8 replies to this topic

[JROH]

So the community has been pumping out builds and redesigned builds left and right since day one.
Since I started posting and doing theorycrafting, I never really came across an amulet that truly fit rangers, until now.

I could go through the list of all the amulets and explain their pros and cons, and then try to justify why I believe, in my own opinion, that the amulet I am about to suggest is the better option.
But instead I am just going to explain the strengths of the choosing the amulet I have chosen to equip and why I believe, in my opinion and experience in game, that it works.

Without further ado: the Celestial Amulet.

I'm sure people will stop reading after my suggesting, under the assumption that due what the amulet provides compared to other amulets (other amulets having higher stats, but less options), it isn't worthy of slotting. However, it hits some sweet spots for rangers.

Examples/reasoning:
I've been experimenting with different things since day 1. Trying all sorts of amulets and such. At first I thought the rabid amulet was the best options. Adding crit chance and condition damage with toughness seemed a strong choice. But I felt molded into a singular playstyle with not enough health for the damage mitigation from toughness to benefit me overall, and not enough healing for my heal to always be significant in changing the fights outcome.
Next I tried the Carrion Amulet. I figured a higher health pool and then traiting/using runes to make up for the lost toughness would be a better option. Survival wise, it is a better option in comparison to an equal, not healing based build. However, that also pigeonholed me into a very singular playstyle (in each case I am talking turret style, mindless auto attacking).

I went through my berserkers phase. There really isn't much to say. Glass cannon is a playstyle choice I dislike and don't agree with its effectiveness on rangers.
I of course had my soldiers amulet phase before and a little after the shortbow quickness and auto attack speed nerf. The build was fun (for me) but ultimately ANet decided it outshined our other builds (and every ranger build has to be mediocre until they can figure out how to balance the game, or so my paranoia leads me to think. Not just rangers though, the whole game is pretty unpolished when it comes to balance and trait effectiveness) and didn't provide "fun" gameplay (they could have asked the community instead of assuming our opinions...).

Finally, I went through my Shamans amulet phase, and while the stats it provides are welcome on any ranger build, it leaves a lot missing.

So, why the celestial amulet? Well, healing is one of the best investments ranger can make in stats. Healing Spring is widely accepted as one of the better skills in the game, and anything that makes it better is good. Additionally, because I run runes of Dwayna on every build (that stat bonus other runes provide can't make up for the amazing amount of regen duration rangers can obtain), my Signet of the Wild ticks for 93 per second.
Signet of the Wild is the best passive survival utility we have. Why? It is essentially that much damage mitigation. A comparison example, and this is for all intensive purposes as I don't feel like addressing diminishing returns and so and so forth, is that adding 100 toughness to your base armor rating mitigates 34 out of every 1000 damage you take (or 3.4% damage mitigation).
Signet of the Wild is essentially mitigating whatever it is healing for out of every 1000 damage you take. That is 9.3% mitigation for this build (with zero in Beastmastery mind you), which is the equivalent of about 300 toughness.

This is only 1 stat. The amulet also provides some much needed vitality and toughness, and with 30 wilderness survival and 18.5k health (2625 armor) you have much more survival against direct damage than the 16k shamans variant.

Condition damage is fair, power is always good, and it even increased crit chance and crit damage. Overall, this build increased all of rangers damage outputs while all of the survival tools, and no real drawbacks.

I'm sure there will be questions and I will explain myself as much as I can with as much detail as I can, but I will provide the builds I tried it on and have had success with.

The 0/0/30/10/30 variant:
http://gw2skills.net...G7Nubk3s8YAyeBA

Regen Trapper:
http://gw2skills.net...G7Nubk3s8YAyeBA

Quickness Trapper:
http://gw2skills.net...G7Nubk3s8YAyeBA

Here's a quick build I haven't gotten to test yet:
http://gw2skills.net...G7Nubk3s8YAyeBA

For lols (also untested):
http://gw2skills.net...G7Nubk3s8YAyeBA

Edited by JROH, 31 January 2013 - 10:47 AM.

[Tempo]

Hey,

I could understand your reasoning juste for one reason : SB is good at power/crit and conditions. Moreover, trappers builds have always been a kind of mix between power/crit and conditons bcause of precision and prowess in skirmishing  trrait line. What you say makes sense for SB trapper ranger i think.

I don't think that other weapons are suited for that kind of mix, maybe axe but i would never play without a sword for defense purpose.

I don't really understand your first build, it seems to me that the damage from it is very low and you don't have the defensive sword abilities.

It could work with SB trapper, the quickness one, because it's the best 5 points traits in the entire game! Have to see if the damage is enough, because condition and power are not that hight.

EDIT : after doing the math, on such a trap build, the power/crit chance/crit damage on celestial is roughtly the same damage as the power from carrion amulet.

So you just trade
carrion condi damage and vitality
for
celestial condi + vitality + toughness + heal power.

That's a lot less condi damage but more tankyness. losing  583 condi damage and 2k hp, gaining 340 toughness and 340 heal power. Worth it?


When you look at SB trapper with shaman amulet, the tradeoff is 300 less condi damage and 500 less toughness to gain the power/crit (HP and healing power staying the same).

Edited by Tempo, 31 January 2013 - 10:52 AM.

[JROH]

It actually works very well in practice. As with all versions of the build, the main damage does come from the pet, and the cats DPS is insanely high. But on top of that it is the bleeds that make the build strong.
Swap to axe and geomancy activates. You can pet swap for quickness and your pets F2 at this point but it is optional. But then axe 2 and dagger 5 put at least 15 long lasting bleeds on them. That ticks for about 1.2k per second rounded, then when it drops back to 12, it will be 900 dps rounded. This is on top of your pets damage, which should be 2k on crits and stacking its own bleeds, 800 or so without crits.
At the end of the day its still a basic beastmastery build. Could shortbow be replaced? Absolutely. It is my personal preference and I am open to admitting that it is stronger the way Xsorus runs it (with sword torch axe dagger). In the build, the shortbow is actually more defensive oriented than anything. Staying out of enemy distance to poke at them, an evade, cripple, and daze/stun, with a bit of poison for suppressing healing and damage. It is definitely a utility weapon and should be used as such in that instance.
If you really want to get into why I think the defensive numbers are good for a ranger (talking about toughness, vitality, and healing to an extent) then this is thread I always reference: http://www.guildwars...s-and-vitality/
Essentially, I am just going to use his last little bit for a dirty rundown of where the build stands. He has his system of ratings, and the numbers are determined by (health*armor)/10000. The builds all fall within durable to tanky, and the healing on them is incredible and not factored into that survival number.
The healing is also high enough (for me) as it has hit a breakpoint in boosting both regeneration and Signet of the Wild making them tick for 2xx and 1xx respectively.
The sword I don't like because it doesn't have enough condition damage access to make it a stronger choice than bringing a DPS option. It is fine defensively, and strong in power based builds. But in condition builds I just feel you sacrifice damage just for a gap opener/closer and an evade that you may as well just take dagger offhand for a dodge and cripple (which can be used to keep an opponent away equally as effectively).

The playstyle could very well just not be for you with the build. There is nothing wrong with that. I prefer trapper as well, though I can't deny the success I have playing with the 0/0/30/10/30 build.
Also, the reason why I posted the rest of the builds is to get out ideas on things I've been thinking about and gradually testing. If you asked about the performance of any of them, I wouldn't be able to give a solid answer, but I find they all bring something to the table on paper.

[Tempo]

Well why going power/crit if the power of the build is just bleed and pet?
I agree with you to say that ranger can be powerfull with a balance of several stats, damage and defense. The problem is that precision and crit damage are stats that does not scale as goo as power and condition damage. Basically, condition or power will always be better than precision + crit damage. Those two stats are good only to increase an allready full power build.

And for that sword, yes it lacks some condi damage but it allows you to use a torch in offhand. And torch is absolutly devastating.

Edited by Tempo, 31 January 2013 - 11:03 AM.

[avoidconfusion]

Excellent thread yet again! Will test this later!

[JROH]

Tempo, on 31 January 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

Well why going power/crit if the power of the build is just bleed and pet?
I agree with you to say that ranger can be powerfull with a balance of several stats, damage and defense. The problem is that precision and crit damage are stats that does not scale as goo as power and condition damage. Basically, condition or power will always be better than precision + crit damage. Those two stats are good only to increase an allready full power build.

And for that sword, yes it lacks some condi damage but it allows you to use a torch in offhand. And torch is absolutly devastating.

Because the only amulet that provides the condition damage with power is the carrion amulet. Which means you sacrifice the healing power and toughness that you would still want to add to a build that is a 0/0/30/10/30 because it is more of a survival build.
Outside of the trapper build which provides enough proc to gain addition bleeds (which in turn make up for a lot of the damage lost by not speccing all power over crit while allowing you to keep the defensive stats), the slight power, precision, and crit damage is just bonus damage, as the 0/0/30/10/30 was always build around the Shamans Amulet. Meaning as far as damage goes, there is actually an increased damage output from the original build.
What it does for the trap builds is that it adds the healing to them that is so strong on rangers. Condition damage doesn't stack very well with burning, meaning that it takes a lot to increase it a little, and condition damage in general is the same (you would have to increase condition damage from 600 to 1000 to increase bleed ticks by about 20dps). It is important not to sacrifice so many points into condition damage that there isn't enough left for other offensive or defensive stats.

[Tempo]

JROH, on 31 January 2013 - 02:54 PM, said:

Because the only amulet that provides the condition damage with power is the carrion amulet. Which means you sacrifice the healing power and toughness that you would still want to add to a build that is a 0/0/30/10/30 because it is more of a survival build.
Outside of the trapper build which provides enough proc to gain addition bleeds (which in turn make up for a lot of the damage lost by not speccing all power over crit while allowing you to keep the defensive stats), the slight power, precision, and crit damage is just bonus damage, as the 0/0/30/10/30 was always build around the Shamans Amulet. Meaning as far as damage goes, there is actually an increased damage output from the original build.

Well, losing 300 condi damage, 500 toughness is worth 250 power, 16% crit chance and 20% crit damage?
Your build does more damage but is less tanky.

If you search some balance between tankyness and damage with 0/0/30/10/30, you have also this one :

http://gw2skills.net...G7Nubk3s8YAyeBA

It's less tanky than shaman and celestial but you don't use bad scaling stats like precision so your damage will be pretty higher.

We could classify the builds like that :
More damage ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------to more tanky :
Carrion amulet/jewel + damage runes --- Celestial amulet/jewel + whatever runes ---  Shaman amulet/carrin jewel + vitality runes

So your celestial build should have its place if it didn't used poor scaling stats.
In fact you was trying to find something more balanced between carrion and shaman and found celestial. Really it's a dgood idea.

JROH, on 31 January 2013 - 02:54 PM, said:

What it does for the trap builds is that it adds the healing to them that is so strong on rangers. Condition damage doesn't stack very well with burning, meaning that it takes a lot to increase it a little, and condition damage in general is the same (you would have to increase condition damage from 600 to 1000 to increase bleed ticks by about 20dps). It is important not to sacrifice so many points into condition damage that there isn't enough left for other offensive or defensive stats.

You could play the trap build with shaman amulet and vitality runeset.
That is more condi damage, more toughness, equal healing power. You just trade some toughness and some condi damage for some power/crit. The tanky trap build allready exist with shaman.

[JROH]

Tempo, on 31 January 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

Well, losing 300 condi damage, 500 toughness is worth 250 power, 16% crit chance and 20% crit damage?
Your build does more damage but is less tanky.

If you search some balance between tankyness and damage with 0/0/30/10/30, you have also this one :

http://gw2skills.net...G7Nubk3s8YAyeBA

It's less tanky than shaman and celestial but you don't use bad scaling stats like precision so your damage will be pretty higher.

We could classify the builds like that :
More damage ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------to more tanky :
Carrion amulet/jewel + damage runes --- Celestial amulet/jewel + whatever runes ---  Shaman amulet/carrin jewel + vitality runes

So your celestial build should have its place if it didn't used poor scaling stats.
In fact you was trying to find something more balanced between carrion and shaman and found celestial. Really it's a dgood idea.



You could play the trap build with shaman amulet and vitality runeset.
That is more condi damage, more toughness, equal healing power. You just trade some toughness and some condi damage for some power/crit. The tanky trap build allready exist with shaman.

I actually have to be completely honest and say I have never physically tried the 0/0/30/10/30 build with the carrion amulet the way you linked. It's numbers look good though, even though as a personal preference I would want to have 2500+ armor rating. But that has nothing to do with performance, and is probably more of a function of certain OCD tendencies I have than anything else, because the math dictates that the higher vitality from sacrificing toughness dictates better ability to deal with incoming damage.

Overall I would say I would have to agree with this:

Quote

In fact you was trying to find something more balanced between carrion and shaman and found celestial.

more than anything.

I ended up liking Celestial better on the trap variant, in particular, this one: http://en.gw2skills....G7Nubk3s8YAyeBA
more so than the others I tried. It has the healing while it maintains enough crit to proc sharpened edges. People can say that it isn't the best trait, however, it is fairly efficient in keeping up DPS with the shortbow, and even though the build doesn't have enough power to capitalize entirely on the crit damage, 50% crit damage is still a nice DPS increase compared to running a trap build with a Rabid Amulet.
I would argue that the strongest DPS trap build is a Carrion Amulet one, followed by this, then by rabid, then Shamans. They each have their own strengths and weaknesses, but it is a very good midpoint between healing, damage, and survival to run a celestial amulet, and has a very agreeable health pool and armor rating for my own personal playstyle. It's unfortunate that if you run Carrion Amulet on the trap build, you have to choose between making up the lost toughness or healing power, or otherwise it would be one of the stronger amulets rangers could run on ANY build. I guess that is the exact reason the stats aren't distributed that way. Being able to add a decent amount to power/toughness/vitality/condition damage/healing power all at the same time may actually make ranger a very strong class no matter which trait distribution is chosen, which is probably why it is difficult to distribute all of the stats at the same time.

[Sebrent_Tehroth]

I like the idea as I have noticed that every weapon (aside from Longbow) makes use of both direct damage as well as condition damage and tankiness is always quite welcome.

Furthermore, I think you can often start getting diminishing returns once you reach a particular point with a stat.

I do more PvE and WvWvW than sPvP, so I took a look at the ascended amulets and noticed the following

Celestial-Celestial = 300 pts + 6% crit dmg + 4% magic find
Rabid-Apothecary = 296 pts
Berserker-Berserker = 211 pts + 9% crit dmg
Berserker-Valkyrie = 211 pts + 9% crit dmg
Soldier-Soldier = 296 pts
Cavalier-Cavalier = 211 pts + 9% crit dmg
Rabid-Rabid = 296 pts
???-Rabid = 296 pts
Wayfarer-Soldier = 202 pts + 5% magic find
Explorer-Explorer = 170 pts + 10% magic find

You get quite a bargain with Celestial as far as the number of total stat points you get as well as % crit damage and % magic find.