162 replies to this topic

[heatrr]

Coren, on 14 February 2013 - 01:27 PM, said:

I know, I'm just saying why it's.a.delicate subject. Personally I don't care if.it's.in the store.or not.

When I got my master's.degree in engineering I felt I.deserved the praise I got, unlike the ones who cheated on their exams. I don't care that they got their degree too, I felt proud, that was enough.

You one of those people who live in a gray world (a middle of the fence/road person who is afraid to take a stand one way or the other) when in truth, the world is black and white, huh?

Accordingly, it should matter to you that people cheated to get their engineering degrees given those same people dilute your profession, and to boot, may cost the lives of innocent people due to their negligence - all stemming back to their having cheated to get their engineering degrees when, by all rights, they should not have received those degrees nor been in the engineering field in the first place.

Edited by heatrr, 14 February 2013 - 01:49 PM.

[astromarmot]

heatrr, on 14 February 2013 - 01:48 PM, said:

You one of those people who live in a gray world (a middle of the fence/road person who is afraid to take a stand one way or the other) when in truth, the world is black and white, huh?

Accordingly, it should matter to you that people cheated to get their engineering degrees given those same people dilute your profession, and to boot, may cost the lives of innocent people due to their negligence - all stemming back to their having cheated to get their engineering degrees when, by all rights, they should not have received those degrees nor been in the engineering field in the first place.

Sure, if you buy into the myth that the sheepskin is actually a reflection of education(Edit for clarification:things such as expanded critical thinking and knowledge retention) and not just a gate to a different socioeconomic tier...

Edited by astromarmot, 14 February 2013 - 01:56 PM.

[Coren]

heatrr, on 14 February 2013 - 01:48 PM, said:

You one of those people who live in a gray world (a middle of the fence/road person who is afraid to take a stand one way or the other) when in truth, the world is black and white, huh?

Accordingly, it should matter to you that people cheated to get their engineering degrees given those same people dilute your profession, and to boot, may cost the lives of innocent people due to their negligence - all stemming back to their having cheated to get their engineering degrees when, by all rights, they should not have received those degrees nor been in the engineering field in the first place.

No I just don't care what others.think. I know what I'm worth and I prove it every day. It's not 100s of hours of playtime/study that define my skill. So laurels in store? Why not. Gives ANet money, makes more content. Do I care if someone bought his exotic gear? No I don't. Might as well feel bad about the chainsaw great sword skin because I can't have it in game normally.

[El Duderino]

escada_assassin, on 14 February 2013 - 12:58 PM, said:

Only that XP boosts won't get you ascended gear, while laurels will. So wtf are you talking about? And if we're on this subject, how about having legendary weapons in the gemstore? Or exotic armor? Or how about having the freakin' ascended rings / amulets / backpieces? Or how about having anything you get in the openworld available in the gemstore too? It's just a convenience.

Actually, they pretty much have all this stuff available through the gem store, because it is available in the trading post, and all you need to do is buy gems and convert them to gold and buy them from the trading post.

On average, 1 gold = $1 through the gem store. Currently it is about 1g to $0.81 according to gw2spidy.com.

Therefore, if you want a legenday that costs 1000g in the gemstore, you can buy it for between $810 to $1,000.

Similarly, you can get some, but not all, exotic armors in the same way.

The easiest way to make ascended items available to people who want to pay for them would not be to make laurels available in the gem store, but to make the items that you can purchase with laurels available in the trading post and not account or soul bound.

This way, you wouldn't need to go through the hassle of finding out how much laurels should be worth and giving them an artificial and perhaps incorrect cost. The open market would handle everything and people who buy gems for gold would pay whatever the market value is which would be a much more natural way to find a value for laurels and the items they can purchase.

Additionally, it would allow my original argument to stay in tact: everything should not be available to everyone to the point where people who dedicate themselves more than others have nothing to show for it.

The reason this works is because, if they market finds that these laurel items are worth a lot, then it would be cost prohibitive for many people to purchase them, just like legendaries are cost prohibitive to purchase simply through gem to gold transfers.

Conversely, if the market finds that laurel items aren't worth much, then their prestige (which is usually tied closely to value) also goes down, and "hardcore" players don't get upset by their ease of access.

Win-win.

Edited by El Duderino, 14 February 2013 - 04:54 PM.

[Zylo]

Telling hard working players that their hours of work is as valuable as someone else's real world money is an easy way to get people to quit the game. When someone was talking about the MMO mentality of gamers before, saying that there exists no competition outside of their own mind. Well, that can be said for anything, really. My competition for having the best by working hard exists because of who I am and how I think, sure, but that doesn't mean that my views (which seem to be the same views of many hard-working players) should be completely ignored in favor of a playerbase unwilling to commit to achievements, willing instead to pay for their shortcut to the finish line.

Edited by Zylo, 14 February 2013 - 04:28 PM.

[Luxius]

The laurels are there to promote gameplay.

Creating the ability to sell them would kind of defeat the purpose.

[astromarmot]

Zylo, on 14 February 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

...but that doesn't mean that my views (which seem to be the same views of many hard-working players) should be completely ignored in favor of a playerbase unwilling to commit to achievements, willing instead to pay for their shortcut to the finish line.

Not ignored, no, but neither necessarily given more consideration than the views of those shortcut players and all players in betwen when trying to develop the game to most successfully achieve the goals of those designing, funding, producing and developing the game...it really is an analog world, not binary choice of only two opinions...while some of us cannot stand the "Asian cash shop" type games, it's hard to argue with success(depending on one's measure)...

Now, about the competition part, why do you compete?  I've played a lot of FPS games over the years...there cheats and shortcuts do, IMO affect my game because, one way to measure and improve my own skill is by competing with others.  AI isn't evolved enough to provide a measure that meet my standard, so I play against others.  Where cheats or other such enter in(and honestly I didn't always mind them being used by others, since to a point my own skill my be better developed in the process) is that I cannot accurately credit performance as being another's skill or their augmentations, thus my foundation for competition is gone, and the game isn't "fun" or meeting my expectations...

Here, in GW2 supposedly everyone has the same opportunity,given enough time and focus, to get the same level/power rewards, there is no competition to be had...the reward system(other than the RNG component which is an entirely different discussion) is just a glorified chronometer.  While one may get there faster, or a little bit more efficiently, there's nothing all that grandiose about arriving...so in that respect, if they kept the cheese to being nothing at all beyond an aesthetic difference between purchased or "earned" perhaps that could satisfy both camps...but in the end, Anet is chasing the almighty sawbuck, so we get what we, the playerbase pay for...hence the timesink component that the system is in its current state

[escada_assassin]

El Duderino, on 14 February 2013 - 03:09 PM, said:

Actually, they pretty much have all this stuff available through the gem store, because it is available in the trading post, and all you need to do is buy gems and convert them to gold and buy them from the trading post.

On average, 1 gold = $1 through the gem store. Currently it is about 1g to $0.81 according to gw2spidy.com.

Therefore, if you want a legenday that costs 1000g in the gemstore, you can buy it for between $810 to $1,000.

Similarly, you can get some, but not all, exotic armors in the same way.

The easiest way to make ascended items available to people who want to pay for them would not be to make laurels available in the gem store, but to make the items that you can purchase with laurels available in the trading post and not account or soul bound.

This way, you wouldn't need to go through the hassle of finding out how much laurels should be worth and giving them an artificial and perhaps incorrect cost. The open market would handle everything and people who buy gems for gold would pay whatever the market value is which would be a much more natural way to find a value for laurels and the items they can purchase.

Additionally, it would allow my original argument to stay in tact: everything should not be available to everyone to the point where people who dedicate themselves more than others have nothing to show for it.

The reason this works is because, if they market finds that these laurel items are worth a lot, then it would be cost prohibitive for many people to purchase them, just like legendaries are cost prohibitive to purchase simply through gem to gold transfers.

Conversely, if the market finds that laurel items aren't worth much, then their prestige (which is usually tied closely to value) also goes down, and "hardcore" players don't get upset by their ease of access.

Win-win.

Ok. You seem to don't understand that in the process of crafting a legendary weapon you need certain things that can't be bought, things like 100% map exploration or things like badges of honor. And if we're on this subject, you can't buy any of those items, you can buy gems, trade gems for gold and then buy some of them. I was saying that those items should be available for purchase on the gemstore, not by buying gems and trade them for gold, but buying the actual items. As in being able to buy from the gemstore a Twilight (not trade real cash for gems and gems for gold and work on your exploration and getting badges), being able to buy a T3 armor set (not trade real cash for gems etc) etc. I like the actual system : you want it? "Work" for it. You don't like the "work" involved? Then you don't want it.

Edited by escada_assassin, 15 February 2013 - 08:56 AM.

[El Duderino]

escada_assassin, on 15 February 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

Ok. You seem to don't understand that in the process of crafting a legendary weapon you need certain things that can't be bought, things like 100% map exploration or things like badges of honor. And if we're on this subject, you can't buy any of those items, you can buy gems, trade gems for gold and then buy some of them. I was saying that those items should be available for purchase on the gemstore, not by buying gems and trade them for gold, but buying the actual items. As in being able to buy from the gemstore a Twilight (not trade real cash for gems and gems for gold and work on your exploration and getting badges), being able to buy a T3 armor set (not trade real cash for gems etc) etc. I like the actual system : you want it? "Work" for it. You don't like the "work" involved? Then you don't want it.

So you're saying that I can't buy the legendaries that are on sale in the trading post? Because I'm pretty sure I can.

Also, what's to say the person who wants to buy a legendary in the trading post didnt work for it? Eternal is like 2300 gold. Surely someone who makes 2300 gold to buy eternal worked for the gold regardless of whether they grinder for the specific components to craft the legendary. They probably just did it in a way more enjoyable. And, if it is tied to the market, then you are paying a natural and not artificial price.

So, what exactly is your point? I don't disagree that people shouldn't work for goals. In fact, that is my original argument. If you tie everything to the trading post it still ensures some time of time was spent in order to obtain an item, especially as prices increase.

Edited by El Duderino, 15 February 2013 - 12:56 PM.

[escada_assassin]

El Duderino, on 15 February 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

So you're saying that I can't buy the legendaries that are on sale in the trading post? Because I'm pretty sure I can.

I said gemstore, not trading post. As in buying it in the same way as you're buying XP Boosts. Do you buy those from the TP or the gemstore?

[astromarmot]

escada_assassin, on 15 February 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

I said gemstore, not trading post. As in buying it in the same way as you're buying XP Boosts. Do you buy those from the TP or the gemstore?

Buying gold with gems results in essentially the same thing as buying TP items in the gemstore...with an extra step of course

[two maces]

escada_assassin, on 15 February 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

I said gemstore, not trading post. As in buying it in the same way as you're buying XP Boosts. Do you buy those from the TP or the gemstore?

You buy gems from the gemstore, then you choose what to do with the gems. If you convert the gems into gold and buy stuff on the TP, it's the same as if you buy a boost on the gemstore.

[El Duderino]

El Duderino, on 14 February 2013 - 03:09 PM, said:

The easiest way to make ascended items available to people who want to pay for them would not be to make laurels available in the gem store, but to make the items that you can purchase with laurels available in the trading post and not account or soul bound.

escada_assassin, on 15 February 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

Ok. You seem to don't understand that in the process of crafting a legendary weapon you need certain things that can't be bought, things like 100% map exploration or things like badges of honor. And if we're on this subject, you can't buy any of those items, you can buy gems, trade gems for gold and then buy some of them. I was saying that those items should be available for purchase on the gemstore, not by buying gems and trade them for gold, but buying the actual items. As in being able to buy from the gemstore a Twilight (not trade real cash for gems and gems for gold and work on your exploration and getting badges), being able to buy a T3 armor set (not trade real cash for gems etc) etc. I like the actual system : you want it? "Work" for it. You don't like the "work" involved? Then you don't want it.

escada_assassin, on 15 February 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

I said gemstore, not trading post. As in buying it in the same way as you're buying XP Boosts. Do you buy those from the TP or the gemstore?

At what point was I ever talking about buying anything other than gems in the gem store?

I'm trying to be a much kinder and gentler forum participant, but in this instance, I do think you need to go back and read what I wrote, because I don't think you understood what I was saying.

I am 100% against selling laurels in the gem store. Why? Because it would create an artificial price for laurels that may or may not reflect the market should items purchased by laurels be available in the trading post.

If, however, you allow players to sell laurel items on the TP, then it solves all of the problems in this post - namely people being able to purchase laurel items without going through the hassle of getting laurels.

Please do not bash my ideas when you don't have a clue as to what I am talking about.

astromarmot, on 15 February 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

Buying gold with gems results in essentially the same thing as buying TP items in the gemstore...with an extra step of course

And it assures that the cost of the items reflects the market price and not an artificially determined price that may or may not reflect what the market is for items - which is why it is better to make laurels items available for sale in the TP rather than laurels available for sale in the gem store.