160 replies to this topic

[Nabuko Darayon]

I agree more on 5 level restriction. There's a big difference in doing lvl 10 and doing lvl 19, or doing lvl 20 and doing lvl  29. The difficulty of the mobs increase. 5 level restriction means that you should at least put some effort before you can try to troll your team, or the trolls won't bother doing it.

[killing91]

Waar Kijk Je Naar, on 31 January 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

So my Guardian with 15AR, which is only at fractal lvl 5, shouldn't be able to join fractal lvl 11+, but my Warrior with 5AR, which is at lvl 12, should be?

We are talking about compromises here.
Before you had to grind your way up from lvl 1; what he is suggesting is a compromise to avoid, to a certaint extent, doing lvl 20+ fractals with inexperienced people.
Of course there are people like you and me, that might be lvl 30 and don't want to do under 10 fractals all over again; but it's either a tiered system or i don't know what else might work.

Linking ascended gear simply doesn't work for 2 reasons:
1) You can avoid every attack that applies agony apart from The Maw; not every player, me for first, is able to do that but i'd give him/her the benefit of doubt.
2)You can copy/paste the ascended item link from gw2db or gw2spidy; some might shows "[]" others the full name.
Also you can't view infusions from a linked item be it from a website or from your inventory.

A tiered system is fair enough in my opinion; you can skip from lvl  1 to lvl 10 but not higher until you reach lvl 11.
Again this is just a compromise that might solve the current and future (rings with laurels) situation.

[jari]

there is no problem as far as i can see. if you want to get a party at lv 11+ just let the people in the party ping their jewels and armor and if it is to weak just kick from party and search for some one else.

[HederaHelix]

I'm level 14 Fractal... because I joined my guild who runs 26... =)  I have 15 AR because of it too.  The last couple of days have rocked in Fractals for me.  Finally able to get leveled up when I was gone when Fractals came out.. and my friends were already high leveled.  Don't want noobs? Don't pug. Simple as that. There are plenty of ways to stay alive and dodge Agony from almost every boss that dishes it.  The only one you can't dodge is Jade Maw and the Dredge Boss in Fractals (can dodge it but its one of the harder bosses to avoid)... and obviously the higher levels of Fractals doesn't matter if you have 30 AR or no AR its gonna hurt.  have you seen the videos?  So it IS doable without it... just gotta know how to mitigate it yourself. Try running with guildies, if you don't have a guild start making a few friends you can run with often.

Edited by HederaHelix, 31 January 2013 - 10:24 AM.

[Rukioish]

I never do Fractuals without my guild. It is not that hard to find 5 competent people to do Fractuals with.

[AKGeo]

even then, going through the hassle of pinging a pink ring or amulet just to get into higher level fractals is just ridiculous. May as well just farm level 8 for relics so you don't gimp yourself.

dzanikken, on 31 January 2013 - 09:46 AM, said:

I don't agree here. Many players, including myself, still don't have AR post level 10. But I make up for it knowing my role in the team and the mechanics of each fractal. Agony doesn't affect me in a manner that would be detrimental to the team. So in this view, your reasoning is a bit unfair.

If you don't have agony resist and I'm doing level 14 or higher, you're not in my group. Sorry. Until I know you and your skills, you're a pug and pugs are not trustworthy any more. Not for fractals. It's too tough to just hamfist your way through it. Even someone who does know their role can still get caught and become a liability. I'd like to see at least an effort put into getting agony resist, and that means staying at level 10 dailies until you get your ring. I went the next step and got a Sights Be True and infused IT as well as my ring. I'm being very careful even with 10ar all the way to level 20, hoping to get a second ring before then. and if I don't get it, at least tomorrow I'll have my 10th pristine and I can buy one.

[Gen1tor]

But what about players whose lvl is <80? Should they be excluded from completing their monthly q until they hit 80? Other than that (completion of the monthly) I see no other reason why someone <80 would enter a fractal. They can't wear ascended yet, they gain 0 exp and without agony they will be constantly dead after lvl 10.

Btw yesterday I entered a lvl 1 frac with my alt (lvl 45 now) with a pug grp and we managed to hit lvl 3 with almost no problems at all. So I suppose maybe fractals below lvl 10 are for everyone (although my group had 3 lvl 80 players don't know if ti's possible for 5 ppl lvls 50 or less f.e.) in order to complete their montly?

[killing91]

AKGeo, on 31 January 2013 - 10:41 AM, said:

even then, going through the hassle of pinging a pink ring or amulet just to get into higher level fractals is just ridiculous. May as well just farm level 8 for relics so you don't gimp yourself.



If you don't have agony resist and I'm doing level 14 or higher, you're not in my group. Sorry. Until I know you and your skills, you're a pug and pugs are not trustworthy any more. Not for fractals. It's too tough to just hamfist your way through it. Even someone who does know their role can still get caught and become a liability. I'd like to see at least an effort put into getting agony resist, and that means staying at level 10 dailies until you get your ring. I went the next step and got a Sights Be True and infused IT as well as my ring. I'm being very careful even with 10ar all the way to level 20, hoping to get a second ring before then. and if I don't get it, at least tomorrow I'll have my 10th pristine and I can buy one.

Again you can take a link from gw2db and copy/paste it in chat so gear checks don't work.

Edit: apparently there is no link for upgraded rings and backs (aka +10 ar each)

Edited by killing91, 31 January 2013 - 10:52 AM.

[lmaonade]

well most people at level 10 wouldn't have any AR anyway, since, you know, they just got to the point where they can start farming for ascended things. The way I see it AR isn't really necessary until level 20, it won't matter how much AR someone has at levels 10-19, if they're a bad player, they'll die regardless, and if they're a good player, then AR is totally unnecessary in those levels

I do agree that people should have exotics before entering fractals though, or else some encounters will just take forever to complete

[AKGeo]

Again, effort just to put yourself into a tough situation of obviously having no agony resistance at higher levels.

It's easy to spot someone's health dropping incrementally by a large margin, and it's even easier to see them when they're the only ones downed after every wave of agony hits.

As for the level 10 vs higher levels...sure. You don't have AR at level 10 if you just got there. That's why you STAY THERE until you do. I had that consideration for others, they should have it for me, too. I don't complain when someone in level 10/11 has no AR. That would be dumb. But any higher than that, you should have waited and come prepared. Sorry, that's just how I see it. Don't make your team suffer because they have to pick your underequipped self up off the ground...the fractals are hard enough as it is. Especially now that they removed (most of) the glitches that allowed people to breeze through until this point without really learning how to do them.

AR displayed with their icon. Solves all problems. Those who care, get their way. Those who don't care, don't have to look.

Edited by AKGeo, 31 January 2013 - 10:59 AM.

[Illein]

Gen1tor, on 31 January 2013 - 10:45 AM, said:

But what about players whose lvl is <80? Should they be excluded from completing their monthly q until they hit 80? Other than that (completion of the monthly) I see no other reason why someone <80 would enter a fractal. They can't wear ascended yet, they gain 0 exp and without agony they will be constantly dead after lvl 10.

Btw yesterday I entered a lvl 1 frac with my alt (lvl 45 now) with a pug grp and we managed to hit lvl 3 with almost no problems at all. So I suppose maybe fractals below lvl 10 are for everyone (although my group had 3 lvl 80 players don't know if ti's possible for 5 ppl lvls 50 or less f.e.) in order to complete their montly?

Do Level 1 through 2 fractals to get your exact 7 Fractals?

I mean seriously, I haven't ever had a sub-80 whisper me if I looked for fractals of any level - but if they do, they better start at the bottom, I don't see why I should take a sub-80 player to fractal levels that require Agony Resistance, I don't know. That scenario seems to be a far cry from reality.

Edited by Illein, 31 January 2013 - 10:56 AM.

[Gen1tor]

Ofc someone w/o AR should stay below lvl 10 imo for everybody's safety. But as it is now I think fractals are much more useful for lvl 80 players who farm for their ascended. Ok I cleared 7 fracs as a lvl 40+ or 50+ so what? I got some crappy blues more

But since ANet says that everyone can join (at least at <10 lvls) theoretically even a player lvl 5 or 10 is allowed to enter w/o probs (maybe somebody would want to start farming for their ascended early on or for monthly)...

Imho, ANet should either make fracs for players lvl 80 or make ascended gear available for everyone (which would create much more problems than solve, as far as I can see).

[Resolve]

Jesus, just get rid of Agony all together

[Mister Stygian]

I have done enough 20 and 30 dailies so all my alts have an infused ring set with versatile infusions even though they have never been in a fractal.   I haven't yet, but I might want to play them at higher level just to check out how they do in fractals.   I wouldn't hurt a team up to fractal 30 by doing that, so limiting by level isn't the way to go.  People are just going to have to do AR checks and deal with it.

Edited by Mister Stygian, 31 January 2013 - 12:50 PM.

[beadnbutter32]

Reality check please...

This is Anet we are talking about, half-baked, is the name of the game.  Get used to it.

QQing because you ran high level fractals with unvetted pugs, what exactly did you expect?

Make some friends, run with friends/guild etc. problem solved.  Stop expecting Anet to cater to your lack of social success.

[Omedon]

pumpkin pie, on 31 January 2013 - 05:32 AM, said:

people should communicate more

This is the whole thing right here, top to bottom.  I saw this issue coming a mile away, but I also saw its solution in the same breath.

If I've said it once, I've said it a million times: GW2 dungeons are team content, not just group content.  ANet are (seemingly) not going to prioritize automation and code (through new "rules") the heck out of your dungeon group forming and running, because they are assuming a level of social involvement between players: a conversation, a briefing, a regular team, a guild, or a stated set of expectations, which players can either accept or reject (hence communicating) on a case by case, person to person basis.  And if they lie, that's part of the experience.  You don't have to play, guild, or associate with liars, once they've been discovered.

It's funny, back in the day in WoW, I indirectly cautioned against the idea of building toward communication being mandatory for dungeons (early cataclysm), because it's not something the developer can guarantee of its players, but in that game, dungeons were a near mandatory step on a singular path of cornerstone, highlighted progression, and their group formation was automated.  Neither is the case here.  No, even with ascended gear gained by running them, GW2 dungeons aren't mandatory, they aren't automated, and are assumed to be a hub of people forming meaningful teams, making meaningful communication in their formation and their completion.  They are not intended to be played (easily anyway) by those that don't like those levels of communication and sociability.

That being said, a few limits here and there wouldn't hurt, I'm simply interpreting why they aren't in place now: ArenaNet is assuming a level of human element that the community must either enable or suffer without.  Yet another way GW2 is forcing us to look in the mirror at what we've become as an online gaming community, and shudder.

And before anyone calls these ideas "elitist," remember this: when you buy a game, you are buying the game, the online world, the mechanical connection, the licence to play, you are not buying acceptance by the community, because no game developer can sell that.  From person to person, we all have limits, filters and preferences.  Some are reasonable, some are less likely to be met regularly, but none of them are wrong, as we are all empowered, in a game without trinity, to speak to the next person, and potentially form a group with them, or partake in the content that is less co-dependent.

Communicate.  Learn each others' preferences, and form groups of like mind.  GW2 doesn't have to automate that, or form unnecessary limits for us. Just be human with each other.

Edited by Omedon, 31 January 2013 - 04:07 PM.

[Millimidget]

Afyael, on 31 January 2013 - 04:45 AM, said:

Painfully obvious to everyone except Anet apparently.

This is why most suggestions are useless; they're usually given within a context that the developer totally ignores, and it's not just Anet.

Creative Poster: "Hey [insert meaningless praise] I got this awesome idea, involving x, y, z, q, r and s."
Forum Community: "+1 Million upvotes"
Developer: "Guess we better implement it."
Post-release
Developer: "We really listened to you guys on this one."
Creative Poster: "Hey thanks for giving my suggestions the time of day"
Forum Community: "How'd you miss elements q and s? They're integral to the whole suggestion. Without them, these changes are worse than the previous status quo."
Fanboys: "Be happy they made any changes at all. Quit or shut up."

Edited by Millimidget, 31 January 2013 - 01:51 PM.

[matsif]

it's a dungeon with a special condition requiring special resistance.  it's the only part of the game where I am ok with a gear check, because of that condition.  I normally hate the practice, but in this case I withhold that because of how damaging agony is.

I'll never run into the problem because my normal dungeon crew decided we'll just run level 10 until we all get rings and such and are ready to move forward from there.  only 1 player in that group is even above level 4, and he's at level 15 or 16 I think.  plus I don't run with pugs anymore as 99% of the time the players are horrible.  I can count on 1 hand how many times I've been in a good pug anyways, why would I want to play with them in content that has basically has a required gear check built in?

[Gileas898]

Loving this change so far. My guildies don't have the patience or will to go through lower levels but I can still level my alt account now.

There are always ups and downs with every change. If you are so concerned about other players experience then ask them to show their fractal rings. Not harder than that.

[christiansoldier]

I have barely started playing FOTM.  I think I am lvl4.  I have not idea what AR is, why it is necessary or how to get it. (Sound like on rings and amulets.)  Can some kind individual explain or post a link that gives an explanation so I and others like me don't make a fool of ourselves when we get to level 10.

[matsif]

christiansoldier, on 31 January 2013 - 03:54 PM, said:

I have barely started playing FOTM.  I think I am lvl4.  I have not idea what AR is, why it is necessary or how to get it. (Sound like on rings and amulets.)  Can some kind individual explain or post a link that gives an explanation so I and others like me don't make a fool of ourselves when we get to level 10.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Agony

[Darkobra]

christiansoldier, on 31 January 2013 - 03:54 PM, said:

I have barely started playing FOTM.  I think I am lvl4.  I have not idea what AR is, why it is necessary or how to get it. (Sound like on rings and amulets.)  Can some kind individual explain or post a link that gives an explanation so I and others like me don't make a fool of ourselves when we get to level 10.

Agony takes away a percentage of your health per second from 10 onwards. It's delivered to you with boss attacks and can be VERY damaging. At 10, you can get away with it and from 10 onwards, Jade Maw's bonus chest gives a chance at an Ascended ring. The agony resist stems the agony to a much more manageable percentage.

[christiansoldier]

matsif, on 31 January 2013 - 03:59 PM, said:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Agony

Thanks, I will take a look at this link when I get home.

Darkobra, on 31 January 2013 - 04:01 PM, said:

Agony takes away a percentage of your health per second from 10 onwards. It's delivered to you with boss attacks and can be VERY damaging. At 10, you can get away with it and from 10 onwards, Jade Maw's bonus chest gives a chance at an Ascended ring. The agony resist stems the agony to a much more manageable percentage.

Thanks for the expanation.  Are there a lot of items that reduce/resist agony?

[Darkobra]

You need Ascended jewellery that can have an Infusion slot and then you need to buy Agony Resist infusions from the Fractals merchants. You'll have the tokens for them LONG before you get one from Fractals.

[zaniix]

If you are geared properly for a lvl 80 and a decent player and understand the mechanics behind the lvl 10 + fractal you can manage without agony resist until 20 or so.

The problem is you get lack of gear + lack of experience = disaster.  Usually if someone at least has agony resist they should have a good understanding of how things work.  

I can not tell you how many times I have had someone attack Old Tom right away when we were trying to setup the crystals and then have no idea why the fan wont start.

[Hex65000]

I always like to ask in my pug's how experienced they are doing fractals before we even start the first one. Pre-patch I had the 'fortune' of folks who had reading comprehension problems or simply didn't realize how fractals worked.

Since I'm low level -- 4 -- and finding a group even with the website was a nuisance. This resulted in me sometimes running lower fractals just to make some headway towards the monthly. It says do 7, not advance two levels -- thank gawd!

That said, I did a PuG where I was just done with two of the group. They would just Leeroy Jenkins with the hammer and in the swamp area that requires a good bit of coordination it was just fail after fail and no learning in sight. I am embarrassed to say I politely raged, and left. I could probably run level 10 okay with a good group that is willing to provide guidance, since there are maps I have only done once several months ago. Something I think is more important to say early instead of in the middle of a fight and someone is complaining that I don't know what to do. If they complain mid-stream, did you bother to look at the chat window Derp? I'm learning and said so up front. As a personal rule, I'd stick to level 10-12 while farming for ascended parts. That is just common sense.

If I start encountering gear checkers I'm inclined to just start looking for another group. If the question is phrased: "do you have any agony resist?" and I say no then it's gonna be a toss up because it's either a group that wants to speedrun/farm or a group that is okay with it and know that if I get ascended parts too then I can eventually contribute to the pool as well. Still, it's a bad plan to lie about it. You aren't helping anyone in the long run.

If you have players who lie (and as pointed out above) can lie about gear with or without a link, well you'll find out soon enough the hard way. You can't patch against stupid. Level restricting really does not solve the problem. You can have decent gear and have no clue what to do. We had a CoF1 run where we simply had to stop and explain in detail exactly what had to happen. What was annoying is that the PuG didn't speak up -- ever. We had to figure out the hard way that they didn't know what to do.

I do like the idea that they should have a sign in the fractal lobby that describes how agony and fractal levels work. That is brilliant! At least it's a standing reference right there without a wiki page. Got a noobie? Right there in the lobby, go read the sign. I'll wait.

Hex.
[ Has a need for more dungeony tokens... sigh.... ]

[kanaxais_scythe]

Eon Lilu, on 31 January 2013 - 05:16 AM, said:

As usual Anet just blindly add changes without thinking it through, they were told all this would happen and players would kick other out of groups, players would be unhappy with lack of stats types, plus all the other changes that would cause more issues than solve any ....

Thats because they do not listen to the players. they want money from the gem store and otherwise don't quite care. note: constant monthly content updates with lack of bug fixes.

Edited by unraveled, 02 February 2013 - 10:25 PM.
Removed video from quote.

[AKGeo]

beadnbutter32, on 31 January 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:

Reality check please...

This is Anet we are talking about, half-baked, is the name of the game.  Get used to it.

QQing because you ran high level fractals with unvetted pugs, what exactly did you expect?

Make some friends, run with friends/guild etc. problem solved.  Stop expecting Anet to cater to your lack of social success.

Oh I do run with guildies. But my guild is full of casual players. Because I get along with casual players most. And casual means that they're not always online when I am. I can't slight them for that and I'm not going to dilute my guild population with grinders and "QQ moar" *s. Like you.

Lack of social success...was that truly necessary?

[Gli]

I would like it if they'd just add an AR check early on.

When proceeding from Mistlock to the first fractal, Dessa could say: "Hold on to your breeches, this transportation business may hurt a little." and have everyone suffer a few ticks of agony before teleporting.

Just so everyone in the party knows what's what. Better to find out about AR shortage sooner rather than later.

[Illein]

Gli, on 01 February 2013 - 03:31 AM, said:

I would like it if they'd just add an AR check early on.

When proceeding from Mistlock to the first fractal, Dessa could say: "Hold on to your breeches, this transportation business may hurt a little." and have everyone suffer a few ticks of agony before teleporting.

Just so everyone in the party knows what's what. Better to find out about AR shortage sooner rather than later.

Ha, would have been a cool way to check a party's AR, I'll admit