33 replies to this topic

[Alilei22]

Since this relates to both PvE and PvP I couldnt really post it twice in those forums so sticking it here.  While I love my Warrior and it it my main it feels like this game just favors ranged classes.  I know as a Warrior I have good ranged options in Longbow and Rifle but I rolled a Warrior to play melee so I use Hammer and Axe/Mace.  If I wanted a range class I would have made a clothie or an engineer or ranger

For PvE when I run up to mobs to start attacking them most of the time they will agro before I get to them and then they just run right through me.  So I have to turn around and chase them. They dont go very far t but after a while it starts to piss me off.  Humanoid mobs love doing this. They just run through me then stop and turn around.  I have never played a MMO where this happens.  In other games if you agro a mob he stops in your face.  Sure theres a few mobs designed to kite you a little like archers and casters but that doesnt bother me.  Its melee mobs running through me that does.

For PvP I feel like Im getting carpal tunnel trying to stick to people especially D/D eles, thieves, and rangers plus trying to stay on people dodging.  I played my warrior for 2 hours in sPvP last night and my fingers and wrist on my hand that controls my mouse was killing me to the point I had to ice it as I only move and turn by using my mouse.  Maybe I should just start keyboard turning or something.  Even if that makes me a worse player at least it wont hurt as much.

I also have some ranged classes I only leave at level 2 to mess around doing sPvP.  I have a Necro a Ranger and then a Enginner.  Playing those doesnt even bother me.  No pain at all. This isnt my first MMO and in fact its my 10th.  I have never had a problem in any game whether its PvE or PvP with pain and all I play is mostly melee classes.  I just cant figure out why it bothers me here.

[Al Shamari]

The combat system overall does favour "range" in harder combat situations unless you're well rounded and able to stick it with the enemy in their face. But, because of the active dodging system, being at a range allows you a better chance to dodge incoming attacks and stay away from some of the hard hitting AOE melee range attacks that bosses are so fond of.

[konsta_hoptrop]

Did you tried warrior? No problems at all 1-80 lvl in pve and i really dont know what are you talking about with these runing mobs. Only  a few enemies like Moas and bats run away when they are on low hp. DId you tried end game zones? 10-20 mobs run into you and u just AoE them to death in melee range. I play warrior with only 3 weapons GS , Axe/Axe and rifle. Most of the time i use GS and A/A in pve and i dont have that problem at all. IF you want armies of enemies that stay like statues until you kill them all , thats not your game. If you dont dodge and move you wont survive , especially in dungeons.

[Raagar Deathclaw]

One thing you may try is opening up your settings panel (f11) and on the bottom is an option that should make it easier, forget what it's called but the effect is that mobs shouldn't be able to run through you anymore

[ScorpioSpork]

After playing both Guardian (level 80) and Warrior (level 47) as mostly melee, I don't feel inclined to say GW2 favors ranged professions. Do you have high latency? I'm not sure what would be causing that issue with mobs running through you. I don't think I've ever had that. Fast Risen tend to adjust their position a lot, but that's probably because I'm constantly moving even in melee.

If you haven't already, you should definitely try mapping left and right strafe (normally "q" and "e") to your "a" and "d" keys. That will make you more mobile, and might help take the strain off of your wrist. I haven't played Warrior in PvP, but I don't have too hard of a time keeping up with my sword Guardian.

[Hephaestus_Ram]

I don't think ranged class' are favored at all.


In addition to warrior, I've got ele, necro, mesmer, and engineer. All are at lvl 80, and I
like playing them all. But, I really can't wait to get back on my warrior. I guess I'm just
a malee sort of guy.

I have encountered the problem you mention where an enemy and I run at each other and we
both overshoot, turn, attack, and overshoot each other again, etc. It's just something you
have to train yourself to inticipate. Once you do, you'll judge where to stop so you meet
head on.

You can always use skills like Eviscerate that will land you on the target even if it's moving.

You also have skills like Cyclone Axe, and Tremor to ether follow or knock down moving enemies.

All in all, my warrior does pretty well for himself when compared to my other class'.

[Jump_N_Move]

Ew turn/leave off melee assist.

The melee running through you is just bad AI pathing/targeting. Its initial path is to a place, you've already moved from, but its failed to notice, and won't notice until it reaches successful melee range to use its skill. Until it does, you can generally lead them around in circles forever as they won't attempt to use any other skills till the one that's queued is finally carried out. Though if you don't keep damage on them they will just deaggro by timeout.

But ranged is more forgiving because ranged dmg is weaker than melee, and easier to spot/avoid. Its not so much that it favors ranged, but there's a quicker learning curve to play at ranged. Well played melee, outshines ranged all day.

[Dirame]

You want to get better at dealing with Ranged? Get better gap closers. You can't complain about "Ranged" when your build has very few ways to get close to the target.

Edited by Dirame, 07 February 2013 - 12:04 AM.

[Lilly32]

Dirame, on 07 February 2013 - 12:03 AM, said:

You want to get better at dealing with Ranged? Get better gap closers. You can't complain about "Ranged" when your build has very few ways to get close to the target.

You mean stuff like Bull's Charge and Bola's that only work half the time?  Great suggestions.  Theres only like 100 different posts here and on the official forums on why Warriors are terrible in PvP compared to other classes.  If you want to play melee just go full bunker and let the thieves and eles on your team do the killing.  I tried PvP as warrior and it was brutal.  Trying to keep up with a D/D ele is impossible.  And when half the teams are always eles and mesmers its just hopeless.

But on topic I had the same thing happen when leveling my guardian.  Centaurs are the worst offenders.  They just run right threw you every single time.  Its why I never do Human starting zone anymore.

Edited by Lilly32, 07 February 2013 - 01:31 AM.

[Maxtofunator]

I fully agree that some of these things can be a problem, because I played a s/p mesmer, but luckily i could typically stun or use a ranged weapon [because all but 1 weapon are ranged for mesmer... wtf] to aggro, but that is generally how i feel that this game was supposed to be played. You start off with a ranged weapon to aggro the creatures and pull them to you and then switch to melee weapons to kill them if that is what you want.
The only classes I play almost FULL melee are thief and guardian, but they both have pretty amazing gap closers between the guardian GS leap and the theif heartseeker/shortbow shadowstep. However, that seems to be the best option for melee, use those weapon gap closers to move in before they aggro you. Which sucks pretty bad, i agree.

[Ryden Lotus]

I play an engineer. That be being said, I literally get a metal stick the size of my forearm for melee. xD

[Krazzar]

I haven't had any problems in melee range as a warrior, guardian, ranger, thief, necromancer or engineer. Literally every profession I have leveled to 80. Elementalist and mesmer are viable as well, but they don't fit my preferred style very well. Every profession has a way to survive in melee range and you need to figure out how to best use the tools at your disposal.

[Redhawk2007]

The same thing happens on my ranger. I always send my pet in first to gain aggro. The mob will start running towards my pet before she gets there, and when they meet, they will run past each other, then turn around and attack. If I start shooting too soon the mob will just keep running to me with my pet unable to catch up.

I call this "jousting" and it really is a horrible mechanic. In WoW if you or your pet and a mob were running towards each other, that mob would stop as soon as you met, unless you chose to run through them.

As for PVP, opinions can run either way. Obviously, against huge zergs in WvW melee gets eaten alive if it enters the zerg whereas range can stay at a distance and escape with greater ease. On my warrior I use my bow, stay at range and look for opportunities to jump in and finish weakened players or groups with heroic leap and whirling axes. Most fights ebb and flow and I try to attack with melee when they ebb.

1v1 on the other hand, is different. On my thief  I can destroy elementalists and necros in seconds by spamming the "2" key, while my staff elementalist would take a lazy afternoon worth of button mashing to kill a warrior and can barely survive a thief attack (I usually have to run or die against most classes). Our aoe can be dodged by a granny in a wheelchair, and skilled players know meteor shower isn't very effective, especially if they are in a large group which reduces the chance of actually being hit considerably because aoe damage is limited to 5 players.

I feel your pain, though. I don't play my warrior much in PVP because it's boring. Elementalist has the complexity I want having been a hunter in WoW but is squishy and underpowered as hell, and that complexity is a liability against heartseeker-spamming thieves.

[Dirame]

Lilly32, on 07 February 2013 - 01:29 AM, said:

You mean stuff like Bull's Charge and Bola's that only work half the time?  Great suggestions.  Theres only like 100 different posts here and on the official forums on why Warriors are terrible in PvP compared to other classes.  If you want to play melee just go full bunker and let the thieves and eles on your team do the killing.  I tried PvP as warrior and it was brutal.  Trying to keep up with a D/D ele is impossible.  And when half the teams are always eles and mesmers its just hopeless.

But on topic I had the same thing happen when leveling my guardian.  Centaurs are the worst offenders.  They just run right threw you every single time.  Its why I never do Human starting zone anymore.

Don't try to keep up with a class that is built to be faster than you. And I'm one of those weird people who thinks everyone who is complaining about the gap closers isn't playing the same class I'm playing. I use Bull's Charge, I use Sword (savage leap), and they all work for me. In fact one of my new favourite builds to play has only one gap closer and really smart people are able to kite me all the time but fortunately for me, my gap closer works and I'm able to win some of those fights.

May be it's just the way I play the class or may be it's because I know the class' limits and I'm okay with them but the fact is, it's only in certain builds that I actually feel this frustration. Hopefully, you can find your own way to fix it because I've given you mine.

Edited by Dirame, 07 February 2013 - 07:53 AM.

[FoxBat]

Move while doing almost anything is a pretty big eff you to the melee classes IMO. Short of immobilizing people and pulling off a combo, the guy kiting out of reach with his auto targeting ranged attacks is often having a much easier time. Warriors are competitively non-existent and bring nothing special to wvw, while guardians are valued in both pvp modes for everything but the damage they do. Meanwhile between stealth, backstab burst, and heartseaker auto-positioning, it's debatable just how "melee" thieves are.

That PvE mobs don't know how to do something as simple as kiting is a pretty big gap between pve/p balance. So the heavies end up OP in one mode and lacking in the other.

[kalendraf]

It really depends on the format.

In most of PvE, the game seems to favor melee over ranged.  I base this on my own experience with each class and some varieity of builds between them.  I've found that the melee builds seem more efficient at dispatching foes more quickly.  There are a few situations featuring foes that are harder to tackle up close, but those seem to be the rare exception across most of the explorable maps in PvE.

Dungeons are a bit more balanced.  I've found myself swtiching back'n'forth between melee and ranged regularly in that format.

WvW success often depends on range, especially if you're attacking/defending a keep, or you are facing/participating in a zerg.  The side with the bigger ranged advantage (which includes siege weapons) tends to prevail

I have very little experience with PvP, so I can't comment as to whether it favors ranged or melee or is more balanced.

Edited by kalendraf, 07 February 2013 - 02:48 PM.

[ZCKS]

@ the OP.

Arena.net designed it so that in GW2 melee tend to have higher damage potential & higher burst or more frequent burst then most ranged specs.

The down side is that melee have to be much more careful about AOE/cleaves/burst & can have some problems catching up with ranged opponents, granted this problem is nowhere near what it is is some games for some melee professions (points at ret paladins in WoW)

FoxBat, on 07 February 2013 - 02:24 PM, said:

Warriors are competitively non-existent and bring nothing special to wvw, while guardians are valued in both pvp modes for everything but the damage they do. Meanwhile between stealth, backstab burst, and heartseaker auto-positioning, it's debatable just how "melee" thieves are.

1: I wouldn't say warriors bring nothing to WvW, they can be very efficient at stacking mass vulnerability & lots of might which can make target focusing extremely fast.

2: Sadly this is true, guardians in WvW are nothing more then buff/cleanse bots because the only reliable damage they can do is melee. (I pray to whatever higher power this is solved soon, all they really need to do is slightly reduce the scepter #1 damage then make it have a normal projectile speed, then they would at least be able to do something else)

3: Thieves are definitely melee where WvW is concerned, their just annoying as f#$* with how easy they can escape combat unless you have a ton of immobilize & cripple effects.

[Jentari]

Well in the basic just attack a normal mob in PvE then I have better/faster kills.  Now if I do a dungeon or WvW, it is almost a must to be ranged.  In dungeons you want to be ranged in order to stay away from the bosses and in wvw you want to be ranged to try and stay away from the zergs.

[dawdler]

Jentari, on 09 February 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

Well in the basic just attack a normal mob in PvE then I have better/faster kills.  Now if I do a dungeon or WvW, it is almost a must to be ranged.  In dungeons you want to be ranged in order to stay away from the bosses and in wvw you want to be ranged to try and stay away from the zergs.

Why on earth would you want range in dungeons? Sure you can dodge away and do some ranged damage while recovering HP, but otherwise melee is king in dungeons. There is a reason why Warriors and Guardians are the two best PvE classes and it isnt because of their ranged skills. Its because they can facetank almost anything (that doesnt have specific mechanics) while buffing each other. There are a few exceptions, but not many (and usually only once or twice in a dungeon).

In WvW its a matter of coordination and numbers. AoE zergs can be quite effective in tight spots and they are fairly easy to control (target a spot and pump away)... But cavalry charges with smaller units of melee Warriors and Guardians plowing into their lines usually win an open field battle.

Edited by dawdler, 09 February 2013 - 08:29 PM.

[Cruzzi]

For 99% of PvE content in the game, melee > range.

For WvW, AoE ranged is superior overall because you can't melee at or from castle walls, and in general aoe from range is low risk high reward with the fairly disorganized zergs running around.

For sPvP, melee > range.

For high level (let's say >25, one can argue about which point melee starts becoming impossible though) fractals, pretty much the only exception to the PvE rule, ranged > melee because monster attacks at range tend to be easier to avoid. When getting hit by a TRASH MOB once has a good chance of taking atleast half of your health away, trying to stay in melee quickly becomes too much of a bother to be worth it.

Edited by Cruzzi, 10 February 2013 - 08:52 AM.

[dawdler]

Cruzzi, on 10 February 2013 - 08:48 AM, said:

For WvW, AoE ranged is superior overall because you can't melee at or from castle walls, and in general aoe from range is low risk high reward with the fairly disorganized zergs running around.

Perhaps for a zerg, but you have to admit its a blast seeing an organized guild take a doublewalled border keep on EB in less than a minute. Who needs ranged when the enemy dont even have time to engage you

[Asha2012]

No, not in my opinion.  I used to keep at distance using gs on my mes but lately I get into it using sword/focus or sword/pistol.  In fact, I use temporal curtain to pull groups into me and then let iWarden do her thing, shatter and use flurry.  I am traited so that I shatter too, create clone on dodge and carry the signet that lets me instantly recharge my shatter skills.  Sure with a Champion I have to kite but I will rush in release the aforementioned, switch to gs back away and heal whatever damage I've received, rinse repeat.

Also the guardian and warrior I party with don't seem to have too much trouble staying in melee even with a champion risen giant.  I will often pass my boons onto them and cast time warp and our ele is a healing buffs ele.  Bottom line is:  using a mix of range and melee isn't necessary but it can make things easier.

[Kymeric]

I keep finding that melee seems to be favored in the meta.  Most mesmer builds have sword as one weapon, eles favor d/d atm.

Turn on melee assist for your run-through problem.

[Red Sonya]

Quote

If you dont dodge and move you wont survive

I have yet to dodge and move up to level 40. I don't see the need for it and it's just a wasted feature for me. Perhaps when I reach a dungeon as you say but for now it's not necessary to survive. I solo stuff 5 levels higher than me with ease. It really comes down to if you "build" a better character skillset you won't have to "dodge or run". I have excellent skillsets and I do use two weapons and the mace is an excellent healing weapon. Battles might take longer but then I live longer too myself.

[AKGeo]

Red Sonya, on 10 February 2013 - 05:58 PM, said:

I have yet to dodge and move up to level 40. I don't see the need for it and it's just a wasted feature for me. Perhaps when I reach a dungeon as you say but for now it's not necessary to survive. I solo stuff 5 levels higher than me with ease. It really comes down to if you "build" a better character skillset you won't have to "dodge or run". I have excellent skillsets and I do use two weapons and the mace is an excellent healing weapon. Battles might take longer but then I live longer too myself.

Try playing the meat and potatoes of GW2 before making statements regarding the importance of a feature. If you haven't been past level 40, and haven't been in a dungeon, you don't know what you're talking about. That's simple fact. And claiming "excellent skillsets" at level 40 trash mobs is really laughable.

[Shiren]

You don't need to dodge until you enter dungeons or PvP. Maybe in group DEs in Orr you will have to dodge, but for the most part, a warrior can face tank most mobs and auto attack them to death. People were amazed that players were asking how to dodge (in Orr) for the daily (despite most of these people asking because they didn't know how to "Evade" - they knew how to dodge), but is it really that amazing that you can reach 80 without dodging? Outside of dungeons, dodging will usually just slow you down. Mobs just aren't usually threatening enough to justify the loss of DPS a dodge causes.

As far as favouring ranged professions, while I appreciate the OP specifically discusses a situation with the camera and turning a lot, the current meta seems to strongly favour warriors due to their superior DPS. As long as you (and your party) can stay alive (and glass cannon warriors have shown they can do this) the only thing that matters is DPS.

[Lunacy Polish]

Range is favored but for different reasons than those above.

In PvE ranged attacks are better because in events and the like it is much easier to tag each mob once.  Anything with a ranged AE attack can be lazier than a melee player and get better rewards for less actual contribution.   It is one of the biggest holes in the system.

Also a vigor boon or similar effect lets you kite all day and quickly kill mobs several levels above you not that you necessarily have to kite them.

In instanced content it is not such an advantage however with some characters the best playstyle can be to go in and melee until your capability to do so is gone, dodge roll out, switch to range until you are capable of going back in and repeat.  Also I always use a shotbow other my thief in PvE because you can kill many mobs quickly with no actual danger compared to melee options.  Some professions or builds will not resort to such things of course.

In PvP there is definitely a lot more room for slop with a range of 600 or more compared to 130; it is easier for first timers to learn.  It is far more forgiving to have range, and in WvW 1500 or more range lets you act as a mini siege engine.

It is not some insurmountable advantage however. My hammer/axe eats Rangers for lunch if they are alone.

[Red Sonya]

AKGeo, on 10 February 2013 - 10:47 PM, said:

Try playing the meat and potatoes of GW2 before making statements regarding the importance of a feature. If you haven't been past level 40, and haven't been in a dungeon, you don't know what you're talking about. That's simple fact. And claiming "excellent skillsets" at level 40 trash mobs is really laughable.

The statement was made "If you dont dodge and move you wont survive " I merely replied to that statement as untrue. The poster did not mention lvl 80 but did mention dungeons as an "addon" which I agree with. But, you do "not' have to dodge and move to survive the entire game.

Edited by Khalija, 12 February 2013 - 09:11 PM.
removed the insults

[AKGeo]

People who don't dodge in PvE aren't fighting half the champions out there. This might be a symptom of a bigger issue discussed en masse about the incentive for fighting champions.

But honestly...if you don't dodge/evade the cave troll in Queensdale (considering the vast majority of players run human and Queensdale DEs are farmed by tons of people) then you're gonna die. His heat-seeking rock WILL down any level-appropriate player, and will put a hurting on any higher level player along with being downed. Low level players don't have the utility skills required to break stun and stand up after the 3 second KD where he rushes up and slaps you in the face.

And that's simply one example. But I guess all those people being downed by said champions repeatedly are the ones who are upset about the dodge requirement for dailies. And for that I have no remorse.

[DarkGanni]

I've hated melee since the release of the game, lately I made an effort to finish my warrior and have to say melee isn't as bad as I thought. Dodging is very important (and makes you live longer).

Only thing I don't like about melee atm is when you attack and the mob starts moving back (not knockback), aside from that I'm at peace with melee combat.

From my point of view the game doesn't favor either side but melee requires a bit more effort.