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How do you beat Thieves?


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#1 Bloodtau

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 06:51 PM

getting ownd by thieves all the time, with stealth it means they can down me before I can even get a good amount of illusions sorted out and start doing my damage.

#2 Lordkrall

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 06:55 PM

Learn to dodge.
I also suggest using Staff so that you can use the #2 skill that lets you jump a rather nice distance as soon as he comes out of stealth.

#3 Bloodtau

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 06:58 PM

View PostLordkrall, on 02 February 2013 - 06:55 PM, said:

Learn to dodge.
I also suggest using Staff so that you can use the #2 skill that lets you jump a rather nice distance as soon as he comes out of stealth.

Dodge someone in stealth that hits you before you even know he's there.
I'm human, not a robot.
I'm on about when you get hit from one that you don't know is there, the good thief players.
Not the ones who let you approach THEN stealth.

Edited by Bloodtau, 02 February 2013 - 06:59 PM.


#4 Lordkrall

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 07:01 PM

View PostBloodtau, on 02 February 2013 - 06:58 PM, said:

Dodge someone in stealth that hits you before you even know he's there.
I'm human, not a robot.
I'm on about when you get hit from one that you don't know is there, the good thief players.
Not the ones who let you approach THEN stealth.

They can't do big damage while in stealth. You have more than enough time to press a button before they kill you after they come out of stealth.

#5 Bloodtau

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 07:03 PM

View PostLordkrall, on 02 February 2013 - 07:01 PM, said:

They can't do big damage while in stealth. You have more than enough time to press a button before they kill you after they come out of stealth.

Yes, they can.
have you played a thief? Their number 5 skill gets STRONGER while in stealth. They can hit the skill in stealth, which with the games crappy way it handles stealth rendering, means they can hit you 1-2 times before it full shows their model.

Edited by Bloodtau, 02 February 2013 - 07:04 PM.


#6 Lordkrall

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 07:12 PM

View PostBloodtau, on 02 February 2013 - 07:03 PM, said:

Yes, they can.
have you played a thief? Their number 5 skill gets STRONGER while in stealth. They can hit the skill in stealth, which with the games crappy way it handles stealth rendering, means they can hit you 1-2 times before it full shows their model.

Hmm, must have missed that skill. I was quite sure that the thief left stealth when he attacked (unless it was a skill that gave him stealth when using it of course).

So, you mean you need to SEE a enemy before you react?
When I start to get damaged I do tend to dodge rather fast, even if I can't see the enemy attacking.

#7 Bloodtau

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 07:14 PM

View PostLordkrall, on 02 February 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

Hmm, must have missed that skill. I was quite sure that the thief left stealth when he attacked (unless it was a skill that gave him stealth when using it of course).

So, you mean you need to SEE a enemy before you react?
When I start to get damaged I do tend to dodge rather fast, even if I can't see the enemy attacking.

he leaves stealth when attacks, but can press the skill when in stealth. The damage hits you AS he leaves stealth.
As I said, you played a thief?

Also yes, ANYONE has to freaking see someone before they can react. You make it sound like you have augmented vision or some crap.

Edited by Bloodtau, 02 February 2013 - 07:15 PM.


#8 Lordkrall

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 07:15 PM

View PostBloodtau, on 02 February 2013 - 07:14 PM, said:

he leaves stealth when attacks, but can press the skill when in stealth. The damage hits you AS he leaves stealth.
As I said, you played a thief?
Nope, I have not. But I have met loads of thieves and they are quite easy to beat, seeing as they don't survive more than a few good hits.

#9 Bloodtau

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 07:22 PM

View PostLordkrall, on 02 February 2013 - 07:15 PM, said:

Nope, I have not. But I have met loads of thieves and they are quite easy to beat, seeing as they don't survive more than a few good hits.

post a video showing your lightning fast cat reflexes and foresight then please. I'd love to learn....

#10 Lordkrall

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 07:26 PM

View PostBloodtau, on 02 February 2013 - 07:22 PM, said:

post a video showing your lightning fast cat reflexes and foresight then please. I'd love to learn....

You seems to be under the impression that the thief can completely destroy you from full health within a second (which should be more than enough time for most people to react).
When the first attack hits, simply dodge. Unless of course you are built as a complete glass-cannon with zero vitality, but if that is the case you only have yourself to blame.

#11 Bloodtau

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 07:29 PM

View PostLordkrall, on 02 February 2013 - 07:26 PM, said:

You seems to be under the impression that the thief can completely destroy you from full health within a second (which should be more than enough time for most people to react).
When the first attack hits, simply dodge. Unless of course you are built as a complete glass-cannon with zero vitality, but if that is the case you only have yourself to blame.
you make it sound like dodging puts you a mile away from them. Dodge, one HS and they are next to you again.

#12 Lordkrall

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 07:31 PM

View PostBloodtau, on 02 February 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

you make it sound like dodging puts you a mile away from them. Dodge, one HS and they are next to you again.

You have two dodges + the #2 skill from the staff, and if you have MH-sword you can use the #3 skill to root them.
I would also suggest using the Mirror Image utility and go with the daze Shatter.

#13 Bloodtau

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 07:41 PM

Can I get some tips off people that know how both classes work please?

#14 Ojikes

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 07:49 PM

It's not that hard to see yourself lose health.. and a stealth thief has to be able to get to you via steal or other measures if he does damage he will leave stealth and get the revealed buff. If you are a glass cannon and get jumped, you should probably get some more defensive stats if you dont know how to handle the thief. (As a pure GC Shatter Mesmer you have around 15-16k HP, which wont help much.)

Most thieves use Mug (Steal), C&D + backstab. which means that he isnt in stealth when he starts hitting you.
I have some problems with the burst thieves to, and i am a p/d thief in wvw usually. But thats because i dont really bother to learn how to defeat them. I usually just try running away ;P

#15 Veltoss

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 09:04 PM

If you're talking about WvW, you don't. They aren't worth the time unless they're causing a lot of trouble. Even if you start to beat them they run away easily, so you might as well just flip them off and leave the fight.

#16 osicat

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 09:05 PM

Hi.

I made some videos purly focusing on thief,s Also added some thief fights in my other vids to show how I play versus them.

First a Build guild for Shatter Cat Hybrid.



Second is a "How To Fight Thiefs" Guide for the Shatter Cat Original spec



Enjoy mate and hope it help.

/Osicat

#17 Wifflebottom

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 09:12 PM

Use blurred frenzy when they begin their opener and you've successfully gimped the thief, assuming they haven't turned you to stone. But if they do use bass venom then use decoy before they can steal+backstab. But if your big issue is that you can't avoid their damage then it's as simple as using distortion or any number of your many escape skills. It really only takes one button to avoid their opener, and when they've wasted that then you can proceed to do with them as you please, unless they run away in which case you can't really do anything about that.

#18 Vashtirak

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 09:32 PM

View PostLordkrall, on 02 February 2013 - 07:01 PM, said:

They can't do big damage while in stealth. You have more than enough time to press a button before they kill you after they come out of stealth.

I like how every time someone asks you how to deal with Thief, you're pretty much "L2p"

Nice bro... nice.

#19 Bloodtau

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 09:51 PM

View PostVeltoss, on 02 February 2013 - 09:04 PM, said:

If you're talking about WvW, you don't. They aren't worth the time unless they're causing a lot of trouble. Even if you start to beat them they run away easily, so you might as well just flip them off and leave the fight.

well it's mostly roamer thieves. They seem to see mesmers as a threat and target us out first.
Every other class i'm fine with, it's those that get me most of the time =/

#20 Lordkrall

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 09:58 PM

View PostVashtirak, on 02 February 2013 - 09:32 PM, said:

I like how every time someone asks you how to deal with Thief, you're pretty much "L2p"

Nice bro... nice.

Well, in 95% of the cases L2P is actually the best answer.

#21 heatrr

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 03:57 AM

View PostLordkrall, on 02 February 2013 - 07:31 PM, said:

You have two dodges + the #2 skill from the staff, and if you have MH-sword you can use the #3 skill to root them.
I would also suggest using the Mirror Image utility and go with the daze Shatter.

You also have two invisible/stealth skills you can utilize when they - the thief - uses his.
You can either use them to re-stage and be ready to hit them when they show or use them to bail ass.

Edited by heatrr, 04 February 2013 - 03:57 AM.


#22 RandolfRa

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 12:54 PM

If you are a glass shatter spec, then playing against a decent glass thief is a game of chances. Either one can win, and not much you can do to ensure victory. Here are few tips:
  • If the thief stealths, wait a second or two, and use decoy. Then spam "get closest target" and attack immeditately from stealth once you have targeted the revealed thief (who is still invisible due to culling). If the thief does not seem to appear when your stealth is about to end, he has probably counter stealthed himself. In that case, you can either do as in 2. or counter stealth again.

  • If you see the thief at a fair distance, use decoy.
  • If the thief counter stealths, wait for your stealth to fade off. Then, almost immeditately, use sword #2 and spam "get closest target". Once targeted, dual images and mindwrack.
  • If the thief does not counter stealth get near him (blink if necessary), pop dual images, staff #2 and mind wrack.
The most problematic situation is when the thief pops shadow refuge right at the start. The stealth given by that skill is so long you can't very effectively counter stealth it. You also can't burn your defences as you don't know when the thief attacks. If you use focus or gs, try to push / pull the thief from his save house as that will reveal him. If you don't use them but aren't yet aggroed, quickly swap to focus from the inventory.

Note that steal and c&d land immeditately. You cannot avoid them without thinking pre-hand. If the thief lands those, he has already won half the game:
steal 6k + c&d 7k + firesigil 2k =15k, and the thief is now stealthed.

Edited by RandolfRa, 04 February 2013 - 01:32 PM.


#23 raspberry jam

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 03:32 PM

View PostBloodtau, on 02 February 2013 - 06:51 PM, said:

getting ownd by thieves all the time
Call the police.

#24 funkybudda

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 10:06 PM

View PostRandolfRa, on 04 February 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

If you are a glass shatter spec, then playing against a decent glass thief is a game of chances. Either one can win, and not much you can do to ensure victory. Here are few tips:
  • If the thief stealths, wait a second or two, and use decoy. Then spam "get closest target" and attack immeditately from stealth once you have targeted the revealed thief (who is still invisible due to culling). If the thief does not seem to appear when your stealth is about to end, he has probably counter stealthed himself. In that case, you can either do as in 2. or counter stealth again.

  • If you see the thief at a fair distance, use decoy.
  • If the thief counter stealths, wait for your stealth to fade off. Then, almost immeditately, use sword #2 and spam "get closest target". Once targeted, dual images and mindwrack.
  • If the thief does not counter stealth get near him (blink if necessary), pop dual images, staff #2 and mind wrack.
The most problematic situation is when the thief pops shadow refuge right at the start. The stealth given by that skill is so long you can't very effectively counter stealth it. You also can't burn your defences as you don't know when the thief attacks. If you use focus or gs, try to push / pull the thief from his save house as that will reveal him. If you don't use them but aren't yet aggroed, quickly swap to focus from the inventory.

Note that steal and c&d land immeditately. You cannot avoid them without thinking pre-hand. If the thief lands those, he has already won half the game:
steal 6k + c&d 7k + firesigil 2k =15k, and the thief is now stealthed.


this is probably the best reply and pretty accurate based on my own experience. I use GS / Staff as my weapon swap, so experiences compare to other folks. In addition to what RandolfRa said, you should check out this thread:

http://www.guildwars...es/page__st__30

learn to count and deal with the reveal debuff after thief coming out of stealth is very important.

But RandolfRa is right, if a thief lands the initial combo and you managed to survive, odds still against you. Be able to keep distance using blink or any other method is important.

#25 PheBelladona

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 12:42 PM

listen to randolf, it will give you the best chances. counter stealthing, counting to 2 and using blurred frenzy or dodging, throwing down chaos storm on yourself and chaos armour when you see them stealth. but all these counters require you to know they are coming and seeing them stealth if they start and you havent prepared for the assault you will die... or at least be devastated.

#26 Minion

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 07:41 AM

Chaos armour will pretty much stomp the thief for you. Null Field->Illusionary Leap->distortion chopppy then start pissing about with your clones. However, using the staff version will make you weak. Better off getting it from a combo field. And if you have Illusionary Persona, you don't even need any clones up and you can get 2x confusion out immediately; with chaos armour, you're going to blind them 33% of the time and confuse stack them another 33% of the time.

Edited by Minion, 10 February 2013 - 07:45 AM.


#27 Vikky

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 05:46 AM

Beating a thief depends entirely on situation + the thiefs setup. A good crit BS thief WILL get u stone and most likely get off the backstab. Why am i sure? Because a smart BS thief uses Haste. In these times, people have gotten good at reacting to thief. Haste (used well) brings that probability closer to zero. But it doesnt mean u will die. If u are a shatter build u might though. There was this shatter mesmer who had a vendetta against me after i got him initially, but sadly, out of ten times i won 9, simply because i jumped him in different ways (and properly), one standard BS combo finished him every time. But I digress.

On a condition P/D build, it once again varies a lot. If the thief can dodge your combos, you will not win. When i use this build, I take my time CnD'ing whatever clones u bring out, and i remove conditions and regen health in stealth, so I am very comfortable staying in stealth for a long time without sneak attacking. Plus, I use the heal signet that gives health every time i hit, so that acts as another small buffer against your damage. I am careful in not attacking when chaos armor is up.

My suggestion to you is > Stop using the same pattern of combat, it is too predictable. The typical illusionary leap root and shatter combo is quite easy to dodge. I have shadowstep and LDB to evade. Plus, one of that combo is not enough to bring tougher thief builds down. Mix it up, and be careful. As a mesmer, you actually can win quite easily against thieves given the skills at your disposal.

Last note, be very careful of thieves running Sword Dagger. The good ones are REALLY good.

#28 cruzydub

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 05:47 AM

I cant see how thiefes can be a problem as memser. You really have enough against thiefes. Like said before: Staff #2, blink, decoy, invis, sword #2, sword #3, block if sw/sw, stun if sw/p, unvuln (shatter #4), daze (shatter #3) + a budload of dmg while doing so.
I also would say l2p. not in an bad manner. but remember all your skills that help you and duel thiefs all the time then you will beat them sometime, quite sure

#29 Trei

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 09:10 AM

Go to the thief forums and read up on all the tips and tricks they boast about in the threads asking how to deal with mesmers.

#30 Rosen Von Seraphil

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 09:24 AM

This entire thread was begun in Feb, and is nothing more than abhorent for mesmers in the first place. For no other reason than age, I think a new thread over the same topic would be a better idea.

This thread became nothing more than two children arguing over how the other's point-of-view was wrong, also.

Please don't continue a destructive thread.




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