280 replies to this topic

[d_fens]

Not only damage counts. Take the event in CoF P1 where you have to kill acolytes (or defend Magg event in P2). No matter how much damage you do, mobs respawn continuously. I had far, far, far more successful runs throught it with sonic boon and other more survivable builds than glass cannon. I stumbled upon some speedrun-wannabe groups with warriors in full berserker. Usually 2 or 3 of them were downed after first batch of acolytes and remaining party members had to stealth/ash kit/kite the rest of the event.

In PUGs you don't have the luxury of choosing builds of other players, you have to run with anything they run. I prefer to have that safety margin. I had a lot of situations where properly timed shout heal saved 2-3 party members from downing.

Edited by d_fens, 19 February 2013 - 04:46 PM.

[Rahlek]

d_fens, on 19 February 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

Not only damage counts. Take the event in CoF P1 where you have to kill acolytes (or defend Magg event in P2). No matter how much damage you do, mobs respawn continuously. I had far, far, far more successful runs throught it with sonic boon and other more survivable builds than glass cannon. In PUGs you don't have the luxury of choosing builds of other players, you have to run with anything they run. I prefer to have that safety margin. I had a lot of situations where properly timed shout heal saved 2-3 party members from downing.

It does matter how much damage you do, though. I melt the mobs so fast with glass cannon/full zerker ( with omnomnom pies for self heals) that oft times there's a second or two between waves.

If you kill them faster, it's less time they'll be off trying to kill your party, eliminating the need for shout heals.

I do see what you are saying with PUGs, though. They're annoyingly unpredictable.

[Thaddeuz]

I do prefer zapping these acolyte in a sec with my glass canon. I usually end up with full hp at the end anyways since i'm in combat only for a short time. But on the other end, i have so much more difficulty with the Magg Protection part with my glass canon in melee. In range you kite and AoE when you can so its pretty easy. But when my zerker warrior is in the middle of these mobs i usually have a hard time. Sure as long as i DPS them, i crit like hell and my omnomberry ghost keep my life pretty much at 100%, but when they decide to knock me down 3-4 times in a row, i barely get out of there alive. My hybrid Guardian do way better in this part than my zerker Warrior, and i bet a shout warrior would be better too.

[adra12]

This post and the 4 pages of arguments following it could not be more ludicrous. The original post is clearly aimed at the posters own guild and dungeon running mates and yet he delivers it like an address to the entire Guild Wars 2 community.

Its as simple as this, if you don't like the build someone else is running so much that it affects your ability to enjoy the game. Then tell them in the most respectful way you can manage, but don't be surprised if they are offended and cease running with you.

Believe it or not optimal is a relative term. To have the optimal build that build must be designed along with the build of every other player in the group with a specific encounter involved. So there can NEVER be one optimal build.

Secondly through out the 5 pages the poster made it crystal clear that this is also a personal attack on multiple members of this community because he feels their personal build is not optimized. Why should anyone accept the opinion of someone who exhibits this kind of behavior, what are your credentials that make you the optimization expert? Frankly unless you answer is that you are  the ANet developer who single hand-idly created and balanced the skill system your credentials aren't good enough.

For the record there are builds semi-optimized for helping PUG groups make it through instances and they are nothing like what you are suggesting. Considering 70% of the players in this game do not know how to and will not in any way optimize their build but they will still wish to partake in all content, you should learn who your audience is and learn to focus your argument towards them.

Edited by adra12, 19 February 2013 - 05:25 PM.

[d_fens]

Thaddeuz, on 19 February 2013 - 05:00 PM, said:

I do prefer zapping these acolyte in a sec with my glass canon. I usually end up with full hp at the end anyways since i'm in combat only for a short time. But on the other end, i have so much more difficulty with the Magg Protection part with my glass canon in melee. In range you kite and AoE when you can so its pretty easy. But when my zerker warrior is in the middle of these mobs i usually have a hard time. Sure as long as i DPS them, i crit like hell and my omnomberry ghost keep my life pretty much at 100%, but when they decide to knock me down 3-4 times in a row, i barely get out of there alive. My hybrid Guardian do way better in this part than my zerker Warrior, and i bet a shout warrior would be better too.

Those stunning/kd'ing mobs are annoying as hell. I swear i aggro only them in acolyte event when running zerker build. I usually have at least 2 of them on me. If I'm unlucky and both stuns hit, it usually ends up with flamethrower mob toasting me

[Rahlek]

d_fens, on 19 February 2013 - 05:31 PM, said:

Those stunning/kd'ing mobs are annoying as hell. I swear i aggro only them in acolyte event when running zerker build. I usually have at least 2 of them on me. If I'm unlucky and both stuns hit, it usually ends up with flamethrower mob toasting me

Hate.... flame thrower.

[chuckles79]

This is utter nonsense and I think an admin should close down this flamewar.

The vast majority of warriors gear spec somewhere in between glass cannon and bleeding heart support.  If a warrior has all PVT gear and goes 10/20/0/30/10; they will still do enough damage to get the team through the dungeon in decent time.

In the end, the effectiveness of a dungeon run always comes down to skill above build.

Effectiveness = (2 * skill) + (build / 1.5)

[Brand]

chuckles79, on 19 February 2013 - 07:01 PM, said:

This is utter nonsense and I think an admin should close down this flamewar.

The vast majority of warriors gear spec somewhere in between glass cannon and bleeding heart support.  If a warrior has all PVT gear and goes 10/20/0/30/10; they will still do enough damage to get the team through the dungeon in decent time.

In the end, the effectiveness of a dungeon run always comes down to skill above build.

Effectiveness = (2 * skill) + (build / 1.5)

While I do agree with this mostly entirely, there is one point I wanted to make. It is one of the few points the OP made that I fully agree with and that is: Just because content is easy or you CAN do something, doesn't mean you should.

Like the poster a few up said:

adra12, on 19 February 2013 - 05:22 PM, said:

Believe it or not optimal is a relative term.

There are 3 types of optimal's that I can think of:

1) Optimal Class/build: Most would say that it doesn't make sense to have a bulky tank thief, a condition guardian, etc and they'd usually be right. The build wouldn't be optimal for the class, and you probably shouldn't run it even if it is fun. If you like the build, try to find a class more suited to it, if you like the class, try to find a more suitable build.

2) Self-optimization: This means that your gear, build and etc are optimal in what they do. They are meant to perform a specific function, and the build/gear you have chosen is the best possible choice to perform said function. As an example, I give Sonic Boon, which is meant to be a casual build with support and it has been optimized for such. It is not optimal for speed runs, etc but it is still an OPTIMAL BUILD.

3) Meta-optimal: This term I totally just made up would refer to those who want the absolute best build and group to perform a task. This can even come down to changing the desired optimal build/group on a dungeon by dungeon basis. For most players this is too expensive and hard, but some do enjoy it. The flip side of this coin though, is that a so called "Meta-optimal" build will not be as effective when put in a different situation and with casual players. They are designed with specifics in mind, and with the human element being so fickle, the changing of an "Elite" player to a "Casual" player is a very significant variable.

Furthermore, in my personal opinion, people should not run any build they please just because. They should try to make the dungeon as easy and fun as possible at the same time, not only for themselves but their group. In believing this ideal, I think EVERYONE should opt for optimal #1. Optimal #2 is for those of us who would like to create and run a build, while seeing it succeed. And lastly option #3 is for those of us who find fun in min/maxing and wish to play that way in their select social group.

People running optimal #3 should not try to force their builds on people by saying other builds are worse off. The truth is the other builds are not worse off, but they are optimal for the variables in place. Something that works for you will not work for everyone, and there will never be a "Best build".

Thank you for reading.

Edit: By the way, +∞ internets for you Adra.

Edited by Brand, 19 February 2013 - 08:33 PM.

[Thaddeuz]

Brand, on 19 February 2013 - 08:03 PM, said:

Something that works for you will not work for everyone, and there will never be a "Best build".

That is especially true in GW2. In other MMO, the tank need to be as tanky as possible. No need to sacrifice some defense for some DPS or support. His role is specific and there is only one direction to go. This usually lead to a small pool of good build and everybody eventually use these build.

In GW2, since true Tank or true Healer are not achievable (compare to DPS, which is still achievable), a wide range of different build can be created and serve different purpose. The problem is that with a minimum of practice, a full DPS can survive as much as a tanky build or a support build in GW2. Making any other build than full DPS, not as useful with a good player (I'm talking about non casual player). This suck, since in the long term good player are slowly push toward one and only one kind of build : DPS.

Right now i use almost only glass canon build and I don't feel the need for support from my teammates, or i feel the support them give me come with such a small dps, that every fight feel longer and more difficult. For me its a problem, since to be able to go through the harder content, you need to be DPS. (Exemple : Arah path 4 or High level fractal). The game should not allow glass canon to be able to survive by its own, forcing people to go for hybrid build in solo or with pug. On the other end, to be able to go through higher content, you should need everyone in your team to specialize in support, cc or dps. This way, casual player could still use hybrid build so they are not stuck, waiting for a tank or a healer to complete a dungeon, while more hardcore gamer could create synergy in their team by creating specialist build and not only a full DPS group.

[chuckles79]

I would, personally, hate to be on a dungeon run with 5 pure glass players.  A degree of some survivability is necessary or you'll wipe a ot or spend a lot of time rezzing.

Yet, this game outside of PvP, does encourage DPS above other stats.  I think if everyone runs 75/25 offense to defense in gear/traits/skills; that they'll get the most out of dungeons.

[Bloggi]

Thaddeuz, on 19 February 2013 - 08:59 PM, said:

In GW2, since true Tank or true Healer are not achievable (compare to DPS, which is still achievable), a wide range of different build can be created and serve different purpose. The problem is that with a minimum of practice, a full DPS can survive as much as a tanky build or a support build in GW2. Making any other build than full DPS, not as useful with a good player (I'm talking about non casual player). This suck, since in the long term good player are slowly push toward one and only one kind of build : DPS.

Right now i use almost only glass canon build and I don't feel the need for support from my teammates, or i feel the support them give me come with such a small dps, that every fight feel longer and more difficult. For me its a problem, since to be able to go through the harder content, you need to be DPS. (Exemple : Arah path 4 or High level fractal). The game should not allow glass canon to be able to survive by its own, forcing people to go for hybrid build in solo or with pug. On the other end, to be able to go through higher content, you should need everyone in your team to specialize in support, cc or dps. This way, casual player could still use hybrid build so they are not stuck, waiting for a tank or a healer to complete a dungeon, while more hardcore gamer could create synergy in their team by creating specialist build and not only a full DPS group.

Spot on and I agree. Anet has been remarkably effective in removing the 'trinity'. As I said earlier, their intentions have intentionally or unintentionally created a push towards only high DPS builds (or dare we say, 'professions'), which I admit is effective in a myriad of situations in this game. Is it necessarily healthy? I'm not so sure that it is.

Having said that, can anything be done to rectify this? Should anything even be done about it? Those are more difficult questions to answer.

[Brand]

Bloggi, on 19 February 2013 - 11:09 PM, said:

Having said that, can anything be done to rectify this? Should anything even be done about it? Those are more difficult questions to answer.

Builds like Sonic Boon and Altruistic Healing (Guardian) provide very good dps as well as support for your team, both offensively and defensively. As long as there are "Paladin" builds like these, where you can at least provide something to your group while also dishing out some mean dps, I'll be happy. I'm good with hybrid builds and I like synergy especially, which is something these builds provide a lot of.

Not to go incredibly off topic here, but if anyone is interested in learning more about Sonic Boon or AH Guardian, check out this post on my thread. I found it very insightful as I was writing it and it's got some great info in it for anyone trying to decide between the two builds, or looking for something in heavy armor that isn't made of glass

(In hindsight, I think this is perfectly on topic. People are looking for these builds, so go check out that post and see what they can bring to a party!)

Edit: By the way, sorry if this comes off as advertising. Most would think not since I'm talking about 2 builds and showing them both off, but people seem to like to stretch the truth and see things as they please. For the record, I'm showing both because they are both good, and I only linked you to that post in my thread because that is where I posted it.

Edited by Brand, 20 February 2013 - 12:06 AM.

[Lucav]

adra12, on 19 February 2013 - 05:22 PM, said:

This post and the 4 pages of arguments following it could not be more ludicrous. The original post is clearly aimed at the posters own guild and dungeon running mates and yet he delivers it like an address to the entire Guild Wars 2 community.

Its as simple as this, if you don't like the build someone else is running so much that it affects your ability to enjoy the game. Then tell them in the most respectful way you can manage, but don't be surprised if they are offended and cease running with you.

Believe it or not optimal is a relative term. To have the optimal build that build must be designed along with the build of every other player in the group with a specific encounter involved. So there can NEVER be one optimal build.

Secondly through out the 5 pages the poster made it crystal clear that this is also a personal attack on multiple members of this community because he feels their personal build is not optimized. Why should anyone accept the opinion of someone who exhibits this kind of behavior, what are your credentials that make you the optimization expert? Frankly unless you answer is that you are  the ANet developer who single hand-idly created and balanced the skill system your credentials aren't good enough.

For the record there are builds semi-optimized for helping PUG groups make it through instances and they are nothing like what you are suggesting. Considering 70% of the players in this game do not know how to and will not in any way optimize their build but they will still wish to partake in all content, you should learn who your audience is and learn to focus your argument towards them.

No, people passing off defensive builds as "invincible" and having "great damage" are ludicrous, and calling them out is definitely not.

[Raemyi]

Lucav, on 20 February 2013 - 05:05 AM, said:

No, people passing off defensive builds as "invincible" and having "great damage" are ludicrous, and calling them out is definitely not.

To be fair, I think there's just that *one* that's blatantly calling itself "invincible".  And, well, "great" isn't exactly a high-end term of endearment.

[chullster]

d_fens, on 19 February 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

Not only damage counts. Take the event in CoF P1 where you have to kill acolytes (or defend Magg event in P2). No matter how much damage you do, mobs respawn continuously. I had far, far, far more successful runs throught it with sonic boon and other more survivable builds than glass cannon. I stumbled upon some speedrun-wannabe groups with warriors in full berserker. Usually 2 or 3 of them were downed after first batch of acolytes and remaining party members had to stealth/ash kit/kite the rest of the event.

In PUGs you don't have the luxury of choosing builds of other players, you have to run with anything they run. I prefer to have that safety margin. I had a lot of situations where properly timed shout heal saved 2-3 party members from downing.

The ignorance in this post is staggering.

I suspect those who advertise the warrior healer builds have never even tried a full glass build, let alone a full glass team. The comments I read above are just amazing.

The acolyte bit is hard? are you serious?

I'll give a quick run through, and then tell me where the hard bit is.

1. Come into room, one person at each spawn point, they appear, 2 or 3 auto attacks and they're dead, break aggro wait 30 secs for next 4 to appear. Personally I wait up the top of the platforms overlooking the room.

2. Next 4 spawn, I come down from platform, use whirlwind attack killing nearest acolyte  as I pass then use GS skill 5 to one-shot the furthest acolyte, turn around, break aggro, wait for last set, kill only 2, grab chest and you're done.

Why are you even talking about killing the constantly spawning mobs? because you don't know what you're doing! you even, without knowing it, describe the fact you've don't know how to do the acolyte part. So you can see why your opinion on healer warriors being good is completely invalid.

You do not attack anything but the acolytes, you break aggro and just wait for the others to spawn, there are even multiple places to wait.

You say your using "properly times shouts" to heal? Such a waste. FGJ and OMM should be spammed on recharge for the damage buffs, you're standing around wasting utility slots in case someone needs a crappy 1.5k heal?

You even say they're a wannabe speedrun, well guess what, it's probably your fault they failed due to you bring a wammo shout healer instead of DPS build, as they probably asked for, and is the primary role of a warrior especially so in CoF path 1 runs.

You're right about PuGs, can't pick and chose what others run, so now even in non speed runs I've started asking if anyone is a tank or any of the wars are shout healers, anyone says yes, then because I'm not a *, I say "ty" and leave.

I just saw the guy asking whether to run clerics or apothocary on his war in the forum, why are warriors so messed up for GW2? None of the other professions forums seem to be riddled with terrible builds and people advocating bad ideas.

Edited by chullster, 20 February 2013 - 11:01 AM.

[xtbx]

Brand, on 19 February 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

Uno, I was speaking of champions, not legendary mobs.
Dos, most bosses don't auto attack that high, from what I have seen.
Tres, Even if some bosses do auto attack for that high, I cannot see this being even close to the majority.
Quatro, I am also not talking about high level fractals.
Cinco, the ones that do hit for that high probably hit very slowly and are easy to avoid.

pls stop , I still believe you are semi smart kid so just admit you were wrong about that statement and don't embarrass yourself even more

Brand, on 19 February 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

P.S. The first part of your comment made MY day.

First of all, my estimate is about 12% more damage, for the common group. I can't defend my build against optimal builds in an optimal setting with an optimal group. However, I think if you are basing your words (Not speaking directly to you here by the way) on the small amount of times that optimal everything is present, you need to think wider.

Also, in my example I said 5 glass cannons (AKA people doing all the same damage) to show that a 12% increase in damage isn't that great of a thing. Though it is good, and far above worthless.

I'd also like to say that Playboy's calculations are correct, since he said, "each of which does the same damage". However, it is true that this is rarely the case.
Regardless, you are correct, the shout heals aren't always effective. In turn, Glass Cannon builds are rarely effective when wielded by the common player. And it should be noted that warriors do not do so much more damage than other glass cannon build party members, at least not nearly enough to make other classes obsolete. I know a thief who doesn't run a permastealth build (*gasp*), he runs RFI, Haste and SoA. With those tools he can dodge like a ninja and spam unload (DP), and this does very very good dps.

Furthermore, I don't need optimal settings for Sonic Boon to be good. Take an example group of one of each guardian, thief, ranger, elementalist and a Sonic Boon warrior. Now if I was a Glass cannon, I'd be doing 12% more personal damage. I'm a Sonic Boon warrior though, which means I'm giving everyone 64% Fury and 6 stacks of might. This works differently for each player, true, but it's still VERY good. Assuming the Guardian is not a full tank (Most arent) and the other 3 are traited for damage (Most are, barring the ele but I don't see many support eles). 20% crit chance for 13 seconds every 20 is HUGE on a team like that, not to mention the extra 210 power/Condition damage. Compared to a Glass Cannon that is 32% more fury and 3 more stacks of might for each party member. These party members (And any outside this example) are going to benefit greatly from those stats. Most players besides guardians, warriors, and eles trait for damage (From what I've seen), so it's not like our buffs are being applied to 4 tanks with 1k dps.

So to answer your basic question, I think they do. Heals for the group, no matter how small, are pretty damn useful. Throw in the fact that we remove conditions from the group every 20 seconds, apply OMM for 10 vuln for 11 seconds every 24 (On most mobs), and rezz faster/easier. Not to mention that we do have extra defenses from traits as well as gear.

Of course a Glass cannon will do significantly more than 12% damage than us if put in a party with a Mesmer, Guardian, and 3 other warriors. That is more of a "Glasscannonway" though, than a build. I'm not arguing my builds ability to do a specific thing in a specific group specifically (And also with specifics). I'm saying its good for a casual group with casual people who want to live and have high damage.

Give a casual player in a casual group a Glass Cannon build and I gaurentee you Sonic Boon will perform better. Hell, give a good player a Glass Cannon build, put him in a casual group, and I'd still bet a chunk of change that group dps will be higher with Sonic Boon (And I'm not all too keen on gambling).

yes, I agree ... there you go

This is good build for bad players and bad party composition
put it at the start of your thread and none will ever say anything against it anymore
but without it it looks like you are trying to present top notch build which it is not

Brand, on 19 February 2013 - 08:03 PM, said:

...
1) Optimal Class/build: Most would say that it doesn't make sense to have a bulky tank thief, a condition guardian, etc and they'd usually be right. The build wouldn't be optimal for the class, and you probably shouldn't run it even if it is fun. If you like the build, try to find a class more suited to it, if you like the class, try to find a more suitable build.
...

and yet you take DPS class and try to made it into poor support ...

Brand, on 19 February 2013 - 11:42 PM, said:

Builds like Sonic Boon and Altruistic Healing (Guardian) provide very good dps as well as support for your team, both offensively and defensively. As long as there are "Paladin" builds like these, where you can at least provide something to your group while also dishing out some mean dps, I'll be happy. I'm good with hybrid builds and I like synergy especially, which is something these builds provide a lot of.

Not to go incredibly off topic here, but if anyone is interested in learning more about Sonic Boon or AH Guardian, check out this post on my thread. I found it very insightful as I was writing it and it's got some great info in it for anyone trying to decide between the two builds, or looking for something in heavy armor that isn't made of glass

(In hindsight, I think this is perfectly on topic. People are looking for these builds, so go check out that post and see what they can bring to a party!)

Edit: By the way, sorry if this comes off as advertising. Most would think not since I'm talking about 2 builds and showing them both off, but people seem to like to stretch the truth and see things as they please. For the record, I'm showing both because they are both good, and I only linked you to that post in my thread because that is where I posted it.

... gasp
you obviously have absolutely no idea what guardians are used for in this game ...


PS: I kinda start to understand why some ppl stop bothering to discuss with you

[chullster]

xtbx, on 20 February 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

PS: I kinda start to understand why some ppl stop bothering to discuss with you

*raises hand*

[lalangamena]

I really enjoy the debate and conversation, but i still have no idea what is this "wammo" thing?

[heatrr]

lalangamena, on 20 February 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

I really enjoy the debate and conversation, but i still have no idea what is this "wammo" thing?

Something like:

Edited by heatrr, 20 February 2013 - 12:44 PM.

[Thaddeuz]

chullster, on 20 February 2013 - 10:50 AM, said:

You do not attack anything but the acolytes, you break aggro and just wait for the others to spawn, there are even multiple places to wait.

Never tried that one before. I usually go either with my Ranged Glass Canon and we pretty much kite the mobs and keep their number low. Or even better, its when everybody is a ranged glass canon with me and my Hybrid Guardian. I keep the mobs on me, my omnomberry ghost keep my hp at 100% pretty much all the time, and i got enough toughness to stay alive when they knockback me 3-4 times (got two break stun that help too). The 4 other simple smash the mobs that a keep all together. This way we keep the mobs' number to a minimum, we even go out of combat sometimes between the waves.

xtbx, on 20 February 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

yes, I agree ... there you go
This is good build for bad players and bad party composition

Some of my best friend are casual player, that you call bad players and i really don't like it. You have no reason to be mean against someone that just enjoy a game not playing it like you play it. I agree with a part of what you want to say, but i totally disagree on the way you communicate it and your disrespect while doingg so. In the end its a game and people can play the game as they want, you can propose them some way to improve their build, but what your doing is not a good way. Sonic Boon is a good build for casual player which represent a LARGE majority of the players. And surprise, this large majority that you seem to dislike are the ones that allow you to play GW2. The hardcore gamers are not enough to keep the game going, and that you like it or not helping these casual player by explaining dungeon when they come on your party is a better way to improve your and their game time and not by kicking and insulting them.

Lucav, on 20 February 2013 - 05:05 AM, said:

No, people passing off defensive builds as "invincible" and having "great damage" are ludicrous, and calling them out is definitely not.

Maybe ludicrious are a strong word. But i agree on that. The term ''invincible'' should never be use by someone posting a build. And the words ''Great Damage'' is often wrongly use. Only Glass Canon build have great damage, because they sacrifice all they can in defensive to reach the best damage. How a more defensive build can have more defensive and more offensive at the same time?? Its just a bad choice of word.

[chullster]

lalangamena, on 20 February 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

I really enjoy the debate and conversation, but i still have no idea what is this "wammo" thing?

A reference to a build from GW1, in which you could select a secondary profession, this one referring to a warrior/monk, who usually brought more heals than damage, would spam chat with "I cannot die!" "stand still and I'll heal you!" or some such nonsense, then proceed to be ignored (in pvp anyway) until all his team mates were dead then be pounded into the ground.

It's a derogatory term, a reference to a joke build, like ham-storm or ham-shower, although one of those at least was featured on the original box apparently.

Thaddeuz, on 20 February 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

Never tried that one before. I usually go either with my Ranged Glass Canon and we pretty much kite the mobs and keep their number low. Or even better, its when everybody is a ranged glass canon with me and my Hybrid Guardian. I keep the mobs on me, my omnomberry ghost keep my hp at 100% pretty much all the time, and i got enough toughness to stay alive when they knockback me 3-4 times (got two break stun that help too). The 4 other simple smash the mobs that a keep all together. This way we keep the mobs' number to a minimum, we even go out of combat sometimes between the waves.

There's no point in doing any of that, because you don't have to, and I could be wrong, but I don't think they drop anything either.

The Acolytes respawn in about 30 sec intervals, allowing you to have a brief chat with your team mates in between killing them. Using omnom ghosts for CoF farming is a little overkill don't you think? Soloing Lupious in arah ok, I understand, also means you're not using Omnom bars which as it's a farming run you would want that extra 40% gold.

I'm not making things up when I say try a proper speed-run in CoF, even with PuGs, as that's all I do. You'll notice little differences like that. A good way to tell if the group is any good is if they sort out who has which banner before they start, if there's no banner of discipline you're in a bad group, and don't take that run as how it's supposed to be done.

A full glass team played well is honestly the best experience this game has to offer, whether CoF farming or a fractal run, though as I PuG, it is a rare thing too.

Edited by chullster, 20 February 2013 - 02:56 PM.

[xtbx]

Thaddeuz, on 20 February 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

Some of my best friend are casual player, that you call bad players and i really don't like it. You have no reason to be mean against someone that just enjoy a game not playing it like you play it. I agree with a part of what you want to say, but i totally disagree on the way you communicate it and your disrespect while doingg so. In the end its a game and people can play the game as they want, you can propose them some way to improve their build, but what your doing is not a good way. Sonic Boon is a good build for casual player which represent a LARGE majority of the players. And surprise, this large majority that you seem to dislike are the ones that allow you to play GW2. The hardcore gamers are not enough to keep the game going, and that you like it or not helping these casual player by explaining dungeon when they come on your party is a better way to improve your and their game time and not by kicking and insulting them.

first of all I'm not native speaker so "bad player" doesn't sound offensive to me

back to topic
fat ppl are fat and they will remain fat even if we call them not so fit

even though my post could end up offensive it wasn't aimed at those not so good players it was aimed at Brand and mainly at the way of promotion of his build

I have nothing against bad players. Hell many of my ingame friends are bad players themself, but what I do is I give them good build (not wammo) and teach them how to play right and then if I see they just can't handle that I suggest something like Brands build - but this is only for ppl that can't improve ... like my 50y old dad who plays with one hand (holding pipe with other), clicking skills, not bothering with silly things like dodge ...

but that is what I sad, Brands build is good for bad players and should be presented as that so ppl who want to do hard content (high lvl fractals/dungeons, speed runs, etc) doesn't have to wonder why they are kicked from parties the second they say what they run ... they may be good players but when running bad builds (or builds not ment for good players) I assume they are bad ...

to end my rant I would like to highlight this part from OP:

Quote

Easy content, rather than an excuse to slack off, is an encouragement to go faster.  Sure, any crappy build can do CoF1 in 10 minutes.  But only efficient builds can do it in 6.  Why are you satisfied with mediocrity?  Why is “good enough” good enough?  You shouldn’t be, and it isn’t.  This is a loser mentality.  Winner mentality is pushing yourself to excel even when you don’t have to.

ofc anyone has right to be looser but can't be offended when winners call him looser ... it may be hard to bite but it's just truth

[Rahlek]

Thaddeuz, on 20 February 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

The term ''invincible'' should never be use by someone posting a build. And the words ''Great Damage'' is often wrongly use. Only Glass Canon build have great damage, because they sacrifice all they can in defensive to reach the best damage. How a more defensive build can have more defensive and more offensive at the same time?? Its just a bad choice of word.

This needs to be put somewhere on this forum where everyone can read it. Like bolded on the front page... not in a thread.

Too many of these builds try to do too many things. As the saying goes: "Jack of all trades, master of none."

[Thaddeuz]

chullster, on 20 February 2013 - 02:42 PM, said:

There's no point in doing any of that, because you don't have to, and I could be wrong, but I don't think they drop anything either.

The Acolytes respawn in about 30 sec intervals, allowing you to have a brief chat with your team mates in between killing them. Using omnom ghosts for CoF farming is a little overkill don't you think? Soloing Lupious in arah ok, I understand, also means you're not using Omnom bars which as it's a farming run you would want that extra 40% gold.

I know i don't have too, but its fun. My guild and I are currently farming CoF for ectos so we play with all our character to make thing different each run. It was just some of the ways we do it. We don't have to, but it seem natural to us. For the omomberry ghost i know its a bit extreme. I usually run with omnomberry bar, but ghost don't really cost a lot (still have a stockpile of candy) and it was fun to do. I won't gonna use my ghost on each run.

xtbx, on 20 February 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

first of all I'm not native speaker so "bad player" doesn't sound offensive to me

back to topic
fat ppl are fat and they will remain fat even if we call them not so fit

even though my post could end up offensive it wasn't aimed at those not so good players it was aimed at Brand and mainly at the way of promotion of his build

I have nothing against bad players. Hell many of my ingame friends are bad players themself, but what I do is I give them good build (not wammo) and teach them how to play right and then if I see they just can't handle that I suggest something like Brands build - but this is only for ppl that can't improve ... like my 50y old dad who plays with one hand (holding pipe with other), clicking skills, not bothering with silly things like dodge ...

but that is what I sad, Brands build is good for bad players and should be presented as that so ppl who want to do hard content (high lvl fractals/dungeons, speed runs, etc) doesn't have to wonder why they are kicked from parties the second they say what they run ... they may be good players but when running bad builds (or builds not ment for good players) I assume they are bad ...

It would be my last comment on that, because we simply have different view on that. You divide player between Good and Bad. Good are player that are good with Glass Canon build and bad player are everybody else. Two of my friend are using Sonic Boon build. I'll go with them in pretty much any content. We did together all dungeon (except for Arah Path 4, they switched character and we do it), they do level 20+ Fractal and i brought 1 of the two on a level 48 with my Fractal group. Not your saying that my friend is bad or have a bad build but he was able to complete 99.99% of the game with this build. The only exception was Arah Path 4, and the Devs are planning to change the boss with the spark (don't remember the name) so you don't need a full glass canon team to complete it. At this point, my friend with this ''bad'' build will be able to complete ALL the content of the game. A bad build is something that you need to carry and i never felt like carrying him. A bad player i someone that screw up your run by making a stupid low amount of dps, dying all the time or doing stupid thing in dungeon all the times. If someone can go through all the content of the game without being carried by his team, then how can you say that his build is bad or that he's a bad player. Its obviously not a TOP player, neither that he have the optimal build, but bad seriously.

[xtbx]

Thaddeuz, on 20 February 2013 - 05:08 PM, said:

It would be my last comment on that, because we simply have different view on that. You divide player between Good and Bad. Good are player that are good with Glass Canon build and bad player are everybody else. Two of my friend are using Sonic Boon build. I'll go with them in pretty much any content. We did together all dungeon (except for Arah Path 4, they switched character and we do it), they do level 20+ Fractal and i brought 1 of the two on a level 48 with my Fractal group. Not your saying that my friend is bad or have a bad build but he was able to complete 99.99% of the game with this build. The only exception was Arah Path 4, and the Devs are planning to change the boss with the spark (don't remember the name) so you don't need a full glass canon team to complete it. At this point, my friend with this ''bad'' build will be able to complete ALL the content of the game. A bad build is something that you need to carry and i never felt like carrying him. A bad player i someone that screw up your run by making a stupid low amount of dps, dying all the time or doing stupid thing in dungeon all the times. If someone can go through all the content of the game without being carried by his team, then how can you say that his build is bad or that he's a bad player. Its obviously not a TOP player, neither that he have the optimal build, but bad seriously.

I know what you mean but that is what OP sad and what I quoted ... "good enough" is good enough - is wrong
taking your example I often take some less experienced players with my group too and it's ok but it doesn't mean it couldn't be better or faster

everytime I'm teaching someone to run any content we discuss his/her build too and I'm trying to help them to improve it
if someone doesn't know better build it's logical that he runs what he knows but if someone runs worse build on purpouse only because he can make mistakes with it ... for me that is a bad player

[Thorfinnr]

xtbx, on 20 February 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

ofc anyone has right to be looser but can't be offended when winners call him looser ... it may be hard to bite but it's just truth

You know...claiming to be a winner and calling others losers...just shows you to be the intellectual inferior that has to resort to name calling instead of intelligent discussion up to and including the point of agreeing to disagree...and pretty much tanks anything you may have said that could have been valid by lacing it with your own ignorance.

I'm gonna chime in here...I've had discussions on differnet classes and build ideas with many of the folks posting in here. (Brand, Sithicus, Lucav, Chullster, Strife, etc.) and each of them have good insight into different aspects of the way things function in this game.

I would be classified as a "Casual" player, as I do not get to play every day, nor do I worry about "Speed Clears" or any hardcore PvP, but I do enjoy W v W. I play Fractals and I do Dungeons.

I enjoy running Sonic Boon, but I also tweak it based on the situation(I have thrown in Banners and adjusted some Traits based on the situation). I also run with Strife's Axe/Axe build and I enjoy a good run with a Hammer (Gasp?!?!?) even though Hammer is not the best for handing out DPS, but good in some CC instances(Nothing Like Having a Hammer War and Hammer Guardian in AC Story to pick one of the lovers and just bat them back and forth lol) ...personally I do it just because its fun.

Trying to find the beneficial info amongst all this "I'm a winner and you're a loser" is just an effort in futility.

Are there places where ALL of these builds could be made better? Sure...but it has to be done in conext...as some of them are set for specific scenarios (Like Strife's Axe/Mace DPS Dungeon build thread, which works very well for me in Dungeons, btw.)

The thing that was pointed out a few posts back was, Anet has done its best to get rid of the Holy Trinity...thank goodness...all these builds are a result of NOT being able to rely on just one class/person to carry the load as the "Healer", "Tank", or "DPS".

Are Hybrid builds optimal...of course not...are full Glass-Cannons the best...not hardly. I have had to spend more time pulling up Glass-Cannons than I care to count...although it does help in getting my Daily Healer completed. Also, if I am running a more Hybrid build, I have to make sure I pay more attention to dodging and staying close to people so I can support them as they support me...different play-styles to suit different functions of different builds.

When I am running solo out in PvE open world, and need a bit more self-healing, Sonic Boon can be a good choice. Would I run it in high-level Fractals? No...its not meant for that...Brand even says its not meant for high level fractals. Do I use Strife's Axe/Mace DPS Dungeon Build to go play WvW? No...Strife lays out that its tweaked for DUNGEONS. Really, read threads and understand what these builds are supposed to do before just telling people they suck and their builds suck.

When running into a group of "competent" players out in PvE, which I guess I have been lucky to never run into any players that I would consider "bad" players, I can switch up some utilities and adjust some traits on the fly and make a better fit...this holds true for several of the builds I have found on here and enjoy using.

Sithicus pointed out this is a great place to have a discussion like this, and I agree...it had potential...but I just can't get past the blatant ignorance of people who just seem to say "you suck, and I'm superior, and because you don't agree with me you're just proving you suck"...and blanket saying "Casual players are bad players"...just shows your ignorance on how different people play this game and the fun that can be had in GW2 no matter what your skill level.(props to Thaddeuz for pointing this out!) Unfotunately the thread starter is also a basher of anyone who doesn't agree with their point of view...so maybe it wasn't started with the "best of intentions."

chuckles79, on 19 February 2013 - 07:01 PM, said:

This is utter nonsense and I think an admin should close down this flamewar.

The vast majority of warriors gear spec somewhere in between glass cannon and bleeding heart support.  If a warrior has all PVT gear and goes 10/20/0/30/10; they will still do enough damage to get the team through the dungeon in decent time.

In the end, the effectiveness of a dungeon run always comes down to skill above build.

Effectiveness = (2 * skill) + (build / 1.5)

Unfotunately I am gonna have to side with Chuckles here...on both points...Skill goes a long way...and we seem to never be able to get past the juvenile attitude of "I say I'm a winner and my build is best, so I must be better than you, so you suck." Its already become a flamewar, and anything even remotely beneficial is getting lost.

To Strife, Chullster, SIthicus, Brand, etc...keep putting together builds and ideas...some of you may not get along; but some of us learn a lot from the concepts, builds, and discussions that don't end up like this.

[Nikephoros]

Rahlek, on 20 February 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

Too many of these builds try to do too many things. As the saying goes: "Jack of all trades, master of none."

I agree with this whole-heartedly.  One thing I neglected to put in my original post explicitly but you may have concluded on your own, is that role specialization is extremely important, especially to Warriors.  

Secondly, I don't think I should have to say this, but apparently I do based on the strawman arguments I've seen: glass cannon builds aren't for everyone.  If you don't know the encounters or have fast enough reactions to dodge the stuff you need to dodge you should probably be running a lot of Knights gear.  Take Strife for example, he is a far better player than I am, but he was using Knights pieces and has phased completely to Zerker as he has gotten comfortable.  I would be surprised if anyone could install the game, play full zerker with no expenses and succeed in difficult content right away.

Everyone has their own comfortable level and should build to that.  That said, if you sacrifice DPS for comfort, do not make irrational arguments about why a more defensive spec is "better."

[Rahlek]

This took me a bit to put together, so I apologize if it seems as though I'm rambling. That's not the intention, but I think this needs to be said.

I think part of the problem here is that people are getting the terms "casual" and "bad" confused. The terms are not interchangeable. I've run across players that consider themselves "hardcore" (many with Legendaries) who are downright awful (don't know how to dodge, stand in AOE circles trying to facetank bosses, etc) and many "casual" players who I wouldn't trade for a hundred of the former.

--There is nothing wrong with wanting to optimize your character's damage down to the last decimal point.

--There is nothing wrong with specc'ing in a way that may not be 100% optimal but that's fun for you provided you are not doing so at the expense of the fun of the people you are playing with.

There IS something wrong with people who think they can define what's fun for either camp, and there IS something wrong with people who deliberately play in such a way that they are making things more difficult on the group they're with just because they want to be special. When you get into a group, it stops being about your unique snowflake build and YOUR fun and starts being about the COLLECTIVE fun of the other four people as well as your own.

I'm in a sort of situation currently that gives me a bit of an understanding some may not have. I am a hardcore player that belongs to a casual guild because my career/life does not afford me the time I would like to devote to Guild Wars right now. We don't do speed clears, and we're only in the late teens-20s in fractals. While I could probably go join another guild and be much farther progressed than I am, I don't. I like playing with the people in my guild. I don't mind tweaking my tactics a bit to cover something our less-than-100% optimal group is missing, nor do I mind taking a little longer on runs.

Does this mean I'm going to change my style of play for the folks I run with and not play glass cannon Axe/X like I enjoy? Nope. Does it mean they're "bad"? Not at all. They know how to dodge, get out of AOE, and they understand fight/profession mechanics. I just have no problems adapting a bit and making a concession here and there in order to keep things fun for everyone, and nor do they. (I mean, how fun is it to pop into vent straight into a math/theorycraft conversation for a class you don't even play? Ask my guildies. They know all about it.)

TL;DR: No matter your style of play, you do not have the right to say what's fun for someone else, nor do you have the right to make the game less fun for someone else. One is just as bad as the other.

[lmaonade]

Personally, I think healing shout builds are a success, I'd say a majority of warriors have ran it at some point or another in their career as a warrior, and while it's not an optimal build it marks the start of when people start building into what they either feel more comfortable with or into better builds. For me, I started using a healing build as a fresh 80, after I stopped soloing maps with a 5 signet build, so you can say that I've "evolved" in my warrior building, and it builds from there on after also, into what I use today (I use the standard GS DPS build for dungeon running)

It's like saying middle/high school is a failure because its effects are not as definitive or as useful as college.

Edited by lmaonade, 20 February 2013 - 06:47 PM.

[Brand]

Alright, I've read over the posts I missed, and I agree with most of them and I think this thread should probably come to a conclusion. Thorfinnr and Rahlek are making some great points, and it seems maybe even the OP has had a slight change of heart.

I just wanted to reply to two last things, and then I'm probably done with this thread.

chullster, on 20 February 2013 - 10:50 AM, said:

The ignorance in this post is staggering.

I suspect those who advertise the warrior healer builds have never even tried a full glass build, let alone a full glass team. The comments I read above are just amazing.

I love it when you say funny things.

Most people try or at least read most builds, I've tried 3 different types of glass cannon builds (Including the "generic" one) and I plain don't like them.

xtbx, on 20 February 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

This is good build for bad players and bad party composition
... gasp
you obviously have absolutely no idea what guardians are used for in this game ...

Actually, people would call me a liar, since that's a lie.

Um.. did you even read it? It's a direct comparison between the two builds. One popular warrior build and one popular guardian build that have similar qualities, and they are compared. So what, pray tell oh vast wizard of knowledge, are guardians for?

Anyway, yeah I'm done here.