805 replies to this topic

[Gli]

Fizzypop, on 13 February 2013 - 03:21 PM, said:

Then I'm guessing you never played GW1...because you pretty much got top level gear for just playing the game. I was in top level gear before I even hit max level. I'm just thrilled they sort of kept their promise and allowed easier access to it. Once they add in other ways to get the currency then it'll be perfect. You probably should've expected it considering their previous game and the fact they specifically said they were going to add it to other portions of the game. I still don't get how this damages the game. So you don't like it? Cool you can get your gear from fractals. Everyone's happy! Now how hard was that?

I played GW1 a lot, and I don't remember GW1 having mechanisms like requiring daily quotas of what should be incidental content as the only way to get a pair of top level boots.

Such required daily repetitions are the exact opposite of accessibility to me.

You're defending the implementation by quoting a general principle, or in other words, saying that the end justifies the means. It's very easy to implement a principle badly. For example, adding an NPC that gives everything you want that exists in the game for free just for talking to him, would also be a doubtful way to implement "easy access" to max level gear. The thing is, if the means are unpleasant, the game stops being attractive, because games shouldn't be unpleasant.

Edited by Gli, 13 February 2013 - 03:59 PM.

[Resolve]

El Duderino, on 13 February 2013 - 03:25 PM, said:

Perhaps it's your reading comprehension skills that are lacking.

It has been said over and over than dailies are beneficial because it allows the casual player to access high end items through normal play.

This isn't a hard concept to grasp.

Furthermore, dailies are EXTREMELY easy to complete without devoting much attention to them.

Most people can complete 80% of their dailies though normal play, which is why it is so beneficial. There is little to no grind. Simply log on and play. Wait your daily isn't quite complete? Great, take a couple minutes to compete it and you get a pretty awesome reward just for playing that day.

Ok ok, so some people don't play every day and want to be able to access the same amount of laurels provides they put in the same amount of time. However, that where a grind actually begins. It would take that person at least 4 hours to complete all of the daily requirements for a week in one day. By then they wouldn't be able to get much more accomplished because it goes past casual play an into dedicated daily achievement mode.

Overall the system is pretty darn good, and it's going to get better.

So why not just have it as a token system similar to the dungeon one? You know what would be great for the 'casual' player that you're so worried about? Being able to get the tokens whenever they wanted, and not having to log on every day.

El Duderino, on 13 February 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

Really? You actually think that?

You think that the weekend warriors spend MORE or EQUAL time to people who play daily?

Wake up bro.

There are people who log on solely to do the daily, so yes.

Volkon, on 13 February 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

Accessibility. Laurels for simple daily takes to get ascended gear does two things... it fills the time gap between exotics and legendary weapons and it helps keep ascended gear accessible to anyone willing to put in the time to get them. No player is cut off from being able to get ascended gear. Just simply completing the dailies puts you on the path for this gear (the rings of which you can get more quickly running Fractals if you wish). One of the most basic tenets of the Manifesto was keeping the game accessible to everyone, and by this system they're doing exactly that. There is a time factor... you'll need a minimum of about three weeks worth of played days to get a 30 laurel item, which really isn't that bad.

None of this helps the casual player and it's odd that you think Anet even care about them any more. They listened to the whiners who 'had nothing to do' once they hit 80 and added ascended gear, that was pretty much the start of the end for casual players.

It's fine though, because the casual player probably doesn't care about any of this anyway, it's just funny that the best anyone can come up with for a pro of this system is 'it helps the casuals'.

[El Duderino]

Gli, on 13 February 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

But it didn't. All it did was put quotas on things people are fond of claiming they we're doing already. And whenever I fail to meet a particular quotum, I need to go do that thing more often than I would have. I'd say that is the exact opposite of variety: it's repetition.

You are talking about two different things here, you can't talk about the new dailies without talking about the rewards.

The idea of adding extremely valuable rewards that lie somewhere between exotics and legendaries, by adding a fairly easy mechanic to accomplish most definitely increases variety for everyone.

Do you honestly think it should be easier to be rewarded with something such as an ascended item? The ratio of time spent to level of reward is so very low that if anyone considers it a grind, then they are flat out wrong.

Gli, on 13 February 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

I don't consider incentive to repeat otherwise useless, uninspired and pedestrian tasks on a daily basis a good thing.

Most people can accomplish much of the daily requirements just through normal play. You say yourself that you would prefer to be able to complete 4 out of 6 challenges and that your daily play would pretty much cover those requisites. Well, again, the fact that you have to go out of your way for 2 challenges to achieve the level of reward that laurels provides is still so far form a grind that it really isn't worth arguing.

You simply cannot find a better ratio of time spent to reward received in this game. Therefore, any mention of grind or repetition pretty much is pointless because everything else in the game requires more "grind" that is even close to being worth the same.

Gli, on 13 February 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

Again, it didn't. It requires me to repeatedly spend more time on a very limited number of pointless activities. I could either spend that time to do something more interesting in the game, or outside of the game. I could do my events on solid ground or underwater, I could make my kills on solid ground or underwater, I could do my gathering on solid ground or underwater. Broad scope. Now I have to sometimes do things underwater that I could do anywhere before. Smaller scope. Putting quotas on acitvities never opens up possibilities. It restricts. Putting quotas on more specific things, restricts more.

Again, it doesn't REQUIRE you to do anything, unless you want the reward. And, that goes back to the original counter-argument. The reward is such a good reward that the ratio of time spent to reward gained is the lowest in the game. Therefore, it really shouldn't be worth arguing about because the actual cost of the item vs. its power is quite good.

Gli, on 13 February 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

Not me, I want to not care about doing my dailies again, but that's not going to happen. Trivial rewards for trivial tasks, that's how they were, and that was fine, but that ship has sailed. I have no faith that any system of dailies won't become a checklist of boring, oft-repeated chores before long. The best thing they'll ever be for me in the future is a series of painless criteria that are sometimes met through serendipity while I play "my way". The current ones have never fully completed themselves spontaneously for me yet, I do have some hope that a 4-out-of-6 system will sometimes allow for that.

Again, you have said the same thing over and over so I will point to my rebuttals above.

If you find that you are completing 4-out-of-6 of the challenges through daily play, why is it such a chore to do two more considering how good the reward is?

This is why I come to my conclusion that most of the people here would rather get great rewards for nothing. Because, the rewards you are being given for next to no effort are really fantastic. Hence, why everyone is after them and whining about them - and why everyone should really just spend the time they are using to whine on the forums and log on to the game and complete the rest of their daily.

Conclusion: This ain't that hard people!

[El Duderino]

Resolve, on 13 February 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:

So why not just have it as a token system similar to the dungeon one? You know what would be great for the 'casual' player that you're so worried about? Being able to get the tokens whenever they wanted, and not having to log on every day.

So, you think that there should be no cap on the amount of laurels that one can earn in a day?

Resolve, on 13 February 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:

There are people who log on solely to do the daily, so yes.

You think that the majority of players in the game log in daily just to get their daily achievement and leave when completed?

Resolve, on 13 February 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:

None of this helps the casual player and it's odd that you think Anet even care about them any more. They listened to the whiners who 'had nothing to do' once they hit 80 and added ascended gear, that was pretty much the start of the end for casual players.

It's fine though, because the casual player probably doesn't care about any of this anyway, it's just funny that the best anyone can come up with for a pro of this system is 'it helps the casuals'.

So, it doesn't help casual players to add a mechanic to get nearly the best gear in the game by doing things they should be able to accomplish through regular play? And then capping it to a daily achievement, therefore making sure that everyone is equal and hardcore players can't grind out the same rewards in a fraction of the time?

I fail to see your argument here.

Edited by Ethereal, 13 February 2013 - 06:40 PM.
Edited to remove insult. Please appropriately defend your stance without insulting others.

[astromarmot]

El Duderino, on 13 February 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

and why everyone should really just spend the time they are using to whine on the forums and log on to the game and complete the rest of their daily.

Why assume that time spent with forum accessibility equals time available for playing the game?  For many of us, those are leagues apart...I'm not sure there's all that many peeps( other than those who have quit the game, yet feel compelled to berate it on the forums) who post when they could be playing...

[XPhiler]

Gli, on 13 February 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

But it didn't. All it did was put quotas on things people are fond of claiming they we're doing already. And whenever I fail to meet a particular quotum, I need to go do that thing more often than I would have. I'd say that is the exact opposite of variety: it's repetition.

I don't consider incentive to repeat otherwise useless, uninspired and pedestrian tasks on a daily basis a good thing.

Again, it didn't. It requires me to repeatedly spend more time on a very limited number of pointless activities. I could either spend that time to do something more interesting in the game, or outside of the game. I could do my events on solid ground or underwater, I could make my kills on solid ground or underwater, I could do my gathering on solid ground or underwater. Broad scope. Now I have to sometimes do things underwater that I could do anywhere before. Smaller scope. Putting quotas on acitvities never opens up possibilities. It restricts. Putting quotas on more specific things, restricts more.


Not me, I want to not care about doing my dailies again, but that's not going to happen. Trivial rewards for trivial tasks, that's how they were, and that was fine, but that ship has sailed. I have no faith that any system of dailies won't become a checklist of boring, oft-repeated chores before long. The best thing they'll ever be for me in the future is a series of painless criteria that are sometimes met through serendipity while I play "my way". The current ones have never fully completed themselves spontaneously for me yet, I do have some hope that a 4-out-of-6 system will sometimes allow for that.

It depends on how you look at it. You're saying that it didnt add variety and correct me if i am wrong, because you're looking at it from a non daily point of view. You're saying anything the new dailies require is stuff you used to do all the time anyway so there is no change per se. That is true and not at the same time. let me start from the major change which comes when you take the point of view of people looking at the daily achievement itself as a task.When seeing the daily as a  task these player accomplish directly for the last 6 months that meant finishing off 5 events, killing 60 mobs, killing 15 different type of mobs and gathering 20 materials, day after day after day. Right now there is a little change for these people to enjoy that allows them to vary their play style a little bit. Even going back to what I am assuming your point of view to be that is if you see the daily achievement as an extention to your normal playstyle it has most likely given you a little variety by pulling you in specific areas of the game which I know is not just a good thing but also a bad thing like many posts explained. Anyhow People Ressed before but now you might visit areas that have massacared npcs more just to make it easier. You might end up doing more underwater content to get the aquatic achievement. Simply speaking you might deviate your paths a little to help finish off the daily. I am not saying changing your playstyle entirely, dont believe thats really necessary and thats certainly not what I am talking about, I am refering more to the geolocation where you play what you enjoy playing more then anything else. It also provided variety in terms of tasks, a lot of complaints said that they simply refuse to craft. This might make them start. It might not lead anywhere because they dont enjoy such a task, its quite possible but you never know. The requirements are light enough to make this a non issue imho

They are useless and pedestrian right now that have to be designed to be accessable to everyone. I dont find them interesting either but I am hoping that with the upcoming change, once accessability will no longer be required over every single daily task Anet can put some challenging and interesting task for people to do. That being said I disagree. Its not a good thing for everyone maybe but making a game system, any game system, relevant to your game is a always a good thing for the game itself as long as whatever you gain from that system remains optional. I am saying this because ideally like exotic gear everything shouldnt be accessable in every way so people who can only play the game for short spans of time at a time should get the opportunity to progress doing just that. If my goal as a player is to aquire best in slot gear and the task I enjoy doing doesnt reward me with such gear I am either forced to change my goal or play content that isnt my first choice to play. Even dailies as they are they help out with this. For example if I am a player who likes to explore, by exploring alone I have no way of getting ascended gear and will be very hard to even get an exotic gear set. Exploring and completing the daily however can go very well hand in hand giving me an easier avenue to do both at the same time.

Thats the thing though. Before you were not happy with the dailies you just were happy to ignore them because to you they were irrelevant. Thing is some people enjoy dailies but they still had the same irrelevance that you experianced. IMHO to solve your issue the solution isnt to make dailies irrelevant again, that would be more damaging then benefitial to the game. No what I think would be best would be for whatever items you feel you need to get off dailies to be also achievable in whatever way you want to play. That way people who like dailies will still find them relevant and you'll be free to ignore them if they dont entice you. It also goes in line with the manifesto and I am quite confident that this is how things will be once ascended gear are fully deployed within the game.

[XPhiler]

Resolve, on 13 February 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:

So why not just have it as a token system similar to the dungeon one? You know what would be great for the 'casual' player that you're so worried about? Being able to get the tokens whenever they wanted, and not having to log on every day.



There are people who log on solely to do the daily, so yes.



None of this helps the casual player and it's odd that you think Anet even care about them any more. They listened to the whiners who 'had nothing to do' once they hit 80 and added ascended gear, that was pretty much the start of the end for casual players.

It's fine though, because the casual player probably doesn't care about any of this anyway, it's just funny that the best anyone can come up with for a pro of this system is 'it helps the casuals'.

I think you're very wrong about this. For starter laurels are essentially tokens. You just cant farm them and grinding isnt exactly a casual player trait either.

Even if you log in just to do the dailies thats still 30 - 45mins more game play per week then someone who has not logged on at all.

More then that the game is most certainly still geared towards casual play in many ways essentially the dailies. By limiting the amount of laurels you can get to 1 a day it ensures that someone who can play with 1 hr per day stays in line with someone who can play 8 hrs per day. Dailies allow you to get BiS gear without something that requires such high comittment like FoTM did which again is benefitial to a casual player. But perhaps more then that Gw2 is still geared towards casuals by allowing casual player to enjoy all the game has to offer even if they choose to ignore BiS gear altogether.

[Mastruq]

XPhiler, on 13 February 2013 - 02:24 PM, said:

Well technically speaking you can do that yourself. I mean if you dont want to play it until its implemented to the level you desire why not do that? No content in the world was made more difficult because now you can get an ascended amulet. So if you stay away from dailies until next month when you get to choose your dailies would be no different had arenanet did no updates to the daily system in january and released all at once in feburary.

Not saying you as in you personally but rather in general to people who believe there should be no intermediary stages of development.

Thing to keep in mind is no content is ever completed. The game is iterated upon, the new daily system will likely be further improved in the future as well.

Yea you are right, thats why I point out that it doesnt really bother me, just chatting on a forum about a game I like. Right now its new enough to keep me interested despite the dodging, gotta get my mini-pet wolf after all (not interested in ascended items, I dont even have full exotics and everything in the game is easy enough).

[Resolve]

El Duderino, on 13 February 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

So, you think that there should be no cap on the amount of laurels that one can earn in a day?

I'd like it if it were all in the monthly, obviously making the monthly have bigger requirements. Even a weekly would be better, with real goals and things that would gather people at content
Like say 'Participate in x dragon fights' 'cleanse grenth' etc. Actual game play. And then Anet could tie it in with their living story idea. So a zone could be overrun by enemies for that month and you fill up progress by fighting and doing events there. It would get people into old zones that have been mostly forgotten about.

El Duderino, on 13 February 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

You think that the majority of players in the game log in daily just to get their daily achievement and leave when completed?

Putting words in my mouth, come on buddy. I never said majority. The point is, the dailies don't indicate how much someone plays this game.

El Duderino, on 13 February 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

So, it doesn't help casual players to add a mechanic to get nearly the best gear in the game by doing things they should be able to accomplish through regular play? And then capping it to a daily achievement, therefore making sure that everyone is equal and hardcore players can't grind out the same rewards in a fraction of the time?

I fail to see your argument here.

Casual players will play what, once or twice a week? If you're logging on every day then you're probably not a casual player lol. It'll take them months to get anything from this system. Again, it's not for the casual players. It's to keep the hardcore people interested and logging in daily. It's very weird that you don't understand this.

[astromarmot]

Resolve, on 13 February 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

snip

Maybe it's kinda like what George Carlin said about drivers...anyone who plays less than me is casual, and anyone who plays more than me is an insanely hardcore fanboi... ;-)

[Resolve]

Mastruq, on 13 February 2013 - 04:26 PM, said:

Yea you are right, thats why I point out that it doesnt really bother me, just chatting on a forum about a game I like. Right now its new enough to keep me interested despite the dodging, gotta get my mini-pet wolf after all (not interested in ascended items, I dont even have full exotics and everything in the game is easy enough).

Yeah. I think some people have the idea that I'm frothing at the mouth in anger over this(hint: I'm not). There is every chance that this system will be amazing a couple of months down the track. Doesn't mean we can't voice our opinion and concerns now.

It would be great if people didn't take criticism against this game so personally.

[Volkon]

Resolve, on 13 February 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:

None of this helps the casual player and it's odd that you think Anet even care about them any more. They listened to the whiners who 'had nothing to do' once they hit 80 and added ascended gear, that was pretty much the start of the end for casual players.

It's fine though, because the casual player probably doesn't care about any of this anyway, it's just funny that the best anyone can come up with for a pro of this system is 'it helps the casuals'.

That doesn't make any sense. The dailies are more than accessible to casual players, and as a result ascended gear is accessible to casual players. Ascended gear is hardly the overly dramatic "start of the end for casual players" at all. Prior to this, it was... wait for it... two rings. Period. The average casual player is uneffected whatsoever by the addition of ascended gear, and before anything remotely resembling something that might consider affecting them they've become even more accessible to even the most casual of players that maybe gets in an hour or two every few days. Do the daily, viola. One step closer. As additional accessibility gets added, such as "choose the parts of the daily you wish to do", the accessibility increases, right in line with what was mentioned in the Manifesto.

[Fizzypop]

Gli, on 13 February 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

I played GW1 a lot, and I don't remember GW1 having mechanisms like requiring daily quotas of what should be incidental content as the only way to get a pair of top level boots.

Such required daily repetitions are the exact opposite of accessibility to me.

You're defending the implementation by quoting a general principle, or in other words, saying that the end justifies the means. It's very easy to implement a principle badly. For example, adding an NPC that gives everything you want that exists in the game for free just for talking to him, would also be a doubtful way to implement "easy access" to max level gear. The thing is, if the means are unpleasant, the game stops being attractive, because games shouldn't be unpleasant.

You can get every single piece of ascended gear from fractals except the necks...which probably isn't the best idea, but to be honest I don't feel bad for that because there was 2 months where unless you played fractals you couldn't get top gear. You don't have to do the dailies for the items. Do the fractals. They have said they'll add more ways to get this currency so you won't be forced to do the dailies! I'm sure with enough bitching they'll add the necks to the instances. So what exactly is your problem? If you don't like this way of obtaining it DONT DO IT. If you find it unpleasant DEAL. I found it very unpleasant that I couldn't get ascended items because I hated fractals. You told me that same thing...DEAL. So yeah now it's your turn. At least now there is more than one way to get said items. It is by no means perfect however. yeah, gw1 had the same shit. Selective memory?

Resolve, on 13 February 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

Casual players will play what, once or twice a week? If you're logging on every day then you're probably not a casual player lol. It'll take them months to get anything from this system. Again, it's not for the casual players. It's to keep the hardcore people interested and logging in daily. It's very weird that you don't understand this.

Um yeah no. You aren't casual because you only log in once or twice a week or you play X time only. You can't pin down casual players by some specific definition. I consider myself a casual player I log in 5-6 times a week I just don't play for very long. I also sometimes take week breaks. Yes, it'll take months to get something out of this...probably because they aren't done implementing it. They have already said they are going to add new ways to get the currency.

[Ritualist]

Volkon, on 13 February 2013 - 02:57 PM, said:

Convoluted? What was convoluted about it? You had exotics, which you can get in no time at all, and legendaries with the same stats that took forever for an individual. They added ascended as a time gap between the time needed to go from exotics to legendary and gave them marginally better stats to make it worth while for some people to go for. Legendary weapons will match ascended weapons when they're finally released. Within these tiers now will come the lateral progression as evident by the new ascended rings you can get for laurels. Same stats as Fractals ascended but a new way to get them.

I still giggle at this attitude regarding the new dailies being "less accessible". It used to be rare that I'd complete them, now I haven't missed one yet without exaggerating. I'm three laurels from my first amulet, actually, which is pretty cool... then probably a guestimated three weeks from getting the infusion I want for it. Now, that's also how I play, always out there doing stuff including lots of WvW, so the dodging, rezzing and other combat things are completely natural to me. Gathering is an afterthought... I'm not in combat, I see a node, I gather the node. Usually 60% of the daily is done before I realize that it switched. BUT... that's not the point. The point regarding accessibility is that they've added another means to get ascended items, and will be adding more in the future. The more ways they add to get them, the more accessible they become to anyone that wants to get them playing their way.

You didn't exactly have a "system of exotics" before the addition of ascended gear. We had an expansive system of gear that served absolutely no purpose other than to get in the way of getting max gear. The whole point of GW2's gear system before ascended gear was to expand on the grind and ascended gear just added the grind. So, "accessibility" isn't exactly the word I'd use to describe the GW2 gear system.
But if "accessibility" is the word of the day, I'd argue that simply making the gear in the game available through more options is the way to go, rather than adding a whole new set of gear, massively limiting how one gets it and then SLOWLY expanding the acquisition process.

As for individual players, I already acknowledged that certain players have it easier to do the daily now. And I am glad for you - when looking at dailies as a tool that gives people more options, that's what a change should do. The problem is that this change came with a cost - there are certain areas in the game (or even better, certain areas at certain times) that simply do not allow you to complete the daily. And that's the problem here: the goal here isn't to prevent you from completing the daily, the goal is to expand the daily so that it allows YOU and those of us that currently aren't allowed to do the daily, to complete it.

[Mastruq]

escada_assassin, on 13 February 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

IMO, since there are so many complaining about ressing or dodging being so hard to do,  ANet should divide the daily achievement into 2 categories, rewarded differently and everyone being able to choose which one to complete :

1. The dailies before the update (gathering, number of kills, events and variety of kills) - rewarded with a mystic coin, one jug of karma, silver and maybe one mystic item;
2. The dailies after the update (everyone knows which ones) - rewarded with all of the above + 1 laurel.

That might work for everyone. Maybe.

Nah theres absolutely no reason to make an interim change like that, since they are implementing the next stage of the daily revamp in two weeks anyway, and then anyone unhappy with this or that requirement can complete enough of the others. Kudos for thinking up a solution instead of joining the bickering, though =)

[Trei]

Gli, on 13 February 2013 - 03:12 PM, said:

Daily achievements change

Started by Legion_Magnus, Jan 30 2013 03:26 AM

Why are you on this thread at all then?

I am on this thread responding to a post that was a reply to another prior post regarding accessibility of the laurel rewards.

[Fizzypop]

Resolve, on 13 February 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:

Yeah. I think some people have the idea that I'm frothing at the mouth in anger over this(hint: I'm not). There is every chance that this system will be amazing a couple of months down the track. Doesn't mean we can't voice our opinion and concerns now.

It would be great if people didn't take criticism against this game so personally.

I think it's because the majority of those who are now complaining were the same people who told us we couldn't complain on a variety of other topics. Now that the boot is on the other foot well I gotta have my fun. Expressing concerns is fine, but quite a few believe this system is damaging to the game or that having to dodge is horrible! Not so sure they are legitimate concerns at all. If anet haven't stated they would release other ways to get the new currency then I'd be more concerned, but I still probably would think this is better than nothing. At least now I have a chance to get an ascended ring before I had no chance.

[Resolve]

Fizzypop, on 13 February 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

Um yeah no. You aren't casual because you only log in once or twice a week or you play X time only. You can't pin down casual players by some specific definition. I consider myself a casual player I log in 5-6 times a week I just don't play for very long. I also sometimes take week breaks. Yes, it'll take months to get something out of this...probably because they aren't done implementing it. They have already said they are going to add new ways to get the currency.

I'm sure there's a lot of players who consider themselves casual but aren't. The point was that casual players won't be getting the same out of this system as hardcore players. But yeah I agree with you in that it's hard to determine what exactly is a casual player.

And yes Anet have said this and they've said that. We'll have to see what the end result actually is.

Fizzypop, on 13 February 2013 - 04:45 PM, said:

I think it's because the majority of those who are now complaining were the same people who told us we couldn't complain on a variety of other topics. Now that the boot is on the other foot well I gotta have my fun. Expressing concerns is fine, but quite a few believe this system is damaging to the game or that having to dodge is horrible! Not so sure they are legitimate concerns at all. If anet haven't stated they would release other ways to get the new currency then I'd be more concerned, but I still probably would think this is better than nothing. At least now I have a chance to get an ascended ring before I had no chance.

Yeah you bring up some good points. At the end of the day, it's still an almost free reward. I just hope ANet consider all feedback and actually improve it.

Edited by Resolve, 13 February 2013 - 04:51 PM.

[Fizzypop]

Resolve, on 13 February 2013 - 04:46 PM, said:

I'm sure there's a lot of players who consider themselves casual but aren't. The point was that casual players won't be getting the same out of this system as hardcore players. But yeah I agree with you in that it's hard to determine what exactly is a casual player.

And yes Anet have said this and they've said that. We'll have to see what the end result actually is.

Mmm well I doubt many people would consider playing 5 hours a week hardcore. Since the average gamer plays 10-12 hours a week. I'm definitely middle of the road. Casual players NEVER get the same out of any system because they don't play nearly as often. It doesn't matter if they make it so you can complete an entire set in 1 week hardcore players would have it done in a day. Casual players aren't like hardcore players they don't care WHEN they get it as long as it's reasonably possible for them to get it. Hardcore players often want the items for prestige. They want to feel important so having it sooner makes them feel that way.

I can agree with that they haven't gotten a great track record here, but I believe at least they have shown good faith.

Resolve, on 13 February 2013 - 04:46 PM, said:

Yeah you bring up some good points. At the end of the day, it's still an almost free reward. I just hope ANet consider all feedback and actually improve it.

Agreed. I actually want to see this game do well and improve. I just want to make sure I'm giving them some good feedback every once in awhile since I know I have some really harsh criticism for this game on other topics.

Edited by Fizzypop, 13 February 2013 - 05:07 PM.

[El Duderino]

astromarmot, on 13 February 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

Why assume that time spent with forum accessibility equals time available for playing the game?  For many of us, those are leagues apart...I'm not sure there's all that many peeps( other than those who have quit the game, yet feel compelled to berate it on the forums) who post when they could be playing...

Maybe you could actually respond to one of my counter arguments instead of whining about your whining.

[Volkon]

Protoss, on 13 February 2013 - 04:41 PM, said:

You didn't exactly have a "system of exotics" before the addition of ascended gear. We had an expansive system of gear that served absolutely no purpose other than to get in the way of getting max gear. The whole point of GW2's gear system before ascended gear was to expand on the grind and ascended gear just added the grind. So, "accessibility" isn't exactly the word I'd use to describe the GW2 gear system.
But if "accessibility" is the word of the day, I'd argue that simply making the gear in the game available through more options is the way to go, rather than adding a whole new set of gear, massively limiting how one gets it and then SLOWLY expanding the acquisition process.

As for individual players, I already acknowledged that certain players have it easier to do the daily now. And I am glad for you - when looking at dailies as a tool that gives people more options, that's what a change should do. The problem is that this change came with a cost - there are certain areas in the game (or even better, certain areas at certain times) that simply do not allow you to complete the daily. And that's the problem here: the goal here isn't to prevent you from completing the daily, the goal is to expand the daily so that it allows YOU and those of us that currently aren't allowed to do the daily, to complete it.

The point of the gear system was to expand the grind? What the kitten does that even mean? I put my necro into full exotics (including weapons and jewelry) as soon as I hit 80 on it simply by crafting them with stuff already in storage. Exotics are meant to be the most easily accessible tier of high end gear and they're exactly that. You can craft them, find them, get them for karma, buy them off the TP... many ways to get them. This means they also have little to no time investment on average. Ascended gear requires a time investment for slightly better stats for, at the moment, a couple rings and an amulet. Accessibility is exactly the right word for the gear system because even the top tiers are accessible to anyone without running the gated treadmill of lesser MMOs.

Just as Fractals are there for people wanting ascended gear tied to that dungeon (but viable anywhere), dailies provide access to ascended gear that are tied to laurels. Soon laurels will be even easier to get, and soon additional ascended gear will be available by other means making them even more accessible.

[Gli]

XPhiler, on 13 February 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

Spoiler

It depends on how you look at it. You're saying that it didnt add variety and correct me if i am wrong, because you're looking at it from a non daily point of view. You're saying anything the new dailies require is stuff you used to do all the time anyway so there is no change per se. That is true and not at the same time. let me start from the major change which comes when you take the point of view of people looking at the daily achievement itself as a task.When seeing the daily as a  task these player accomplish directly for the last 6 months that meant finishing off 5 events, killing 60 mobs, killing 15 different type of mobs and gathering 20 materials, day after day after day. Right now there is a little change for these people to enjoy that allows them to vary their play style a little bit. Even going back to what I am assuming your point of view to be that is if you see the daily achievement as an extention to your normal playstyle it has most likely given you a little variety by pulling you in specific areas of the game which I know is not just a good thing but also a bad thing like many posts explained. Anyhow People Ressed before but now you might visit areas that have massacared npcs more just to make it easier. You might end up doing more underwater content to get the aquatic achievement. Simply speaking you might deviate your paths a little to help finish off the daily. I am not saying changing your playstyle entirely, dont believe thats really necessary and thats certainly not what I am talking about, I am refering more to the geolocation where you play what you enjoy playing more then anything else. It also provided variety in terms of tasks, a lot of complaints said that they simply refuse to craft. This might make them start. It might not lead anywhere because they dont enjoy such a task, its quite possible but you never know. The requirements are light enough to make this a non issue imho

They are useless and pedestrian right now that have to be designed to be accessable to everyone. I dont find them interesting either but I am hoping that with the upcoming change, once accessability will no longer be required over every single daily task Anet can put some challenging and interesting task for people to do. That being said I disagree. Its not a good thing for everyone maybe but making a game system, any game system, relevant to your game is a always a good thing for the game itself as long as whatever you gain from that system remains optional. I am saying this because ideally like exotic gear everything shouldnt be accessable in every way so people who can only play the game for short spans of time at a time should get the opportunity to progress doing just that. If my goal as a player is to aquire best in slot gear and the task I enjoy doing doesnt reward me with such gear I am either forced to change my goal or play content that isnt my first choice to play. Even dailies as they are they help out with this. For example if I am a player who likes to explore, by exploring alone I have no way of getting ascended gear and will be very hard to even get an exotic gear set. Exploring and completing the daily however can go very well hand in hand giving me an easier avenue to do both at the same time.

Thats the thing though. Before you were not happy with the dailies you just were happy to ignore them because to you they were irrelevant. Thing is some people enjoy dailies but they still had the same irrelevance that you experianced. IMHO to solve your issue the solution isnt to make dailies irrelevant again, that would be more damaging then benefitial to the game. No what I think would be best would be for whatever items you feel you need to get off dailies to be also achievable in whatever way you want to play. That way people who like dailies will still find them relevant and you'll be free to ignore them if they dont entice you. It also goes in line with the manifesto and I am quite confident that this is how things will be once ascended gear are fully deployed within the game.

I'm not going to do a point-by-point reply, not just because it would be a huge undertaking, but also because I agree with much of it.

As you've figured out, my issue is just with the exclusiveness of the new rewards, and some people's insistence that the daily tasks in and of themselves are worth pursuing. I don't think they are, and were never meant to be. They used to be a means to make some additional progress money-wise, and later karma-wise, for people not invested in more elaborate gameplay.

As such, people preferring more elaborate gameplay could ignore them and not feel they missed out on anything they weren't getting through other means anyway. Sometimes they might even complete them spontaneously, and that was fun.

Now though, through the addition of exclusive rewards, all of that has completely changed. And I feel it hasn't been in a good way, for reasons I explained, ad nauseam, all over this thread. I'm sure you read them.

Another thing: I feel new content should be created in such a way that it injects the game with more appeal, so people keep playing. It certainly shouldn't be lessening the appeal, which is what this change accomplished for some people. People like to talk about NEEDS and WANTS. I believe that a game needs WANTS to keep people coming back. Games like GW2 provide a lot of things for people to set their sights on as WANTS. For some people, those WANTS are certain pieces of equipment, minipets, tonics, or what-have-you. One thing that irks me is the sickeningly patronizing way in which some people feel the need to belittle others who have such 'materialistic' WANTS, and the unwillingness to consider such WANTS just as worthy as their own WANTS. What does all of that have to do with appeal? New WANTS with only a single, uninvolved, time-gated way to go after them frustrate some people. Apparently, that's proper cause to be asked to "take a long walk off a short pier", or to be told you have a "tiny brain".

[El Duderino]

Resolve, on 13 February 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

I'd like it if it were all in the monthly, obviously making the monthly have bigger requirements. Even a weekly would be better, with real goals and things that would gather people at content

Like say 'Participate in x dragon fights' 'cleanse grenth' etc. Actual game play. And then Anet could tie it in with their living story idea. So a zone could be overrun by enemies for that month and you fill up progress by fighting and doing events there. It would get people into old zones that have been mostly forgotten about.

Unfortunately, that would be seen by people as MORE of a grind, because it IS more of a grind. And that is what ANet is trying to avoid.

Resolve, on 13 February 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

Putting words in my mouth, come on buddy. I never said majority. The point is, the dailies don't indicate how much someone plays this game.

When you say stupid things, expect stupid responses. The fact is that daily players DO play more than weekend warriors. It is simply dumb to try and argue against this.

Resolve, on 13 February 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

Casual players will play what, once or twice a week? If you're logging on every day then you're probably not a casual player lol. It'll take them months to get anything from this system. Again, it's not for the casual players. It's to keep the hardcore people interested and logging in daily. It's very weird that you don't understand this.

I think your definition of casual player and mine are quite different. I don't think the frequency of logging in is the de facto difference between casual and harcore players, especially considering I think there are many layers of casual-ness and hardcore-ness and many of those layers overlap.

The idea was simply to make a system that gave people a nice reward for a modicum of effort. Could it be better? Sure! Everything could probably be better. But, compared to the MANY things that can be better with this game - I would but the daily requirements near the end of the list. Because, it really isn't all that bad.

astromarmot, on 13 February 2013 - 04:58 PM, said:

Cheers!

<3

[Bryant Again]

El Duderino, on 13 February 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

So, it doesn't help casual players to add a mechanic to get nearly the best gear in the game by doing things they should be able to accomplish through regular play?

Not necessarily when that mechanic requires a minimum amount of play every day. It's not hardcore but it isn't helping all of what we should encompass when concerning the 'casual' player. If these mechanics are concerned more with giving average players a chance we need to take into account everyone's time as well, and as such the current system is too exclusive.

If we can't find a middleground and it becomes that hardcore players earn these items quickly and instantly, can that not be seen as necessary 'collateral damage' in an attempt to reach out to more players?

El Duderino, on 13 February 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

If you really thing that most players who play daily spend the same amount of time or less than people who play only on the weekends, then I'm afraid there is no reason to talk to you, because you are just dumb.

Nowhere near necessary...

[El Duderino]

Gli, on 13 February 2013 - 05:06 PM, said:

Another thing: I feel new content should be created in such a way that it injects the game with more appeal, so people keep playing. It certainly shouldn't be lessening the appeal, which is what this change accomplished for some people. People like to talk about NEEDS and WANTS. I believe that a game needs WANTS to keep people coming back. Games like GW2 provide a lot of things for people to set their sights on as WANTS. For some people, those WANTS are certain pieces of equipment, minipets, tonics, or what-have-you. One thing that irks me is the sickeningly patronizing way in which some people feel the need to belittle others who have such 'materialistic' WANTS, and the unwillingness to consider such WANTS just as worthy as their own WANTS. What does all of that have to do with appeal? New WANTS with only a single, uninvolved, time-gated way to go after them frustrate some people. Apparently, that's proper cause to be asked to "take a long walk off a short pier", or to be told you have a "tiny brain".

The reason for this is because when I said that it is important for a game to have rewards for hardcore players, people thought it was a stupid idea.

That was why I got into this mess to begin with: the fact that people, like you, likened the daily challenge to some sort of epic grind.

It isn't.

The rewards are clearly very good. If you think it is a grind to get these rewards, then you are basically saying that you don't want to go out of your way to get rewarded for anything - instead it should be handed to you on a silver platter simply for playing your own style - regardless of what style that is.

That, simply, is a wrong way to look at a game. It makes it pointless for anyone who wants to put more time and effort into the game to "get ahead". And, let's face it, that is a big draw to any end game - to have the best of everything to put yourself ahead of others because of your accomplishments.

If you take that out of an MMO, the MMO dies. Because, it suddenly becomes uninteresting to play when ANYONE can get ANYTHING merely by playing the game however they damn please.

So, yes, if you think otherwise, I think you need to seriously look at yourself and figure out why you are so deserving of something for doing nothing.

[Ritualist]

Volkon, on 13 February 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

The point of the gear system was to expand the grind? What the kitten does that even mean? I put my necro into full exotics (including weapons and jewelry) as soon as I hit 80 on it simply by crafting them with stuff already in storage. Exotics are meant to be the most easily accessible tier of high end gear and they're exactly that. You can craft them, find them, get them for karma, buy them off the TP... many ways to get them. This means they also have little to no time investment on average. Ascended gear requires a time investment for slightly better stats for, at the moment, a couple rings and an amulet. Accessibility is exactly the right word for the gear system because even the top tiers are accessible to anyone without running the gated treadmill of lesser MMOs.

Just as Fractals are there for people wanting ascended gear tied to that dungeon (but viable anywhere), dailies provide access to ascended gear that are tied to laurels. Soon laurels will be even easier to get, and soon additional ascended gear will be available by other means making them even more accessible.

As I said, the whole point of the gear system is to get in the way of getting max gear. There's no other purpose to it - and it's because of this that we really didn't need a whole new level of gear. If "accessibility" was the idea behind the gear system, we'd have one or two levels of gear. The gear system is bland as * and adding new tiers doesn't increase the accessibility - it just prolongs the boredom.
Now, CLEARLY, there are games that do it worse, but just because GW2 does it better, that doesn't mean it does it good.

[El Duderino]

Bryant Again, on 13 February 2013 - 05:13 PM, said:

Not necessarily when that mechanic requires a minimum amount of play every day. It's not hardcore but it isn't helping all of what we should encompass when concerning the 'casual' player. If these mechanics are concerned more with giving average players a chance we need to take into account everyone's time as well, and as such the current system is too exclusive.

Says you. Tell me WHY! Because, the fact is that the only thing that helps your argument is that everyone should be able to get the same reward for the same time spent.

If you would have read my counter-argument to that argument, you would realize that the weekend warrior can never "catch up" with the time spent by the daily player. Therefore, the whole argument becomes invalid.

Again, the example is, if it takes 30 minutes to get a laurel; even if they let you get those rewards provided the same time and had a cap based on the amount of days, it would actually create a grind for the weekend warrior and they would be stuck only playing for laurels instead of playing the game.

You simply cannot use the argument of time because by default people who play more will get more rewards. You cannot change that. So stop trying.

Edited by Ethereal, 13 February 2013 - 06:42 PM.

[Volkon]

Protoss, on 13 February 2013 - 05:19 PM, said:

As I said, the whole point of the gear system is to get in the way of getting max gear. There's no other purpose to it - and it's because of this that we really didn't need a whole new level of gear. If "accessibility" was the idea behind the gear system, we'd have one or two levels of gear. The gear system is bland as * and adding new tiers doesn't increase the accessibility - it just prolongs the boredom.
Now, CLEARLY, there are games that do it worse, but just because GW2 does it better, that doesn't mean it does it good.

How is it getting in the way of getting max gear? Like I mentioned, I crafted a full set of exotics for my necro as soon as he hit 80. The jump to ascended rings/ammy is small enough to be irrelevant compared to game play. You're still not making any sense whatsoever. The ascended tier is there as a moderate time sink for moderate rewards for those that wish to pursue them. They're still highly accessible, those three items, but there's an optional time cost to be spent for these optional items.

[Ritualist]

Volkon, on 13 February 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:

The ascended tier is there as a moderate time sink for moderate rewards for those that wish to pursue them.

This to me says that the system is less accessible. If it's there simply to waste the players' time, why would we consider this to be as accessible as it can be? Especially, as I argued above, if I wish for a system in which power is never optional.

[El Duderino]

Protoss, on 13 February 2013 - 05:39 PM, said:

This to me says that the system is less accessible. If it's there simply to waste the players' time, why would we consider this to be as accessible as it can be? Especially, as I argued above, if I wish for a system in which power is never optional.

Because it is easier to get than Legendary items. That is why it is accessible.

If you don't want to do it, you don't have to. Which you keep failing to realize.

Edited by Feathermoore, 13 February 2013 - 06:01 PM.
Removed off topic flame bait