126 replies to this topic

[Lucas Ashrock]

Don't waste your time asking gear check links. Everyone can fake it with gw2db

[OneMoreLevel]

Rough learning curve, but I wasn't doing dungeons in the first place, so meh.

[Omedon]

Lucas Ashrock, on 29 January 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

Don't waste your time asking gear check links.

This is just generally good advice in the context of GW2 dungeons, as the individual is just as empowered to say "gear check?  Lol next!"  as there are no "less popular" roles (tank/heal) that singlehandedly half-complete a group formation.

Play nice, make friends, prepare to be civil and buckle down to "learn and burn" as a true team.

Or, you know, put your name out amongst the community to form or join an actual long-term, proper team if you really want the look out of X dungeon.  Team content requires teams, not just groups.

[Arenion]

Omedon, on 29 January 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

PUGs have never been intended for this content, or we'd have a "proper" dungeon finder, which you'll note GW2 is heavily resisting even considering.  GW2 dungeons are team content, not simply group content.  Teams know and are personally invested in each other before the dungeon.  Because of this, teams like each other.  Teams are committed to "learn and burn" over time, time and again, laugh off wipes, and are willing to come back tomorrow, or next week.  

I don't have a team (well... not one that cares about dungeons), therefore this isn't my content  and I'm fine with that, because I "get it," and have since before launch.

Perhaps some of you need to say something like this in the mirror, and re-allocate your content preferences, because there's tons to do in GW2.

Yeah,doesn't bother you i guess,but having 4 80's with full exotics,i don't having anything else to do other than dungeons and a bit of exploration/daily's.

If i'll have bad luck getting a guild(which ruins my whole preference of going off on on as i please with having zero obligations) I like and is active enough,I won't be able to enjoy at least 50% of my end-game content.... then I can just stop playing the game(other than that 1 week when there is new a update ._.)

You can't just say oh L2P and get a team if this is the end-content for most 80's.

Edited by Arenion, 29 January 2013 - 02:40 PM.

[Omedon]

Arenion, on 29 January 2013 - 02:38 PM, said:

Yeah,doesn't bother you i guess,but having 4 80's with full exotics,i don't having anything else to do other than dungeons and a bit of exploration/daily's.

You could.... Go outside?

[Arenion]

Omedon, on 29 January 2013 - 02:41 PM, said:

You could.... Go outside?

Go outside each evening every day,yeah seems legit(especially since i live 1 hour ride from any from of civilization ).

Anyway i'll see how PUG's will go today,if i get only bad groups in a row,i'll probably get a guild,otherwise i'm fine(though i won't be doing arah anytime soon )

[Sans]

Bosses were never intended to be rushed nonstop.
Content was never intended to be skipped by rushing through it.

I like this addition to dungeons.

(I'm surprised no one has made the stupid accusation that this is ANet's way of "forcing" us to buy resurrection orbs.)

Edited by Sans, 29 January 2013 - 02:48 PM.

[Evans]

Perhaps because those things are worthless and will only result in you being smacked down instantly after revival.

[Omedon]

Arenion, on 29 January 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

Go outside each evening every day,yeah seems legit(especially since i live 1 hour ride from any from of civilization ).

Anyway i'll see how PUG's will go today,if i get only bad groups in a row,i'll probably get a guild,otherwise i'm fine(though i won't be doing arah anytime soon )

I was generally joking, but I can't say I'd ever classify GW2 dungeons, without a set team as a full-time endgame "occupation."

Arenion, on 29 January 2013 - 02:38 PM, said:

You can't just say oh L2P and get a team if this is the end-content for most 80's.

Certainly not going to flame you with "L2P," but it is entirely possible that ANet will try to angle their team content to be an incentive for the healthy sociability behind "get a team."

I'm continually amazed at the innovative ways ANet find to turn the vitriolic Internet culture's inherent hate for each other against itself!

Edited by Omedon, 29 January 2013 - 02:58 PM.

[matsif]

I haven't run dungeons with a pug since a while before the update, now theres even less reason to do so.  Just about every pug I've ever been in in this game except for maybe 1 or 2 hotw clears has been filled with horrible players.

[Skibba]

XPhiler, on 29 January 2013 - 10:27 AM, said:

Lets see... there's
Dailies,
Dynamic Events,
Exploration,
Jumping Puzzles,
WvW,
Crafting,
Gathering,
SPvP

Lots of stuff you can log in for 1 hr now and then and enjoy really!

Are you honestly suggesting that clicking once on a mining node is a fun thing to do?

[XPhiler]

Skibba, on 29 January 2013 - 03:35 PM, said:

Are you honestly suggesting that clicking once on a mining node is a fun thing to do?

No I am suggesting its something a casual player can do to progress. gathering and selling the material they gather to buy gear.

[skysavage]

Omedon, on 29 January 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

This is just generally good advice in the context of GW2 dungeons, as the individual is just as empowered to say "gear check?  Lol next!"  as there are no "less popular" roles (tank/heal) that singlehandedly half-complete a group formation.

Play nice, make friends, prepare to be civil and buckle down to "learn and burn" as a true team.

Or, you know, put your name out amongst the community to form or join an actual long-term, proper team if you really want the look out of X dungeon.  Team content requires teams, not just groups.

Seriously Omedon, you have got to stop telling people they need to play this game how you perceive the game to be. You have played MMO's of the past and hereby declare yourself the ruler of how all MMO's should be played? I for one don't like investing tons of time into a guild or into online social structures just to play a game. I LIKE Guild War 2. Don't tell me to go play another game either because I like playing this one and I like playing it with just a few real life friends that aren't always on. I also love dungeons and am a great player. I don't wipe over and over and I learn fast. But seriously you are saying I have to invest hours upon hours to deal with social issues of people just to run a dungeon? I pay money to ANet just like you. This isn't a subscription game where they HAVE to make me spend 400 hours in a guild to run their content. But yes, making this change to the way waypoints work cuts off a large segment of people that just like to log on, play the cool dungeon, and not have to deal with drama of guilds. Stop telling me how I should play.

[verskore]

I think its not a very good idea...1 example  is path 2 from CoF, specifically the part where you have to kite the enemy until the asuran NPC installed the bombs. People die constantly at that part (if the team choses to kite) so making it impossible to ress while somebody is still in combat will be a disaster for that method. You can always fight the enemys that spawn but thats quite a bit harder than kiting.
I wont say anything about other dungeons cus thats actually the only one I allrdy did...

[tfckmk988]

verskore, on 29 January 2013 - 05:36 PM, said:

I think its not a very good idea...1 example  is path 2 from CoF, specifically the part where you have to kite the enemy until the asuran NPC installed the bombs. People die constantly at that part (if the team choses to kite) so making it impossible to ress while somebody is still in combat will be a disaster for that method. You can always fight the enemys that spawn but thats quite a bit harder than kiting.
I wont say anything about other dungeons cus thats actually the only one I allrdy did...

Someone said this was fixed earlier in the thread i have quoted it below and please read threads completely before replying it makes you seem like an idiot

Brizna, on 29 January 2013 - 01:12 PM, said:

CoF2 Magg's final event before end boss is one of the encounters that has been rebalanced, mobs are easier now and killing them all is not just posible but easy, on the other hand Anet has added Charr Assasins that directly go after Magg's butt ignoring party members and will make short work of him unless you kill them all, about 10 o them spawn in sequence while plenty more regular chars chase your party.
I tried it wit a PUG and while the party generally survived the char onslaught we only managed to get to 80% one time before Magg was killed. Very doable for real teams, PUGS get unlucky here at least until people start realizing Magg is more important than the mobs in this battle.

[Omedon]

skysavage, on 29 January 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

yes, making this change to the way waypoints work cuts off a large segment of people that just like to log on, play the cool dungeon, and not have to deal with drama of guilds. Stop telling me how I should play.

You are absolutely correct as to what these changes will do in this context.

Me, I'm just interpreting how it seems to me that *ArenaNet* is telling you how you should play.

There are lots of ways to enjoy GW2, these changes merely sharpen the point that dungeons aren't intended to be a "less social" undertaking.

Sure, you can still do dungeons less socially.... It will just be harder.  They're building that in on purpose, not me.

[AzureRogue]

I love that someone complained that players playing GUILD Wars 2 would be gimped by not being a GUILD, and that this was somehow unfair

And it's not like you have to deal with the "drama" of a guild.  Find a guild dedicated to running dungeons and only rep/turn on chat when you want to.  I am a member of a dungeon guild, a WvW guild, and a friend's guild and swap between the three as needed for what I feel like doing.  They all know this and they're all fine with it.

You bought a game with GUILD in the name - did you not thinking joinng a GUILD might be massively beneficial?  If you don't want to that's your business, but then don't complain when difficult high-end content seems out of your reach.

Gosh, first people complain dungeons are too hard, then that they're too easy and there's no end-game, then that they're too hard with PUGs - sorry, can't please everyone!

Edited by AzureRogue, 29 January 2013 - 06:46 PM.

[elmprotector]

Omedon, on 29 January 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

PUGs have never been intended for this content, or we'd have a "proper" dungeon finder, which you'll note GW2 is heavily resisting even considering.  GW2 dungeons are team content, not simply group content.  Teams know and are personally invested in each other before the dungeon.  Because of this, teams like each other.  Teams are committed to "learn and burn" over time, time and again, laugh off wipes, and are willing to come back tomorrow, or next week.  

I don't have a team (well... not one that cares about dungeons), therefore this isn't my content  and I'm fine with that, because I "get it," and have since before launch.

Perhaps some of you need to say something like this in the mirror, and re-allocate your content preferences, because there's tons to do in GW2.

LOL smug much?  When people look up elitist your face pops up in the wiki right?

This game is suppose to be a casual friendly game.  For those who dont have tons of time to play.  And finding groups is easy.  I use the website  that helps you find groups works great.

I like to do WvW mostly but instance runs are a nice distraction when I have a hour to burn.  Now this isnt so much so.  I guess I will zerg surf or solo in WvW.

I feel things will be balanced later but it was not a good idea to do this change first.... but I guess its there game they do it in what order they want.

[Omedon]

elmprotector, on 29 January 2013 - 07:19 PM, said:

LOL smug much?  When people look up elitist your face pops up in the wiki right?

This game is suppose to be a casual friendly game.  For those who dont have tons of time to play.  And finding groups is easy.  I use the website  that helps you find groups works great.

I like to do WvW mostly but instance runs are a nice distraction when I have a hour to burn.  Now this isnt so much so.  I guess I will zerg surf or solo in WvW.

I feel things will be balanced later but it was not a good idea to do this change first.... but I guess its there game they do it in what order they want.

Good sir or madam, I assure you , the only definition my face belongs with is "casual MMORPG player," I just also happen to have a reasonable set of expectations and perception of the content intentions of the games I play ("this content is meant for me, this is not..." Etc.)

I can't help that that combination seemingly makes me some kind of rarity.

[Hex65000]

Supposedly they 'improved' that part of the CoFlame 2 dungeon. I hate that part. A lot. If you have a good team that aren't all glass cannons, you can just all-in and fight. Even then, I would die at least once because my build is wonky. Still 1 death v/s my typical 3-4 in that part is worth it.

My biggest concern is this is just going to make PuGing worse. I'm okay with a non-speed run. In fact I'd rather pile up the bodies in most cases. Still all I'm getting from this thread is "oH LoL! Learn to PlAy n00b! Get a Real group!"

I like the guild I'm in, but they keep different hours than I do most days. We did get a party of 4 and a random from one of the bigger Borlis guilds and we did ACatacombs 1. Before we started the comment was made that we needed to stick together and not treat it like a speed run. We didn't skip Kohler, nor did we skip the Troll. There were a few deaths, but the survivors were able to at least finish the job or pick up the fallen. Where we ran into trouble was probably not where you would initially think. Kohler had people tip over, but no deaths. The Troll was the same. The only issues were when there were swarms of dudes, and people out of position during the boss fight. In the end, a bit rocky but satisfying.

Now you may say "oH LoL!1!! AC is easy!" Yeah, it's not that bad. You don't try out a modified mechanic for the first time on the hardest content available. Now let's go to the extreme that is Arah. I've never seen a group not have a death there. Even if you don't skip stuff, there's too much of everything unless you have a perfect group that knows how to min/max their characters perfectly. That's no fun. In fact, that's what I like about this game. I can play it pretty much the way I want and still function reasonably well. We were already seeing the emergence of class/gear checks from some folks in the game. This will likely aggravate that issue further. These are the people I don't want to play with. I'm loathe to use the term 'elitist' but it is what springs to mind. What else is there to "LFM CoF1 speed runs; must be warrior in full 'zerker gear" The regular guildies cleared CoF1 in 10 minutes or less regularly. I assure you that it was not an optimized group. That's almost 3 passes on one Omnomberry bar. (if you account for slop jumping in and out of the instance). W. T. F.?

I'm trying to figure out what ANet's logic was behind this decision. It could have been done differently or not at all, but right now it really just makes the PUG aspect of dungeon running much less attractive to the point that I may as well put on magic find gear and run around Orr like an idiot.

Even something similar to sPvP where there is a timer associated with respawning. First death, 5sec. Second, 10, 15, etc. The more you die, the longer you get to lie there and relax. While even that is underwhelming, it's a middle ground between what we have now and what we had.

To say, "oh you just need a real guild" completely misses the point.

Hex.
[ Oh, you got me started... ]

[ylistra]

In general, I don't mind the change.  I hated the events where waypoint rushing was the accepted end-all strategy for the encounter, on the basis that every class can do it and you don't have to think.

On the other hand, we were doing COF #3 last night and two party members got to watch us 3-man the boss from the molten lava observation deck.  It's boring and stupid if you're the one guy who is dead and impossible to revive.

What I would like to see is some adjustments to the revive utillity skills, especially in the completely dead case.  Also reduce/remove the healing penalty for completely dead party members in PvE.  Maybe an alternate death penalty would be a short skill / damage blackout for only the revived player.

[Omedon]

Hex65000, on 29 January 2013 - 07:25 PM, said:

I'm trying to figure out what ANet's logic was behind this decision. It could have been done differently or not at all, but right now it really just makes the PUG aspect of dungeon running much less attractive -

Actually, it's my theory that that's exactly the point behind these changes.

PUGs are groups, not teams.  Dungeons are team content.

That's what I think the message is here.

[Thaddeuz]

Omedon, on 29 January 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

Actually, it's my theory that that's exactly the point behind these changes.

PUGs are groups, not teams.  Dungeons are team content.

That's what I think the message is here.

Ya but before the patch the Dungeon (with some exception) was both Group and Team content. Now the path only add some other exception of (better be in a team to complete this path). This is not the end of the world. Still 80-90% of the dungeon are still good with PUG.

The best i think, would be a difficulty scaling for the dungeon a bit like Fractal. Not 80 level of difficulty, but something Normal and Hard mode. In Normal mode you can go with a pug and complete the content to gain access to Dungeon armor, etc.  In hard mode you would need better players and teamwork to get through it. A bit like medium level fractal (level 30-40) without agony.

[Craywulf]

The whole speed run mentality is the problem. ArenaNet didn't spend thousands of hours in creating these dungeons for parts of them to be skipped just so players can cash in on the reward for least amount of effort put it. I believe the Waypoint fix is huge step in direction of giving the creation of these dungeons the respect they deserve.

[Omedon]

Thaddeuz, on 29 January 2013 - 07:52 PM, said:

Ya but before the patch the Dungeon (with some exception) was both Group and Team content.

Yes.  And then they "fixed" that.  

Let me clarify that I'm not wringing my hands and cackling at people's misery here, I just greatly appreciate the ways ArenaNet counters the tumors embedded in our online interaction:

-GOGOGO: killed by this change
-Gear checks: crippled by personal player empowerment and lack of trinity.
-Social numbness: hindered by a firm resistance to an automated dungeon finder, and by true "team content."

The people that "suffer" from these design decisions are best steered away from being enabled in their antisocial habits ingrained by other games.

The option always exists to just write dungeons out of one's goals.  I did a long time ago, and I feel no loss or malice toward those that have the social networks to pull this content off.

Craywulf, on 29 January 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

The whole speed run mentality is the problem. ArenaNet didn't spend thousands of hours in creating these dungeons for parts of them to be skipped just so players can cash in on the reward for least amount of effort put it. I believe the Waypoint fix is huge step in direction of giving the creation of these dungeons the respect they deserve.

Exactly.

Edited by Omedon, 29 January 2013 - 08:10 PM.

[Brizna]

Craywulf, on 29 January 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

The whole speed run mentality is the problem. ArenaNet didn't spend thousands of hours in creating these dungeons for parts of them to be skipped just so players can cash in on the reward for least amount of effort put it. I believe the Waypoint fix is huge step in direction of giving the creation of these dungeons the respect they deserve.

I agree with you that in the long run this will be for the best but it is obvious this makes all dungeons more difficult and time consuming with no increase in reward. I think Anet will tone down the difficulty over time becuase a few dungeons are going to become very difficult with a very steep learn curve and low reward.

"Ludicrous" Giganticus is the greates offender here, any guild wishing to learn how to beat it from zero experience is up to several hours of runing that dungeon with different professions just to get to him and then will be stuck at phase 2 for tons of time (having to go through phase 1 after every fail) Most will simpply get frustrated and quit Arah.

All in all my opinion is the change is good but Anet implemented it in a very poor way that's going to cause trouble the coming months. And I don't know why but Anet is prety slow in GW2 to address isuses. How difficult is it to change the drop tables for dungeons according to difficulty and time investment?? Or changing mobs HPs and DPS?? In the end this just means fractals will become even more popular and that WAS NOT Anet's intent but quite the contrary.

So I give Anet a Bravo for the long term impact and a strong Booooo!! for how poorly it's been introduced.

[Thaddeuz]

Omedon, on 29 January 2013 - 08:06 PM, said:

Yes.  And then they "fixed" that.  

Let me clarify that I'm not wringing my hands and cackling at people's misery here, I just greatly appreciate the ways ArenaNet counters the tumors embedded in our online interaction:

-GOGOGO: killed by this change
-Gear checks: crippled by personal player empowerment and lack of trinity.
-Social numbness: hindered by a firm resistance to an automated dungeon finder, and by true "team content."

I understand your point, but your argument are imaginary (but not all).
- GOGOGO. In which way this is a problem? I mean, the few first time you do something you gonna want to take things slow and be careful because you don't know what is going on. But eventually you want to optimize your runs. You want to push your limit and see how you can do the run in less time. I don't run my dungeon now the same way i did 3 months ago. If you mean more skipping everything that is another thing.
- Gear Checks. Maybe i'm really lucky, but i was asked to link my gear only once in GW2. And it was in a CoF path 1 run. We all laugh at the guy (we are all pug) and he quit. He had a great time after that. Even in pug (my fractal group is a base of 3 people for now), in 40+ fractal i never been asked and never asked a gear check.
- Social numbness?? I run dungeon a lot (its the main part of my game). Sometimes i play with unfriendly people, sometimes nobody talk and sometimes its friendly and I put some of the pug in my Friend list.

That said. I don't hate the WP change in dungeon. I really don't think that will change the way dungeon are play right now except in some exception (like CoF path 2). I just think that there is some much way to improve dungeon before this.

[Hex65000]

Omedon, on 29 January 2013 - 08:06 PM, said:

-GOGOGO: killed by this no real change over time.
-Gear checks: crippled amplified by personal player empowerment entitlement and lack of trinity.

Sorry, fixed that for you.

Omedon, on 29 January 2013 - 08:06 PM, said:

The option always exists to just write dungeons out of one's goals.  I did a long time ago, and I feel no loss or malice toward those that have the social networks to pull this content off.

You say in one sentence that you are super casual, have written off dungeon running but then you want exclusive team play only?

Yes, that makes all sorts of sense.

The result is that role and gear specific 'teams' will gate participation in dungeon runs. Pugs will never see the content. Or if they do it'll be between lying down or getting kicked because they aren't specced right. Well coordinated groups will simply create their own trinity model -- which we are observing in emergence now. Nothing changes, except casual/semi-casual players will eventually be locked out. Oh, and the speed runs will continue. Hardcore players are after max efficiency of whatever it is they are trying to gather at that time. Anything else is unacceptable. To believe that speed runs will end with this patch as the dungeons are currently designed is absurd.

Hex.
[ Pick a better plan now! ]

[Omedon]

Hex65000, on 29 January 2013 - 08:43 PM, said:

Sorry, fixed that for you.

You say in one sentence that you are super casual, have written off dungeon running but then you want exclusive team play only?

Yes, that makes all sorts of sense.

The result is that role and gear specific 'teams' will gate participation in dungeon runs. Pugs will never see the content. Or if they do it'll be between lying down or getting kicked because they aren't specced right. Well coordinated groups will simply create their own trinity model -- which we are observing in emergence now. Nothing changes, except casual/semi-casual players will eventually be locked out. Oh, and the speed runs will continue. Hardcore players are after max efficiency of whatever it is they are trying to gather at that time. Anything else is unacceptable. To believe that speed runs will end with this patch as the dungeons are currently designed is absurd.

Hex.
[ Pick a better plan now! ]

You describe a lot of problem players and their habits in your post.

Just don't play with them.  No one is holding a gun to your head.

As to my respect for team content without a desire to run dungeons, it's a simple respect for what I see as good for the game.

We don't have to agree, indeed I'm pretty sure we won't after that angry post and the underlying lack of connection indicated there, but I wish you nothing but good times in a game that facilitates that desire with good intentions.  Luckily, we both play a game just like that

[Jump_N_Move]

The Magg fight in Path 2 of CoF was (before update) a gear check. Any group that can clear p1 in under 10 minutes can fight it out to defend Magg. Just call a target, spike it down, and repeat. The change made is...interesting. Number of enemies was increased and Its way more chaotic. You almost need Crowd Control. Or at least have one person who can soak up some damage just stand in front of Magg. Enemies will focus on the player once they reach melee range of the player, but otherwise they will want to run at Magg if they aren't engaged. Overall though it's definitely easier and requires less DPS to get through. The normal foes pop almost as soon as they are hit. That's good because i cried inside i saw someone say "1-2-2?"

I like the change so far. Punish the bad players and make em learn from their mistakes. I did p3 of CoF last night for only like the third time, and it was amazing how quick it forced some of the lower skilled players to (for the lack of a better phrase) buck up and learn to play(dodge). The final boss kicked 3/5 party members into the lava, and left me and an Ele to try and finish. We succumbed to his immobilize + knockback at like 1/8 hp unfortunately. Afterwards we still had to de-aggro, reset, and let the others rez twice; however that's not the important part. The important part is that by the end everyone knew how to handle the boss, before the Ele and I would of just tanked it until the other players ran back, and no one would of learned.

Also I now understand though why I had only done p3 like twice before hand. It was kinda long and semi-technical.