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What's wrong with 1h Sword?

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#1 ScorpioSpork

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 02:07 AM

First off, my guardian is only level 70. It's just one of my many alts, though I do prefer it over Warrior. I'm leveling it for fun and to use in dungeons whenever I need something tanky. But I've seen a lot of people hate on sword in PvE, and I really don't understand why.

Early on I settled on this build with Sword/Focus and Scepter/Shield. I get all the precision I need from Right Hand Strength, the 300 precision I get in that trait line, Lyssa Runes, and Emerald jewelry (my crit chance hovers above 50%). That means my back piece and all of my armor is Valkyrie (Power, Vitality, Crit Damage), but I could mix in Soldier's if I needed to.

I get the benefits of Fiery Wrath, Elusive Power and Radiant Power for an extra +30% damage. I also have Powerful Blades for another 5% increase with Sword. Empowering Might triggers on every other attack. I also use Sigils of Strength (30% chance on crit to gain might) for all the might I could ever want.

So this is definitely a dps setup, but I could easily wear full soldiers (armor and weapons, not jewelry) and still keep my high crit chance. I'd gain 368 Toughness but lose +27% crit damage when comparing exotics. But I have yet to feel fragile in my Valkyrie gear.

Unfortunately I miss out on Altruistic Healing. There's just no way to get Right Hand Strength, Empowering Might and AH. But I still get to support with Shouts, and I get to take Pure of Voice. Since Shouts are my main way to support a party, I tend to swap Signet of Judgement for "Hold the Line!"


I won't deny that Greatsword is awesome. But why do a lot of people look down on PvE Sword builds? Granted, I haven't taken this into Fractals yet, but this build has preformed very well in dungeons and WvW.

Edited by ScorpioSpork, 01 February 2013 - 10:58 AM.


#2 GuanglaiKangyi

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 02:26 AM

Other than specific builds (see: mine), swords simply aren't very good.  Greatswords and 1H swords are both primarily damage weapons, except the caveat is that greatsword deals more and has better AOE.  The biggest advantage of 1H sword is that it works with RH Strength, but even with that the GS still does more.  As such, unless your build has some other use for a high crit rate (again, see: mine), there's simply no reason to take a 1H sword in PvE.  The primary advantage of the sword is that it is high (but not as high as GS) damage output on a single target and all of its damage comes from the auto-attack, so it is much harder to kite and DPS won't be affected by chill or interrupts.  These generally aren't concerns in PvE (except in HotW) so those advantages are mostly irrelevant.

Also, Valkyrie gear isn't DPS gear.

#3 LLovegood

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 03:05 AM

There's nothing wrong with 1handed sword lol. People just don't like that you have to be stood still for one of the attacks. :P It's my weapon of choice for bosses with torch as an offhand and a greatsword to switch to. Dish out the pain, swap, dish out the pain, swap, dish out the pain. etc etc. The AoE capability of it isn't particularly amazing but not everything is about AoEing... If we go with the argument that 1hand sword isn't as good at AoEing, we could also go with the argument that 2hand sword isn't as great for single target boss fights, 1 hard attack, a nice leap and retaliation isn't that great since you're waiting for a while for it all to cooldown... auto attacking is not particularly good DPS on any weapon, that's why we have the swap function. With that in mind, 1hand sword auto is 5 attacks within 3 which would make it marginally better.. and no it's not much harder to kite and dps with a 1hand sword..

Anyway all I'm saying is you're not at fault for wanting/liking the 1hand sword. Don't give in to the haters! Also nice build, the crit chance from traits compliments the crit damage from Valkyrie quite nicely. I'm betting you hit about as hard as if you were in knights but obviously with a bigger health pool :D

#4 ylistra

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 03:34 AM

Personally - it's just fun trolling boss mobs by chaining the AOE blind on GS and Sword.

#5 armoured bearshark

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 04:38 AM

Sword offers very little utility, support and trumped in dps by the gs. You can do content with it, I've had success with it in many places, coe, fractals, arah but you're really just gimping yourself and possibly your pt by not acknowledging the other weapons and their respective niches.


View PostLLovegood, on 01 February 2013 - 03:05 AM, said:

There's nothing wrong with 1handed sword lol. People just don't like that you have to be stood still for one of the attacks. :P It's my weapon of choice for bosses with torch as an offhand and a greatsword to switch to. Dish out the pain, swap, dish out the pain, swap, dish out the pain. etc etc. The AoE capability of it isn't particularly amazing but not everything is about AoEing... If we go with the argument that 1hand sword isn't as good at AoEing, we could also go with the argument that 2hand sword isn't as great for single target boss fights, 1 hard attack, a nice leap and retaliation isn't that great since you're waiting for a while for it all to cooldown... auto attacking is not particularly good DPS on any weapon, that's why we have the swap function. With that in mind, 1hand sword auto is 5 attacks within 3 which would make it marginally better.. and no it's not much harder to kite and dps with a 1hand sword..

Anyway all I'm saying is you're not at fault for wanting/liking the 1hand sword. Don't give in to the haters! Also nice build, the crit chance from traits compliments the crit damage from Valkyrie quite nicely. I'm betting you hit about as hard as if you were in knights but obviously with a bigger health pool :D

except that the gs has more single target dps with a more defensive build than the 1h sword.

the 1h sword's auto attack does more damage than ZD, you'll be auto attacking forever if you want to maximize dps on the 1h sword

#6 ScorpioSpork

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 05:01 AM

View PostGuanglaiKangyi, on 01 February 2013 - 02:26 AM, said:

Other than specific builds (see: mine), swords simply aren't very good.  Greatswords and 1H swords are both primarily damage weapons, except the caveat is that greatsword deals more and has better AOE.  The biggest advantage of 1H sword is that it works with RH Strength, but even with that the GS still does more.  As such, unless your build has some other use for a high crit rate (again, see: mine), there's simply no reason to take a 1H sword in PvE.  The primary advantage of the sword is that it is high (but not as high as GS) damage output on a single target and all of its damage comes from the auto-attack, so it is much harder to kite and DPS won't be affected by chill or interrupts.  These generally aren't concerns in PvE (except in HotW) so those advantages are mostly irrelevant.

Also, Valkyrie gear isn't DPS gear.
Two out of three of Valkyrie's stats are offensive. I know isn't not "pure dps" gear, but I still consider it more offensive than defensive. But let's say for a moment that I replace my Valkyrie gear (my armor, weapons and back piece) with Berserker's. I'd lose 3,680 health and gain an additional 17% crit chance. That's very tempting, especially after reading your guide (I wasn't aware of Omnomberry Pie).

But then again, I really like that 3.6k hp buffer. And when I think of my role in a party as a Guardian, I just don't think of a glass cannon. I guess that's my personal preference.

View PostLLovegood, on 01 February 2013 - 03:05 AM, said:

There's nothing wrong with 1handed sword lol. People just don't like that you have to be stood still for one of the attacks. :P It's my weapon of choice for bosses with torch as an offhand and a greatsword to switch to. Dish out the pain, swap, dish out the pain, swap, dish out the pain. etc etc. The AoE capability of it isn't particularly amazing but not everything is about AoEing... If we go with the argument that 1hand sword isn't as good at AoEing, we could also go with the argument that 2hand sword isn't as great for single target boss fights, 1 hard attack, a nice leap and retaliation isn't that great since you're waiting for a while for it all to cooldown... auto attacking is not particularly good DPS on any weapon, that's why we have the swap function. With that in mind, 1hand sword auto is 5 attacks within 3 which would make it marginally better.. and no it's not much harder to kite and dps with a 1hand sword..

Anyway all I'm saying is you're not at fault for wanting/liking the 1hand sword. Don't give in to the haters! Also nice build, the crit chance from traits compliments the crit damage from Valkyrie quite nicely. I'm betting you hit about as hard as if you were in knights but obviously with a bigger health pool :D
Yeah, I don't feel like AoE is enough of a reason to go with Greatsword. It's a great weapon, but I think I'd rather have Right-Hand Strength and a Focus. And with Sword+Scepter I'm more likely to keep weapon swap on cooldown than with Greatsword+Staff. I feel like I get the full benefit of both weapon sets instead of saying to myself, "I guess I'll carry Staff for Empower."

I feel like I don't really need a higher crit chance than 50%, so Valkyrie seemed like a good choice. Any extra precision seems like a waste, especially when most on-crit effects have a cooldown. Plus I think there's a bigger benefit to surviving burst than doing a little more damage.

#7 ScorpioSpork

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 05:17 AM

View Postarmoured bearshark, on 01 February 2013 - 04:38 AM, said:

Sword offers very little utility, support and trumped in dps by the gs. You can do content with it, I've had success with it in many places, coe, fractals, arah but you're really just gimping yourself and possibly your pt by not acknowledging the other weapons and their respective niches.
Sword gives me an auto-attack, a blink and blind, and whatever you want to call Zealot's Defense.

Greatsword's auto-attack is better. Greatsword also gets a leap and blind. But Greatsword doesn't let me carry a Focus or gain the benefit of Right-Hand Strength. And the difference in the auto-attacks' dps is pretty minor in my opinion.

Believe me, if I could wield Greatsword in one hand, I would. But I don't think I'm gimping myself by choosing sword. Whatever utility and support Greatsword provides can be matched by the right off-hand. And to get the same crit chance with Greatsword, I have to give up some other stat. That's the real benefit to Sword, in my opinion. (And it's loads of fun in WvW).

#8 Korra

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 08:01 AM

View PostScorpioSpork, on 01 February 2013 - 02:07 AM, said:

I get the benefits of Fiery Wrath, Elusive Power and Radiant Power for an extra +30% damage. I also have Powerful Blades for another 5% increase with Sword. Empowering Might triggers on every other attack. I also use Sigils of Strength (30% chance on crit to gain might) and Battle (might on weapon swap) for all the might I could ever want.


You know that when one of the sigils triggers both go on cooldown right? So if you proc strenght battle won't work for the next 9 seconds and if battle procs strenght won't proc for the next 9 seconds :)

#9 armoured bearshark

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 09:23 AM

View PostScorpioSpork, on 01 February 2013 - 05:17 AM, said:

Sword gives me an auto-attack, a blink and blind, and whatever you want to call Zealot's Defense.

Greatsword's auto-attack is better. Greatsword also gets a leap and blind. But Greatsword doesn't let me carry a Focus or gain the benefit of Right-Hand Strength. And the difference in the auto-attacks' dps is pretty minor in my opinion.

Believe me, if I could wield Greatsword in one hand, I would. But I don't think I'm gimping myself by choosing sword. Whatever utility and support Greatsword provides can be matched by the right off-hand. And to get the same crit chance with Greatsword, I have to give up some other stat. That's the real benefit to Sword, in my opinion. (And it's loads of fun in WvW).

blinds dont work on bosses all the time, zealot's defense does lower damage than a lot of people thinks it does but it blocks (some) ranged attacks. Even if you have right hand strength the gs can still outdps the 1h sword on single targets,I havent tried guang's miracle dps 1hand sword build yet but, that remains the case in most situations.

The mace can block attacks and has a spamable light field that grants regen with a small aoe heal on the 3rd auto attack, the scepter is ranged, the hammer is tankier than sword with a spamable light+ blast combo that heals via AH for A LOTwith near infinite protection uptime and the gs has the dps. aoe and single target.

The only offhand that can match the GS utility is the shield, grants protection in a cone, absorbs projectiles in an area, is a light field, can push back foes and be detonated to heal. The gs can create a light field that grants retaliation, has a leap finisher, highly spammable aoe dps in auto attack and all abilities, has a whirl finisher and an aoe pull. The sword has no combo finishers, no combo fields, a single target blind that is mostly useless against bosses or a large group of adds, a short ranged auto attack nuke chain for 1-3 targets that doesn't hit destructibles sometime and a channeled ranged attack block.

The sword sounds kinna okayish on paper but when you use one in game it is easily outclassed by all the other weapons, not just gs. It's an AWESOME weapon in pvp but there is no place for it in pve as it stands unless you want to gimp your team. I mean sure you can clear content with it but if you'd have used another weapon set in it's niche then you still would have cleared it and chances are, cleared it smoother and faster.

#10 lmaonade

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 09:29 AM

there is no reason to take the 1 hand sword over other weapons, other than personal preference that is. If you like it then use it, it's an okay weapon, it's not optimal but if you like how it plays and like using one then don't let anyone else tell you otherwise.

#11 ScorpioSpork

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 10:57 AM

View PostKorra, on 01 February 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

You know that when one of the sigils triggers both go on cooldown right? So if you proc strenght battle won't work for the next 9 seconds and if battle procs strenght won't proc for the next 9 seconds :)
I wasn't aware of the hidden cooldowns on both of those sigils. I've been using Sigils of Accuracy on my off-hands, so I didn't notice in-game. But thanks for pointing that out! I'll have to adjust my post.

View Postarmoured bearshark, on 01 February 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

blinds dont work on bosses all the time, zealot's defense does lower damage than a lot of people thinks it does but it blocks (some) ranged attacks. Even if you have right hand strength the gs can still outdps the 1h sword on single targets,I havent tried guang's miracle dps 1hand sword build yet but, that remains the case in most situations.

The mace can block attacks and has a spamable light field that grants regen with a small aoe heal on the 3rd auto attack, the scepter is ranged, the hammer is tankier than sword with a spamable light+ blast combo that heals via AH for A LOTwith near infinite protection uptime and the gs has the dps. aoe and single target.

The only offhand that can match the GS utility is the shield, grants protection in a cone, absorbs projectiles in an area, is a light field, can push back foes and be detonated to heal. The gs can create a light field that grants retaliation, has a leap finisher, highly spammable aoe dps in auto attack and all abilities, has a whirl finisher and an aoe pull. The sword has no combo finishers, no combo fields, a single target blind that is mostly useless against bosses or a large group of adds, a short ranged auto attack nuke chain for 1-3 targets that doesn't hit destructibles sometime and a channeled ranged attack block.

The sword sounds kinna okayish on paper but when you use one in game it is easily outclassed by all the other weapons, not just gs. It's an AWESOME weapon in pvp but there is no place for it in pve as it stands unless you want to gimp your team. I mean sure you can clear content with it but if you'd have used another weapon set in it's niche then you still would have cleared it and chances are, cleared it smoother and faster.
Well, from what I understand Guang uses Sword so he can crit more often and proc effects. That's the main reason to go 1h Sword anyway. And the higher crit chance and off-hand options has been my main argument for using Sword in the first place (especially since Scepter and Mace gain those same benefits).

Mace is great, but its attack speed and damage doesn't compare. It's a good option, but with two defensive off-hands, I don't feel like I need Mace. Hammer is great too, but only if you trait for it. And again, Greatsword's dps really isn't that much higher than Sword. And I proc on-crit effects like Empowering Might and Sigil of Strength much more often, which makes up for the dps difference in my opinion.

And since I can swap between Sword and Scepter without dropping my dps, I can get the full benefit of both Shield and Focus. And the Sword's blind is AoE. In either case, you're comparing 3 skills against 5 skills. And if I'm trying to hit a destructible, I just drop a Smite on it.

I still don't see how Sword is "easily outclassed" and I'll "gimp my team" by using it. Let's take a look at Guang's build. Compared to the typical 2h AH build, Guang does much more damage and procs Empowering Might much more often. And because of Right-Hand Strength, Sword does this better than Greatsword.

To me, it's not really Sword vs Greatsword. I think a good Sword build is just as viable as a good Greatsword build. That's all I've been trying to argue. And I just have yet to see enough evidence to keep me from using Sword.

#12 Rukioish

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 02:52 PM

How about them hammers? /wink


#13 Bender222

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 05:10 PM

sword does have a combo finisher, flashing blade is a leap. GS still beats it though.

#14 indure

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 06:37 PM

View PostScorpioSpork, on 01 February 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

I still don't see how Sword is "easily outclassed" and I'll "gimp my team" by using it. Let's take a look at Guang's build. Compared to the typical 2h AH build, Guang does much more damage and procs Empowering Might much more often. And because of Right-Hand Strength, Sword does this better than Greatsword.

There is no prove of this at all. That build was posted like 2 days ago and hasn't been thoroughly tested. As for EM procs it has a 1 second internal cooldown so even if you have 100% chance to crit you still can only at best proc it twice per sword AA chain even if you crit all 6 attacks. The point is criting every other attack is just as helpful as criting all attacks.

As for your specific build: I don't know your exact attributes but comparing to a GS DPS build they are going to have equal power to you, equal crit chance, similar/more survivability, more base weapon damage, and +30% crit damage.

That being said, you are more than welcome to use a sword in your build and it will work fine, but it is not optimal.

Edited by indure, 01 February 2013 - 06:41 PM.


#15 GuanglaiKangyi

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 07:30 PM

View Postindure, on 01 February 2013 - 06:37 PM, said:

There is no prove of this at all. That build was posted like 2 days ago and hasn't been thoroughly tested. As for EM procs it has a 1 second internal cooldown so even if you have 100% chance to crit you still can only at best proc it twice per sword AA chain even if you crit all 6 attacks. The point is criting every other attack is just as helpful as criting all attacks.

As for your specific build: I don't know your exact attributes but comparing to a GS DPS build they are going to have equal power to you, equal crit chance, similar/more survivability, more base weapon damage, and +30% crit damage.

That being said, you are more than welcome to use a sword in your build and it will work fine, but it is not optimal.

Empowering Might will be limited by the internal cooldown.  Howeve,r a high crit rate is still better since it will prevent you from "missing"  might procs if your swing does not crit.  Also, while Sigil of Strength also has an internal CD, it usually only functions to keep you from getting massive stacks of might on a multi-hit attack like Whirling Wrath.  Otherwise, most of the time it will actually not be on CD, since unlike Empowering Might, which procs on all crits, Sigil of Strength is only a 30% chance.  With a crit rate of 55% on GS (which is what you'll get with full berserker and 30 in Radiance) that's only 16.5% chance of getting might with any given hit.  1H sword when built properly will always have a higher crit rate; in fact, this is how you get damage out of it since otherwise your auto-attack actually has the same base damage as the GS auto-attack.  Between RH Strength and the extra sigil on offhand being Accuracy, 1H sword will always have a 20% higher crit chance than the same build on greatsword, so your chance of geting Strength on hit goes up to 22.5%.  That's a 36% boost in the number of might procs you get per hit.

Yes, in general GS is better for damage, but sword can be built to take advantage of its strengths.  You just have to do it right.

#16 indure

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 08:24 PM

View PostGuanglaiKangyi, on 01 February 2013 - 07:30 PM, said:

Empowering Might will be limited by the internal cooldown.  Howeve,r a high crit rate is still better since it will prevent you from "missing"  might procs if your swing does not crit.  Also, while Sigil of Strength also has an internal CD, it usually only functions to keep you from getting massive stacks of might on a multi-hit attack like Whirling Wrath.  Otherwise, most of the time it will actually not be on CD, since unlike Empowering Might, which procs on all crits, Sigil of Strength is only a 30% chance.  With a crit rate of 55% on GS (which is what you'll get with full berserker and 30 in Radiance) that's only 16.5% chance of getting might with any given hit.  1H sword when built properly will always have a higher crit rate; in fact, this is how you get damage out of it since otherwise your auto-attack actually has the same base damage as the GS auto-attack.  Between RH Strength and the extra sigil on offhand being Accuracy, 1H sword will always have a 20% higher crit chance than the same build on greatsword, so your chance of geting Strength on hit goes up to 22.5%.  That's a 36% boost in the number of might procs you get per hit.

Yes, in general GS is better for damage, but sword can be built to take advantage of its strengths.  You just have to do it right.

Completely agree on the increase crit helping EM, but won't it come to a point where too much crit really isn't going to be drastically changing EM proc %. For example if you take a 60% crit chance and a 75% crit chance and compare EM procs, they are basically going to be the same since both will proc 1-2 EM per AA chain. You have almost a guarantee chance to proc EM on the 3rd attack and the only difference between 1 or 2 EM procs is whether your first attack is a crit or not. Statistically 75% will crit the first attack more often than 60%, but both will crit more often then not and in the course of a minute it may only be 3-5 more EM procs for 15% more crit.

It has been a while since I've played extensively with a sword, but does it cleave 3 targets on all AA's?

If it does then the sword's EM proc chances are even more moot with higher crit, and if it doesn't then any fight with more then 1 opponent would favor the GS in EM procs since all three attacks can hit 3 opponents and symbols can also proc EM.

The Might sigil on the other hand is much better with higher crit chances because of the 33% additional chance needed to proc.

#17 GuanglaiKangyi

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 09:19 PM

View Postindure, on 01 February 2013 - 08:24 PM, said:

Completely agree on the increase crit helping EM, but won't it come to a point where too much crit really isn't going to be drastically changing EM proc %. For example if you take a 60% crit chance and a 75% crit chance and compare EM procs, they are basically going to be the same since both will proc 1-2 EM per AA chain. You have almost a guarantee chance to proc EM on the 3rd attack and the only difference between 1 or 2 EM procs is whether your first attack is a crit or not. Statistically 75% will crit the first attack more often than 60%, but both will crit more often then not and in the course of a minute it may only be 3-5 more EM procs for 15% more crit.

It has been a while since I've played extensively with a sword, but does it cleave 3 targets on all AA's?

If it does then the sword's EM proc chances are even more moot with higher crit, and if it doesn't then any fight with more then 1 opponent would favor the GS in EM procs since all three attacks can hit 3 opponents and symbols can also proc EM.

The Might sigil on the other hand is much better with higher crit chances because of the 33% additional chance needed to proc.

Yeah, it does cleave.  The sheer amount of NUMBERS that appears if you hit a big horde of gravelings or something is great.

#18 Flour

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 09:26 PM

This GS or Sword chat has been interesting and I'm following it to find a build for me to start use, now that I'm building my gear. Have bloods for 3 berserker gear, now the question is, should I continue start farming bloods or go for 15x Armored Scale and build me into Strife's GS/Staff build.

I'm so curious about Guanglai's build, using Sword/GS - which would mean using GS spells then swap to Sword while spells cooldown - What you say about this Guanglai? Is it to offensive?

#19 armoured bearshark

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 09:56 PM

View PostScorpioSpork, on 01 February 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

*snip* Hammer is great too, but only if you trait for it. And again, Greatsword's dps really isn't that much higher than Sword. And I proc on-crit effects like Empowering Might and Sigil of Strength much more often, which makes up for the dps difference in my opinion.

And since I can swap between Sword and Scepter without dropping my dps, I can get the full benefit of both Shield and Focus. And the Sword's blind is AoE. In either case, you're comparing 3 skills against 5 skills. And if I'm trying to hit a destructible, I just drop a Smite on it.

I still don't see how Sword is "easily outclassed" and I'll "gimp my team" by using it. Let's take a look at Guang's build. Compared to the typical 2h AH build, Guang does much more damage and procs Empowering Might much more often. And because of Right-Hand Strength, Sword does this better than Greatsword.

To me, it's not really Sword vs Greatsword. I think a good Sword build is just as viable as a good Greatsword build. That's all I've been trying to argue. And I just have yet to see enough evidence to keep me from using Sword.

Well if you're so adamant on using it then I can't persuade you otherwise, some1 said already if you really want to use sword then go for it, but I want to tell you some facts and share my experience using the sword compared to other weapons so that you know what you're getting yourself into.

The main thing is you give up AH and AH keeps you in melee range a lot lot longer than a non-AH build, that is even if sword does " similiar" damage to an AH gs, the AH gs will always have more survivability and can stay in melee a lot longer as well as get that extra crit damage from the valor line. It's something you have to experience to know, the boss will be meleeing you, inflicting conditions and you won't be getting any heals, the blinds on the sword won't help and zd won't help either not to mention your blast finisher is on a 40 second cd so you cant blast an ally's fields for things like area healing, area retaliation and etc, all those boons you can get from combo finishers heals you via AH. Your build is giving up a LOT in versatility for a much higher crit chance but all of guardian on crit effects and most sigils have an internal cooldown.

This wouldn't matter on a capable team as sigil of blood (use blood it if you want to do AH-less sword) will keep you in the fight and you can combo it's effect with omnomberry pie. The swords lack of versatility shows when paired with less capable teams and doing harder content. The utility from the other weapon sets combined with AH lets them sit in melee range for lot longer, even AH staff can sit in melee range, utility and versatility is what is needed to distribute your damage and no, you don't need to trait for hammer for it to be useful, its overkill.


EDIT:

View Postindure, on 01 February 2013 - 08:24 PM, said:

It has been a while since I've played extensively with a sword, but does it cleave 3 targets on all AA's?
The first two strikes on it's auto attack will hit all enemies in range but the 3rd hit will only hit if the target in front of you is targeted even if its directly in front of you...

Edited by armoured bearshark, 01 February 2013 - 10:07 PM.


#20 GuanglaiKangyi

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 12:04 AM

View PostFlour, on 01 February 2013 - 09:26 PM, said:

This GS or Sword chat has been interesting and I'm following it to find a build for me to start use, now that I'm building my gear. Have bloods for 3 berserker gear, now the question is, should I continue start farming bloods or go for 15x Armored Scale and build me into Strife's GS/Staff build.

I'm so curious about Guanglai's build, using Sword/GS - which would mean using GS spells then swap to Sword while spells cooldown - What you say about this Guanglai? Is it to offensive?

GS swap works.  That's actually what I do when I need to maximize DPS.  You are free to run whatever build you want but keep in mind that Strife's build doesn't actually do any damage, so if that's what you're looking for you'll probably be pretty disappointed.

That said, I like to talk shit about Strife and he talks shit about me, so I don't think we're objective sources of opinion on each other's builds.

#21 Flour

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 12:15 AM

I guess your build is pretty much about having the food as well, to survive.
But same with strifes build, you need the food he use to get the crit chance needed to do damage, unless you have warriors in your group.

I think your builds are pretty even, maybe he stays alive 100% of the fight. But the damage he does is probably the same you do if you die at 25% (75% alive) not getting revived.

Edited by Flour, 02 February 2013 - 12:15 AM.


#22 GuanglaiKangyi

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 12:29 AM

View PostFlour, on 02 February 2013 - 12:15 AM, said:

I guess your build is pretty much about having the food as well, to survive.
But same with strifes build, you need the food he use to get the crit chance needed to do damage, unless you have warriors in your group.

I think your builds are pretty even, maybe he stays alive 100% of the fight. But the damage he does is probably the same you do if you die at 25% (75% alive) not getting revived.

Well, it's easier to use food to get lots of healing than it is to boost your damage significantly.  The healing I get from Omnoms is, in my experience, about equivalent to what you'd get from AH in a dungeon and the damage I deal is much higher.  In general I've found that if I'm dying on my sword build, I'd be dying on my AH build anyway so that's a moot point.

#23 ScorpioSpork

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 01:17 AM

View Postarmoured bearshark, on 01 February 2013 - 09:56 PM, said:

Well if you're so adamant on using it then I can't persuade you otherwise, some1 said already if you really want to use sword then go for it, but I want to tell you some facts and share my experience using the sword compared to other weapons so that you know what you're getting yourself into.

The main thing is you give up AH and AH keeps you in melee range a lot lot longer than a non-AH build, that is even if sword does " similiar" damage to an AH gs, the AH gs will always have more survivability and can stay in melee a lot longer as well as get that extra crit damage from the valor line. It's something you have to experience to know, the boss will be meleeing you, inflicting conditions and you won't be getting any heals, the blinds on the sword won't help and zd won't help either not to mention your blast finisher is on a 40 second cd so you cant blast an ally's fields for things like area healing, area retaliation and etc, all those boons you can get from combo finishers heals you via AH. Your build is giving up a LOT in versatility for a much higher crit chance but all of guardian on crit effects and most sigils have an internal cooldown.

This wouldn't matter on a capable team as sigil of blood (use blood it if you want to do AH-less sword) will keep you in the fight and you can combo it's effect with omnomberry pie. The swords lack of versatility shows when paired with less capable teams and doing harder content. The utility from the other weapon sets combined with AH lets them sit in melee range for lot longer, even AH staff can sit in melee range, utility and versatility is what is needed to distribute your damage and no, you don't need to trait for hammer for it to be useful, its overkill.
You put forward a very good argument, I'll admit. I'll try running Greatsword or Hammer and AH again.

I still think Sword is viable, but I can't say it's better. I do miss having finishers.

#24 indure

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 02:45 AM

Tested EM procs in mist this evening at 60% crit chance and 75% crit chance both with a steady sword on heavy golems. And at 60% crit chance golem died on average at 40s with 20 EM procs. With 75% crit chance he died at 37s with 20 EM procs. With 75% crit chance, if the golem would have lasted until 40s it would most likely be 1 extra EM proc. Which to me indicates that once a certain threshold of crit is reach any extra precision will not increase the proccing of EM.

Edited by indure, 02 February 2013 - 02:49 AM.


#25 Devious

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 02:58 AM

Except that, sword has the highest single-target damage.

Also whoever's saying Valyrie gear isn't dps gear is plain dumb. Just saying.

Edited by Devious, 02 February 2013 - 02:58 AM.


#26 Puandro

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 04:17 AM

View PostDevious, on 02 February 2013 - 02:58 AM, said:

Except that, sword has the highest single-target damage.

Also whoever's saying Valyrie gear isn't dps gear is plain dumb. Just saying.

Except that it does not.

#27 Flour

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 04:22 AM

View PostGuanglaiKangyi, on 02 February 2013 - 12:29 AM, said:

Well, it's easier to use food to get lots of healing than it is to boost your damage significantly.  The healing I get from Omnoms is, in my experience, about equivalent to what you'd get from AH in a dungeon and the damage I deal is much higher.  In general I've found that if I'm dying on my sword build, I'd be dying on my AH build anyway so that's a moot point.

Finished my bloods today so I can craft berserker gear. But only have exotic GS berserker now. And neck/amulet etc is really crap. I need a exotic sword and focus, which is my personal favourite cos of the block.



View Postindure, on 02 February 2013 - 02:45 AM, said:

Tested EM procs in mist this evening at 60% crit chance and 75% crit chance both with a steady sword on heavy golems. And at 60% crit chance golem died on average at 40s with 20 EM procs. With 75% crit chance he died at 37s with 20 EM procs. With 75% crit chance, if the golem would have lasted until 40s it would most likely be 1 extra EM proc. Which to me indicates that once a certain threshold of crit is reach any extra precision will not increase the proccing of EM.

At what crit % would you say "stop" ?
And, which berserker gear would you switch out to "stop" the crit chance from getting higher and what gear would you replace it with?

Would be nice to hear Guanglai's words about this.

Edited by Flour, 02 February 2013 - 04:32 AM.


#28 GuanglaiKangyi

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 05:50 AM

View PostFlour, on 02 February 2013 - 04:22 AM, said:

Finished my bloods today so I can craft berserker gear. But only have exotic GS berserker now. And neck/amulet etc is really crap. I need a exotic sword and focus, which is my personal favourite cos of the block.





At what crit % would you say "stop" ?
And, which berserker gear would you switch out to "stop" the crit chance from getting higher and what gear would you replace it with?

Would be nice to hear Guanglai's words about this.

Even if it doesn't proc EM any more it will still improve your chances of proccing Sigil of Strength and/or lifesteals.  it also increases your DPS over any given period of time so it's still worth getting as high as possible.

In general, my philosophy is that you don't NEED any defensive stats if you just know how to dodge and react, and have a decently balanced trait spread.  There's only three damage stats that matter and Berserker has all of them so it's not like you're really giving anything up by having "too much" crit chance.  And there's no such thing as too much crit chance.

#29 TheKnox

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 06:24 AM

I just wanted to add that after crunching some numbers with my spreadsheet, it appears that even in a build with RHS, the Hammer and Greatsword STILL do roughly the same damage as the 1H sword.  You're certainly welcome to use the 1H sword if you like the playstyle, but you're almost certainly won't do more damage than somebody using a 2H weapon to DPS.

edited because I'm bad at math.

Edited by TheKnox, 02 February 2013 - 07:41 AM.


#30 GuanglaiKangyi

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 06:52 AM

View PostTheKnox, on 02 February 2013 - 06:24 AM, said:

I just wanted to add that after crunching some numbers with my spreadsheet, it appears that even in a build with RHS, the Hammer and Greatsword STILL do more damage than the 1H sword.  You're certainly welcome to use the 1H sword if you like the playstyle, but you're almost certainly going to do less damage than somebody using a 2H DPS weapon.

Like I said in the other thread, I think you may have a problem in your spreadsheet that is putting the sword number too low.  Based on my own estimations the sword and hammer hit roughly equivalent numbers before the Elusive Power nerf.  Obviously both are affected, but the difference is that to get max DPS the hammer still needs to go 30 into Honor, because it needs both Writ of Persistence and Empowering Might, so it loses a straight 10% damage.  By comparison the sword only needs to go 20 into Honor so it can offset the 10% loss by going into Valor instead for the extra crit chance and damage.





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