126 replies to this topic

[d_fens]

Yes, saying that dungeons are meant for organized guild groups and not PUGs is just retarded. Believe it or not, PUGs are majority of groups in all MMOs. Locking them out would be a very dumb move on ANet's side.

[AzureRogue]

Really?  PUGs do high end raids in other MMOs more than, say, groups of organized players who run content together often?  News to me.

EDIT: I also don't think people are saying that a group of 5 people who have never played together before shouldn't be able to complete a dungeon.  But it might take multiple tries.  It also takes communication (something that is often SEVERELY lacking in PUGs).  If people are willing to discuss strategies before charging into a dungeon (which seems incredibly appropriate and actually kind of fun, but rarely happens) then sure I think PUGs could do an dungeon pretty well.

If you're looking for an experience where you can just join a party and easily zerg through enemies, go to Cursed Shore.  If you want an organized party experience where people actually need to work together then go to dungeons.  What I'm arguing is not that dungeons should never be done by PUGs.  I'm instead arguing that current prevailing attitude/communication in most PUGs is not (and should not be) enough to get you through high end content.

People made the counter argument that new players would never learn the game if this is the case (or at least high end stuff).  I responded by saying that there ARE players willing to take new players in PUGs (and as increases in communication are required, if that happens, then it will be even less work to integrate a new player relative to an old player).  Failing that, players can join guilds where fellow members are often EAGER to help new members get used to dungeons (if only so they have more people to take later).

Edited by AzureRogue, 08 February 2013 - 05:30 PM.

[verskore]

tfckmk988, on 29 January 2013 - 05:43 PM, said:

Someone said this was fixed earlier in the thread i have quoted it below and please read threads completely before replying it makes you seem like an idiot

yes, so i've noticed, sorry for that. cant see why not readin a whole post makes you seem like an idiot :s posting such comments are a bit sad rlly...

[Omedon]

Eliirae, on 08 February 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

Are people in this thread honestly saying that dungeons aren't meant to be done with random people?  because the point of MMOs is to play with random people.

And in GW2, they do that in the outer world.  Not (ideally) in explorables.  The model for explorables was always communication and co-ordination necessary.  If you equate "random people" with "don't need to communicate or co-ordinate," then no, explorable dungeons are not "random people" content in that context, never have been, and never will be if the vision remains intact.  There was a period when the loophole of rez-rushing existed, and it has been closed.

d_fens, on 08 February 2013 - 08:02 AM, said:

Yes, saying that dungeons are meant for organized guild groups and not PUGs is just retarded. Believe it or not, PUGs are majority of groups in all MMOs. Locking them out would be a very dumb move on ANet's side.

And the full spectrum of explorable dungeons have never been "majority content."  Speaking as part of the majority, (that won't complete them all) this was always apparent to me, and I'm fine with that. It's a corner, an extreme apex of the game for an extreme apex of players.  We're not lesser beings for not being in that apex, just different, with different priorities.

verskore, on 08 February 2013 - 07:20 PM, said:

cant see why not readin a whole post makes you seem like an idiot

It doesn't, to sane people.  Sane people don't think we're entitled to your reading time.  Don't listen to the crazy folks that say otherwise.

Edited by Omedon, 09 February 2013 - 06:39 AM.

[WrathfulForce]

I don't think there'll ever be content that cannot be done with a pug. Look at guild wars 1 and its "elite areas" such as Domain of Anguish and Underworld. Those areas were, without a doubt, very challenging and require rather precise builds and teamwork. However, despite the fact that I was mostly a solo player in gw1 I had no trouble finding a pug to complete those areas with. The challenging content just required the players to do some research and learn different roles so they knew what to do in those areas.

What pugs usually lack is proper communication and coordination but to my experience good players can do their part in a group even if they aren't communicating via voice. An organized group that uses voice chat and so on will naturally perform much better, no question about it, but I personally don't have that bad impressions of pugs (even though I have been in few horrible pugs that failed miserably) but maybe that's just me.

But back to the topic. I'd expect to see something like "no waypoints/no ressing besides players ressing other players" type of mechanics in the future in a form of "hard mode" or something like that. This'd make dungeons much harder as a single wipe would mean a proper defeat.

I am up for that. But I think that the current system can stay as it is; just add an additional challenge mode for those that want it (with extra rewards and so on). After all, the game has been super casual friendly and this kind of solution suit everyone in my opinion (not saying there shouldn't be other changes to additional dungeon difficulties as well, as there should be imo, just wanted to express my opinion on resurrecting in dungeons).

[FoxBat]

Eliirae, on 08 February 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

If games are now getting to the point where it's soo challenging to do anything without a hardcore raiding guild that sits in ventrillo all day, then why not block off every single person not in a game from playing your game instead of letting them in only to tell them they aren't allowed to play with other people?

Because dungeons are less than 10% of content.

This wouldn't be a problem if they weren't giving like 90% of the money. (Well, orr farming isn't so bad there, but otherwise...)

[beadnbutter32]

cheezewiz, on 29 January 2013 - 02:36 AM, said:

this is a lot better. Im pretty sure every class has an instant revive skill.

No, every class does not have an instant bring them back from the dead skill.  A few have skills that help if your healing a downed team mate, but not a dead one which is what this topic is about.

Anet expects this to motivate players to flood the TP with revive orb orders. The house wins, players lose.  This is a classic Asian Cash Shop Grinder (ACSG) meme; give players little to no ability to bring back dead players, and sell consumables in the cash shop to fill that need.  Most likely Anet had this planned from day one. Get players hooked on Dungeons as about the only way to 'earn' gold with easy waypoint revives, then pull it, leaving revive orbs as the only alternative.

Edited by beadnbutter32, 09 February 2013 - 02:52 PM.