeno, on 28 January 2013 - 08:26 PM, said:

Personally on the ranger I main I don't spvp that much but I do wvw constantly. I usually play the scout/roamer position.  I find sb axe/horn trap build 0/30/30/0/10 very strong still. I stack condition damage with full aidans armor, carrion jewels, corruption in the bow. The amount of mobility with dots you can run is very good. I think power sb builds are still subpar right now. I still dont think we have a fotm build better then some of the other classes. Once we are on par with theifs and warriors it'll be different (yes I have both classes to 80 full exotics and play both). Either way ranger is more of a class that you need to think ahead and play smart not just mindless button smashing.

Not exactly on topic, but I've been looking for a sb/trap build. Could you detail yours? What runes are you using?

#20 lollasaurus

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 05:16 AM

Every game I've played Ranger gameplay involves the usual stale kiting.  I really like playing ranger now and then but it does get boring quick.

#21 Speno

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 02:31 PM

View PostTenorMadness, on 29 January 2013 - 05:06 AM, said:

Not exactly on topic, but I've been looking for a sb/trap build. Could you detail yours? What runes are you using?

As soon as I get home today I will PM you what I am running with what gear.

#22 jeddahwe

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 03:11 PM

View PostTenorMadness, on 29 January 2013 - 05:06 AM, said:

Not exactly on topic, but I've been looking for a sb/trap build. Could you detail yours? What runes are you using?

http://intothemists....0b;17V-17V-18Rl


Edited by jeddahwe, 30 January 2013 - 05:06 PM.


#23 Tempo

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 03:28 PM

SB / trap without condi damage stuff? surprising.

#24 jeddahwe

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 05:06 PM

View PostTempo, on 30 January 2013 - 03:28 PM, said:

SB / trap without condi damage stuff? surprising.

https://forum-en.gui...rst#post1284180

"Sol Karlesi   5 days ago

Hi, I use 0/20/30/5/15. I only have 300 condition damage, I use the traps for the cc and flame trap does around 400 damage a tick.
Which works for me as I'm only using it as combo field and help counter bunker builds with there stupid regen. Most of the damage from my traps comes from my power/precision off its base damage and not he condition damage."

Edit:  Its written by Sol not me!

Edited by jeddahwe, 30 January 2013 - 05:09 PM.


#25 JROH

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 08:22 PM

View Postjeddahwe, on 30 January 2013 - 05:06 PM, said:

https://forum-en.gui...rst#post1284180

"Sol Karlesi   5 days ago

Hi, I use 0/20/30/5/15. I only have 300 condition damage, I use the traps for the cc and flame trap does around 400 damage a tick.
Which works for me as I'm only using it as combo field and help counter bunker builds with there stupid regen. Most of the damage from my traps comes from my power/precision off its base damage and not he condition damage."

Edit:  Its written by Sol not me!

While I understand all of his reasoning, the build is built around the benefits of the food he is using, and loses a degree of effectiveness in spvp. Not saying that it isn't effective at all. But the crit chance isn't really even possible to reach the way he has when doing spvp.
However, the person you responded to never specified where it is being used, so it is answered well. I have a slightly new setup that I think may deserve its own thread when the time comes. For now I'll just say this, the necklace choices we all have been making are not always the best ones available, and there is one in particular that is effective across a wide variety of ranger builds. What I am doing now is confirming its effectiveness a bit more extensively so I don't personally feel as though I've only run it with one build and said its good. I'm going to run it with the two most common ranger builds (BM healing and trapper) and see how it goes. It is definitely confirmed for the 0/0/30/10/30 though.




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