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Coin Flow and Broken Promises.

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#1 Butcher

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 08:06 PM

TL;DR section at the bottom. If you have any questions, read the whole post. If you have more questions, please reply.

As a disclaimer: I've been playing this game since release, I'm level 80, and I'm decked out in full exotics with the armor skins of my choice. All of which were bought with gems and some money I've obtained from running CoF P1. Now then, let's get started.

It's absolutely no mystery that this game has delivered many empty promises, but the ones I want to focus on today are the "no grind philosophy", "play your way" and how they effect players on the PvE level of the game. Let me begin by saying that you will be grinding, and you will not be able to play the way you want to so long as you wish to progress in this game. As with many MMOs the main fun factor is the amount of joy a player experiences as they progress their characters in level, and power. Leveling isn't a problem. It's actually pretty fun as long as you avoid the jumping puzzles that interfere with GW2's terrible camera angles. After 80 though, what should one do? Many resort to gear progression or move onto another game. And here's the woe: gear progression.

There are many ways to progress in this game after 80. Here's the list I've come up with.
  • Run CoF P1 over and over again for a little over 1g per pass.
  • Somehow become a TP wizard and manipulate the market in order to turn 20%+ profits.
  • Spend coin on a magic find set of gear then run Orr events and dungeons with it for a slight chance of getting profitable loot/exotics.
  • Buy gems and trade them for gold.
All of these things have one thing in common: they don't get you out in the world at all. They don't compel you to explore Tyria, and they aren't very fun for some, and are impossible for many casual players. I dare say this game was made for casual players, but has not shown much to prove that.

In my time playing this game, I've spent over 100 USD on gems to get the gear I want. The reason why? I don't have the time, to run CoF over and over again, nor do I have in-game-made gold to create an MF set. I know a lot of people facing the same dilemma on my server as well as most people in my guild. This brings me back to the "play your way" philosophy. I like to RP, and explore the world. Yet, exploring the world yields little to none in coin or Kharma rewards. That's a problem. At the end of the day I should have been sitting on a good 15g after hitting level 80, even with spending money on gear upgrades in the TP, repairs, travel costs, and buying manuals from my trainer. Instead, I ended up with 3g. That's bogus.

Oh, and that Kharma thing they put in the game. Yes, it's useless for the most part. Aside from using it to buy produce, race weapons and Orrian gear, it's a failed currency. I don't think it's necessary for me to go too deep into Kharma, because it really is useless. Currently I'm sitting on over 100k of it with nothing to spend it on.

I really don't want to get into the issue of the TP, other than it's completely controlled by day one tycoons, and some gold selling companies. Seriously, who wants to spend over 200 USD on a single legendary item? To this day I don't have a legendary, and I have no desire to get one simply for the fact of how much it disgusts me that a small amount of the player-base has manipulated the TP in order to make it nearly impossible to get a legendary at a reasonably decent price. What disgusts me even more is how ANet decided to make legendaries a  painful grind item rather than making them profession specific items that one can only acquire through a tedious storyline (like EQ or the Paladin mount in WoW). Simply put: ANet decided to put the power of the economy in the players hands, compounded the TP to span all servers within a region, and look what happened.

Now let's take a look at crafting. Here we have a system in the game that allows every player access to every crafting profession, and the ability to gather every kind of crafting component in spite of a players current crafting professions learned. Honestly, it's a mostly broken system in this game, but that's best saved for a different topic, because it's a very long one. I'll just say it effects the economy, and not in a good way.

Here's another thing that really bugs me out: the gem store. There's simply not enough to buy in the damn thing. After level 80, most of the items are pretty useless, other than services, dye packs, keys and boosters. The cosmetic gear options are pretty lame too. I've rarely spent any gems on stuff in the gem store. I've only really converted gems, because that's the only way to make use of them fully. Oh and BTW, how about they give a Divines be damned coin booster!? Nvm, that'll never happen, but a man can hope.

-------------------------------------

Alright then, I'm going to move along now and get to the TL;DR part of this post. Here are my very few and very reasonable ways to fix this game in a way where players will be happy, and ANet will still make tons of money off of the gem store (since that seems to be the only thing they care about, or at least Nexon). Here it is!
  • Put every kind of legendary item and dungeon rewards in the gem store for a set amount of gems that will fluctuate with the gem market over time as the conversion amount goes up or down.
  • Balance dungeon rewards
  • Increase world event profits
  • Decrease legendary precursor RNG
  • Decrease component requirements for many items within the crafts.
  • Coin booster in the gem store, please.
  • Finally implement a player to player trading system.
That's all, really. Thank you for reading, and I'll be looking forward to constructive feedback. Zealous fan boys, go eat your heart out.

#2 MisterB

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 08:29 PM

Selling equipment directly in the store was one of the things they said they did not want to do. So legendaries, dungeon gear, and things of that nature are unlikely to appear in the gem store.
The trading post and mail are intended to diminish RMT and scams, and they have no intention of adding direct player trading.

Crafting needs more recipes and possibly more ingredients added so it can be viable to obtain more of the combinations that exist. Fractal bags also makes crafting 20 slots an obviously inferior choice.

#3 Desild

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 08:32 PM

Don't say too loud that ArenaNet had some sort of "verbal contract", a promise as you said, with us the Players. People might jump on you and linch you for bad mouthing. I can hear them mobbing up as I type this.

I can relate with what you are saying, but I simply don't agree with some, even, any of your solutions. Here's a few of my own.
  • Dungeon Armor/Weapons should be crafted, plain and simple. With the tokens we obtain from the dungeon, no less.
  • Heart Quests should be repeatable and reward you with mats daily. Mats which rarity depends on the zone.
  • Rare Items should be the standard drop in one in every five monsters we loot in a dungeon. With special skins to boot.
  • Maybe add Rare Materials to the Laurel trader or something?

I go out of my way to climb a landmark for an Orrian Chest, and my reward was a plain, blue, greatsword. With a skin identical to one you could loot from a Level 3 mob. Where is the justice in that? I swear I remember opening chests in Guild Wars 1, and actually genuinly cool skins would drop ever so often. But back then the problem was that I couldn't "transmute" them, meaning some of them would become vendor trash (like an  imperfect purple req 7 Gothic Sword). Now in Guild Wars 2 I have the ability to transfer stats and looks at a whim, but all my vendor loot has crappy and plain skins. Where's the justice in that?

Edited by Desild, 28 January 2013 - 08:39 PM.


#4 Jetjordan

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 08:37 PM

I play my way, and I don't grind

also working steadily towards a legendary and I only do the things I find fun.  

I played GW1 for years and years, I guess I'm just not in a rush to have uber leet stuff.

#5 Myugen

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 08:40 PM

Yeah, no, gem store should not sell ANYTHING directly. The laurels might be an interesting currency that fixes some of the gear grind, but aside from that, it's not that big a deal to get anything in the game except for ascension and legendaries. Both which have been stated to be "difficult to obtain" and not just simply handed to you. I myself stick with around 100g, have 5 characters in full exotics 80, and have not farmed anything for the past month, nor dedicated myself to make money, yet I have never gone below 100, and when I go above 125, I buy things to drop it down. Just by playing the game, you make money.

Kinda liked Desild's idea of hearts being repeatable and giving tier mats. I think t6 mats are one of the reasons this is starting to feel like a grind, everything ascension+ requires like 100, which is hefty, expensive, or takes huge chunks of time to farm.

#6 Gerroh

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 08:55 PM

View PostButcher, on 28 January 2013 - 08:06 PM, said:

  • Put every kind of legendary item and dungeon rewards in the gem store for a set amount of gems that will fluctuate with the gem market over time as the conversion amount goes up or down.
  • Balance dungeon rewards
  • Increase world event profits
  • Decrease legendary precursor RNG
  • Decrease component requirements for many items within the crafts.
  • Coin booster in the gem store, please.
  • Finally implement a player to player trading system.
1) You want dungeon crap for money 'cause you don't have the time to bother? lolno. Cosmetics in GW2 (for the most part) are worked for.
2) The economy balances the rewards. I can't be bothered to read your whole post, I skimmed over some parts, but your tl;dr portion isn't convincing me of anything. The economy will balance rewards, in that if you increase the rewards, the value of the items from those rewards will drop and the price of everything else will go up.
3) Don't understand why, don't think precursors need an adjustment, tbh.
4) Nope.
5) There is a coin booster, it's called trading gems for gold.
6) Probably not going to happen for the reasons Desild gave.


View PostDesild, on 28 January 2013 - 08:32 PM, said:

I can relate with what you are saying, but I simply don't agree with some, even, any of your solutions. Here's a few of my own.
  • Dungeon Armor/Weapons should be crafted, plain and simple. With the tokens we obtain from the dungeon, no less.
  • Heart Quests should be repeatable and reward you with mats daily. Mats which rarity depends on the zone.
  • Rare Items should be the standard drop in one in every five monsters we loot in a dungeon. With special skins to boot.
  • Maybe add Rare Materials to the Laurel trader or something?
1) What. Why? So they can be more of a hassle?
2) Why? Every heart task(as far as I know) has events tied to it, and you can repeat those. I don't see any reason to make the comparatively boring tasks associated with heart tasks to be repeatable.
3) No. Absolutely not. If you make rare drops happen that often, they'll all be worth the merch value on the TP. I know you're thinking "So I can make more money!" But remember that the market works on supply and demand, and by inflating the supply that much you'll destroy the market, it'll take at least a month to recover from this transition, and rares and ectos will be worth nothing, which will also considerably drop the value of the things that use ectos in their crafting process.
4) I think the idea with laurels is that they're like karma, in that they give you a reward, not something to turn into cash. This would also probably drop the prices of rare materials quite a bit and damage the economy.


View PostJetjordan, on 28 January 2013 - 08:37 PM, said:

I play my way, and I don't grind

also working steadily towards a legendary and I only do the things I find fun.  

I played GW1 for years and years, I guess I'm just not in a rush to have uber leet stuff.

↑More people need this mentality.

#7 Tregarde

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 09:08 PM

Rather than go point by point, I'll just sum my feelings up in a couple sentances.

But really, I've gotten "further" in five months in GW2 for my characters than I did over five years in EverQuest 2. And I'm not a hard-core player.

Yeah, there's more of a grind than we were expecting. But it's not anywhere near as bad as in many other games.

Many of the changes proposed in the OP would make acquiring some things TOO easy. I don't mind putting in a little effort to earn something, just as long as it's not so much effort that it becomes a second job. Sure, there are some things that could use tweaking, but overall I think GW2 has hit a good balance between effort and reward.

#8 Jetjordan

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 09:09 PM

View PostGerroh, on 28 January 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

crap I said

↑More people need this mentality.

I know right?  its a game, if it doesn't make you happy you should try thinking about it differently or quit and do something productive instead.

#9 Butcher

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 01:36 PM

There's plenty of stuff in the game that I find enjoyable, and sure, some of my suggestions might seem really crappy. But I just threw them out there. However, you're all a bunch of fools if you can honestly sit back and tell me that there's nothing wrong with the game at all, but instead I'm wrong.

You're telling me that much of the gear has been labeled as "difficult to obtain", no, that's not true. Everything in this game is easy to get, all you have to do is buy gems, LOTS OF GEMS, and you can have everything in one day. So don't pull that crap card on me, you're wrong. I "grind" in real life for my money, I work for it hard. With GW2 you have to play the IRL game first before you can really get anything the game. That's just how it feels. I don't have a problem with ANet wanting us to buy gems, but I don't like feeling like there's extra incentive to because they *ed up the economical design. The design was flawed even before the first item ever was put up in the TP, and it will probably remain that way.

The problem, as I've stated, is the lack of options to make in-game money and get gear. This is true, you know it, I'm right, you simply can't refute the evidence. However, if you want to put your ear muffs and blinders on, then be my guest. I'm actually glad you're having more fun than me. I wish I could do the same thing, but when I see a problem with something, like a man, I address it and try to think of ways to fix it.

#10 beadnbutter32

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 02:18 PM

Wow big discovery.   Welcome to asian cash shop grind.  It's not going to change, it is only going to get worse.  That is simply how asian grinders work.  Two weeks can't go by without the introduction of some new in game scheme that boils down to more grind or get out the credit card.

You either buy into this, leave, or do your best to ignore it and find what fun you can.

#11 Fenice_86

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 02:51 PM

GW2 is for casual as long as you wont play the top_contents as a casual.

#12 Rukioish

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 03:54 PM

right now Kudzu on my server is worth about 1800 USD in gold. If they put legendaries in the gem store, they'd either have to be either priced with the gold market in mind or it will completely obliterate the gold market and make it a useless currency.

Edited by Rukioish, 29 January 2013 - 03:54 PM.


#13 Butcher

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 05:24 PM

I agree completely with the last three posts. For the most part, they're sensible. And this is the reason why I suggested ANet put all end game gear in the gem store.

They originally said that this game would eliminate the grind other MMO's have in place. It's actually funny, though, because this game has a much worse (and more boring) grind than other popular subscription based MMOs such as WoW, Rift and Tera. It's literally harder to get gear in this "casual" MMO than ones you would have to pay 15 a month for. Also, most people who get frustrated with the ridiculous grind this MMO offers will end up paying more than a standard subscription fee for progression items.

Honestly, they might as well rename this game DDO or Talisman Online. OR!!! .....

they could put end game items in the gem store.

My Advice: Hit 80, then go back to WoW, Rift, or whatever else you were playing before. Otherwise, you'll make the same mistake I did and sink time or IRL money into gear progression.

Edited by Butcher, 29 January 2013 - 05:26 PM.


#14 Mura

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 07:25 PM

The way I see it, this game has no necessary gear grind because gear is more or less comparable where it matters - in player killing.

spvp is clearly equal.  wvw, it's not that difficult to be about equal.  There are many ways to attain exotic armor for your level 80 character, and if you have that, you're on a pretty level playing field with most everyone else in wvw.  The gear that is superior to exotic is only marginally better.  This makes me very happy as a pvp player.

Regarding pve, in my current exotic gear, I can do any dungeon, and the lower level fractals.  I don't mind that having better gear with Ascended items is required for doing high level fractals, that makes it a fun challenge, and puts the burden on me to be prepared for those higher level dungeons.  This is the kind of progression I can enjoy.

I've spent $40 on gems so far, and that was to help buy my precursor, acquire the high level salvage kits, and a karma booster.  I personally don't have a problem with the coin flow in this game.

#15 Horu

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 03:02 AM

View PostJetjordan, on 28 January 2013 - 08:37 PM, said:

I play my way, and I don't grind

also working steadily towards a legendary and I only do the things I find fun.  

I played GW1 for years and years, I guess I'm just not in a rush to have uber leet stuff.

That's something people are not really used to... :/
I wish more people played the game slowly and enjoying everything. One thing I remember reading about GW2 before its release, was that this game was meant to be played through, not rushed.

Btw, gear on the cash shop? Please don't. Maybe the skins, but the actual gear with full stats, nope.

Edited by Horu, 30 January 2013 - 03:03 AM.


#16 RyuuAkari

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 03:32 AM

View PostHoru, on 30 January 2013 - 03:02 AM, said:

That's something people are not really used to... :/
I wish more people played the game slowly and enjoying everything. One thing I remember reading about GW2 before its release, was that this game was meant to be played through, not rushed.

Btw, gear on the cash shop? Please don't. Maybe the skins, but the actual gear with full stats, nope.

I couldn't agree more on this, then anything else in the world. In all kind of MMORPG we look for progression now how the progression is done is either the rush your way to the end gear or take your time relax you're going to get it in the end. MMORPG also were suppose to mean spend time on it and see the reward coming. I understand doing dungeon patterns over and over becomes boring after awhile since it all feels so repetitive, but trust me you have crafting if you're not interested in dungeon tokens. Eventually after the 28th update the orr karma vendor offer entire exotic set of accessory now for 42k karma each making it worth while grinding up to ascended gear. But as said earlier its the amount of time you want to spend on the game that yield the result of you're character. Sure you can go to a gold buying site and buy tons of gears, but is it really worth it when you can survive most dungeon in just rare gears?

Beside selling stats gear on cash shop worry me. In their FAQ about cash shop I remember Mike O'Brien saying that gem store will purely sell cosmetic stuff. Cause as soon you being selling stuff with stats you'll make a HUGE difference between the people that play with just casual gear, and people with cash gem gear.

Also with the new laurel system added you can save up those token and buy gear for you're token. Simple.

Time invested on game = you're character outcome.
Rush everything with gem store = you're character outcome. (I don't personally see why use gem when getting gears through dungeon or crafting is so much easier is just investing TIME).

And in my opinion MMORPG is a game that is suppose to be time invested. That's what its design is all about. Otherwise it could be Mario 64, that bad ass RPG game where you can just turn off whenever you want, cause it all saves on each map you've cleared...

Edited by RyuuAkari, 30 January 2013 - 03:40 AM.


#17 Osiris Neits

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 03:48 AM

View PostButcher, on 29 January 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:

And this is the reason why I suggested ANet put all end game gear in the gem store.

My Advice: Hit 80, then go back to WoW, Rift, or whatever else you were playing before. Otherwise, you'll make the same mistake I did and sink time or IRL money into gear progression.

So, your solution to the money that you spent in the gem store, to buy gear, is for them to put gear you can buy in the gem store.

Makes perfect sense to me.

Butcher said:

It's actually pretty fun as long as you avoid the jumping puzzles that interfere with GW2's terrible camera angles.

I always lol when I read this kind of stuff. The only thing I dislike about jumping puzzles is that I don't have any new ones to do.

#18 Testud0

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 02:19 PM

Naw dudes you're doing something wrong if you have gear grind. I level my characters from 35 to 80 in dungeons and I get so many tokens that I have full exotics on my characters by the time they're max level.

#19 Jetjordan

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 12:16 PM

Sidenote:  If people spent as much time playing and doing fun stuff in GW2 that they do on the forums complaining, they would have significantly more/better stuff.





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