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#151 zwei2stein

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 08:17 AM

View PostAKGeo, on 03 February 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:


Am I missing anything? Oh! And in about 15 days I get a new ascended accessory for free because I play the game!

You don't need to go around and fetch in order to get these dailies. But if you're not playing the game to its full potential, then I can see why you'd think you do. But that's not Anet's fault that the mechanics they gave you to enrich the gameplay experience (underwater battle, dodging, crafting) aren't part of your playstyle. I guess you won't get the dailies, then.

Oh god... this is so wrong. So damn wrong.

View Postchristiansoldier, on 01 February 2013 - 07:25 PM, said:

This thread like many surprises me because of the passion that it invokes in some people.  I have always viewed that the daily and monthly achievements as optional.  I nice to have bonus.  I have been playing since the beta and have only made 1 monthly achievement and maybe a small fraction of the daily achiements.  When I talk with co workers that play GW2 they are in the same boat.  I think most casual players do not earn the monthly and only the dailys on days they have a long block of time to play.

They are less and less optional with each patch that increases rewards. If you play with erratic schedulle, you will be left behind in pretty much everything that matters when they get that afternoon free to play with other people (notably xp and equipment).

They also do not require grouping, in contratry to what AKGeo promotes. And that is very important because it allows people to go afk anytime without being insulted or shouted at by coplayer.

Last evening, i did my daily in 5 game segments with up to hour of afk inbetween then. I am sure people like AKGeo would enjoy having me in their party, why wouldn't they?

You used to be able to do daily in 15 minutes if you wanted to and if you played in open world, doing personal story and whatnot, it just happened without devoting extra effort or deviating from gameplay.

So why are dailies important enough to agrue about then on internet?

They give fair chunk of xp towards next level, few silver in monetary reward and in mystic coin. Those are of little consequence, not important enough to post to forums about.

It is about karma - karma right now is the best access to "welfare exotics", if you do your dailies while leveling character you will have enough karma for majority of your equipment slots and enough gold for weapons and rest of slots. And no, you will not have enough gold for everything from "just" leveling. And your character which hit L80 3 months ago might be swimming in karma, but fresh characters aint.

And it is not optional - if you want to do any grouped content, you will need that exotic set.

Laurels now made it even less optional because in 15 days, everyone can get their first ascended piece and in three months, three ascended pieces are going to be at very least expected.

Dailiy and monthly is about the only way of accessing it casually.

So suggestion to "do the duneons, duh huh duh" is freaking useless because of catch 22 nature of it - how can i be running fractals to do my aquatic kills and revives when i am curently playing L41 warrior in mix of blues and greens???

Daily is the only way to "progress" in game while leveling alts and doing personal story - also knowns as "I play the game!"

#152 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 08:22 AM

View PostStrawberry Nubcake, on 04 February 2013 - 12:34 AM, said:

The difference between me and people like you is that I didn't believe everything Anet said.  I took most of it with a grain of salt and tried to keep my expectations realistic.  It seemed silly to believe everything when it felt like I was watching an infomercial every time I saw an interview or article about the game.  Maybe you're the one that is naive?

A.Net lies.
You blame the player.

#153 Red_Falcon

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 08:56 AM

View PostStrawberry Nubcake, on 04 February 2013 - 12:34 AM, said:

You might want to look up the definition of "repetition" if you think running a fractal every single day isn't repetition.  Some might even argue that it's grind.  I disagree, but it doesn't change the fact some people consider anything grind if they need to do it more than once.

There are different degrees of repetition.
Every day you wake up and drink a coffee, eat a croissant, take out the dog - because you enjoy it.
Is that a grind that makes your life a grind? No.
Now think if you wake up and you get coffee 0/20, croissant 0/20, take out the dog 0/20 checklist, and that if you don't do it you can't access your fridge.

Grind is defined by how many times you repeat an action, and whether it is a choice or a forced requirement for something important.

View PostStrawberry Nubcake, on 04 February 2013 - 12:34 AM, said:

I understand that you don't like the direction the game is going.  Many of us have been upset about something at some point and it made us wonder what the future holds.  I was pissed when they added the ascended tier and eventually asked myself one question when I calmed down a bit:  do I still enjoy the game?  My answer was "yes" and I am still playing.  I'm not even all that butthurt about the ascended gear anymore.  I would have uninstalled and moved on if that wasn't my answer.  Ask yourself the same question!

The difference between me and people like you is that I didn't believe everything Anet said.  I took most of it with a grain of salt and tried to keep my expectations realistic.  It seemed silly to believe everything when it felt like I was watching an infomercial every time I saw an interview or article about the game.  Maybe you're the one that is naive?

I think what they meant when they said the stuff about "kill ten rats" quests was that those types of quests wouldn't be what players rely on for leveling in GW2.  I can't tell you how many MMORPGs I have played where hunting down NPCs and killing a bunch of rats for them was pretty much all I did until end game.  It was fine (almost fun) for the first few days, but then it became boring as hell.  There weren't many options besides those quests or non-stop grind to gain experience.  I believe that is what they were trying to change.  I could be wrong, but that makes sense to me since that is is what was bad about those quests in other games.

We are 5 months in and It should be pretty obvious at this point that Anet was either unable to deliver or changed their mind about some stuff they said in the past.  These games change over time... sometimes before release.  Everybody won't think the changes are good, but what we all have in common is the option to leave when we feel that the bad outweighs the good.

I still believe GW2 offers a much better gameplay than other MMOs (combat most of all), but I'm not sure what it'll be of PvE.

PvE was all a bait and switch, we were promised a MMO without gear treadmill, grind or fetch quests and it just took 5 months to break all of these promises and turn GW2's PvE into classic blizzard PvE.

Simply put, I don't like being lied to. And I don't like how easily most people accepted all these changes.
GW2 was supposed to be the anti-traditional MMO, to be different... now it's the same as a traditional MMO save for combat and PvP.

#154 Red_Falcon

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 09:21 AM

View PostProtoss, on 04 February 2013 - 08:22 AM, said:

A.Net lies.
You blame the player.

Yeah it's pretty funny that I am blamed for being pissed that Anet broke their promises.
I just wonder to what degree people need to be lied before they stop being yes-men zombies.
It's like buying a diet coke that's touted to never have sugar or fat, and then it contains exactly that - not really sure how it can be fault of the drinker.

But ultimately, GW2 gave me 1000 hours of non-traditional MMO content before turning into a WoW clone so I guess I got my money's worth.
Plus there is still PvP which is untouched by that and still enjoyable.

It's just sad to see all the hopes to get a non-traditional MMOs gone, and even sadder see Anet lie to their customers even people who played their games for 8 years like me.
I'd never expect this from them, but hey, I guess the GW1 studio changed and it's not the same people who had respect for their players.
This will backfire tho; having a million of loyal customers is better than 3 millions of traditional MMO players who will jump on the next game and forget GW2.
They'll see the outcome of their lying themselves.

Edited by Red_Falcon, 04 February 2013 - 09:24 AM.


#155 XPhiler

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 09:49 AM

Unbelievable, lots of people complain that the new dailies offer no choices and only one person who got totally ignored pointed out that this is just the begining and the plan is to have a system where you choose 4 out of 6 daily tasks to do.

Personally I find the old dailies were stagnant, I am happy to get some change, repeating the same things is always boring. Change is good.

@Red_falcon I personally thing you're seeing things out of perspective. Just cause things get values assigned to them it doesnt magically make them somehow more grindy. Example you might take 5 coffees a day. A task that says take 0/5 coffees a day doesnt make your day more grindy.

What I am trying to say is if you really run fractals daily you will sort the kill veterans, kills, kill types and dodge in there easily. Still leaves you with crafting, gathering, events, revive and aquatic kills of course and I can understand you might find those grindy.  I dont know what other things you like to do but some things can get you sorted, WvW for example if thats your sort of thing. revives are pertty easy to come by there. Aquatic kills can be achieved by going for the underwater objectives. Events you get while playing easily which leaves gathering and crafting. They go hand in hand, my suggestion would be while walking around gather what you come across. That leaves crafting as the only grindy task you have to do. My suggestion to you personally would be leave an alt by a crafting station. Before you log off, switch to that alt and refine 10 items you gathered. If you happen to like WvW that should reduce your grinding to just 10seconds per day. Well a couple of minutes to be fair you might still consider gathering a grind even if you do it while doing things you enjoy. All in all its not so bad.

But there is one thing I would like to make clear not just to Red_falcon but to everyone. A common theme people bring up is how the manifesto said that the game would leave people free to play like they want. I think some people are twisting the meaning of this a bit or maybe its just a matter of perception. The game most certainly allows you to play like you want but leaving you entirely free to do anything you want and it does that by making sure nothing is required for anything. I understand that people like Red_falcon feel they have to have best in slot and I am sure in time when Ascended gear is fully deployed they'll be able to aquire the full set by playing anything they love playing like anything else in game. however even before that happens keep in mind that Ascended gear is entirely optional. Thus it is important If you choose to aquire it you realise you're the one making that choice and it is not the game thats forcing you in any way to do it. Thats why I disagree with statements like the manifesto is a lie because I am forced to do dailies as its the only way to get an ascended amulet (and technically you can aquire this outside of dailies too by crafting the triforge pendant).  The game doesnt force you to do dailies, it doesnt even force you to get ascended gear.

People need to keep in mind that Freedom to play the way you want is a tricky thing. Everyone wants to be free to play any content regardless of equipement. Some people want equipment thats hard to get. Some people want to start off with the best equipement. Some people want to earn their equipement by just doing dungeons. Other players want to do various activities to earn there equipement etc.. Its pretty hard to make a game that satisfies everyone. Gw2 tries to live by its manifesto by making any armor tier viable including common. It provides gear thats moderatly difficult to aquire (ascended gear). That can require a pretty heavy investment in time to full upgrade (infusions). It has shorter term goals if thats too much effort (exotic). And for people who want legendary level of dedication you get legendaries. The game gives you full freedom to pursuit any and all of these goals. The game gives you a ton of flexibility when it comes to what content you play to aquire those goals. But that being said once you decide on a goal you will have to put some work and you will have to sacrifice somewhat to get it. Ascended gear is a bit worst right now cause it is still being introduced. But please lets stop this manifesto is a lie stuff cause I have yet to see any MMO make some much stride to offer true freedom.

#156 Heart Collector

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 09:54 AM

I'm pretty pleased that we can get ascended stuff by doing dailies (eventually). They did say they'd add new ways of getting ascended stuff outside of fractals anyway, and as dailies take an hour to complete at most and can often be done without even noticing you're doing them, it's peachy for more casual players like me. Yeah the way they are now we do need to check what they are beforehand every day, but again they're not much of a hassle.

Also: This is only the first of the major updates. Maybe more avenues for ascended items will be added in the coming months. We'll see. TBH I never believed the "we're removing the grind" schtick, the grind will always be there in some form or other. Luckily for me the form it's in doesn't bug me much in this game. I think that the only two things that would piss me off and make me quit cold turkey would be 1) adding the tank/dps/healer hard trinity and 2) making the game sub based.

#157 raspberry jam

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 03:37 PM

View PostXPhiler, on 04 February 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

Example you might take 5 coffees a day. A task that says take 0/5 coffees a day doesnt make your day more grindy.

http://chrishecker.c...idered_harmful?

For interesting tasks,
  • Tangible, expected, contingent rewards reduce free-choice intrinsic motivation, and
  • Verbal, unexpected, informational feedback, increases free-choice and self-reported intrinsic motivation.
In other words, yes, having a 0/5 coffee makes drinking coffee grindy even if you normally drink 5 per day.

#158 astromarmot

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 03:40 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 04 February 2013 - 03:37 PM, said:

http://chrishecker.c...idered_harmful?

For interesting tasks,
  • Tangible, expected, contingent rewards reduce free-choice intrinsic motivation, and

  • Verbal, unexpected, informational feedback, increases free-choice and self-reported intrinsic motivation.
In other words, yes, having a 0/5 coffee makes drinking coffee grindy even if you normally drink 5 per day.

Especially if you buy it in whole-bean form...

#159 christiansoldier

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 04:54 PM

View Postzwei2stein, on 04 February 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:


They are less and less optional with each patch that increases rewards. If you play with erratic schedulle, you will be left behind in pretty much everything that matters when they get that afternoon free to play with other people (notably xp and equipment).


I have played since the beta with a very erratic schedule and have never felt left behind.  I have joined parties for story mode dungeons and even fotm albeit very early levels. I play with my friends for regular world exploration.  I have been having a great time in the game with very few complaints.  I do not feel the content has gotten stale and I feel I have tons left to do.  I think the problem is, your own standards for "everything that matters".  You have set them high because it is very important for you to have the best equipment and party with others that have the same. I will never question a persons choice for how they play the game but if your style of game play causes you stress and makes it seem like a grind or work is it really worth it?  If a game change/update causes rage and the need to rant publically is it worth it? A game is meant to be fun.

#160 raspberry jam

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 05:13 PM

View Postchristiansoldier, on 04 February 2013 - 04:54 PM, said:

A game is meant to be fun.
I feel that this is the problem right here, GW2 is quite close to being fun, but it has all these things in it that puts in a wall there, a barrier, a veil of unfun.

#161 astromarmot

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 05:19 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 04 February 2013 - 05:13 PM, said:

I feel that this is the problem right here, GW2 is quite close to being fun, but it has all these things in it that puts in a wall there, a barrier, a veil of unfun.

Veil of unfun is slated to become a Mesmer skill methinks...comparable to the Guardians barrier of unfun,, and the engineer's wall of unfun...the Ele is getting the unfun aura, the Warrior has the banner of unfun, and Necro will be sporting the new unfun swarm....don't ask about the Ranger or Thief though...

#162 EphraimGlass

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 05:25 PM

View Postastromarmot, on 04 February 2013 - 05:19 PM, said:

Veil of unfun is slated to become a Mesmer skill methinks...comparable to the Guardians barrier of unfun,, and the engineer's wall of unfun...the Ele is getting the unfun aura, the Warrior has the banner of unfun, and Necro will be sporting the new unfun swarm....don't ask about the Ranger or Thief though...

Ranger gets a new pet, the unfunopotamus and the thief gets fun only in short bursts when RNG allows him to steal it from an enemy.

#163 raspberry jam

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 05:40 PM

View PostEphraimGlass, on 04 February 2013 - 05:25 PM, said:

the thief gets fun only in short bursts when RNG allows him to steal it from an enemy.
Gonna roll a thief so I can have fun in this game.

#164 Feathermoore

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 05:56 PM

While I appreciate the humor, let's try to get back to the topic at hand.

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#165 Volkon

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 06:25 PM

I think what's being overlooked is one thing that's very important... there's no required grind involved. Whether or not you have an ascended amulet or a crafted exotic won't make a difference in your effectiveness, your ability to do anything in the game, etc. Ascended gear is marginally higher in stats and fills the time-gap between the time required to get exotics (nearly instant) and legendary weapons (you can feel yourself age). This is what the manifesto was about... no forced gear treadmills, no forced grinds to enjoy the game. If you choose to go for an ascended ring you now have multiple ways to do so and more will be added later as we progress. If you want to take the time to get an ascended piece you'll have options on how to spend that time... do dailies for laurels, run Fractals, something else later (like WvW)...

Now, regarding the dailies. Personally, they're so in tune with normal game play you can get most of them simply by getting off your rump and doing things. I do a lot of WvW personally, so that will give one quick example... after a daily refresh, I was in a group that flipped a supply camp. Bang... four Veterans, a few dodges, piece of cake. Kill krait to flip the quaggans, underwater complete. The only thing I didn't fill up just running around WvW was crafting, so I burned half a minute in L.A. taking care of that for metal bars I'd need to make regardless. If you don't want to WvW there are plenty of other ways to accomplish these base goals. Go to Orr... plenty of veterans there. Heck, take on a Vet. Risen Giant. You'll get a vet kill and plenty of dodges avoiding grub spit. Besides, an Asuran mesmer looks pretty hot taking down a Risen Giant. You can find downed NPCs all over the place there. Orr not your thing? See what's happening at Nageling (sp?). If the giant is taking the town you'll have more NPCs to rez than you can handle. If not, there are usually a few downed ones outside the walls.

I guess the point there is this... don't use the dailies to define how you need to play... use them to guide you a little bit while you're playing. Instead of running by or swimming across that lake, take an underwater route and plow a path through it. Revive NPCs. Mine that ore, chop that tree. And, for the love of the Great Holy Kitten, dodge!

#166 Siltoneus

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 06:41 PM

View PostRed_Falcon, on 02 February 2013 - 05:09 AM, said:

They could easily have the daily require several events around the world so the maps are filled again and it wouldn't be blizzard kill ten rats trash, but I see they gave people what they wanted in the end.
Really?  If ANet changed to that model, I know we would have a 6 page thread on how people "HATE" being "FORCED" to use WP travel to meet the requirements of the Dailys.

Face it, no matter what ANet picks, someone is going to be ticked about it.  Give the players the option of completing 6 tasks out of 12, and the forums will be filled with people complaining bitterly about the six they have to do.  "I don't like to kill mobs, I only like crafting.  Why am I forced to kill, when it's against my ethical and moral judgements?"  HA!

I for one, love the new dailies.  I wish they wouldn't give everyone the same damn daily each day (IRT the Healing daily), but that's just a minor annoyance.

#167 XPhiler

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 07:31 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 04 February 2013 - 03:37 PM, said:

http://chrishecker.c...idered_harmful?

For interesting tasks,
  • Tangible, expected, contingent rewards reduce free-choice intrinsic motivation, and

  • Verbal, unexpected, informational feedback, increases free-choice and self-reported intrinsic motivation.
In other words, yes, having a 0/5 coffee makes drinking coffee grindy even if you normally drink 5 per day.

I agree thats precisely the entire problem. People conditioning themselves in believing they're grinding because of their inability to just play the game for fun rather then the numbers. Example they're totally happy of drinking 5 coffees a day and will do it regardless but if you ask them to drink 5 coffees a day then riot!

Of course the irony of this all if gw2 were to hide from you what you require to complete the daily achievement you'd get yet a different kind of riot.

I am sorry but in situation like these it isnt the game that require fixing but people's attitude. What can Anet do about something like this?

#168 christiansoldier

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 07:34 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 04 February 2013 - 05:13 PM, said:

I feel that this is the problem right here, GW2 is quite close to being fun, but it has all these things in it that puts in a wall there, a barrier, a veil of unfun.

Do you think that is true with the masses?  My co-workers and friends that play the game really enjoy it.  They are all casual players that are not spending their lives in a game.  The complaints I see on this forum are totally different from what I see in real life and what I experience in the game.  I think if you feel the need to do all the dailies, monthlies buy/get  the best exotic/ascended gear it becomes more of a job than a game.  When I read about some of the hours that players put into this game I am shocked. I have read some players putting more that 40 hours a week into the game and then complaining about being bored of the content.  I worry when our developers have to do more than 40 hours a week.  Excessive overtime leads to burn out and bad code. Why would people expect different from playing a game excessively?

#169 Adaina Telnadris

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 08:51 PM

View Postchristiansoldier, on 04 February 2013 - 07:34 PM, said:

Do you think that is true with the masses?  My co-workers and friends that play the game really enjoy it.  They are all casual players that are not spending their lives in a game.  The complaints I see on this forum are totally different from what I see in real life and what I experience in the game.  I think if you feel the need to do all the dailies, monthlies buy/get  the best exotic/ascended gear it becomes more of a job than a game.  When I read about some of the hours that players put into this game I am shocked. I have read some players putting more that 40 hours a week into the game and then complaining about being bored of the content.  I worry when our developers have to do more than 40 hours a week.  Excessive overtime leads to burn out and bad code. Why would people expect different from playing a game excessively?

This. People can't inspect you, if you play well, how are they going to know you ignored daily's and don't have the Ascended Amulet? Relax and enjoy folks!

#170 Red_Falcon

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 09:44 PM

View PostSiltoneus, on 04 February 2013 - 06:41 PM, said:

Really?  If ANet changed to that model, I know we would have a 6 page thread on how people "HATE" being "FORCED" to use WP travel to meet the requirements of the Dailys.

Face it, no matter what ANet picks, someone is going to be ticked about it.  Give the players the option of completing 6 tasks out of 12, and the forums will be filled with people complaining bitterly about the six they have to do.  "I don't like to kill mobs, I only like crafting.  Why am I forced to kill, when it's against my ethical and moral judgements?"  HA!

I for one, love the new dailies.  I wish they wouldn't give everyone the same damn daily each day (IRT the Healing daily), but that's just a minor annoyance.

Everything in the world has some people that complain about it.
The difference is that if Anet went that way, they would be coherent with their claims that GW2 would have no grinds/fetch quests.

Wouldn't you be a bit pissed if the shopkeeper sold you a bag of red oranges, and when you cut the oranges at home you realize they are actually normal oranges?
It shouldn't be possible to promise one thing and deliver another.
Not sure about American laws on this, but in my country we take this very seriously; very little companies would attempt a bait-and-switch because there are severe consequences, but apparently MMO makers seem free to lie about their products without any retorsion.

Ultimately, I can adapt to these things but they should've been mentioned since the beginning.
They should have said "PvE will be about gear treadmills and daily fetch quests", not claim the opposite and then still do it.

It's a matter of customer trust and especially respect.

Edited by Red_Falcon, 04 February 2013 - 09:45 PM.


#171 christiansoldier

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 10:47 PM

View PostRed_Falcon, on 04 February 2013 - 09:44 PM, said:

Wouldn't you be a bit pissed if the shopkeeper sold you a bag of red oranges, and when you cut the oranges at home you realize they are actually normal oranges?
It shouldn't be possible to promise one thing and deliver another.
Not sure about American laws on this, but in my country we take this very seriously; very little companies would attempt a bait-and-switch because there are severe consequences, but apparently MMO makers seem free to lie about their products without any retorsion.

??? We are talking about the Daily Achievements and laurels right?  How can you compare bait and switch laws to a game mechanic? One is real life and the other is a game activity.  That is like complaining that Parker Brothers is unfair because they let criminals get out of jail for free because they got lucky and have a card or it is unjust to just pay someone $10 for coming in second place in a beauty contest.

#172 Jetjordan

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 10:48 PM

View PostRed_Falcon, on 04 February 2013 - 09:44 PM, said:

Everything in the world has some people that complain about it.
The difference is that if Anet went that way, they would be coherent with their claims that GW2 would have no grinds/fetch quests.

Wouldn't you be a bit pissed if the shopkeeper sold you a bag of red oranges, and when you cut the oranges at home you realize they are actually normal oranges?
It shouldn't be possible to promise one thing and deliver another.
Not sure about American laws on this, but in my country we take this very seriously; very little companies would attempt a bait-and-switch because there are severe consequences, but apparently MMO makers seem free to lie about their products without any retorsion.

Ultimately, I can adapt to these things but they should've been mentioned since the beginning.
They should have said "PvE will be about gear treadmills and daily fetch quests", not claim the opposite and then still do it.

It's a matter of customer trust and especially respect.

you should read a user agreement before you make serious claims like these.

#173 Serris

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 11:45 PM

something changes, people will complain. something doesn't change, people will complain.

face it, you can't please the gw2 crowd.

this change to the daily was a long time coming. i'm pretty sure this was the design for it since the start, to closer resemble the zaishen quests. they also highlight parts about the game players may not have known about (the combofield one, while bugged, springs to mind: a lot of people asking in chat didn't even know there was such a thing as combos)

View PostJetjordan, on 04 February 2013 - 10:48 PM, said:

you should read a user agreement before you make serious claims like these.

tbh, a user agreement holds no legal sway whatsoever. it's some pretty words they put there, but if something gets taken to court, you can throw all the EULA's at the judge, who will promptly ignore them and apply the law of that country.

#174 Jetjordan

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 02:55 AM

View PostSerris, on 04 February 2013 - 11:45 PM, said:

tbh, a user agreement holds no legal sway whatsoever. it's some pretty words they put there, but if something gets taken to court, you can throw all the EULA's at the judge, who will promptly ignore them and apply the law of that country.

sweet, please go to court with this.  Tell us how that works out for you.

#175 Red_Falcon

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 04:26 AM

View PostJetjordan, on 04 February 2013 - 10:48 PM, said:

you should read a user agreement before you make serious claims like these.

EULAs are toilet paper in courts.

View Postchristiansoldier, on 04 February 2013 - 10:47 PM, said:

??? We are talking about the Daily Achievements and laurels right?  How can you compare bait and switch laws to a game mechanic? One is real life and the other is a game activity.  That is like complaining that Parker Brothers is unfair because they let criminals get out of jail for free because they got lucky and have a card or it is unjust to just pay someone $10 for coming in second place in a beauty contest.

A "game" is a market product like apples, watches or dishwashing machines.  
And therefore it must abide market all rules.

In my nation, if you sell a cellphone saying it does not contain commercials and it does, the judge will stop the item's production and give severe penalties to the company responsible.
Similarly, if GW2 was in my nation and sold a game saying it would not contain fetch quests or gear treadmills and it does, the same would happen.

It's daily routine for civilized countries with proper market rules and consumer protection.
You cannot bullshit customers with falsehood to sell them products different than what you claimed, you get punishment for it; infact Anet still offers refunds to people who call them out on bait and switch.
I'm sorry you believe sellers should have the power to lie and piss on your head at will.

Edited by Red_Falcon, 05 February 2013 - 04:30 AM.


#176 christiansoldier

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 06:06 AM

View PostRed_Falcon, on 05 February 2013 - 04:26 AM, said:

A "game" is a market product like apples, watches or dishwashing machines.  
And therefore it must abide market all rules.

In my nation, if you sell a cellphone saying it does not contain commercials and it does, the judge will stop the item's production and give severe penalties to the company responsible.
Similarly, if GW2 was in my nation and sold a game saying it would not contain fetch quests or gear treadmills and it does, the same would happen.

It's daily routine for civilized countries with proper market rules and consumer protection.
You cannot bullshit customers with falsehood to sell them products different than what you claimed, you get punishment for it; infact Anet still offers refunds to people who call them out on bait and switch.
I'm sorry you believe sellers should have the power to lie and piss on your head at will.

Well that answers my question.  We are definately not talking about the new Daily Achievements and laurels.  You are obviously talking about some other beef you have with the game. Since I do not know your history and only have your current reply to go by it seems you are upset, implying ArenaNet has misrepresented the game to you.  It seems you believe that they promised or advertised no "fetch quests" or "gear treadmills".   To be honest I do not even know what those terms mean but I will accept your premise that they exist in the game.  I do not know the legal implications of your claims.  I have no law background other than a single first year business law course. Your claim may very well be valid especially since you are pointing out you live in a country with very strict business advertising laws.   My only comment relating to your claim would be I am sure that if you spoke to a lawyer in your country or mine they would probably point out that if you plan on taking legal action against ArenaNet your best course of action would be to file a claim in a court of law and not publically voice your case.  To rant online would probably not add any positives  to the potential success of your case and it may only make things worse.

Just to clarify your last assumption.  I do not think that sellers have the right to lie and piss on people's head at will.  Lying is wrong and the other thing is a whole other topic.  Some people pay good money for it. My problem was I naively believed that Arenanet was selling me a computer game and that is pretty much what I got.

Edited by christiansoldier, 05 February 2013 - 06:07 AM.


#177 AsgarZigel

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 08:28 AM

They're fine. If they implement the "have to do only 4 out of 6" thing it's even better.
The healer and underwater one can be annoying, but at least I don't have to do the kill variety every day... was the most annoying of the old ones.
The Laurels are an extra incentive to do the dailies and I can see the problem if people feel like they have to do them. I don't mind it so far.

#178 XPhiler

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 08:49 AM

View PostRed_Falcon, on 05 February 2013 - 04:26 AM, said:

EULAs are toilet paper in courts.



A "game" is a market product like apples, watches or dishwashing machines.  
And therefore it must abide market all rules.

In my nation, if you sell a cellphone saying it does not contain commercials and it does, the judge will stop the item's production and give severe penalties to the company responsible.
Similarly, if GW2 was in my nation and sold a game saying it would not contain fetch quests or gear treadmills and it does, the same would happen.

It's daily routine for civilized countries with proper market rules and consumer protection.
You cannot bullshit customers with falsehood to sell them products different than what you claimed, you get punishment for it; infact Anet still offers refunds to people who call them out on bait and switch.
I'm sorry you believe sellers should have the power to lie and piss on your head at will.

Afraid you're wrong Eulas are generally valid in court. The only case where they're not is in situations where you are forced to make a purchase before you can even see the Eula. In such a case the Eula is not valid for obvious reason, you cannot agree to something you dont know what it is. In case of Gw2 this is a none issue since you can easily check the Eula before you buy (Eula is linked on every single page on the website)

That being said it was also ruled in a class action suite against sony that sony was allowed to change a core feature of the playstation 3 (basically sony decided to stop allowing Linux to be installed on the playstation 3 one day a feature that was heavily marketed when the ps3 came out) Sony won.

Besides I honeslty dont see this bait and switch situation you claim there is. For starters amulates arent exclusively available through laurel vender. There is one thats craftable (okey takes a huge effort but its there), secondly ascended gear isnt required to play any content so your decision to pursuit it is yours and yours alone, Thirdly they're still in the process of fully deploying ascended gear. Eventually it will be available through all type of content like anything else.

#179 XPhiler

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 08:56 AM

View PostRed_Falcon, on 04 February 2013 - 09:44 PM, said:

Everything in the world has some people that complain about it.
The difference is that if Anet went that way, they would be coherent with their claims that GW2 would have no grinds/fetch quests.

Actually if they did no grinds and fetch quests they would have also lied because the core of their phylosofy is play the way you want and some people like dungeons and PvP other people might like grinds and fetch quests. The only option to stay true to the manifesto is make everything optional and allow everything to be aquired anyway players want.

Ascended gear is totally optional but isnt there yet when it comes to aquiring it any way you want of course but thats because its still work in progress.

#180 raspberry jam

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 09:22 AM

View PostXPhiler, on 04 February 2013 - 07:31 PM, said:

I agree thats precisely the entire problem. People conditioning themselves in believing they're grinding because of their inability to just play the game for fun rather then the numbers. Example they're totally happy of drinking 5 coffees a day and will do it regardless but if you ask them to drink 5 coffees a day then riot!

Of course the irony of this all if gw2 were to hide from you what you require to complete the daily achievement you'd get yet a different kind of riot.

I am sorry but in situation like these it isnt the game that require fixing but people's attitude. What can Anet do about something like this?
I think that the key is "unexpected and informational" feedback instead of "expected and contingent"... It's not about removing the daily counter, it's about removing the daily. The problem isn't just the 0/5, 1/5, 2/5... It's that you expect to get rewarded for your fifth cup of coffee every day. That makes it feel as if the choice to drink five per day is removed. Even worse, it makes it feel that since you don't get rewarded for your sixth (and above) cup, it makes it feel as if every cup past your fifth is somehow less worth than the first five.

So in other words, getting a sudden, one-time, unexpected popup that says "hey, you're the foundation of the coffee industry!" and a karma jug or gold or whatevers, would be good and feel like you are appreciated, instead of making coffee consumption feel like a job.
But... you can't do that with a daily. Even if you hide the count, players will still know that drinking 5 cups per day will result in a completed daily. That expectation is what makes it feel like a chore.

Unfortunately the easiest possible way is to remove the dailies altogether.

Alternatively, have a large amount of "achievement quests", and let each character in the game get a new random one - except it's hidden, you don't know what you are supposed to do. When you have completed that "quest", you get a popup and a new random thing to do. The problem with that is that it is unfair, and that some people actually like knowing what things are rewarding. That can be minimized by keeping the rewards low... It should be more about getting a verbal (intangible, like a popup that congratulates you for drinking coffee) reward than an actual tangible in-game one.

View Postchristiansoldier, on 04 February 2013 - 07:34 PM, said:

Do you think that is true with the masses?  My co-workers and friends that play the game really enjoy it.  They are all casual players that are not spending their lives in a game.  The complaints I see on this forum are totally different from what I see in real life and what I experience in the game.  I think if you feel the need to do all the dailies, monthlies buy/get  the best exotic/ascended gear it becomes more of a job than a game.  When I read about some of the hours that players put into this game I am shocked. I have read some players putting more that 40 hours a week into the game and then complaining about being bored of the content.  I worry when our developers have to do more than 40 hours a week.  Excessive overtime leads to burn out and bad code. Why would people expect different from playing a game excessively?
I think that some people are prone to see video games as a diversion, and others are prone to see it as their main hobby. It follows naturally that the latter, being more accustomed to the nature of their hobby, achieves a better understanding of it, just like a person who watches football three times per week is likely to understand the game better than someone who watches it once per year.

Said understanding brings with it a sense of that certain measure of purity is needed. Unfortunately, many games are impure in nature. GW2 is no exception here. This is not an insult, allow me to explain. "Pure" in this context would mean for example being held back only by your skill. Since GW2 is stat based, this would mean having max stats; anything less than that means that the player is not given the possibilities to overcome in-game challenges that s/he could be given.

And having max stats means being max level, having full exo/asc/inf gear, and so on. Only then can the character fully become an extension of the player into the in-game world... which is something that "the masses" in many cases don't even consider. In fact, many people who consider video games their main hobby don't consciously consider it either... yet they work towards that goal as if they did.

So no, I don't think that it is true for "the masses". On the other hand, I do believe that the appreciation derived from gameplay increases with the appreciation of the nature of said gameplay.




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