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Well, the reason they got rid of the trinity is now obselete.


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#31 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 06:02 PM

View PostBloodtau, on 02 February 2013 - 05:30 PM, said:

True true. Their whole "we get rid of trinity to make the game better!" was just an empty promise to be fair. This game would be better WITH it imo

I think that applying trinity rules (or better yet, front-, mid- and backline GW1 rules) would result in a MUCH more interesting game, yet at the same time, due to A.Net's insanely poor balancing skills, it would also result in an even worse state of balance.
So bringing back "the trinity" would probably just result in a different kind of a broken game instead of actually good game.

Although, if they'd give us heroes, trinity-like broken game would absolutely be preferred.

Edited by Protoss, 02 February 2013 - 06:38 PM.


#32 Bloodtau

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 06:03 PM

View PostLordkrall, on 02 February 2013 - 06:02 PM, said:

Yeah, good luck trying to complete the Watcher in Lord of the Rings Online without a healer, or the Twins in Barad Guldur without tanks.

Did you ever play GW1?

#33 Lordkrall

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 06:06 PM

View PostBloodtau, on 02 February 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

Did you ever play GW1?

Since release :) Good luck finish any of the harder missions or areas without healers in there :)

#34 Bloodtau

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 06:09 PM

View PostLordkrall, on 02 February 2013 - 06:06 PM, said:

Since release :) Good luck finish any of the harder missions or areas without healers in there :)

heroes. Means the trinity is there, but you could fill slots easier.

Edited by Bloodtau, 02 February 2013 - 06:10 PM.


#35 I'm Squirrel

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 06:12 PM

Yeah, it's been obsolete since the beginning. Look at all these newbies and "hardcore" players asking for and recommending builds and saying theirs is the best for dungeons, pvp, etc. Way to make the game much worse for everyone. Now there's cookie cutter builds everywhere. Hooray!

Edited by I'm Squirrel, 02 February 2013 - 06:14 PM.


#36 Lordkrall

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 06:13 PM

View PostBloodtau, on 02 February 2013 - 06:09 PM, said:

heroes. Means the trinity is there, but you could fill slots easier.

I am sure GW2 would work really well with everyone running around with 5 NPCs with them at all times.
Also keep in mind that this was still a rather big problem until they added the ability to use 7 heroes instead of just 3.

Why force the trinity on the players just because it could be helped by a mechanic that is not in the game?

#37 Daesu

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 06:16 PM

View PostLordkrall, on 02 February 2013 - 06:02 PM, said:



Yeah, good luck trying to complete the Watcher in Lord of the Rings Online without a healer, or the Twins in Barad Guldur without tanks.

You are missing the point.  One specific class doesn't make a trinity.  A trinity is not a must but a want.  It has always been this way.  We have gone a full circle replacing the old trinity with another trinity.

Simply granting every profession a healing skill doesn't auto-magically solve the problem without understanding why the trinity existed in the first place.  That was ArenaNet's first mistake when dealing with this problem.  Since they did not understand this, they didn't understand that differences in the professions naturally breeds roles.  In fact, just having characters in specific locations in a battle breeds roles.

The professions are still different, so roles are still naturally "assigned" in this game, especially during combat.

Edited by Daesu, 02 February 2013 - 06:25 PM.


#38 Lordkrall

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 06:19 PM

View PostDaesu, on 02 February 2013 - 06:16 PM, said:

You are missing the point.  One specific class doesn't make a trinity.  A trinity is not a must but a want.  It has always been this way.

We have gone a full circle replacing the old trinity with another trinity.

No, the trinity is based on a NEED of a specific type of class in order to complete content. There is no such thing in GW2. Every type of class can complete every type of content.

#39 Daesu

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 06:30 PM

View PostLordkrall, on 02 February 2013 - 06:19 PM, said:



No, the trinity is based on a NEED of a specific type of class in order to complete content. There is no such thing in GW2. Every type of class can complete every type of content.

Then we all would have called it the SINGULARITY instead of the TRINITY don't you think?  If it is ONE specific class that is needed, it is not a needed trinity.

What we are talking about on this thread is the trinity itself, not one specific class.

In case you do not know, the word TRINITY implies THREE.

Edited by Daesu, 02 February 2013 - 06:33 PM.


#40 Lordkrall

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 06:32 PM

View PostDaesu, on 02 February 2013 - 06:30 PM, said:

Then you should have called it the SINGULARITY instead of a TRINITY don't you think?  If it is ONE specific class that is needed, it is not a needed trinity.

What we are talking about on this thread is the trinity itself, not one specific class.

Okay, let me rephrase that so that you understand:
The Holy Trinity is based around the NEED of specific classes in order to do specific things. There is no such thing in GW2 seeing as ALL classes can do ALL content.

Better?

#41 Nabuko Darayon

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 06:33 PM

Try not to do serious pugging on weekends. A lot fo bad groups/players show up. During weekdays you can find normal groups that run that dungd aily

#42 Daesu

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 06:38 PM

View PostLordkrall, on 02 February 2013 - 06:32 PM, said:



Okay, let me rephrase that so that you understand:
The Holy Trinity is based around the NEED of specific classes in order to do specific things. There is no such thing in GW2 seeing as ALL classes can do ALL content.

Better?

Then the trinity is NOT a must!  I can replace the elementalist with another class and still get through the content back then.

Since when has all 3 classes been a must, to get through content?  And the same thing is happening in GW2 now, just with a new trinity.

Edited by Daesu, 02 February 2013 - 06:41 PM.


#43 Lordkrall

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 06:39 PM

View PostDaesu, on 02 February 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

Then the trinity is not needed!  I can replace the elementalist with another class and still get through the content back then.

Exactly, the trinity is not needed, and therefore this tread is silly.
The trinity does not exist in GW2.

#44 Daesu

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 06:45 PM

View PostLordkrall, on 02 February 2013 - 06:39 PM, said:

Exactly, the trinity is not needed, and therefore this tread is silly.
The trinity does not exist in GW2.

No GW2 does have a new trinity with warrior, guardian, and mesmer.  Like the old trinity, they are not needed to go through content but some people still want them for efficiency.

#45 Lordkrall

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 06:51 PM

View PostDaesu, on 02 February 2013 - 06:45 PM, said:

No GW2 does have a new trinity with warrior, guardian, and mesmer.  Like the old trinity, they are not needed to go through content but some people still want them for efficiency.

Please show me how the classic trinity allowed people to completely ignore it and still do the content. I have yet to see a single video with a group doing the Twins in Barad Guldur without healers, tanks and high amount of DPS.

A trinity is not based on class, it is based on ability to does certain things. A elementalist can do the same things as a warrior, but in different ways, same with ranger or whatever.

A trinity is based around certain classes being NEEDED to do certain content, this does not, in any way or form, exist in GW2 by design. There are however some silly elitists that want to force people into a made up trinity that does not exist by design.

#46 Afya

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 06:56 PM

With trinity, heavy armor profession is compensated with low dmg and light armor can run glass canon or healer. In gw2, the one having most armor also has the most dmg and most support. SRSLY!?!?

#47 Lordkrall

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 06:57 PM

View PostAfya, on 02 February 2013 - 06:56 PM, said:

With trinity, heavy armor profession is compensated with low dmg and light armor can run glass canon or healer. In gw2, the one having most armor also has the most dmg and most support. SRSLY!?!?

I assume you are talking about Guardian?

Keep in mind that Guardian has one of the lowest base-healths (on par with Thief and Elementalist.)

#48 AlasteirNovae

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 06:58 PM

View PostLordkrall, on 02 February 2013 - 06:51 PM, said:

Please show me how the classic trinity allowed people to completely ignore it and still do the content. I have yet to see a single video with a group doing the Twins in Barad Guldur without healers, tanks and high amount of DPS.

A trinity is not based on class, it is based on ability to does certain things. A elementalist can do the same things as a warrior, but in different ways, same with ranger or whatever.

A trinity is based around certain classes being NEEDED to do certain content, this does not, in any way or form, exist in GW2 by design. There are however some silly elitists that want to force people into a made up trinity that does not exist by design.

Wasn't it also based on dedicated roles and not classes? Isn't this why there isn't any class that can dedicate solely to healing, and a group have that one person do all the healing? And dedicate one player to tank and hold aggro on all mobs indefinitely till they are dead (which isn't possible in gw2)?

#49 Daesu

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 07:04 PM

View PostLordkrall, on 02 February 2013 - 06:51 PM, said:

A trinity is based around certain classes being NEEDED to do certain content, this does not, in any way or form, exist in GW2 by design. There are however some silly elitists that want to force people into a made up trinity that does not exist by design.

No the trinity has always been based on 3 specific classes to clear content efficiently.  They have never been a necessity to clear content.

In GW1, other classes can be made into a tanker too but not as efficient as a warrior.  The same problem exists with GW2.  Guardians are still better at mass healing and protection than other classes.

Edited by Daesu, 02 February 2013 - 07:08 PM.


#50 Afya

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 07:06 PM

View PostLordkrall, on 02 February 2013 - 06:57 PM, said:

I assume you are talking about Guardian?

Keep in mind that Guardian has one of the lowest base-healths (on par with Thief and Elementalist.)
both heavy armor class
war has most dmg.
guardian has most defense skills.

#51 Lordkrall

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 07:08 PM

View PostDaesu, on 02 February 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:

No the trinity has always been based on 3 specific classes to clear content efficiently.  They have never been a necessity to clear content.

In GW1, other classes can be made into a tanker too but not as efficient as a warrior.  The same problem exists with GW2.  Guardians are still better at mass healing and protection than other classes.

Alright then. Show me a video where a group without healers, tanks and dps manage to complete any of the raids on-level in Lord of the Rings Online, or the dungeons in GW1 for that matter.



View PostAfya, on 02 February 2013 - 07:06 PM, said:

both heavy armor class
war has most dmg.
guardian has most defense skills.

Warrior are quite weak in many cases, they have one omg-megadamage skill, but that is extremely easily dodged.

#52 JHCinSC

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 07:09 PM

View PostBloodtau, on 02 February 2013 - 06:09 PM, said:

heroes. Means the trinity is there, but you could fill slots easier.
  I'd love to have heroes that could join you to do dungeons.  Better yet would be mercenaries from the gem store.  I don't do dungeons generally because of the issues with finding and adventuring with a PuG.  Give me my mercenaries and it would save this game.  Allowing players to choose whatever skills they want instead of tying them to their weapon would also make some undesireable professions desireable again.  Allowing a third weapon swap would be an alternative as youcould access more skills rather than being locked into the 5 associated with your weapon.

#53 Sword Hammer Axe

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 07:19 PM

Dunno, the only place I've really had a problem was Arah, and even that I quickly convinced the other players that I was useful. Most people seem to realize that everyone has something to add, though sometimes there's this particular skill that makes one profession highly sought after. For instance, I haven't had any problems getting any of my characters into AC path 3, even if that group doesn't have an elementalist and therefore no Ice Bow, though had one of us been an Elementalist I'd have been like "Yes!"

#54 Red_Falcon

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 07:57 PM

View PostBloodtau, on 02 February 2013 - 04:41 PM, said:

Can barely get into decent dungeon parties now as parties are only looking for certain classes (warriors, mesmers, some guardians) and won't accept anything else. Pretty disheartening really.

Funny, I got both a Guardian and a Warrior, yet my Thief can do what both those classes can and can disengage at the hit of a button.
Stealthrez turns the tides more than anything else in the game, and stealth in general is simply the best tools by far against the AI when used properly.
Let alone the massive damage denial of smoke screen and mass weakness that comes with it.

When you got this and a Protection spammer other classes can be anything really.

The class I see suffer the most is Ranger but I believe that is mostly because Ranger players are bad in general, not the class itself.

#55 Humfly

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 08:02 PM

Seems to me the problem is crap dungeon design.

Everything has a zillion hit points and there many instances of not killing fast enough meaning failure. That makes DPS king.

A melee stack of warriors and guardians buff each other offensively and defensively and aggro stays on the stack keeping it in range of their great single target and small area AOE damage.

Mob chasing 4 different ranged players can't be meleed or aoeed. On top of that the visual crap from 5 different classes attacking a boss makes the tells for the dodge or die attacks most of them have very difficult to see.

Oh, and don't forget the stupid condition stack limits of 1 or 25 which makes more that one of any type of condition damage dealer pretty much worthless.

#56 Eon Lilu

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 08:16 PM

It's anet's fault for having such terribly designed dungeons and not making them worth the time or effort so groups ask for whatever get's it done the quickest and has the least chance of failing.

Not saying it's right or wrong or whatever but anet should of designed dungeons alot better than they have.

Eye Of the North Dungeons were so much better than the crap we get in gw2.

GW2 Dungeons feels like 90% of the time your just meat grinding through mobs that never seem to end...

Also the classes are not balanced very well, if you get a bad elementalist or thief player in a pug, they will go down every 2 minutes....if you get a bad guardian or warrior player they will go down every 5 minutes instead...there is just less chance of having to carry bad guardians and warriors through and even if they are terrible....kick....get new player. ( personally I try to teach them and dont care if it takes longer unless im really short on time. )

The new systems they put in place on the last patch have made pugging 100 times worse...

Anet's reasons for this are "dungeon instances are not meant for pugging ( we dont want you pugging our dungeons is what they are saying in a politically correct way ) they are meant for organised groups of 5 players....etc etc..."

Edited by Eon Lilu, 02 February 2013 - 08:22 PM.


#57 Norn Osprey

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 08:19 PM

View PostJump_N_Move, on 02 February 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

What protoss said - aka (Game Dev Name Here, No One is Perfect) is still bad at balancing.
Fixed for you

#58 Kattar

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 08:24 PM

This thread is silly, especially as no concrete evidence is offered in the OP other than "this is what I think." Given that there are just as many people saying the opposite, and the history of the OP, I'm not inclined to think anything positive discussion could come out of this thread.

Forums are for discussion, not for spitting out your opinion (especially when most people think otherwise) and then telling everyone that they're wrong for thinking that. Facebook or your blog would be a better platform for that.

You are fooling yourself, user. Nothing here is what it seems. ANet is not the plucky hero, Guru is not an evil empire, and this is not the grand arena.



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