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Downed movement skills needs to be nerfed


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#1 Miteshu

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 05:34 PM

I should be able to down a Elementalist while he is in Vapor/mist form(Or whatever the down skill is).

So many times, I throw bolas at the Elementalist to keep it from running away but, by the time I get on their corpse their mist form stops me from pressing 'F' to finish them.

As for Thieves and Mesmer. I do not know if applying immobilize will stop them from delaying their death. If they don't, I also wish those get nerfed as well to the point where if you prevent their escape you get to kill finish them quickly making their downed skills useless.

Unlike other profession such as Guardian, Warrior, Ranger, Engineers, and Necromancers. All I need to do is apply stability/invulnerability/stealth/etc to finish them off without being interrupted. This should be the same for the other three profession which is requiring a special skill to make stomping smooth.

Edit: Because people can't read anything other than the word "nerf"

tl;dr: I should be allowed to stomp all professions if I bring skills to prevent their #2 down skill from happening. #2 down skill should not delay my stomping at all if I prevent it in the first place.

Edited by Miteshu, 07 February 2013 - 12:58 PM.


#2 mdapol

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 10:41 PM

I can't win through skill so please nerf my enemies so I can pwn them Anet!

#3 MrForz

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 01:47 AM

I've crushed my share of Elementalists and Thieves and saw them Mistforming/Shadowstepping back to safety. But my answer will remain no. Infact, I'd prefer more creative skills on certain classes and that's it.

#4 Miteshu

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:59 AM

View Postmdapol, on 06 February 2013 - 10:41 PM, said:

I can't win through skill so please nerf my enemies so I can pwn them Anet!
It is obvious that you didn't read the thread at all.

View PostMrForz, on 07 February 2013 - 01:47 AM, said:

I've crushed my share of Elementalists and Thieves and saw them Mistforming/Shadowstepping back to safety. But my answer will remain no. Infact, I'd prefer more creative skills on certain classes and that's it.
Read the OP.

It isn't about the ability to stomp a profession. It is about making stomping smooth. I always bring throw bolas, balanced stance and/or frenzy to make stomping very smooth. It is impossible to make stomping on thieves and ele smooth at all. Thus makes the downed state boring. You can stomp Guardians, warriors, etc smooth as long as you bring specific skills. It should be the same for Elementalist, thieves, and mesmers.

#5 Kurosov

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 12:01 PM

View PostMiteshu, on 07 February 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

It is obvious that you didn't read the thread at all.

Read the OP.

It isn't about the ability to stomp a profession. It is about making stomping smooth. I always bring throw bolas, balanced stance and/or frenzy to make stomping very smooth. It is impossible to make stomping on thieves and ele smooth at all. Thus makes the downed state boring. You can stomp Guardians, warriors, etc smooth as long as you bring specific skills. It should be the same for Elementalist, thieves, and mesmers.

someone doesn't agree with you, therefore they mustn't have read your post right?

Wrong. Some of us see no problem with the ele downed skills. Professions are balanced as a whole, down skills included. If anything the ones you listed to have no problem with could do with improvement.

#6 this a pointed

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 12:10 PM

Learn to play your class OP. You will get better at the game. You find out it is not that hard to kill them. You will laugh at people - like yourself - who are crying for nerfs because they are not "skilled" enough.

#7 Miteshu

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 12:16 PM

View PostKurosov, on 07 February 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

someone doesn't agree with you, therefore they mustn't have read your post right?

Wrong. Some of us see no problem with the ele downed skills. Professions are balanced as a whole, down skills included. If anything the ones you listed to have no problem with could do with improvement.
Balanced, nope.

Balanced for downed skills would be all #2 down skills for all professions can be prevented or all downed skills for all professions cannot prevented at all. No certain profession should be excluded. If the latter is used, Necromancer's fear, Ranger's daze, Warrior's hammerthrow, guardian's knockback, etc... should bypass stability and invulnerability in order to balance with Mesmer teleport, thieves shadowstep, ele invulnerability and movement or we can nerf the mesmer teleport/thieves shadow step, ele invulnerability by if they are inflicited with snares, their #2 downed skills get hindered. I prefer the former, where all profession's #2 downed skills can be prevented.

View Postthis a pointed, on 07 February 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

Learn to play your class OP. You will get better at the game. You find out it is not that hard to kill them. You will laugh at people - like yourself - who are crying for nerfs because they are not "skilled" enough.
There is no skill that can make downing elementalist/Thieves/mesmers smooth. There are skills to make downing warriors/guardian/etc smooth via stability.

#8 SnowmanRelic

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 12:27 PM

In my mind you were sobbing through writing this whole post.  Here's what I got, if I'm wrong please correct me.  "I can't *sob* kill those meanie *sob* elementalist and thieves, *sob* they can live past my button mashing *sob* so make them weak. Just because they're made of glass *sob* it means they should have a harder time surviving when I kill them *sob* because I don't want to get better *sob* I want them to be weaker."  
Okay so if I'm understanding this right, you need to stop whining, Warriors are meant to take damage meaning you can run into the mob and kill them, if you don't have the skill to take out a downed player then I suggest practice.  My mantra is there's no guarantee anything will change so learn to deal with it.

#9 PheBelladona

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 12:29 PM

there are two types of skill #2 - self preservation and interupt.

say on your team a mesmer has dropped and a warrior and on their team something else, the mesmer has burned its #2 and is abot to get stomped, the warrior can use his interupt to stop the stomp on the friendly. this gives your team the time to stomp the opponent and rally both of you.

the variety of down'd skills adds to teamplay and also forces you to treat downed professions differently - whether they are your friends or foes, prioritising resses and stomps.

Edited by PheBelladona, 07 February 2013 - 12:30 PM.


#10 Miteshu

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 12:37 PM

View PostPheBelladona, on 07 February 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

there are two types of skill #2 - self preservation and interupt.

say on your team a mesmer has dropped and a warrior and on their team something else, the mesmer has burned its #2 and is abot to get stomped, the warrior can use his interupt to stop the stomp on the friendly. this gives your team the time to stomp the opponent and rally both of you.

the variety of down'd skills adds to teamplay and also forces you to treat downed professions differently - whether they are your friends or foes, prioritising resses and stomps.
Wrong.

There are two types of #2 skills, movement and interrupt. Both can be self-preservation in a different way. If I bring skills to stop self-preservation in the first place, I should be allowed to stomp both types of #2 skills in the first place without being interrupted.

That situation is really niche and only works for teamplay in that exact moment only. Downed skills shouldn't be balanced around niche moments.

Kudos for actually reading the post.

Edited by Miteshu, 07 February 2013 - 12:45 PM.


#11 Thanatar

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 12:39 PM

or if the enemy team brings stability: fly useless warrior downed skill! do nothing! seriously, some of the downed state skills are beyond useless (i am looking at you, single target interupts....). give everyone an aoe interupt or a movement skill. at the moment, some classes can safely avoid the first stomp, others can't. that's what they call "balance"?

#12 PheBelladona

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 12:46 PM

in a team game you call being around other people "niche" - there is no reaching you.

#13 Miteshu

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 12:52 PM

View PostThanatar, on 07 February 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

or if the enemy team brings stability: fly useless warrior downed skill! do nothing! seriously, some of the downed state skills are beyond useless (i am looking at you, single target interupts....). give everyone an aoe interupt or a movement skill. at the moment, some classes can safely avoid the first stomp, others can't. that's what they call "balance"?
Yep, this post is all correct.

Give every profession's #2 downed skills a way to prevent a stomp no matter what or give ways to prevent all #2 from preventing stomping.

View PostPheBelladona, on 07 February 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

in a team game you call being around other people "niche" - there is no reaching you.
Should Engineers be nerfed even more because a video had Engineer's daze stopped an elementalist from casting a water field that a thief's shortbow could've used Clustershot to blast a huge healing burst?

Nope. That's a niche moment.

Edited by Miteshu, 07 February 2013 - 12:55 PM.


#14 OctavianCMB

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 01:09 PM

Balance does not mean every profession is the same.

If you have evidence that Warriors get stomped statistically more often than Elementalists, then you have valid support for an argument to augment the professions' downed states and/or contributing pre-downed attributes - at least if you want to argue "balance."

This argument, however, implies that a certain trump ability (snares) should be the ultimate trump - I have snared you, foe, and there is nothing you can do about it, now die. Unfortunately, teleports and mist-form are trumps to snares. The trump to these snare-trumping abilities? Follow your foe and stomp them or used a ranged weapon and deplete their health to defeat.

These options seem a more reasonable approach to the issue of your snare having some trumps than a "re-balance" of all abilities in favor of your preferred playstyle.

#15 Thanatar

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 01:18 PM

seriously, i am not mad, not a bit. i am okay with the actual situation, even if i think it is not balanced. as for "warriors getting stomped more often that eles": look at wvw (i know, balance doesnt revolve around wvw), where eles can savely get back to their team or even inside towers/keeps(!!!) if they overextend and get downed. what can (for example, just because i play one) warriors do? throw a hammer which:
1. affects only one target
2. is easily countered by stability/invisibility (since it isnt aoe)
3. does not prevent a stomp long enough to get up with revenge and run inside a tower / to your team.

so yes, if I get downed I get stomped MUCH more often than eles ^^

#16 Katsumi Kei

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 01:29 PM

View PostOctavianCMB, on 07 February 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

Balance does not mean every profession is the same.

If you have evidence that Warriors get stomped statistically more often than Elementalists, then you have valid support for an argument to augment the professions' downed states and/or contributing pre-downed attributes - at least if you want to argue "balance."

Saved me some writing. Thank you.

This is the logical way of working the second skill - thiefs, eles, mesmers - run away, warriors and guardians take the offensive, engineers and rangers trick. These are fair skills and there is no place for greef in the end they all prevent you from being killed the first time.

I do play Thief and shadowstepping away from stops wins me 2-3 seconds. I do it right, but sPVP players are so good that it is basicly delaying the inevitable. OP, why do you think ther is a downed state? It is a tricky state when you can win your "life" again, IMO this could have been pusheed further to be more complex and even further allow turning the tides. If the player who is downed is good enough, he should have the opportunity to get back on his feet.

When stoping a thief who shadowsteps away, you can cancel the stomp, roll in the direction of the thief and finish him. It's actually one roll's long distance. Also this skill has a huge reuse and can't be used twice in a normal fight. As i said, this is not an issue and there are far more desired changes by the community.

#17 this a pointed

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 01:29 PM

View PostMiteshu, on 07 February 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

There is no skill that can make downing elementalist/Thieves/mesmers smooth. There are skills to make downing warriors/guardian/etc smooth via stability.

I am not talking about certain abilitys in the game, I am talking about your skill. But your whining is a typical example of: "zomg got killed by X proffesion, that means X is overpowered pls nerf because I dont want to learn anything so i can counte rhim..........."

#18 Mekkakat

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 01:32 PM

A lot of rude folks in this one...

What's ironic is that a lot of you didn't read the OP's post, but I digress. I agree that class balance is not based on everyone having the same mechanics, but that they utilize the same thresholds of ratios. The Ele downed 2 is very annoying, and I totally understand the frustrations, but there are ways to deal with it in a team setting. If you find yourself extremely low on HP nearing the downing of an Ele, just back off after you force them to Vapor, then finish them off.

What he's saying is that Vapor Form has no skill to it's stomping avoidance other than to move. There are no mental games or tricks for either side of the fight to interrupt or defend.

*** I do not disagree that Vapor Form is annoying, but it does not need a nerf.

- I want that purple stuff.


#19 Exci

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 03:48 PM

Nothing to do here indeed.

#20 MrForz

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 04:05 PM

You know, just because someone complains here doesn't mean that it is in everyone's duty to charge in and flood the thread with L2Ps + Insults. The OP keeps a point. But I don't know if it's worth the trouble to call a nerf with what's currently going on, lots of people would be better off WITHOUT having a downed state at all.

Edited by MrForz, 07 February 2013 - 04:06 PM.


#21 Trei

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 04:22 PM

View PostMiteshu, on 07 February 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:

...Give every profession's #2 downed skills a way to prevent a stomp no matter what or give ways to prevent all #2 from preventing stomping....
Hey, why don't we give every profession's #2 downed skills a way to prevent a stomp no matter what...
AND
give ways to prevent all #2 from preventing stomping no matter what?

;)

#22 Herr_Gebrechen

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:52 AM

The only thing I would change is the finishing from thieves. There should be no killing while being invisible.

Edited by Herr_Gebrechen, 08 February 2013 - 12:53 AM.


#23 RandolfRa

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 01:07 PM

Vaporform is by far the most powerful downed move in the game. It has next to no counters. The thief one ( teleport) is also fairly useful, but it can be countered with teleport such as blink. The mesmer one is annoying as it both teleports and stealths. It is less reliable than the thief one though, and often your stomp hits regardless of this skill. This skill also needs a target, which means that if nobody is around and you stealth, the mesmer can't use it.

Quote

If you find yourself extremely low on HP nearing the downing of an Ele, just back off after you force them to Vapor, then finish them off.
Good luck doing that in 2v1. Any other profession except ele, you can at least try to invu stomp.

Edited by RandolfRa, 08 February 2013 - 01:12 PM.


#24 Skyro

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 08:31 AM

If you don't think Ele's downed state is the strongest in the game by far then you've never played high level tPvP. And considering the outcome of large team fights are as much about downed state management as anything then you start to see the problem. I'm not really sure what ANet's stance on downed state balance is as clearly even a monkey could see they weren't even close to being balanced at the start. It seems they were trying to keep the theme of low hp/armor classes = DPS corpse, and the higher HP classes = stomp, but I'm not sure ANet really grasps how much the whole downed state system affects the outcome of team fights.

All that said I don't think it needs to be nerfed all that much. Don't allow them to travel at full speed, or make the duration shorter or something. They simply can travel way too far a distance that killing them is soooooooooo much harder than any other class by far. I also have no idea why it should remove all conditions either.

#25 moomooo1

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 08:52 AM

In any high level play, Vapor form gives the ability to the relocate the player in any manner of place, be it into water, back into a gate, or towards friendlies. That's similar to the thief's skill, but the key difference is the thief skill is a blink, whereby it can get obstructed, and in some situations, there's simply no place he can blink that is out of stomp range. That is the key difference between these 2 spells. That and the thief is an instant teleport(ie. damage done on the thief isn't interupted if being shot down by range) where Vapor Form has a few seconds of complete invulnerability. That's what makes it too strong.

I can only see solutions being, make it you can take damage in vapor form but can't be snared, or moving it to the 3rd spell and giving them a different no.2 spell. Additionally you can reduce the time they have in vapor form, but I feel that the skill is conceptually broken, meaning trying to balance it will just swing widely to underpowered or overpowered.

#26 Davidjack

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:30 AM

I find there is a counter to thief and ele's down #2 skill. Immobilize for ele but it takes a bit of prediction and timing. If you hit an ele with an immobilize they cant move and relocate in vapor form but are able to prevent getting stomped or finished off from damage for a few seconds.

For thief as an ele lightning flash works wonders when they teleport away since it doesn't interrupt it. Only thing I can think of for stealth is damage which if they are glass cannons they are gonna go down quick anyways.

For mesmers I interrupt and cast it again. if timing is right they will go into hiding right after i start the stomp but by the end of it they are probably gonna be near me and out of stealth before the stomp finishes and if they are far away i will teleport to them before it finishes.

Edited by Davidjack, 12 February 2013 - 09:32 AM.


#27 Mitch

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:34 AM

It used to be the #3 spell, ele downed state was by far the worst then.

I think the main problem with vapor form is how hard it currently is to down an ele in the first place, then again reducing the duration might be enough of a fix.

#28 Elysen

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 02:15 PM

That's all they are, delaying death. All professions have one (to my knowledge), even the engineer's pull delays the death.

The Mesmer & Thief teleport skills are pretty bad. The Mesmer is random (and they're also the second copy to appear, the first is the clone) and the Thief one I believe has a short CD before it can be used.

I do agree with the Ele one. That's *ing ridiculous, especially in WvW where they can essentially suicide and then run back into the keep using it.

#29 Phigment

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 11:16 AM

View PostMiteshu, on 07 February 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

Balanced, nope.

Balanced for downed skills would be all #2 down skills for all professions can be prevented or all downed skills for all professions cannot prevented at all. No certain profession should be excluded. If the latter is used, Necromancer's fear, Ranger's daze, Warrior's hammerthrow, guardian's knockback, etc... should bypass stability and invulnerability in order to balance with Mesmer teleport, thieves shadowstep, ele invulnerability and movement or we can nerf the mesmer teleport/thieves shadow step, ele invulnerability by if they are inflicited with snares, their #2 downed skills get hindered. I prefer the former, where all profession's #2 downed skills can be prevented.

There is no skill that can make downing elementalist/Thieves/mesmers smooth. There are skills to make downing warriors/guardian/etc smooth via stability.

Thieves are actually easy (if they stealth they stay in place so just melee), If they teleport just use a teleport ability while doing your stomp....Wait? Not all classes get teleport do they? Well not all classes get stability either. There are counters in the game if you have them or not is another story




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