805 replies to this topic

[El Duderino]

So let me get this straight, the argument is that you should be able to get the same amount of laurels in one day provided you put in the time it would take another player to log in every day and do the same thing?

I think that would pretty much destroy the whole concept of it being a daily challenge. Of course, one could argue that the monthly challenge makes up for this argument even thought you only get 10 laurels and not 30.

Personally, I think it boils down to people needing something to complain about - and it is always the new changes that make people complain.

That, and the fact that too many people believe they deserve everything and distort everything in ways to make it work for their argument.

It is a daily reward for those that choose to log in and do it on a daily basis. I can honestly say that I log in 5-6 days a week and do the daily challenge about 3 of those days. Do I feel slighted? Not one bit. But then again, I consider myself to be a big boy.

[Resolve]

Pandora Misfit, on 09 February 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

I think that would pretty much destroy the whole concept of it being a daily challenge.

So? Would that really upset you?

[El Duderino]

Resolve, on 09 February 2013 - 04:11 PM, said:

So? Would that really upset you?

No, but apparently the idea of a daily challenge upsets you. I'm rather content.

I don't get butthurt by new content not fitting in to my ideal MMO utopia.

(edit for spelling mistake)

Edited by Pandora Misfit, 09 February 2013 - 04:17 PM.

[astromarmot]

Pandora Misfit, on 09 February 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

But then again, I consider myself to be a big boy.

Again with the veiled insults...what's up with that?  Can't you discuss this without the personal attacks?  It's a discussion, participate or don't, nothing here says we need to agree...I like to see changes that improve the game or enhance the experience, this one, in my opinion did the opposite...personally I keep getting this focus that I want these things...I don't care much about the rewards per sey, just don't understand why others are so opposed to allowing peeps to enjoy the game in whatever way they do...a person paying to get cheese, or a person who logs in 1000 hours straight, or a person who logs in 1 time a day every day for 3 years don't really impact the personal achievement of the other two methods...if you buy the cheese and I "earn" the cheese by my own definition of earning it, I feel fulfilled...in PVE I'm only "competing" with myself and my own self-imposed expectations...

[astromarmot]

Pandora Misfit, on 09 February 2013 - 04:16 PM, said:

I don't get butthurt by new content not fitting in to my ideal MMO utopia.

(edit for spelling mistake)

But apparently peeps disagreeing with you on the Internet very well may cause gluteal discomfort...

[El Duderino]

astromarmot, on 09 February 2013 - 04:26 PM, said:

Again with the veiled insults...what's up with that?  Can't you discuss this without the personal attacks?  It's a discussion, participate or don't, nothing here says we need to agree...I like to see changes that improve the game or enhance the experience, this one, in my opinion did the opposite...personally I keep getting this focus that I want these things...I don't care much about the rewards per sey, just don't understand why others are so opposed to allowing peeps to enjoy the game in whatever way they do...a person paying to get cheese, or a person who logs in 1000 hours straight, or a person who logs in 1 time a day every day for 3 years don't really impact the personal achievement of the other two methods...if you buy the cheese and I "earn" the cheese by my own definition of earning it, I feel fulfilled...in PVE I'm only "competing" with myself and my own self-imposed expectations...

What's this about cheese? I thought we were talking about a MMO?

astromarmot, on 09 February 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

But apparently peeps disagreeing with you on the Internet very well may cause gluteal discomfort...

Nope, I just think it is silly how upset everyone gets when they can't have it all.

It is a common problem that is an underlying theme with most people that don't want to make the effort to get something that is easily attainable with a little dedication.

(I will refrain from using the term work because I know that you don't consider games and work to be able to coincide with one another.)

Basically, it boils down to the fact that people that feel the way you do remind me of the looters from "Atlas Shrugged".

Who is John Galt?

[Ritualist]

Pandora Misfit, on 09 February 2013 - 04:50 PM, said:

It is a common problem that is an underlying theme with most people that don't want to make the effort to get something that is easily attainable with a little dedication.

People are arguing that the game should recognize different kinds of dedication rather than demanding free shit.

[El Duderino]

Protoss, on 09 February 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

People are arguing that the game should recognize different kinds of dedication rather than demanding free shit.

Don't they already by having a daily and monthly achievement?

[astromarmot]

Pandora Misfit, on 09 February 2013 - 04:50 PM, said:

What's this about cheese? I thought we were talking about a MMO?



Nope, I just think it is silly how upset everyone gets when they can't have it all.

It is a common problem that is an underlying theme with most people that don't want to make the effort to get something that is easily attainable with a little dedication.

(I will refrain from using the term work because I know that you don't consider games and work to be able to coincide with one another.)

In a game like GW2 it's all just cheese for running the maze or spinning the hamster wheel, friend...
and if/when a game feels like work, it's a poorly designed game, IMO, but then again, that works just fine for some folks, see Eve...

Quote

Basically, it boils down to the fact that people that feel the way you do remind me of the looters from "Atlas Shrugged".

Who is John Galt?

There you go again...how does one mooch off your accomplishments in a video game outside of some guild or such nonsense(or maybe I suppose the world bonuses from WvW, but there's no choice in that "welfare")...looters implies that one takes something from another...

[astromarmot]

Pandora Misfit, on 09 February 2013 - 05:03 PM, said:

Don't they already by having a daily and monthly achievement?

Again, how does  a person who logs in 30 minutes a day for 7 days contribute more to the game than someone who lcan only log in for 8 hours on Saturday?  And the monthly has some pretty specific chit too...some people don't care for dungeons...or some don't like WvW...but that's ok it's only 10 laurels in any event and it's encouraging peeps to step outside of their norm to interact with actual parts of the game that might enhance the overall community...the daily rez and daily dodge do nothing of the sort...which is where the majority of this discussion is founded...

[Ritualist]

Pandora Misfit, on 09 February 2013 - 05:03 PM, said:

Don't they already by having a daily and monthly achievement?

As mentioned above, the daily and monthly demand a very specific kind of dedication. And to make matters worse, the dedication that the daily currently demands is not only very specific, but it's even more specific than it was before the change.
So what folks are asking is what makes the dedication currently demanded for dailies so unique that it deserves being rewarded over other kinds of dedication.

[chuckles79]

How can this be an argument?  Every daily can be completed < 1 hour; with the possible exception of the dodging (not that hard but you have to find a crowded DE or brawl in WvW.)
Some people already have 35+ laurels and people will continue to get more.  It's something to shoot for if you just have to do some sort of grinding for gear, only it's hardly a grind when 80% of the dailies are things you already do.

Edited by chuckles79, 09 February 2013 - 05:15 PM.

[El Duderino]

Protoss, on 09 February 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

People are arguing that the game should recognize different kinds of dedication rather than demanding free shit.

Protoss, on 09 February 2013 - 05:13 PM, said:

As mentioned above, the daily and monthly demand a very specific kind of dedication. And to make matters worse, the dedication that the daily currently demands is not only very specific, but it's even more specific than it was before the change.
So what folks are asking is what makes the dedication currently demanded for dailies so unique that it deserves being rewarded over other kinds of dedication.

So basically, you want to be able to do whatever you want to do and get the same stuff as everyone else.

I got it. You don't want anything to be special. You want everyone to be equal.

That way, the people that want to work hard, play hard, dedicate themselves more (pick one, I know people detest working in a game!) shouldn't be able to have anything special for doing something specific?

Yep. That sounds good. I think I should be able to flip hamburgers and get paid the same as doctors too. That way we can all be special together and no one will ever be better than someone else. That would be AWESOME. (/sarcasm)

Now, go read "Harrison Bergeron" by Kurt Vonnegut and see if that is the world you want to live in. You seem to like the idea

[El Duderino]

astromarmot, on 09 February 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:

In a game like GW2 it's all just cheese for running the maze or spinning the hamster wheel, friend...
and if/when a game feels like work, it's a poorly designed game, IMO, but then again, that works just fine for some folks, see Eve...

There are plenty of games out there. I'm sure another might not feel like work.

Or, you could not do the things that feel like work, enjoy yourself, and forget about what you are missing out on.

And, if you decide you REALLY want those things, you can work to get them and be proud of yourself for being rewarded for your dedication.

Again, all I hear is that you think everyone should have access to everything and we can all be exactly the same because no one should work for anything just because its a game.

I suppose we should all be named chess masters too, this way no one ever has to work hard to learn the game of chess and get better at it. I mean, it is a game right? It shouldn't be work to get better? Right? (/sarcasm)

astromarmot, on 09 February 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:

There you go again...how does one mooch off your accomplishments in a video game outside of some guild or such nonsense(or maybe I suppose the world bonuses from WvW, but there's no choice in that "welfare")...looters implies that one takes something from another...

Uhm, if you read the book, you would understand. That is why I mentioned what book the term came from. Hell, just wiki it as I'm sure it would be too much WORK to read. You probably wouldn't enjoy it anyways.

But, yes, is it a crime to be able to accomplish more than others and feel good about it? Heck, even be able to flaunt it? Not unless you can't handle not having everything everyone else has.

astromarmot, on 09 February 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

Again, how does  a person who logs in 30 minutes a day for 7 days contribute more to the game than someone who lcan only log in for 8 hours on Saturday?  And the monthly has some pretty specific chit too...some people don't care for dungeons...or some don't like WvW...but that's ok it's only 10 laurels in any event and it's encouraging peeps to step outside of their norm to interact with actual parts of the game that might enhance the overall community...the daily rez and daily dodge do nothing of the sort...which is where the majority of this discussion is founded...

So. Then. Don't. Do. The. Daily. And. Get. Over. It.

You. Don't. Have. To. Like. Everything.

This. Game. Was. Not. Designed. Just. For. You.

Get it yet?

[Dervo]

Protoss, on 09 February 2013 - 05:13 PM, said:

As mentioned above, the daily and monthly demand a very specific kind of dedication. And to make matters worse, the dedication that the daily currently demands is not only very specific, but it's even more specific than it was before the change.
So what folks are asking is what makes the dedication currently demanded for dailies so unique that it deserves being rewarded over other kinds of dedication.

Two very different types of dedication.  The monthly is more for those who log in and play for long spans of time in one day (say a weekend) and dailies are more for those who play a bit everyday.  Miss a day?  It happens, no big deal.  I feel the only reason why people are complaining is that it's the only way to get ascended amulets and utility infusions.  They want the shinies and they don't want to wait for dailies/monthlies to reset.

chuckles79, on 09 February 2013 - 05:15 PM, said:

How can this be an argument?  Every daily can be completed < 1 hour; with the possible exception of the dodging (not that hard but you have to find a crowded DE or brawl in WvW.)
Some people already have 35+ laurels and people will continue to get more.  It's something to shoot for if you just have to do some sort of grinding for gear, only it's hardly a grind when 80% of the dailies are things you already do.

Wait what, how do people have 35+ laurels?  By my count, 22 is the max that people could have (or maybe 23, I'd have to log in to check).  Is there something I'm missing?

[Ritualist]

Pandora Misfit, on 09 February 2013 - 05:28 PM, said:

So basically, you want to be able to do whatever you want to do and get the same stuff as everyone else.

I got it. You don't want anything to be special. You want everyone to be equal.

That way, the people that want to work hard, play hard, dedicate themselves more (pick one, I know people detest working in a game!) shouldn't be able to have anything special for doing something specific?

Yep. That sounds good. I think I should be able to flip hamburgers and get paid the same as doctors too. That way we can all be special together and no one will ever be better than someone else. That would be AWESOME. (/sarcasm)

Now, go read "Harrison Bergeron" by Kurt Vonnegut and see if that is the world you want to live in. You seem to like the idea

Cash = time.
Power plateau.
Not only a power plateau, but an accessible power plateau.
No grind for PvP gear.
Dailies initially being implemented as a tool that helps casuals from feeling like they are being left behind.

I don't think GW2 is the game you think it is.

[El Duderino]

Protoss, on 09 February 2013 - 05:40 PM, said:

Cash = time.
Power plateau.
Not only a power plateau, but an accessible power plateau.
No grind for PvP gear.
Dailies initially being implemented as a tool that helps casuals from feeling like they are being left behind.

I don't think GW2 is the game you think it is.

Is there a point to your incoherent ramblings?

Also, can you link to the post from ANet that asserts the bolded part of your quote?

[chuckles79]

Dervo, on 09 February 2013 - 05:35 PM, said:

Wait what, how do people have 35+ laurels?  By my count, 22 is the max that people could have (or maybe 23, I'd have to log in to check).  Is there something I'm missing?

People who waited until the last minute to do their January monthly = 10 laurels
People who probably bought items to salvage = 10 laurels
Number of dailies possible to have completed = 13

sorry, short by two days.  Point is, if you want them they will come easily.

[astromarmot]

Pandora Misfit, on 09 February 2013 - 05:35 PM, said:

There are plenty of games out there. I'm sure another might not feel like work.

Or, you could not do the things that feel like work, enjoy yourself, and forget about what you are missing out on.

And, if you decide you REALLY want those things, you can work to get them and be proud of yourself for being rewarded for your dedication.

Again, all I hear is that you think everyone should have access to everything and we can all be exactly the same because no one should work for anything just because its a game.

I suppose we should all be named chess masters too, this way no one ever has to work hard to learn the game of chess and get better at it. I mean, it is a game right? It shouldn't be work to get better? Right? (/sarcasm)



Uhm, if you read the book, you would understand. That is why I mentioned what book the term came from. Hell, just wiki it as I'm sure it would be too much WORK to read. You probably wouldn't enjoy it anyways.

But, yes, is it a crime to be able to accomplish more than others and feel good about it? Heck, even be able to flaunt it? Not unless you can't handle not having everything everyone else has.



So. Then. Don't. Do. The. Daily. And. Get. Over. It.

You. Don't. Have. To. Like. Everything.

This. Game. Was. Not. Designed. Just. For. You.

Get it yet?

And you don't need to discuss this if you can't engage in useful discourse...what part of agreeing to disagree are you not grasping?  And in a RL society to live, to eat, to have shelter, to have stuff etc one must either work for them or  one must take from someone who worked for such things...that's the premise of Atlas Shrugged...in a video game, those things are ethereal, not real, not tangible(outside of the expanded idea that the developers "created" the game world)  so one acquiring them for "nothing" does not loot or mooch from any other player in the game...hence it's not a good metaphor...it seems in an MMO video game it's actually the absence of others having "stuff" that gives you your perceived value to your "stuff"  Its not that you want it to have it, but instead because other don't have it...thats the mindset, in the game environment, that I dont understand...if you feel you earned the cheese, and it was worth the effort you put in, why do you care how the rest of the mice got their cheese?

[Lordkrall]

chuckles79, on 09 February 2013 - 05:48 PM, said:

People who waited until the last minute to do their January monthly = 10 laurels
People who probably bought items to salvage = 10 laurels
Number of dailies possible to have completed = 13

sorry, short by two days.  Point is, if you want them they will come easily.

Incorrect.
January Monthly did not reward Laurels.

[astromarmot]

BTW Misfit, I'm curious, have you never had a negative comment/opinion regarding something in the game or a change in the game?

[El Duderino]

astromarmot, on 09 February 2013 - 05:48 PM, said:

And you don't need to discuss this if you can't engage in useful discourse...what part of agreeing to disagree are you not grasping?  And in a RL society to live, to eat, to have shelter, to have stuff etc one must either work for them or  one must take from someone who worked for such things...that's the premise of Atlas Shrugged...in a video game, those things are ethereal, not real, not tangible(outside of the expanded idea that the developers "created" the game world)  so one acquiring them for "nothing" does not loot or mooch from any other player in the game...hence it's not a good metaphor...it seems in an MMO video game it's actually the absence of others having "stuff" that gives you your perceived value to your "stuff"  Its not that you want it to have it, but instead because other don't have it...thats the mindset, in the game environment, that I dont understand...if you feel you earned the cheese, and it was worth the effort you put in, why do you care how the rest of the mice got their cheese?

That's not the premise, but that is OK. I'm done with this conversation.

I'm sure if you keep pissing and moaning enough someone at ANet might care and change the game just to make you happy.

I'm sorry that Guild Wars doesn't serve up everything on a silver platter for you without you doing any work.

How dare any game make you work... in a game! It's just not fair, is it?

astromarmot, on 09 February 2013 - 05:58 PM, said:

BTW Misfit, I'm curious, have you never had a negative comment/opinion regarding something in the game or a change in the game?

Plenty, just nothing as stupid as daily achievement awards.

[astromarmot]

Pandora Misfit, on 09 February 2013 - 05:59 PM, said:

Plenty, just nothing as stupid as daily achievement awards.

But of course...adieu

[Ritualist]

Pandora Misfit, on 09 February 2013 - 05:43 PM, said:

Is there a point to your incoherent ramblings?

Also, can you link to the post from ANet that asserts the bolded part of your quote?

http://www.arena.net...elopment-update

Quote

Daily achievements ... They are very easy to accomplish, and players are expected to complete them in a short period of time ... and the numbers are skewed such that more casual players should finish a high percentage of them in an average play session ... This system makes the first couple of hours of play each day extremely productive and helps equalize experience and gold gain between casual and hardcore players.

Interestingly enough, they were mentioned before this post because I distinctly remember being insanely disappointed by A.Net for using the term "the first couple of hours" after talking about a MUCH smaller time-frame previously.


EDIT:
As for my "incoherent ramblings", they are ideas that are already incorporated into the game and are in direct contradiction with how you imagine GW2 should be. Hence why, "I don't think GW2 is the game you think it is. ".

Edited by Protoss, 09 February 2013 - 07:30 PM.

[Craywulf]

astromarmot, on 09 February 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

Again, how does  a person who logs in 30 minutes a day for 7 days contribute more to the game than someone who lcan only log in for 8 hours on Saturday?  And the monthly has some pretty specific chit too...some people don't care for dungeons...or some don't like WvW...but that's ok it's only 10 laurels in any event and it's encouraging peeps to step outside of their norm to interact with actual parts of the game that might enhance the overall community...the daily rez and daily dodge do nothing of the sort...which is where the majority of this discussion is founded...

Why does it matter how much or how often OTHER people log in? Why do you need to compare OTHERS to determine what is fair? Why not just deal with the system in place in your own way. If you gotta step outside your norm...then so be it. That's the price to pay to do the Achievements.

ArenaNet isn't a catering service.

[Dervo]

chuckles79, on 09 February 2013 - 05:48 PM, said:

People who waited until the last minute to do their January monthly = 10 laurels
People who probably bought items to salvage = 10 laurels
Number of dailies possible to have completed = 13

sorry, short by two days.  Point is, if you want them they will come easily.

Ah, so I wasn't missing anything, you were just making some incorrect assumptions.  I wish anet made their comments easier to track, since at one point they said that the January achievement would not give out laurels no matter at what time it's completed.  There'd be less misinformation if stuff like that was more visible, but the dev quotes on their forums are buried under info most people wouldn't want to bother with.

Lordkrall, on 09 February 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

Incorrect.
January Monthly did not reward Laurels.

QFT.

[DarkGhostGizmoXx]

I'm not exactly sure what there is to complain about...
The DAILY reward can be easily completed by most people DAILY, and people are moaning that people who log into the game are rewarded more than people who play just for 1 whole day?
I thought the whole point of DAILY rewards was that they're designed for the casual player? Which, by the way, is the opposite of dungeons...so everyone has something to do...it's not as if the rewards are anything that can't be completed any other way (except for the minis...but I don't think minis are a reason to complain)

[Dervo]

DarkGhostGizmoXx, on 09 February 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

I'm not exactly sure what there is to complain about...
The DAILY reward can be easily completed by most people DAILY, and people are moaning that people who log into the game are rewarded more than people who play just for 1 whole day?
I thought the whole point of DAILY rewards was that they're designed for the casual player? Which, by the way, is the opposite of dungeons...so everyone has something to do...it's not as if the rewards are anything that can't be completed any other way (except for the minis...but I don't think minis are a reason to complain)

Guess I should repeat this as you didn't notice it:  I feel the only reason why people are complaining is that it's the only way to get ascended amulets and utility infusions.  They want the shinies and they don't want to wait for dailies/monthlies to reset.

There is a reason to complain, but frankly I think in time this will be less important than people imagine it is now.  Of course, there will probably be more complaining when the next way to get ascended gear comes out.  Because no matter what it is in the game, someone won't enjoy doing it.  Hopefully they start getting more options for the ascended gear we already have, and have 2-3 ways of getting the weapons and armor if/when they do come out.

[Archon_Wing]

I absolutely despise the daily healer thing because it shows up too much.

The rest are fine, though underwater is on the meh side.

[astromarmot]

Craywulf, on 09 February 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

Why does it matter how much or how often OTHER people log in? Why do you need to compare OTHERS to determine what is fair? Why not just deal with the system in place in your own way. If you gotta step outside your norm...then so be it. That's the price to pay to do the Achievements.

ArenaNet isn't a catering service.

Again, for the FSM only knows how manyth time, does it or does it not improve the game?  It's not a comparison, I, let me repeat, I do not give two hoots about the cheese, I've suggested that the change, instead of improving the community by incentivizing positive behavior in the game, or attracting additional playing of the game(in general) is rather just dumb activities that detract in some cases rather than add to the game...most of my characters have generic crafted stuff, I don't need to look pretty, but I can understand those who might...GW2 makes a decent platform for those who like RP, so if they want the cheese to enhance that, and want to pay(which goes to fund future enhancements of the game) who cares, if you really need to feel above others, a badge indicating your level of effort works just as well,...if a person just logging in for 30 minutes improved the game, I'd say bully, do it, but these dailies, In my opinion, do not add to the game, rather quite the opposite in  some cases in the mid-lower levels...discussing the pros and cons of a system, or a change doesn't constitute complaining, particularly in a game where community input guides the future course of the game...I get that you're ok with the change, and I acknowledge that no amount of discussion here will sway your mind,..why is it so difficult for peeps to understand that there are more than one side to things in an evolving product such as an MMO, and the only way to improve that the only way to innovate is to...dare I say "Question Everything?