51 replies to this topic

[indure]

Tested Sigil of Superior Strength on same golem with the same set-up as the EM procs with 60% and 75% crit chances. Did not trait for EM so I could count just Sigil procs. Although the range of procs could vary by 4-5 per test, the average both mean and mode after 8 tests of each was 12 procs for both crit chances and both killed the golem in roughly 40s.

From what I could observe, it looked like the primary contributor for procs was the expected 3rd attack since it attacks 3 times. The sigil reliably procced on that attack over 50% of the time.

I would love for some one to do more extensive testing since I don't have the time and energy for it, but until proven wrong I believe that once you start getting over 60% crit chance your not going to be increasing proc chances high enough to have noticeable differences for both EM or Sigil of Superior Strength/Blood. The only noticeable difference would be higher damage output and more procs from the lifesteal food buff since it has no internal cooldown (I think).

[Devious]

Puandro, on 02 February 2013 - 04:17 AM, said:

Except that it does not.

Except it does, anyway, not gnna argue with baddies!

[Puandro]

Devious, on 02 February 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

Except it does, anyway, not gnna argue with baddies!

Sword has a .8, .8, and .5(x3) Modifier on its #1 Chain.

GS has a .8, .8, 1.2 Modifier on its #1 Chain

Both have a 2.5 cast time on its #1 chain.

Due to sword having a lower Damage Weapon then GS, sword does a tiny bit less DPS with its #1. Even when you add Right Handed Strength, it can't keep up with GS when you add its CD's.

Its not a factor of being good or bad, its a factor if simple numbers.

[Devious]

Puandro, on 02 February 2013 - 07:26 PM, said:

Sword has a .8, .8, and .5(x3) Modifier on its #1 Chain.

GS has a .8, .8, 1.2 Modifier on its #1 Chain

Both have a 2.5 cast time on its #1 chain.

Due to sword having a lower Damage Weapon then GS, sword does a tiny bit less DPS with its #1. Even when you add Right Handed Strength, it can't keep up with GS when you add its CD's.

Its not a factor of being good or bad, its a factor if simple numbers.

Sword has faster attack speed and   the 3x hit makes up for the lower damage modifier, seriously some people..

Chain with sword:
688, 688, 1290 x 3 = 5246 damage.
Zealot's Defence: 2272 damage (15 sec cd) (takes 30 sec)
=7518

Chain with GS:
744, 744, 1116 (not adding the 3s might) = 2604
Whirling Wrath: 3141 (10 sec cd) (takes 45 sec)
=5745 (It is higher if you can put SoW under your target though, but your targets mostly move around, unless it's a boss.)

Edited by Devious, 03 February 2013 - 01:03 AM.

[TheKnox]

952.5 (1h sword avg damage) x .8 = 762
952.5 x .8 = 762
952.5 x .5 x 3 = 1429
2953

Greatsword

1047.5 x .8 = 838
1047.5 x .8 = 838
1047.5 x 1.2 = 1257
2933

Both chains take the same time to execute.  This ignores the might you get from the greatsword, which would make them essentially the same damage.  The difference is that the greatsword has 3 other abilities that actually add to your damage output, which is why people are telling you that it does more damage.

You could argue that the 1h sword gets 5 attacks to proc VoJ, compared to the 3 on the greatsword, but Whirling Wrath, and the Symbol more than make up that gap in attacks per second.

If you'd like to provide something more concrete to back up your claim, feel free. Otherwise, the rest of us will continue to assume that you are wrong.

[Devious]

TheKnox, on 03 February 2013 - 12:55 AM, said:

-snip-

Your 1-handed sword numbers are wrong, read my post above yours.

[TheKnox]

It is 1290 total damage on the third attack of the chain divided up over 3 projectiles.  Basically, 430 x 3 using your numbers.  And Zealots does less damage per cast time than the 1h auto attack chain, so you are better off leaving it out completely from a pure damage point of view.

Obviously you can go test this to verify, or you can take a look at the numbers and decide if it makes sense for the 3rd attack in the chain to hit 6 times as hard as the other two attacks.

[Puandro]

TheKnox is almost entirely correct except the Zealot's Defense does add DPS but barely any TBH, its a 1.9s Channel.

[GuanglaiKangyi]

Puandro, on 03 February 2013 - 03:57 AM, said:

TheKnox is almost entirely correct except the Zealot's Defense does add DPS but barely any TBH, its a 1.9s Channel.

It's a 2.5s channel, which is the same as the auto-attack chain, and you can tell just by looking at the tooltips that auto-attack does more.

[Puandro]

GuanglaiKangyi, on 03 February 2013 - 05:03 AM, said:

It's a 2.5s channel, which is the same as the auto-attack chain, and you can tell just by looking at the tooltips that auto-attack does more.

I hit my Heal then que up Zealot's Defense.

http://i.imgur.com/eUkQtlW.jpg

Channel is over

http://i.imgur.com/1q1t7Kv.jpg

It's NOT a 2.5s Channel, which you would know if you would actually test things.

[GuanglaiKangyi]

Puandro, on 03 February 2013 - 05:16 AM, said:

I hit my Heal then que up Zealot's Defense.

http://i.imgur.com/eUkQtlW.jpg

Channel is over

http://i.imgur.com/1q1t7Kv.jpg

It's NOT a 2.5s Channel, which you would know if you would actually test things.

Ten seconds, four auto attack chains ending right on the 10s mark, or 1 ZD and 3 auto-attack chains ending right on the 10s mark.

Stop looking at just the animation and actually time the total duration of the skill.

[TheKnox]

I was able to spit out 10 auto attack chains in 25 seconds routinely.  If I put 2 ZD's in there, and 8 auto attack chains, I was able to get it down to 24 seconds.  I'd say that the 1.9 to 2.0 seconds for ZD is probably correct.

That does make ZD a minor DPS increase over the auto attack chain (about a 2.2% increase by my math), although some of that 2.2% comes from the additional burn damage, which isn't always applicable.

With that being said, using GK's 1h sword build, I can still get the greatsword to do virtually the same damage as the 1h sword/focus setup without swapping traits.  The fact that a build designed to maximize 1h sword damage can only out DPS the same spec using a greatsword by about 1% pretty much sums up the current state of affairs.

The highest single target DPS build I can get with full personal buffs + an external fury ends up at 3750 DPS with 15/25/0/30/0 using a greatsword.  (2H mastery turns out to be much higher DPS than symbols for the greatsword if you put together an actual rotation, it reduces the conflicts across abilities, which helps quite a bit.)

The closest I can get with a 1h sword is 3650.  If you start adding additional targets, the greatsword pulls away very quickly.  Single target, GS is ahead by about 3%, bump up to 3 targets, and that number jumps up to 11%.

Edited by TheKnox, 03 February 2013 - 06:56 AM.

[Puandro]

GuanglaiKangyi, on 03 February 2013 - 05:31 AM, said:

Ten seconds, four auto attack chains ending right on the 10s mark, or 1 ZD and 3 auto-attack chains ending right on the 10s mark.

Stop looking at just the animation and actually time the total duration of the skill.

You are wrong it's not 2.5. My time includes the actual aftercast that most abilities have.

[GuanglaiKangyi]

TheKnox, on 03 February 2013 - 06:43 AM, said:

I was able to spit out 10 auto attack chains in 25 seconds routinely.  If I put 2 ZD's in there, and 8 auto attack chains, I was able to get it down to 24 seconds.  I'd say that the 1.9 to 2.0 seconds for ZD is probably correct.

That does make ZD a minor DPS increase over the auto attack chain (about a 2.2% increase by my math), although some of that 2.2% comes from the additional burn damage, which isn't always applicable.

With that being said, using GK's 1h sword build, I can still get the greatsword to do virtually the same damage as the 1h sword/focus setup without swapping traits.  The fact that a build designed to maximize 1h sword damage can only out DPS the same spec using a greatsword by about 1% pretty much sums up the current state of affairs.

The highest single target DPS build I can get with full personal buffs + an external fury ends up at 3750 DPS with 15/25/0/30/0 using a greatsword.  (2H mastery turns out to be much higher DPS than symbols for the greatsword if you put together an actual rotation, it reduces the conflicts across abilities, which helps quite a bit.)

The closest I can get with a 1h sword is 3650.  If you start adding additional targets, the greatsword pulls away very quickly.  Single target, GS is ahead by about 3%, bump up to 3 targets, and that number jumps up to 11%.

How exactly are you measuring it?  Because I just tried it in LA again and i'm still getting 2.5s.  12 chains in one SYG vs 1 ZD + 11 chains in one SYG, even.

[TheKnox]

I used a stopwatch and timed 10 full auto-attack rotations, and ended up right at 25 seconds after several runs.  I then repeated the test using ZD twice and using 8 auto attack rotations, and I ended up at 24 +/- 0.1 seconds several runs in a row.  You could test over a longer window to see more accurately what the difference is, but it is definitely faster with ZD in the rotation.

[GuanglaiKangyi]

TheKnox, on 03 February 2013 - 07:26 AM, said:

I used a stopwatch and timed 10 full auto-attack rotations, and ended up right at 25 seconds after several runs.  I then repeated the test using ZD twice and using 8 auto attack rotations, and I ended up at 24 +/- 0.1 seconds several runs in a row.  You could test over a longer window to see more accurately what the difference is, but it is definitely faster with ZD in the rotation.

That would put your ZD at 4 seconds.  That would make it even worse than I originally thought.  On the other hand if I assume you typo'd that and meant to say ZD and 9 autos that would make it 1.5s for a ZD and I'm pretty sure it's nowhere near that fast.

That said, it does seem faster in terms of how much damage you put out.  I think it may just have a relatively fast channel then a longer-than-normal recovery which puts it at 2.5s, give or take.  Also if it's really 2s for the entire ZD then it'd be a 6.6% increase in damage.  Your spreadsheet is convenient but I think you may have more than a few errors in it, at least as far as swords are concerned.

Edited by GuanglaiKangyi, 03 February 2013 - 08:15 AM.

[Puandro]

GuanglaiKangyi, on 03 February 2013 - 08:12 AM, said:

That would put your ZD at 4 seconds.  That would make it even worse than I originally thought.

That said, it does seem faster in terms of how much damage you put out.  I think it may just have a relatively fast channel then a longer-than-normal recovery which puts it at 2.5s, give or take.  Also if it's really 2s for the entire ZD then it'd be a 6.6% increase in damage.  Your spreadsheet is convenient but I think you may have more than a few errors in it, at least as far as swords are concerned.

8 AA Chains and 2 ZD's in 24 seconds = 1 ZD at 2 seconds, not 4. There is no scenario where Sword > GS with any current trait setup.

[TheKnox]

Assuming that power is equal to target armor:

AA chain:
(.8+.8+.5x3)*952.5/2.5 = 1181.1 dps

ZD:
2.65 * 952.5 / 2 = 1262.1 dps

(1181.1*15 + 1262.1*2)/17 = 1184.8 dps

That's an incredible 0.3% dps increase. If you use 1.9 instead of 2 for the cast time, it jumps up to a blazing 1.4% increase.  

My spreadsheet isn't perfect by any means, but at least it gives you credit for the procs you get off the extra attacks.  Otherwise, it would only be 0.3-1.4% better than just auto attacking.

For clarity: the 15 2 and 17 come from the cooldown on ZD, which starts once the cast is complete. 2 seconds to activate ZD, and 15 seconds of AA chains until ZD is ready again for a total of 17 seconds.

[GuanglaiKangyi]

TheKnox, on 03 February 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

Assuming that power is equal to target armor:

AA chain:
(.8+.8+.5x3)*952.5/2.5 = 1181.1 dps

ZD:
2.65 * 952.5 / 2 = 1262.1 dps

(1181.1*15 + 1262.1*2)/17 = 1184.8 dps

That's an incredible 0.3% dps increase. If you use 1.9 instead of 2 for the cast time, it jumps up to a blazing 1.4% increase.  

My spreadsheet isn't perfect by any means, but at least it gives you credit for the procs you get off the extra attacks.  Otherwise, it would only be 0.3-1.4% better than just auto attacking.

For clarity: the 15 2 and 17 come from the cooldown on ZD, which starts once the cast is complete. 2 seconds to activate ZD, and 15 seconds of AA chains until ZD is ready again for a total of 17 seconds.

Oh, you're talking about the overall DPS increase over.  I thought you were talking about the raw damage it puts out.for the one skill use.

[ben911993]

An important thing to remember, if no one else has mentioned it, is that the 1h sword synergizes great with Empowering Might due to its fast attack speed. The chain is 5 hits in 2.5 seconds, so if you have decently high precision, you should proc EM 2 or 3 times per chain, more if you build for it. Combine that with Zealot's Defense and you can stack a lot of might on your allies. That said, the chain's 3rd hit seems to have a relatively narrow arc, so if you're surrounded by more enemies (or getting flanked) then greatsword would be better for EM. But for fighting a single target, I'd take 1h sword.

[Puandro]

EM has a Internal Cooldown above 1.5 seconds.

[Kovares]

Personally, the best buff I can think of for 1h sword would be to make inner fire work with zealot's flame again, as it was supposed to once. Other then that, I don't really see the niche for using it over 2h sword, because that one works better "out of the box" (i.e. unspecced for) and has overall much, much better utility.