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Why I hate games built around PvP and not PvE.


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#1 Methal11

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 01:57 PM

EDIT: This whole thread is proof enough that the PvPers in MMOs are the loudest crybabies. I mean look at the verbal stomping they are trying to give me LOL.

First of all I've played almost every major mmo released since Ultima.

I would rank them in the following order of favorites:

EQ1,
UO,
EQ2,
Vanilla WoW
GW2,
GW1,
DAoC,
LotR,
SWTOR,
Runescape,
ShadowBane.
Final Fantasy XI

But to be honest I'd rank everything under GW2 in the same category.

One thing i've always liked is ranks of difficulty. What I mean about that is having multiple tiers of mobs. Some that are easily killed, some that are unkillable. I think there should always be at least one dragon, or giant, or whatever that can not be killed. Now some may question the point of this. That point would be to remind the children that no mater how much time you throw away, your champ is NEVER going to be as developed as a 5,000 year old monster. Maybe in 5k years you'll be as strong. But not in a few weeks of grinding.


Back to my main point.
One thing that EQ did very well, was diversify that classes. No other MMO has done that as well as they did.

Then along game PVP.

Now all the MMOs being released are all balanced around PvP. Making every class equal in all regards.

Nothing screams BORING! as loud as that.

WoW started this garbage. The crying babies from PvP would slop over onto the forums and infect the game with their stupid, game dumbing, tantrums about how they couldn't kill x class, or that x ability was "op" or "unfair"

So what did ALL mmos do?

Made every class the same. Everyone does everything the same. Everyone is the DPS class, everyone is the tank, everyone is the healer, everyone can solo everything completely fairly and equally.

This kind of watered down boring boring boring dried up boringness is what makes MMOs grind fests of bordom.

Whats the point of leveling different classes if they all do the same crap?

Think about it this way. In EQ there was a class called Necro. A necro could snare a target (make its run speed really really slow) and fear it for close to 20 seconds. sick its pet, and put down some dots. If the fear broke early, the mob usually had the ability to kill both the pet and the necro. Gave you some "edge of the seat" aspect to fear kiting, as it was called.

If you were to put the above ability in PvP the crying would be loud enough to wake the dead.
So what did games do?
Fears got completely destroyed, and removed from the MMO world. (REAL FEARs not this "you dun been spooked just a hair" that guild wars 2 has.

another example.

Mages in WoW used to have an ability to go invisible, whilie invis they could move around and begin casting. As soon as they got a monsters attention invis would break. A PERFECT way to start a fight, and an even better way to explore the world.

Bring pvp babies into it, and the nerf bat started swinging. Infact it hit so hard the ability was completely removed from the game. And despite what the cry baby pvpers say, was never put back into the game.

Bring GW2 into the light.

While I like what they have done with the game not requiring a specific, and "set in stone" holy trinity of grouping, (tank and healer or no group)

in gw2 PvP is what decides who can do what, and which abilities each class gets.

Guardian is a tank right? lolz no. In PvP tanks are useless. No tanks in this game.

Necro's fear right? LOLZ no fear is OP in PvP so its limited to like 1/4th of a second. Not even enough time for you to even realize you've been feared.

I would love to see some amazing, and unique abilities introduced to each class, that ARE NOT BALANCED FOR PVP! (just nerf them when they are  used in pvp)

whats wrong with an elementalist getting a long cooldown nuke that does 20k dmg?

OH thats RIGHT Pfuking V stupidP The manipulative crybaby bastard child of MMOs.

"WAHHH! HE KEERED MAH IN WUN NUK!!! WQAAHHHH!HH!!!!"

If you say that it would make the game "unbalanced" in PvE you'd be wrong. Why? because if the monster catches the Ele he gets SQUISHED. Think cloth armor is going to stop a steel sword? Not a bit, so it BALANCES the game to have low defense toons do high dmg.

but is it like that? Nope. why? P crybaby V boring P.

Now a plate wearing warrior does the same amount of dmg as a cloth wearing elementalist.

The only difference between the classes in GW2 is the pretty armors, and the spell effects. But under the hood, everything is the same.

Thanks PvPers, you've ruined MMOs. Hope youre happy with yourselves.

Edited by Methal11, 04 February 2013 - 05:26 PM.


#2 xarallei

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 02:10 PM

What on earth are you talking about? Mage invis is still in wow. In fact you can even spec it to be instant cast. And I always say pvp and pve should just be totally separate. Then you don't worry about nerfs to one affecting the other.

#3 MordinArkham

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 02:20 PM

This post is wrong on sooo many levels... :D

First of the fear mechanic, i'm sorry but there's nothing interesting in depending on one skill that if fails/expires you are dead.
Second, Invisibility is still in WoW http://www.wowhead.com/spell=66, and still the same as it used to be.
You can make a tank out of any profession, some are more easily, some are much harder, but it only depends on your creativity and knowledge of the profession and the game.
Once there was a post about elementalist on this forum regarding of the difficulty level of that class, compared to how rewarding is to play wth it. It's a fact that playing an ele realy good is much harder than some of other professions, but if you can do that, you basicly can destroy nearly anything without them being able to touch you. What you want would destroy this concept, and tbh with the right gear and skill combinations, you can easily deal 20k dmg with an elementalist.
And how else can you break the "trinity" without in some way making every profession able to do the same things, just throught different means?

Edited by MordinArkham, 01 February 2013 - 02:23 PM.


#4 Andemius

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 02:25 PM

So what you're saying is you don't like balance?

View PostMethal11, on 01 February 2013 - 01:57 PM, said:

Guardian is a tank right? lolz no. In PvP tanks are useless. No tanks in this game.

From this I'd say you've not acutally done any pvp. Every team wants a bunker.

inb4lock

#5 Tyrantscreed

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 02:26 PM

So in summary you are saying, due to PvP, the uber PvE skills got a smack in the face and everything is on equal playing grounds which in your eyes is not fair - what a joke.

Sorry if fun, interesting and SKILL based PvP fights ruined your PvE game. There are still the Frenzy+100HB Warrior burst dmg that can down you if don't have sufficient Toughness or Vit - is it OP? No. Because you can dodge it.

The professions are "balanced" in PvE in some sense, so to stop any prejudice. i.e. "GLFNecros!" - Anet, in particular, focused GW2 on being playable with any and everyone, no barriers - remember you are playing for fun.

#6 Red_Falcon

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 02:30 PM

You do realize that PvP skills are split right?
PvE skills are unaffected by PvP changes.

#7 zwei2stein

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 02:33 PM

So you are annoyned because you can not abuse broken shit and that "correct" class you picked is not going to get you invites to party?

Door is that way, please close it from the othe side so that you can cry behind it.

#8 Coren

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 02:51 PM

Ummm you DO know they started splitting PvE skills and PvP skills right? They did that in GW1 and it worked.extremely well. Separating functionalities from one mode to the next kept both parties happier.

#9 Methal11

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 02:53 PM

look at all the mad pvpers...crybabies.

Quote

What on earth are you talking about? Mage invis is still in wow. In fact you can even spec it to be instant cast.

Is it now. So when you "invis" in wow you can see the other players? No, you can't. can you see anything at all?

No, nothing but a black and white garbled up smeared bob ross painting looking terrain.

can you cast?

No, can you do ANYTHING but run for the whole 3 second duration? NO

this thing wow calls "invis" is nothing but a aggro dump mages use, or a short duration stealth to stay alive 3 seconds longer before they get destroyed by that "tank" built warrior in PvP who is dealing more dmg than the leather wearing rogue.

Edited by Methal11, 01 February 2013 - 02:54 PM.


#10 raspberry jam

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 03:02 PM

View PostMethal11, on 01 February 2013 - 01:57 PM, said:

Thanks PvPers, you've ruined MMOs. Hope youre happy with yourselves.
You're welcome. And yes I am, I'm always happy when I win.

#11 MordinArkham

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 03:06 PM

I just realized... why the hell are you bring your WoW related problems to a GW forum? did they already ban you from those forums?

#12 Fizzypop

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 03:07 PM

View PostMethal11, on 01 February 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

look at all the mad pvpers...crybabies.



Is it now. So when you "invis" in wow you can see the other players? No, you can't. can you see anything at all?

No, nothing but a black and white garbled up smeared bob ross painting looking terrain.

can you cast?

No, can you do ANYTHING but run for the whole 3 second duration? NO

this thing wow calls "invis" is nothing but a aggro dump mages use, or a short duration stealth to stay alive 3 seconds longer before they get destroyed by that "tank" built warrior in PvP who is dealing more dmg than the leather wearing rogue.

You have never played a mage in wow pvp i'm guessing. Mages don't get "destroyed" by a tank unless they are terrible. Mages in wow have a load of escapes. Invis isn't really about staying alive longer its about getting yourself setup to do your combos without worrying about damage or testing points to see if you can take 'em. Its not hard to guess player movements most of them are predictable when they have to be around a flag point otherwise I win. Having the upper hand is extremely powerful in pvp regardless of what else you can do.

Edited by Fizzypop, 01 February 2013 - 03:09 PM.


#13 Afyael

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 03:10 PM

Hahahaha this game built around pvp? Don't make me laugh, they've sure added a ton of content for pvp! If you want to see a real pvp focused game, look no further than the first year and a half of GW1.

#14 Lunacy Polish

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 03:13 PM

This is hilarious.  

First a preface.  PvE in any MMO except maybe Tera (speculating) or a FPSMMO possibly is like a Nintendo game.  It is a matter of rote practice memorization and consistency.   There is nothing wrong with playing MMO PvE if you like it.  In fact some of my favorite games are all PvE.  GW2 in particular has done a good job of ensuring dungeon or Fractal running is nothing like PvP of either kind.

But within the MMO genre... dear God PvE bores me to death now that I have tried PvP.  Especially open world PvP.

Other players do not move in set patterns. They aren't leashed.  They don't stand on your Wells.  They remove conditions.  They keo looking for you if you stealth.  They dodge roll.  They throw up a block just in time to cancel your Burst.

Sometimes they do it insanely well.  Sometimes they do it very poorly.

Sometimes it is 1 on one.  Sometimes it is zerg v. Zerg.   You don't know where they are or how many.

You can't just run past the parts you want to skip without some opportunity cost.  You let them take a tower so you can get a supply camp?  That decision comes at a price.

Every single one of them is trying to outplay you and you are tasked with overcoming that.

This kind of challenge and sheer unpredictability is just something you can't get any other way.  I have seen crazy stuff that shouldn't happen, happen.  5 players killing 20 players without siege after being flanked from opposite sides.  Coming upon enemy players in strange places.  One lone charr sieging Golanta.

This kind of experience makes killing Badface McLootchest the Nasty Golem Riding Troll so boring in comparison for me.

I do PvE.  Mostly because I need the gear resources and gold to WvW better.

But PvP is the thing that keeps this genre of games interesting at all.  To confuse PvP for the lesser challenge is laughable.

#15 Edge

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 03:19 PM

It's not so much PvP itself as it is casualization. PvP has been casualized for the carebear masses so that it's easy.

I love an anything goes open PvP world because it's chaotic by nature. You tend to have more respect and disgust for people in games like that. There are more emotions when you win or lose and certain individuals are really well known. Clans are also more well known and there is a factor of prestige of getting into higher ranked clans that rule the world. Sometimes the only things that can bring the rich down from being richer are their own members stabbing a knife into their backs. With all the scamming and lying I think it's a thing of beauty.

... But the other 90% seems to disagree with me that it isn't "fair".

#16 Fizzypop

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 03:20 PM

Pvp is not the reason pve mobs are watered down and/or offer no real challenge. I don't know what the hell you are talking about, but you mention wow...not all classes can heal, tank, and dps in wow. Druids and paladins are the only ones that can do all three. Others can only do 2/3 or in some cases like a mage or rogue only one. It isn't even true in GW2. Thieves suck for support and guardians are king of it. So you are making zero sense with that argument. When does real fear need to be 10 seconds long? Seriously, the idea that "real fear" has to be for a specific amount of time to be called fear is ridic.

When the hell did elementalists ever have a nuke that did 20k damage? I must've missed that. I hardly die in pve...I play an elementalist. So I don't know what you are talking about there. I do think some classes need to have their skills increased in pve, but elementalist wouldn't be the first I'd put on that list.

#17 Fizzypop

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 03:25 PM

View PostEdge, on 01 February 2013 - 03:19 PM, said:

It's not so much PvP itself as it is casualization. PvP has been casualized for the carebear masses so that it's easy.

I love an anything goes open PvP world because it's chaotic by nature. You tend to have more respect and disgust for people in games like that. There are more emotions when you win or lose and certain individuals are really well known. Clans are also more well known and there is a factor of prestige of getting into higher ranked clans that rule the world. Sometimes the only things that can bring the rich down from being richer are their own members stabbing a knife into their backs. With all the scamming and lying I think it's a thing of beauty.

... But the other 90% seems to disagree with me that it isn't "fair".

The reason most games don't do open world pvp well is because not enough people are that interested in it. It just isn't self-sustaining. If people want that style of play the usually migrate to fps games. So the best you'll get is things like WvWvW or open world battlegrounds.

#18 matsif

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 03:41 PM

OP has a point about classes basically becoming more and more transparent to a point where there really is no diversity in group roles, but the post is done so badly that I'm not going to argue that point any longer than this sentence.

#19 Elgareth

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 03:46 PM

View PostMethal11, on 01 February 2013 - 01:57 PM, said:

Back to my main point.
One thing that EQ did very well, was diversify that classes. No other MMO has done that as well as they did.

Diversify as in "One Class can solo very well, while others are totally dependant on groups"?
Or as in "If you want to CC, you NEED 1 XY in your group. Every Group needs the best healer AB"?

View PostMethal11, on 01 February 2013 - 01:57 PM, said:

Whats the point of leveling different classes if they all do the same crap?

They do it in different ways. Some ranged, some melee, some mixed, some with pets, some with turrets, some with ground based AoE, some with defense, some with dodges... ... ...

View PostMethal11, on 01 February 2013 - 01:57 PM, said:

Bring GW2 into the light.

While I like what they have done with the game not requiring a specific, and "set in stone" holy trinity of grouping, (tank and healer or no group)

Sooo... every class should be able to solo? You know... that REQUIRES that every class can do approx. the same DPS, because otherwise the big DPS classes would be VASTLY better at soloing than others (i.e. Priests in Vanilla WoW? Talk about sub-par damage, leveling 50% slower than Mr. Thief/Warrior/Hunter/Mage/we)

View PostMethal11, on 01 February 2013 - 01:57 PM, said:

Guardian is a tank right? lolz no. In PvP tanks are useless. No tanks in this game.

Necro's fear right? LOLZ no fear is OP in PvP so its limited to like 1/4th of a second. Not even enough time for you to even realize you've been feared.

Sooo... do you want the trinity or don't you want it? o_O When you have one class that is the best tank, and you design Dungeons to require one, then you automatically produce the need of taking this tank-class into the Dungeon. Or you design the Dungeon to not require one, but that just makes the Dungeon laughably easy WHEN you have one, so in effect->You once again need one to effectively do that dungeon.
Or you enable everyone and noone to tank->GW2.

View PostMethal11, on 01 February 2013 - 01:57 PM, said:

whats wrong with an elementalist getting a long cooldown nuke that does 20k dmg?

That maybe 5 Ele's grouped up one-hit every mob, even in Dungeons? That those Eles could farm vastly faster than any other class, making them mandatory in order to farm well?

You basically have two fair options IMHO (and thats my personal opinion):
1) You take the GW2 road, everyone can do the same damage, withstand the same attacks, travel the same speed, classes just do it in different ways and numbers differ only because of different player skill and because perfect balance in every situation can never be achieved.
2) You go the hardcore-group mode, meaning: Healers can ONLY heal, DDs dish out max DPS BY FAR, and Tanks are the ONLY class that can withstand more than three consecutive hits of ANY mob, but hit like a wet noodle, CC-Class hits weak as well and can only CC.
Having the effect: Noone can solo AT ALL, you ALWAYS need AT LEAST a Healer, DD and Tank grouped up, and whenever you want to kill something more than 1 grub every 10 Minutes, you also ALWAYS need a CC class.
Spice that up by doing multiple classes of each, HoT-Healer, Direct Healer, DoT-Class, direct DD Class, High-Armor Class vs. High-Dodge-Rate Class and different CC ways.

You can't let one class solo mobs, but not another, you can't let one class solo FASTER than another. You can't let all classes solo well, but one class is also mandatory in Dungeons while others aren't. You can't let all classes solo at the same speed, but one is much more sturdy than others.

Do you complain about lacking diversification, or the lack of the trinity? Can't have both...

#20 Arngrim Einheri

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 05:08 PM

GW1 was built around PvP. GW2 is mainly built around PvE imo.

#21 Darkobra

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 06:02 PM

View PostMethal11, on 01 February 2013 - 01:57 PM, said:

If you say that it would make the game "unbalanced" in PvE you'd be wrong. Why? because if the monster catches the Ele he gets SQUISHED. Think cloth armor is going to stop a steel sword? Not a bit, so it BALANCES the game to have low defense toons do high dmg.

This alone made me realise you not only have no IDEA how to play an elementalist, you've no idea what game balance is.

Yours truly, an actual PvE mage since before you could afford a PC.

#22 Red Sonya

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 01:47 AM

View PostMethal11, on 01 February 2013 - 01:57 PM, said:

First of all I've played almost every major mmo released since Ultima.

I would rank them in the following order of favorites:

EQ1,
UO,
EQ2,
Vanilla WoW
GW2,
GW1,
DAoC,
LotR,
SWTOR,
Runescape,
ShadowBane.
Final Fantasy XI

But to be honest I'd rank everything under GW2 in the same category.

One thing i've always liked is ranks of difficulty. What I mean about that is having multiple tiers of mobs. Some that are easily killed, some that are unkillable. I think there should always be at least one dragon, or giant, or whatever that can not be killed. Now some may question the point of this. That point would be to remind the children that no mater how much time you throw away, your champ is NEVER going to be as developed as a 5,000 year old monster. Maybe in 5k years you'll be as strong. But not in a few weeks of grinding.


Back to my main point.
One thing that EQ did very well, was diversify that classes. No other MMO has done that as well as they did.

Then along game PVP.

Now all the MMOs being released are all balanced around PvP. Making every class equal in all regards.

Nothing screams BORING! as loud as that.

WoW started this garbage. The crying babies from PvP would slop over onto the forums and infect the game with their stupid, game dumbing, tantrums about how they couldn't kill x class, or that x ability was "op" or "unfair"

So what did ALL mmos do?

Made every class the same. Everyone does everything the same. Everyone is the DPS class, everyone is the tank, everyone is the healer, everyone can solo everything completely fairly and equally.

This kind of watered down boring boring boring dried up boringness is what makes MMOs grind fests of bordom.

Whats the point of leveling different classes if they all do the same crap?

Think about it this way. In EQ there was a class called Necro. A necro could snare a target (make its run speed really really slow) and fear it for close to 20 seconds. sick its pet, and put down some dots. If the fear broke early, the mob usually had the ability to kill both the pet and the necro. Gave you some "edge of the seat" aspect to fear kiting, as it was called.

If you were to put the above ability in PvP the crying would be loud enough to wake the dead.
So what did games do?
Fears got completely destroyed, and removed from the MMO world. (REAL FEARs not this "you dun been spooked just a hair" that guild wars 2 has.

another example.

Mages in WoW used to have an ability to go invisible, whilie invis they could move around and begin casting. As soon as they got a monsters attention invis would break. A PERFECT way to start a fight, and an even better way to explore the world.

Bring pvp babies into it, and the nerf bat started swinging. Infact it hit so hard the ability was completely removed from the game. And despite what the cry baby pvpers say, was never put back into the game.

Bring GW2 into the light.

While I like what they have done with the game not requiring a specific, and "set in stone" holy trinity of grouping, (tank and healer or no group)

in gw2 PvP is what decides who can do what, and which abilities each class gets.

Guardian is a tank right? lolz no. In PvP tanks are useless. No tanks in this game.

Necro's fear right? LOLZ no fear is OP in PvP so its limited to like 1/4th of a second. Not even enough time for you to even realize you've been feared.

I would love to see some amazing, and unique abilities introduced to each class, that ARE NOT BALANCED FOR PVP! (just nerf them when they are  used in pvp)

whats wrong with an elementalist getting a long cooldown nuke that does 20k dmg?

OH thats RIGHT Pfuking V stupidP The manipulative crybaby bastard child of MMOs.

"WAHHH! HE KEERED MAH IN WUN NUK!!! WQAAHHHH!HH!!!!"

If you say that it would make the game "unbalanced" in PvE you'd be wrong. Why? because if the monster catches the Ele he gets SQUISHED. Think cloth armor is going to stop a steel sword? Not a bit, so it BALANCES the game to have low defense toons do high dmg.

but is it like that? Nope. why? P crybaby V boring P.

Now a plate wearing warrior does the same amount of dmg as a cloth wearing elementalist.

The only difference between the classes in GW2 is the pretty armors, and the spell effects. But under the hood, everything is the same.

Thanks PvPers, you've ruined MMOs. Hope youre happy with yourselves.

Loved your post and you are soooooooooo right. If only EQ1 had moving around combat instead of camping I'd go back to it in a heartbeat alas that is what eventually drove me away was all that sitting and medding and gaining hp's back.

But, you hit the nail on the head because today's MMO's are about $$ and the money comes from the whining brats who don't want to take time to learn the games or be of any skill. I once again blame Game Genie, Game Cheat codes and overall laziness of gamers these days from those eras. They were brought up and taught they could CHEAT their way through games and made them all EASY and FAST to play through. I know because I watched my nephew go through over 200 games in a short amount of time using game genie and cheat codes. My brother would just keep buying him more and more and he'd go through them in a day or two. Stupid.

If you brought back a real quality MMO with all the grind and time consuming efforts of an EQ1 3/4ths of these populations would quit or just wouldn't buy it. You recall EQ1 never got more than 500 full time subscribers for a long time and have less than 250,000 now. Though they sold over a million an a half copies. Shows you how many left because it was too HARD for them and they didn't like the grind. Then WOW happened and the world of MMO's changed forever. The only thing changing nowadays is the Free to Play aspect with buy me stuff from the game stores.

MMO's have been ruined but it's not really the gamers fault. It's these parents who let their children cheat and use Game Genie to just keep them out of their hair. Cheat all you want just leave us alone....thanks. ;)

#23 Firetruck

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 03:51 AM

I'm quite certain PvP balance is low-priority for Blizzard. Rather, the homogenization of classes came from people complaining about class balance in PvE. Certain classes weren't as efficient as others in their roles, and players weren't getting taken on raids because they were playing one of the less efficient classes.

#24 Soki

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 04:05 AM

So wait..
Based on your understanding of how balance and class changes work, you say PvP players' concerns about the game they enjoy are stupid?

The funny thing is that, in a lot of games, PvP changes are made because of PvE changes as well - that's how WoW does it, anyway.
One class had too much mobility. It was scaled back in that department. Yes, it made PvE encounters more difficult if you had that class kiting things - but it was OP in PvE too.
Sometimes, damage changes happen due to PvP - and that sucks - but if they made changes to one side of the game, which would negatively impact the other, those changes should only affect the intended side. WoW refuses to do this for some reason.

Overall, I think OP phrased the whole situation poorly, due to their disregard for the PvP community - and limited understanding on the subject of how devs make changes to the game based on both PvE and PvP issues.

#25 moomooo1

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 04:26 AM

Honestly your whole post just screams that you went into PvP with your limited understanding for gaming in general(you think bunker tanks aren't valuable in a conquest mode type where point denial is a BIG part of it) and just got smashed. I'm serious. If you were to talk about crybabies in PvP, it'd be those shitty games which put a DR on CC, that irks the hell out of me, but the fact that 2-3 players can chain CC someone to death if they're not running stability, that's awesome fun when playing with friends.

And give ele's a huge burst cos "the mob would kill them if they reached the ele". You know the ele is one of the slipperiest classes in this game? If you can't figure out how the classes in GW2 differ based on their mechanics/playstyle, perhaps you are better off playing a singleplayer game where you can go google the most OP build and wreckface against bots?

What you've described with 20s of fear CC etc. are skill-less gimmicks to deal with content. GW2 ships with dodgeroll for a reason. If you were to go and say dodgerolls are NOT skilled enough(being a complete evade regardless of actually moving out of damage) than you'd have a point.

Honestly, you call PvP crybabies, but all I read are the sweet tears of a PvE fanatic who isn't adept enough to excel at PvP.

PS. I don't know much about vanilla WoW so I won't go and try and dispute those points.

#26 Corsair

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 08:15 AM

The only issue here is bad game design and trying to design for both PvE and PvP in the same breath. There is nothing wrong with classes that can do things others can't, PvE or PvP. Both don't sit well together, as they have entirely different settings that they sit in and work around. GW did this relatively well with it's PvE/PvP skill split, but also didn't have the best PvE due to being designed around the PvP system.

And I have another issue all together. The ability to solo is important. Pure classes, for that very reason, are annoying and terrible to play in a PvE game. THAT is the largest source of class homogenization in PvE games. Not cries of PvP players. But when your healer outside of group content is unable to move at a decent pace isn't good. When your CC class isn't able to continue due to nil damage output it's terrible.

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#27 FoxBat

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 08:57 AM

GW2 has nearly no roles for reasons completely unrelated to pvp, which have come out in many interviews leading up to the game's release:

- Open world is meant to be soloable w/out AI help, so every class has to do everything needed to some level
- Assembling groups for most dungeons is meant to be fast, the whole "play rather than getting ready to play"
- They don't want friends regrouping or releveling based on classes, doing dungeons with 5 warriors should be fine

Believe me PvP isn't any deeper for lessening team roles. Quite the opposite.

Edited by FoxBat, 02 February 2013 - 09:08 AM.


#28 Perm Shadow Form

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 09:33 AM

GW2 is not a game built around PvP,

#29 beadnbutter32

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 12:31 PM

The fanboys and girls here, along with the paid sockpuppets, always get riled up if you criticize their baby.

I say amen brother to the OP's premise that basing a PVE MMO on instanced PVP is pure BS.

As game publishers rush to monetize every little aspect of MMO's thanks to microtransactions, they tend to dumb down what was once rich and diverse.

It results in sad situations like we have in GW2 where many combat skills which were obviously much stronger when first designed but were nerfed to keep it possible for the squishyest caster to go toe to toe with the tankyest melee character. The end result is that many of the skills are a waste of keyboard space or so worthless that although they are broken, neither players or Anet care enough to want them fixed.

Despite all of Anet's efforts to 'balance' all the classes and kill the trinity, GW2 has a new trinity: warriors, guardians, and Mesmers.

They are the goto classes for dungeon runs,  always welcome, and often preferred.  You simply don't see things like "LFM COF, esp rangers."

Sure you can PUG dungeons with any mish-mash of classes, but if you have bought into the grind Anet requires to get any significant reward from dungeons, then you will min-max things and want to bring the new trinity to speed things up.

PVP is already instanced away completely from PVE in GW2, why not separate them entirely and un-bundle the class balances?  The answer is surely to keep development costs as low as possible.  

Although I agree with the sentiment, sadly Anet and most other current MMOs will not change this situation.  Breaking PVE free of PVP constraints is going to have to be left to a new MMO that is truly revolutionary.

Edited by beadnbutter32, 02 February 2013 - 12:35 PM.


#30 Specialz

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 07:42 PM

View PostLunacy Polish, on 01 February 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

This is hilarious.  

First a preface.  PvE in any MMO except maybe Tera (speculating) or a FPSMMO possibly is like a Nintendo game.  It is a matter of rote practice memorization and consistency.   There is nothing wrong with playing MMO PvE if you like it.  In fact some of my favorite games are all PvE.  GW2 in particular has done a good job of ensuring dungeon or Fractal running is nothing like PvP of either kind.


Maybe you shouldn't speculate about a game YOU haven't actually played before speaking. You can say whatever you want about nintendo but they actually make games that can be hard and NOT tedious.

Now TERA is not a difficult game, I used to play the Korean version and even before they nerfed it wasn't hard JUST tedious (too much Hp).




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