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Underwater Breath Bar


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#1 Horu

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 12:39 AM

Hi all.

I was thinking about it today... I though, "Well the game is so amazing, it pays so much attention to even the most tiny details, from environment to sound quality..." And I had the idea to unequip my breathing mask to see how the Breath Bar would be like...

Surprise, there is no breath bar!?

I've posted a suggestion on the Guild Wars 2 Forums and now I am here. I mean, its a detail, as I said... But it is something so simple that helps to sell the idea that you have that breathing mask slot and you need to use it or else you'll need to hold your breath... Now that I know i can breath underwater, that Aquatic Helm slot actually became a random accessory that is good for nothing.

Obviously, you can add runes and stuff to get even more powerful and all the bla bla blas, but what about the very meaning of the breathing mask in the first place, what about its functionality?

I hope more people agree with me in this one. ^^
Again, I love GW2, best mmorpg i've ever got into. But that simple detail took me a little off the immersion I had while playing the game.

#2 baels

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 12:53 AM

Arenanet doesn't want underwater combat to become a hassle. Needing to resurface or find pockets of air mid fight can be a pain in the ass and so they're avoiding it. Currently the Aquatic Mask is just another group of stats... and an annoyance which hides my rad helmet.

#3 Horu

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 12:58 AM

You didnt read what I've written.
Please, re-read my post and then you add a post.

I'll make it easy and explain to you what I've meant.

I havnt suggested that a Breath Bar should be added when you are equiped with a mask.
I suggested to make that mask something important. Not just a " group of stats... and an annoyance which hides my rad helmet."
So that when you, or IF you unequip it, a breath bar appears.


This would even allow the creation of underwater puzzles,like places where you cant use a rebreather to enter or the water is too dirty for the rebreather to filter and you'll need to cross a dungeon or a underwater tunnel finding the right air pockets, etc. It would be a underwater version of the jumping puzzles that are incredibly awesome.

Edited by Horu, 30 January 2013 - 01:16 AM.


#4 actionjack

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 01:54 AM

It would be fun to visit a underwater bar.  But I think it would be hard to sever the beverages if its all in the water.....

Anyhow....

They could just make it so you can never unequip breathing mask when underwater.

#5 Horu

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 02:03 AM

View Postactionjack, on 30 January 2013 - 01:54 AM, said:

It would be fun to visit a underwater bar.  But I think it would be hard to sever the beverages if its all in the water.....

Anyhow....

They could just make it so you can never unequip breathing mask when underwater.

Well, that too. But then you would be missing the possibility of the underwater puzzles.
This isn't just about how easy it is to get a solution, it is how awesome it would be to see the reaction of a person that is loving this game, when he takes hes mask off and he actually say: "Oh! I actually need one of those masks! I'll probably get something stronger then".

Edited by Horu, 30 January 2013 - 02:13 AM.


#6 actionjack

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 04:06 AM

View PostHoru, on 30 January 2013 - 02:03 AM, said:

Well, that too. But then you would be missing the possibility of the underwater puzzles.
This isn't just about how easy it is to get a solution, it is how awesome it would be to see the reaction of a person that is loving this game, when he takes hes mask off and he actually say: "Oh! I actually need one of those masks! I'll probably get something stronger then".

Yes.. I did consider that.  However, adding a breathing bar (I feel) would also limit the fun of exploring the underwater/sea, which offers some great Environmental/map design.

I could see it added more as if the area is required.  So you could have certain areas (if the map is building for it to have a puzzle/time limit element/pressure to it) where there are environmental hazards, like Poisonous Water or Freezing Water or Boiling Water, etc.  That could be use as the time-limitor, instead of having the need of a universal Breathing Bar.

#7 Horu

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 06:34 AM

View Postactionjack, on 30 January 2013 - 04:06 AM, said:

Yes.. I did consider that.  However, adding a breathing bar (I feel) would also limit the fun of exploring the underwater/sea, which offers some great Environmental/map design.

I could see it added more as if the area is required.  So you could have certain areas (if the map is building for it to have a puzzle/time limit element/pressure to it) where there are environmental hazards, like Poisonous Water or Freezing Water or Boiling Water, etc.  That could be use as the time-limitor, instead of having the need of a universal Breathing Bar.

C'mon, no one seems to fully read my posts.
Your idea for the puzzles are very good too. Even thou my suggestion is mainly about immersion.

I will type it simple.

My suggestion is:
If the person REMOVE the underwater breathing device, he would have a breathing gauge.

This is not something to be just a "Oh, its simple, don't remove your mask, ever" or, "Easy fix, just make it impossible to remove the mask".

This is not a problem with the game, or an enormous change in the gameplay or its mechanics. It is simply something that I am pretty sure a lot of people have done on their "What if" moments as for example... What if i remove my mask... will I drown?"

Currently, the answer to that is: "No, you breath water and air"

Edited by Horu, 30 January 2013 - 06:54 AM.


#8 Arewn

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 06:54 AM

Nice idea, you still get unlimited breath underwater so long as you have your mask on (which by default you get and have equipped), but if you chose to take it off/unequipped it, or if Arena Net makes a (for example fractals) mechanic in a specific location where you can't wear it and must work around a breath bar for a specific encounter.

#9 phani_kaushik

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 07:06 AM

I don't see it as a "breathing" mask as such in GW2 world. It's a piece of armor that's exclusive to underwater combat that adds to your armor & other stats, but replaces your helmet/mask. Sure it is named as "aquabreather" and such but not really used for breathing. If I take off my armor on land, I won't get scratches but I'll die faster or my DPS takes a hit, depending on the armor stats I'm running. Similarly taking off breather doesn't suffocate and kill me instantly, but my stats would take a hit (smaller or larger).

Considering it is Tyria and not Earth, I'd take it as things work and look differently out there :P

#10 Horu

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 07:11 AM

View Postphani_kaushik, on 30 January 2013 - 07:06 AM, said:

I don't see it as a "breathing" mask as such in GW2 world. It's a piece of armor that's exclusive to underwater combat that adds to your armor & other stats, but replaces your helmet/mask. Sure it is named as "aquabreather" and such but not really used for breathing. If I take off my armor on land, I won't get scratches but I'll die faster or my DPS takes a hit, depending on the armor stats I'm running. Similarly taking off breather doesn't suffocate and kill me instantly, but my stats would take a hit (smaller or larger).

Considering it is Tyria and not Earth, I'd take it as things work and look differently out there :P

I don't agree with you. It is just too simple to say "Well it's not real I'll ignore it", hell, people do that even to rl problems. Well, Tyria is not Earth eh? So Humans are not Humans? Since there is a Human race living in Tyria, friend, I am damn sure Tyria has the same basic laws.

#11 phani_kaushik

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 07:16 AM

I gave u my reasoning for it above. Instead of getting frustrated at others that they're not reading your post, how about you read it entirely? It's purpose is not to breath, its an underwater exclusive armor piece, period. As per lore, they're humans from another world FYI. Their origins were not in Tyria. So no, same basic laws NEED NOT apply in Tyria.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Humans

#12 Trei

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 07:16 AM

Fire still burns and water still splashes here in Tyria.
It's called a breathing apparatus, I'm not sure how much bigger of a hint you need to clue in to its function in this world.

I like the direction the OP's idea is heading.

Edited by Trei, 30 January 2013 - 07:22 AM.


#13 phani_kaushik

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 07:24 AM

View PostTrei, on 30 January 2013 - 07:16 AM, said:

Fire still burns and water still splashes here in Tyria.
It's called a breathing apparatus, I'm not sure how much bigger of a hint you need to clue in to its function in this world.

I like the direction the OP's idea is heading.

The link clearly mentions that it replaces terrestrial headgear and offers different stat bonuses, clearly what I wrote and doesn't mention that it is used for breathing. Name doesn't mean its purpose. Tyrian humans pray 6 gods - Balthazar, Dwayna and the rest. Why are we not praying them then? We can go on back and forth on stuff unrelated to OP. The last line, with an emote, was clearly added as a pun. I don't know how much bigger of a hint I'm supposed to give to say it was to add some humor other than an emote that looks like " :P "

#14 Horu

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 07:25 AM

View Postphani_kaushik, on 30 January 2013 - 07:16 AM, said:

I gave u my reasoning for it above. Instead of getting frustrated at others that they're not reading your post, how about you read it entirely? It's purpose is not to breath, its an underwater exclusive armor piece, period. As per lore, they're humans from another world FYI. Their origins were not in Tyria. So no, same basic laws NEED NOT apply in Tyria.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Humans

I read it. Didn't agree with it. Gave you an argument, didn't got frustrated about anything at all.
Are you really replying with that? I am ignoring the whole answer aside from the last line, which was an actual argument so I can reply.

If their origins were in Tyria or not, it doesn't matter. It is the Human race, Humans are a race with predefined aspects, one of which, states that we have lungs that purify the air on the atmosphere of the planet, converting it's O2 into our bodies. That same organ will failure to remove O2 from H2O molecules, with lethal consequences if one tries to do so.

View Postphani_kaushik, on 30 January 2013 - 07:24 AM, said:

The link clearly mentions that it replaces terrestrial headgear and offers different stat bonuses, clearly what I wrote and doesn't mention that it is used for breathing. Name doesn't mean its purpose. Tyrian humans pray 6 gods - Balthazar, Dwayna and the rest. Why are we not praying them then? We can go on back and forth on stuff unrelated to OP. The last line, with an emote, was clearly added as a pun. I don't know how much bigger of a hint I'm supposed to give to say it was to add some humor other than an emote that looks like " :P "

This very line made me laugh.
I am agnostic, people believe on what they want to believe. Religion is not a proof that we are Human, but a proof that we have an intellect capable of creating amazing theories.

Edited by Horu, 30 January 2013 - 07:28 AM.


#15 Arewn

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 07:28 AM

I'll also have to disagree, pretty sure the races of Tyria breath... and the under water masks are quiet expressly made out to be breathing devices.
Say what you will about them being video game races, but they are still based off of IRL humans and the physical reality of Tyria is based off of our own.
And you can't really take the statistical and mechanical use of an item to correlate to the item's in lore use. The citizens of Tyria don't pick up a pair of gloves and say "oh hey, +10 precision and +8 toughness".

#16 Soki

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 07:31 AM

View Postphani_kaushik, on 30 January 2013 - 07:06 AM, said:

I don't see it as a "breathing" mask as such in GW2 world. It's a piece of armor that's exclusive to underwater combat that adds to your armor & other stats, but replaces your helmet/mask. Sure it is named as "aquabreather" and such but not really used for breathing. If I take off my armor on land, I won't get scratches but I'll die faster or my DPS takes a hit, depending on the armor stats I'm running. Similarly taking off breather doesn't suffocate and kill me instantly, but my stats would take a hit (smaller or larger).

Considering it is Tyria and not Earth, I'd take it as things work and look differently out there :P
You can -not- be for real.

"Aqua Breather"
it has water-filtering detail on it.
How can a sane person argue that it's "not there for the purpose of breathing underwater"?

Gameplay-wise, yes, it's just a helmet you wear underwater for stats. Due to a design-oversight, or laze.
But in the world of Tyria, it's obviously meant to act as a water-filtration device for your mouth to ensure you can spend extended periods underwater.

Or are you trying to insinuate that water in Tyria can be inhaled by creatures without gills to breathe?
If you are, how do you explain creatures in Tyria -with- gills?
It seems like you're trying to explain away an obvious design oversight with hacksaw'd logic - and it just makes you look silly.

Edited by Soki, 30 January 2013 - 07:36 AM.


#17 Horu

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 07:57 AM

It really bugs me...
Why are people so reluctant to take such a harmful suggestion into consideration. If not to support the idea, try to get some of your own in place as "actionjack" did.

Also, I'll always backup my idea, since it is REALLY harmful, no one will die if they don't take the masks off. It would just make a lot of sense, since they had the trouble to give your default lvl 1 character, an Aqua Breather, with no statuses. It would also make the "Swim to the surface when downed" thing even more important and relevant, because you will KNOW that you can't breath underwater.

If you need to swim to the surface when you are downed because your aqua breather has been knocked off, but then, you don't need it to breath underwater, because it is just a piece of status...

...I find it really hard to buy this whole story.

Edited by Horu, 30 January 2013 - 08:20 AM.


#18 Trei

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 07:58 AM

View Postphani_kaushik, on 30 January 2013 - 07:24 AM, said:

The link clearly mentions that it replaces terrestrial headgear and offers different stat bonuses, clearly what I wrote and doesn't mention that it is used for breathing. Name doesn't mean its purpose....
Yes, did you not happen to notice this is exactly what the OP was talking about?

The game mechanics function of the aqua breathers technically is currently no different than a normal helm slot.
However, it is abundantly clear that the landlubber player races do not breathe water in the lore of Tyria, hence the slot name - to make sense of the absence of a breathing bar.

The argument here, the whole point of this thread, is why not make it more than that if it can provide a venue for more interesting content mechanics?

Yet you come into this thread and say something basically to the extent of "Its fine, its not meant for breathing"?
Relevance 0/10.

Edited by Trei, 30 January 2013 - 08:03 AM.


#19 phani_kaushik

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 08:00 AM

I didn't say they don't or do breath underwater. Asking for immersion in a MMO which has a frustrating underwater combat as it is, doesn't make sense either. I know OP is looking for more immersion and "what if"'s. I've seen even sillier stuff in this game like standing by the extreme corner of a ledge, it looks like you're in air. I'm sure humans can't fly or stand in thin air like that! But that position is important to clear some of JP's. It is just what it is. Also as I said in my first post, the last line was added as a joke. Some people fail to understand humor and go onto name-calling. Just wow!

#20 Horu

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 08:10 AM

View Postphani_kaushik, on 30 January 2013 - 08:00 AM, said:

I didn't say they don't or do breath underwater. Asking for immersion in a MMO which has a frustrating underwater combat as it is, doesn't make sense either. I know OP is looking for more immersion and "what if"'s. I've seen even sillier stuff in this game like standing by the extreme corner of a ledge, it looks like you're in air. I'm sure humans can't fly or stand in thin air like that! But that position is important to clear some of JP's. It is just what it is. Also as I said in my first post, the last line was added as a joke. Some people fail to understand humor and go onto name-calling. Just wow!

No one is "name-calling" no one here.
I respect your replies, as much as it's out of my reach of comprehension, why all the reluctance about the idea....
But believe me, I had worse replies in the official forums. Some of them made me want to leave this planet right now.

Anyways, english is not my main language, I might fail to understand some kinds of humor sometimes, for that I am sorry.
The problem with the "invisible ledges" thou are not a situational problem. It is something that has to do with polygon counts for the models, walkable paths and the character's hard box. It's not as simple as the underwater breath gauge.

#21 Lordkrall

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 08:19 AM

So, lets say one dies enough times in Fractals and the breather breaks right before you enter the Underwater Fractal?
How are you suppose to manage to do that if you can't survive under water for long (there are no way to get out of the water in that Fractal)?

#22 phani_kaushik

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 08:26 AM

@OP, it wasn't at all directed at you, and no need to apologize for anything. I am not reluctant at the idea. I've seen much buggier or lazier designs in this or other games.

To be serious, as far as I'm concerned, the problem with forcing player in this game to go up the surface for breathing like in many FPS's once their threshold is reached, will cause more frustration, atleast from a player perspective. Main reason is the water bodies in this game are so deep and even speed skills can hardly give any boost to your character, and making player to go up to surface, if their breather is broken or if they don't equip one, will cause player's to avoid underwater content completely in future. Right now we don't have much of it storywise so many don't prefer to go underwater due to these reasons unless they want to mine ores or to finish a heart quest or to get a skill pt. Second thing is, there would be more design constraints that would come into play, like higher level aquabreathers giving more time to breath and lower level one's giving less time. So it involves even more stats per equipment, and also depending on which race it is (diff races can have different period of lengths to which they can sustain underwater without breather, mainly aquatic creatures like largos if they ever become playable for example). Too many permutations and combinations to work out for a part of game that has least to offer at the moment. These are some things that I think could come into play if this design is implemented. More traits would also come into picture to enable the player for increased time of breathing without breather, or something similar. They've already gave us the condition to swim up when in downed state during underwater combat, failing which the character would die regardless of if the breather is equipped or not. That mechanic might be to compensate for the lack of immersion that taking off your breather currently has.

I am not shunning the idea. Just saying that due to many reasons, it isn't viable. If my post came off as "your idea is ridiculous" I'm sorry. My later responses were directed at others who were looking to stroke their e-peen instead of taking a joke as a joke.

#23 Swoopeh

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 08:27 AM

It does break immersion somewhat, if they have the time I'd support this idea. They would have to implement a breath bar and water death system linked to whether a character is or isn't equipping an item in the breather slot, plus test it properly, so that would take some time. However it would be one of those details that can make a game awesome by adding an extra layer of believability.

Edit: they could simply make the breather unbreakable (assuming enemies are dumb enough not to target the very item that keeps you alive under water :P) to prevent getting stuck in places. But yeah, there are a lot of ifs and buts (lolol), probably too many for Anet to spend their time implementing it.

Edited by Swoopeh, 30 January 2013 - 08:31 AM.


#24 raspberry jam

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 08:32 AM

People sure think up weird ideas.

Would it be cool to have a breathing bar if you removed your mask? Eh sure whatever. But why would people do it (except to test it)? Well if ANet should be motivated to spend hours or days of design (and programming) time on this then they want it to be used. This means puzzles where you have to remove your mask etc...

And that is awful.

#25 Horu

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 08:35 AM

View Postphani_kaushik, on 30 January 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

@OP, it wasn't at all directed at you, and no need to apologize for anything. I am not reluctant at the idea. I've seen much buggier or lazier designs in this or other games.

To be serious, as far as I'm concerned, the problem with forcing player in this game to go up the surface for breathing like in many FPS's once their threshold is reached, will cause more frustration, atleast from a player perspective. Main reason is the water bodies in this game are so deep and even speed skills can hardly give any boost to your character, and making player to go up to surface, if their breather is broken or if they don't equip one, will cause player's to avoid underwater content completely in future. Right now we don't have much of it storywise so many don't prefer to go underwater due to these reasons unless they want to mine ores or to finish a heart quest or to get a skill pt. Second thing is, there would be more design constraints that would come into play, like higher level aquabreathers giving more time to breath and lower level one's giving less time. So it involves even more stats per equipment, and also depending on which race it is (diff races can have different period of lengths to which they can sustain underwater without breather, mainly aquatic creatures like largos if they ever become playable for example). Too many permutations and combinations to work out for a part of game that has least to offer at the moment. These are some things that I think could come into play if this design is implemented. More traits would also come into picture to enable the player for increased time of breathing without breather, or something similar. They've already gave us the condition to swim up when in downed state during underwater combat, failing which the character would die regardless of if the breather is equipped or not. That mechanic might be to compensate for the lack of immersion that taking off your breather currently has.

I am not shunning the idea. Just saying that due to many reasons, it isn't viable. If my post came off as "your idea is ridiculous" I'm sorry. My later responses were directed at others who were looking to stroke their e-peen instead of taking a joke as a joke.

That's the real problem with your arguments...
They mean nothing once you have not understood the suggestion at all.

This is a detail. You wont remove the breather, ever.

About the fractal problem. Someone already said that in the official forums. I really think the water breather could be unbreakable. If the whole armor is broken, you probably wont get too well in the fractal anyways...

View Postraspberry jam, on 30 January 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

People sure think up weird ideas.

Would it be cool to have a breathing bar if you removed your mask? Eh sure whatever. But why would people do it (except to test it)? Well if ANet should be motivated to spend hours or days of design (and programming) time on this then they want it to be used. This means puzzles where you have to remove your mask etc...

And that is awful.

Argh.
That "Whatever" is the worst word in your language's dictionary, you know that? It adds so little to nothing content to the whole reply. It feels like you have no interest in the gameplay whatsoever.

Anyways, they wont spend days in this. Also, even thou its your opinion, others might enjoy this little challenge. As I love jumping puzzles, the harder they are the more I want to do them to see what will be my reward.

I also find it funny that you think the idea of breathing underwater isn't weird. ^^

Edited by Horu, 30 January 2013 - 08:39 AM.


#26 FoxBat

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 08:41 AM

I don't really buy the puzzle argument, because Fractals already implemented exactly this with "deep" water. Except instead of air/air pockets, its evil critters in the dark vs. short-duration lights. Many other variations are possible as well, like poison/toxic water and temporary antidote, lava and flame shield, etc.

#27 iceblue

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 08:46 AM

I actually think its a great idea, but really no player is just going to take off the mask. It could be breakable like any other armor piece when you die, and that might cause a player then to have a breath bar... but still very little chance of that happening. When you combine the idea of being forced to take it off, with air pocket jumping puzzles then it's awesome.

#28 Horu

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 08:46 AM

Quote

Quote

they can get damaged and break only in the underwater environment, as far as i remember. if you are on the ground, only armor pieces + backslot get damaged, after dying 7 times (for each armor piece + backpiece) these 7 items start breaking, breather stays intact, but underwater breather has the same chance to get damaged, so literally, if you are doing the underwater fractal naked and leave your breather as the only item on, it will break after you die twice. and after being ressed you'll be dying as soon as your cool-immersion-breathing-bar gets empty.

that's the main reason i say this suggestion is completely pointless and not worth any effort.

How can a 7 times of Death>Go back to waypoint>repeat, be something to ignore, they just released a patch to prevent people from Res-Rushing dungeons!

This kind of action is clearly not welcome among ANet.
Calling ideas pointless and useless is too easy, any random can do that.
I suggest you don't. I really don't appreciate this kind of immature behavior.

This text above is from the Official Forums.
That's my point. If getting killed more then 7 times and res rushing is not to be worried about... Then why did they've just released a patch to fix res-rushing?

#29 Killyox

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 08:58 AM

This would be a huge waste of time resources and brain power. Doesn't bring anything to the table and only brings something they never wanted.

#30 Kurosov

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 08:59 AM

It was tried many times before, hand hated in every game that did.

Arena Net had the foresight to do it better.




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