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Warrior Builds: Success and Failure

warrior builds theorycraft glass cannon

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#181 TastySlop

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 09:34 PM

View PostBrand, on 22 February 2013 - 09:06 PM, said:

The number isn't 188 hps currently, it is 180.5 hps (We lost 50 Compassion). That amount of hps is nearly 40% better than a constant regeneration boon, and it stacks with regeneration. I wouldn't so easily call that "trivial".
Regeneration is also trivial. :lol:

#182 KaptainO

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 09:35 PM

Self importance?  I dunno it's pretty apparant in all of your posts.  Whether talking about how you are better at math than the "common man" or referring people to a wall of text you wrote analysing the Guardian (a class you don't even play) because you found it "insightful" as you were writing it.

Bad Math?  Well, your calculations for Sigil of Strength Procs and Empowering Might don't take into account the internal cooldown, your math for the HPS of shouts is bad because you assume that you're using all 3 shouts on cooldown and that the shouts have 5 people in range who get 100% benefit from the heal (i.e. no overhealing).

Poor Logic?  Your logic that Soldiers runes are bad because they remove conditions, and removing conditions from the group is bad because someone else might have a skill that turns conditions into boons?  The logic that you can't remove any points from boon duration because otherwise you won't be able to self stack 25 stacks of might on a single target - in any group there should be a couple of classes handing out might so you don't need to self stack to 25, if you do you are wasting might stacks.

Stubborn Refusal to accept criticism? I have seen you refuse people's ideas to change your build because "everything is best the way it is" such in this quote below:

View PostBrand, on 10 November 2012 - 12:57 AM, said:

How close exactly?
You basically need everything in here to stay the same or it won't work as good, everything is very crucial to this build. So I'm just curious about your build, how it works, and maybe even if there is any room for it to improve!

Sure you'll point at the couple of people who made suggestions that after multiple pages of posting on your thread were finally and begrudgingly accepted, but as a whole you are not open to other options.

I'm not sure which part of my 5th point you are disputing?  Your crusades to other people's threads and other class's forums to dispute their builds (as well as providing a link to your crusade on your thread to make sure you get the glory you deserve among your followers) clearly show that you feel you are an authority on what is a good build.  Your comments about using non AR infusions in ascended slots, not having done any/many fractals and being incredulous that a boss could hit you for 4k really shows your lack of experience - how you can advocate Wammo as a build based purely on your experience in Open World or Ascalonian Catacombs over other builds written and played by people who have videos showing their high speed clears of multiple dungeons, level 30+ Fractals and soloing Giganticus Lupicus.

Don't get me wrong, it's totally cool that you play that way, it's totally cool you have a fun build that works great as a casual player and works well in a Pug - but say that, give full disclosure that it's a casual build designed for XYZ.

I've been following your thread (among others) for a few months now and I've almost typed this kind of response to you before but I've always just deleted it because I've seen you argue with others and I can see that you just don't take others points or opinions.  For you this is not about finding the best answer, it's about making sure that your answer is considered the best answer.

I don't know what prompted me to do this (probably a combination of a slow day at work and my pet peeve of people arguing on the internet picking on spelling/typing/grammar) but I'm sure it will end the same way most of your arguments end - with walls and walls of texts and semantics, your opponent finally walking away shaking their head because it just isn't worth the effort and with you feeling that you "won" another debate.

#183 KaptainO

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 09:43 PM

View PostBrand, on 22 February 2013 - 09:14 PM, said:

Apologizing makes me condescending?

"self important guy who jumps into other people's threads, other class's forums to talk down to people with walls of text, bad logic and faulty math - all based on a woefully small amount actual in game experience in the subject"

Yes, I do tend to remark on topics when I am posting in the forums.
Other classes forums? You mean Guardians? When I was having a friendly conversation with Strife that included no walls of text, bad logic, or faulty math?
You know my in game experience, how?

Rather than make claims about things, would you please supply some proof? Right now you are literally doing all of the things you are mad at me for (Read: Providing no proof, faulty logic, etc.). I believe I responded to another post of yours before this one in which I refuted some claims and asked you to supply proof for the others. Several of the points mentioned in the quote above were also addressed but we have not been given proof of these claims.

It wasn't your apology for being condescending that makes you condescending - it was the being condescending that did that.

You provided uninformed math and poor logic in GK's thread on the Guardian boards also.

As for how I know how limited your experience is?  Well you admitted to not having done much in the way of Fractals.  Does your character actually have the Ascended gear in your visualbuild or is that theory?  You also seemed incredulous at the idea of bosses hitting for 4k.

#184 Brand

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 10:37 PM

View PostTastySlop, on 22 February 2013 - 09:34 PM, said:

Regeneration is also trivial. :lol:
Okay.

View PostKaptainO, on 22 February 2013 - 09:35 PM, said:

Self importance?  I dunno it's pretty apparant in all of your posts. Whether talking about how you are better at math than the "common man" or referring people to a wall of text you wrote analysing the Guardian (a class you don't even play) because you found it "insightful" as you were writing it.

Bad Math?  Well, your calculations for Sigil of Strength Procs and Empowering Might don't take into account the internal cooldown, your math for the HPS of shouts is bad because you assume that you're using all 3 shouts on cooldown and that the shouts have 5 people in range who get 100% benefit from the heal (i.e. no overhealing).

Poor Logic?  Your logic that Soldiers runes are bad because they remove conditions, and removing conditions from the group is bad because someone else might have a skill that turns conditions into boons?  The logic that you can't remove any points from boon duration because otherwise you won't be able to self stack 25 stacks of might on a single target - in any group there should be a couple of classes handing out might so you don't need to self stack to 25, if you do you are wasting might stacks.

Stubborn Refusal to accept criticism? I have seen you refuse people's ideas to change your build because "everything is best the way it is" such in this quote below:

Sure you'll point at the couple of people who made suggestions that after multiple pages of posting on your thread were finally and begrudgingly accepted, but as a whole you are not open to other options.

I'm not sure which part of my 5th point you are disputing?  Your crusades to other people's threads and other class's forums to dispute their builds (as well as providing a link to your crusade on your thread to make sure you get the glory you deserve among your followers) clearly show that you feel you are an authority on what is a good build.  Your comments about using non AR infusions in ascended slots, not having done any/many fractals and being incredulous that a boss could hit you for 4k really shows your lack of experience - how you can advocate Wammo as a build based purely on your experience in Open World or Ascalonian Catacombs over other builds written and played by people who have videos showing their high speed clears of multiple dungeons, level 30+ Fractals and soloing Giganticus Lupicus.

Don't get me wrong, it's totally cool that you play that way, it's totally cool you have a fun build that works great as a casual player and works well in a Pug - but say that, give full disclosure that it's a casual build designed for XYZ.

I've been following your thread (among others) for a few months now and I've almost typed this kind of response to you before but I've always just deleted it because I've seen you argue with others and I can see that you just don't take others points or opinions.  For you this is not about finding the best answer, it's about making sure that your answer is considered the best answer.

I don't know what prompted me to do this (probably a combination of a slow day at work and my pet peeve of people arguing on the internet picking on spelling/typing/grammar) but I'm sure it will end the same way most of your arguments end - with walls and walls of texts and semantics, your opponent finally walking away shaking their head because it just isn't worth the effort and with you feeling that you "won" another debate.
I did not say I was better, I said I was "more into it", as in I like it.

Well it is a wall of text because there was a lot to go over, I can't really help that. I found it insightful because I do not play the class, and I learned a lot. Would not others also learn some things?

You're right, it would seem I have forgotten about it. That doesn't mean it is bad math, it's simply a mistake. If you saw this as an issue, I would have greatly appreciated you mentioning it to me on my thread. How can you be bothered by a math error so much and yet not even point it out? Mine was a mistake, but by intentionally not responding, you are also directly at fault for any misinformation.

I assumed optimal conditions for both myself and the Guardian build in question. From the optimal scenario you can deduce how things might work out in a not so optimal scenario. He asked for a comparison of the two builds, without an optimal situation, everything would just be luck. How can I compare luck vs luck?

The reason that that is an issue is because it is not our job in the party to be removing conditions. If someone else came into this party with that in mind, we could be significantly damaging their build (Wasting their entire rune set). It is another reason to the many that Sonic Boon users should not have those runes.

In an optimal group there will perhaps be some of that, but not many others. The most might that will be given out would be via an AH guardian in the group. Regardless, we have taken out Sigil of Strength recently, meaning that our stacks have gone down enough to make sure others aren't being wasted.

Refusal to change my build?! He was talking about his build in PvP. I merely asked him a question about his build in comparison to mine. Perhaps if you read a little further you would see this:

View PostBrand, on 10 November 2012 - 12:57 AM, said:

How close exactly? I haven't seen any builds the same as this one, and you basically need everything in here to stay the same or it won't work, or at least not as good :x Everything is just very crucial to this build, the traits, the weapon, the runes, the armor/accessories, the skills, it all needs to stay fairly constant. So I'm just curious about your build, how it works, and maybe even if there is any room for it to improve (No offense meant by this, I am genuinely curious).

Also this build is for PvE/Dungeons though I suppose you could use it in PvP (I haven't tested it in PvP, really.)

Glad you liked the build :D
That was the original message, showcased here. I shortened it later in an attempt to encumber the thread less (Before I knew how posts worked). As you can see I was open to his opinions and looking forward to them, but I wanted him to understand that if he had changed it drastically, it may not be as effective.

And you expected me to what? Accept their point directly with no questioning? Doesn't that seem a little silly to you? If I accepted everyone's thoughts with no counter argument or math, what would the build look like today? It was also never "begrudgingly", when they had a point I admitted it, changed something, creditted them, and went on.

So, in the case of GuanglaiKangyi, their thread was brought to my attention by a poster on Strife's thread and I decided to check it out. Is there some law that says I have to stay in my one forum and can't do math for other builds, etc? As for Strife's thread where I was asking him questions about the math and etc I had posted, yes I had to show him my posts in order for him to do that. If Strife had/has a problem with me asking some questions on his thread in regards to a relevant guardian discussion on my thread, he can come to me about it.

I admitted to not even noticing the lack of AR on the Karmic Infusion.

I amended my statement afterwards, stating that I was speaking of Champion boss mobs and even some ancient/epic boss mobs and that I was not talking about high level fractals. I can advocate my "wammo" build based on all of my experience because not everyone is a reflex god capable of soloing the boss of an instance.

Pretty sure I have. It's quite apparent to some people who read my thread, like Thorfinnr.

I do tend to hope my answer is the best and argue my point, but never once have I disregarded a sensible point by another member. I always look into it, think about it, and defend my case if I have to.

Again, I can't really help that discussions require walls of text. But look! I color coded it for you guys so that it's easy to see which points I'm responding too ^^

View PostKaptainO, on 22 February 2013 - 09:43 PM, said:

You provided uninformed math and poor logic in GK's thread on the Guardian boards also.
It was uninformed, yes. Guardians aren't my class, I was confused about something, asked a question and provided math to show why I was confused. It turned out there was a mistake in my math and GK refuted me, I acknowledged his/her point, and thanked him/her for his/her time. S/he doesn't appear to be upset, so why are you?

Not even mentioning that you were uninformed, used poor logic, and provided proof that has been refuted in this matter. You are doing the very thing that you say I've done and are mad at me for it. Look! You even show frustration and say that I'm just going to type a wall of text AT THE END OF YOUR OWN WALL OF TEXT.

Why are you above your own law?


Edited by Brand, 23 February 2013 - 01:05 AM.


#185 Sithicus Dias

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 01:44 AM

Brand you really need to stop feeling like you need to respond to every little point, it makes threads like this really lose their appeal. I felt like we were getting into some good discussion but you've taken it upon yourself to try and prove everyone else wrong. At this point you've effectively dragged yourself to the same level you perceive everyone else to be on (aka trolling you). You do seem to phrase things in a slightly unfavourable manner though. When that happens of course people take it badly, then they respond in kind. It's really quite the vicious circle. If anything perhaps you can begin to understand which phrases you use that tend to upset people, given the amount of responses you have had to your prior posts.

Also let's not go throwing around terms like "I'm more into math" etc, when it comes down to it, none of the maths here eclipses addition, subtraction, multiplication and division. Model this stuff with some partial differential equations, then we shall talk. Or better yet, write a MATLAB script, then you'll seriously have my attention.

An interesting point that was raised before about Sonic Boon's lack of testing in Fractals got me thinking. I'm fairly certain a lot of posters in here are quite into their Fractals. I'm floating around the early 30's myself, having a little trouble getting my regular team together to push it higher. Nevertheless at a certain point approaching Level 20 it became pretty clear just how Fractals are the ultimate challenge. Fractals changed my perception of the game, because you really need to build yourself to be able to cope within Fractals, and when you do that you can handle anything. Myself and a lot of the rest of you can attest to the efficacy of Omnom Pies, and they take very good care of you, even in higher Fractals. It's reasonable to say that they don't really diminish in effectiveness. Anyhow that's all well and good because you are taking care of yourself.

Essentially you have the capacity to maintain yourself, however builds like Vigorous Shouts quickly diminish in their effectiveness as the level gets higher. This is because the amount you heal for just isn't sufficient to make any real difference. The damage your allies take is devastating, which further identifies the importance of being a very good Dodger, and finding use for Blocks. I put together a post highlighting an intelligent approach to survivability, The tl:dr goes something like this: realistically you can interupt attacks with CC, or block/dodge them, failing that you have a measure of damage reduction from Armor, and then after that your only option is having a high health pool, or healing.

Realistically the intelligent move is to prevent damage at all costs. That fact never becomes more prevalent than when you're getting your bottom handed to you in high level Fractals. If your allies are getting hit frequently in situations like that then they are dead, whispering sweet nothings into their ear won't save them.

I'm still waiting to see/hear some empirical evidence for Sonic Boon in Fractals, I suspect the reason for this lack of evidence is possibly tied in to the calibre of player who runs it. Now let me be clear with this, I am not condescending players, nor am I screaming the "n" word, I am merely suggesting that the more hardcore Warriors have accepted the nature of how a build needs to be. I learned an important lesson, I theorycrafted Vigorous Shouts a while back, but I quickly let it die when I learned how to play the Warrior as it was meant to be played.

Edited by Sithicus Dias, 23 February 2013 - 01:46 AM.


#186 Brand

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 02:20 AM

View PostSithicus Dias, on 23 February 2013 - 01:44 AM, said:

Snip

I learned how to play the Warrior as it was meant to be played.
I really abhor not being able to get in my point of view.

But who are we to say how a Warrior was meant to be played? There was supposed to be no "holy trinity" in this game, which not only means that tanks and healers are out, but also straight DPS. In my opinion a glass cannon is NOT how a warrior was meant to be played. In fact I think there is no real "way" at all. Anet has a lot on their plate right now with the February Event and dungeons, etc. but I am almost positive they will do something about how optimal glass cannons are. The point of removing the trinity was a sort of "Equality for all", and if Glass Cannons are the best then that just gets flattened. It's only my opinion, but I think soon after Anet is done with this event, we'll see some nerfs on class's ability to do the things they can now. I mean think about it, one class that can basically do everything? This goes against Anet's entire philosophy with this game.

#187 backwards25

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 03:56 AM

View PostBrand, on 22 February 2013 - 08:26 PM, said:

Snip

I've updated my Google Docs spreadsheet (log out/swap browsers to hide your partial email). Obviously I could not account for changes yet to happen...

Also note that, as the first post or two should always remain current and comprehensive, I built my spreadsheet off those alone.

You're certainly right about wasting time trying to use a banners skills, what I intended to point out was a single warrior could provide a party with permanent fury. Not necessarily through use of the banner skills himself, but his allies using it.

Furthermore, there are a few fights where there is no time cost in using banner skills. For example, against the end Snowbind Fractal boss during the icicle phase, the Mossman when he's invisible, or the mid-level Volcanic Fractal champions shield phase.

#188 Puandro

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 05:52 AM

View PostBrand, on 23 February 2013 - 02:20 AM, said:

I really abhor not being able to get in my point of view.

But who are we to say how a Warrior was meant to be played? There was supposed to be no "holy trinity" in this game, which not only means that tanks and healers are out, but also straight DPS. In my opinion a glass cannon is NOT how a warrior was meant to be played. In fact I think there is no real "way" at all. Anet has a lot on their plate right now with the February Event and dungeons, etc. but I am almost positive they will do something about how optimal glass cannons are. The point of removing the trinity was a sort of "Equality for all", and if Glass Cannons are the best then that just gets flattened. It's only my opinion, but I think soon after Anet is done with this event, we'll see some nerfs on class's ability to do the things they can now. I mean think about it, one class that can basically do everything? This goes against Anet's entire philosophy with this game.

You can play how you want and do the content, Arena Net never said all build types are as optimal as each other. Pies help you live but they make no diff in high fractal levels if you live or die when stuff blows 50%-100% of your health a hit and all you have is dodges and blocks with some Cc thrown in.

#189 Rahlek

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 07:21 AM

View PostBrand, on 22 February 2013 - 10:37 PM, said:

Holy mother of God wall of multicolored text!! *snip*

If you were wondering why people are thinking you're egocentric and condescending, posts like this are why.

You pick things apart and then colour code it like the person you're talking to is in kindergarten.

There is no need for a response this long. You don't need to argue every minutiae. Why? Because TL;DR. :\

#190 Sithicus Dias

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 09:34 AM

View PostBrand, on 23 February 2013 - 02:20 AM, said:

There was supposed to be no "holy trinity" in this game, which not only means that tanks and healers are out, but also straight DPS.

Yes that's true, and while on the whole I think Anet have achieved removing the Unholy Trinity effectively. GW2 like just about every computer game ever involves the same mechanic that an enemy has "health" that you remove by dealing damage to it. So you can't really remove DPS from the Unholy Trinity or else you end up with something akin to Hello Kitty Online, and none of us want to go back to that.

DPS is always going to feature, but since most fights can be ended quickly by doing more DPS, you effectively prevent yourself from damage that way. I used to think that by running a tanky build and getting in the enemy's face was a good idea. It does work, running that VS build of mine was great for occupying an enemy, using Counterblow and Shield Stance as tactical blocks was really great. However when you run content frequently you get a feel for how quickly things die. As soon as I see an enemy isn't dying quickly whose fault is it? Mine, because I'm just prolonging things, that prolonging can cause your allies to be exposed to more opportunities to take damage, which can wipe you.

The sooner I realized that occupying an enemy doesn't necessarily work in the grand scheme (since you can't really maintain your allies well enough to endure a long fight, too much relies on their own dodges etc), the sooner I realized you just have to cut things... things!

Edited by Sithicus Dias, 23 February 2013 - 09:36 AM.


#191 KaptainO

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 04:30 PM

View PostBrand, on 22 February 2013 - 10:37 PM, said:

Not even mentioning that you were uninformed, used poor logic, and provided proof that has been refuted in this matter. You are doing the very thing that you say I've done and are mad at me for it. Look! You even show frustration and say that I'm just going to type a wall of text AT THE END OF YOUR OWN WALL OF TEXT.

Why are you above your own law?


I'm very informed, used fantastic logic and none of my claims have been refuted.

Also, the only reason I typed as much as I did is because you requested, nay demanded I do a point by point including quoting your posts.

All so you could spew a rainbowvomit post back at me.

What is your current Fractal Level?

#192 KaptainO

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 04:54 PM

View PostRahlek, on 23 February 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

If you were wondering why people are thinking you're egocentric and condescending, posts like this are why.

You pick things apart and then colour code it like the person you're talking to is in kindergarten.

There is no need for a response this long. You don't need to argue every minutiae. Why? Because TL;DR. :\

/agree

I really do think it's this egocentric (great word btw) demeanor that causes most of Brand's problems with other posters and I'm kind of surprised that it hasn't been brought up before.

I honestly don't think his build is a "Bad Build" and if it was presented without pomposity, superiority and condescension I don't think he would have issues.

#193 Kingdo Goodbomber

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 06:31 PM

I call shenanigans on builds that don't have a single screen cap or video accompanying them.  Lots of people talk on the Internet.

#194 Sithicus Dias

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 07:39 PM

View PostKingdo Goodbomber, on 23 February 2013 - 06:31 PM, said:

I call shenanigans on builds that don't have a single screen cap or video accompanying them.  Lots of people talk on the Internet.

This is why I find Strife's posts very easy to follow, I just watch his videos before reading the post, because watching the video tells you all the important stuff, the text is there for further reading. Suits me fine.

#195 calm_sea

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 06:01 PM

Reading this post makes me realize how little I really know about this game, and I find it fascinating.  I can see the point made by both sides.

In theory, going full out DPS at the cost of all else has it's benefits both to the warrior himself/herself and to the group.  The more supportive builds have their places as well (possibly), due to the support being provided to everyone else making the group perform better as a whole (possibly).  I don't have the time, patience, resources, or insight to try both out and make a real comparison.

The thing that I haven't seen brought up is if player preferance and fun is really WORTH prioritizing over a 100000% optimum build.  Yes, if you're trying to run efficient high level fractals you should not use a completely useless and stupid build, but is a dungeon run that is 4 or 5 minutes shorter really that big of a deal?  I always saw GW2 as a game of possibilities, with multiple ways to approach building a character, and while there will always be methods which are better than others, the "right way" isn't always the only way.  Furthermore, what is it that people are trying to accomplish by only using the most optimum builds?  There are no raids in GW2 and the dungeons have been out for quite some time.  Guild Wars 2 doesn't really have an "e-sports" following (in my opinion), so it's not like people are rushing for a "world first" like they are in a game like WoW.

I say, play what you find the most fun as long as it doesn't hamstring your group too much.

#196 Kingdo Goodbomber

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 06:20 PM

View Postcalm_sea, on 24 February 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

The more supportive builds have their places as well
Sure, in WvW.

View Postcalm_sea, on 24 February 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

I say, play what you find the most fun as long as it doesn't hamstring your group too much.
1 piece of cleric gear in PvE = hamsting

It's not a coincidence that other games have DPS meters and enrage timers and other things to determine if overall DPS is shit, and in other games a < 5% difference in DPS between you and the next guy is the difference between a raid spot and not being in a competitive guild, yet in a game like GW2 there are no DPS meters and suddenly sacrificing 15%-20% of your DPS for paltry gimmicks and taking twice as long to kill stuff is the pro thing to do and claiming a spreadsheet says so.

Just for comparison, GW2 has/had DPS checks (e.g. SE 1, CoF p2 Magg, etc.) but since they require(d) actual DPS and couldn't be done with any old gimpy "support" build in full cleric gear, the scrubs found cheap ways around them via silly 1-2-2 graveyard zerging or just straight up whining about how path X is impossible when the real issue is they're bads with bad specs.

#197 Ship Soo

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 11:44 PM

View Postcalm_sea, on 24 February 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

The thing that I haven't seen brought up is if player preferance and fun is really WORTH prioritizing over a 100000% optimum build.  Yes, if you're trying to run efficient high level fractals you should not use a completely useless and stupid build, but is a dungeon run that is 4 or 5 minutes shorter really that big of a deal?  I always saw GW2 as a game of possibilities, with multiple ways to approach building a character, and while there will always be methods which are better than others, the "right way" isn't always the only way.  Furthermore, what is it that people are trying to accomplish by only using the most optimum builds?  There are no raids in GW2 and the dungeons have been out for quite some time.  Guild Wars 2 doesn't really have an "e-sports" following (in my opinion), so it's not like people are rushing for a "world first" like they are in a game like WoW.

I say, play what you find the most fun as long as it doesn't hamstring your group too much.

Amen Brother, amen.

View PostKingdo Goodbomber, on 24 February 2013 - 06:20 PM, said:

1 piece of cleric gear in PvE = hamsting


I don't think anyone was suggesting running Cleric's on warriors. Maybe I missed it.

I for one think you should lay off Brand. I don't find his posts arrogant at all and I think you might be finding what you want to find.

If intelligent thoughtful posts irritate you, well...

View PostZahrim, on 17 February 2013 - 07:20 PM, said:

Much appreciated, thanks for helping to make this community great.


Posted ImageLoperdos, on 15 February 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

PS, I really enjoy the respectful, honest and civil discussion this thread has successfully employed(esp between Brand and Sith)


I'm not the only one to think this, btw ^^

I see a definite lack of respect and courtesy in this whole thread.

Or maybe my opinion does not matter since my fractal level is 2

View PostRaemyi, on 18 February 2013 - 09:58 AM, said:


It looks like, on this point at least, you two aren't really in disagreement. The more specialized DPS builds will excel in organized and professionally managed groups, while builds like Sonic Boon do bring advantages to the table for more casual or simply unorganized play, where not all of the variables are under strict regulation.  The crux of the debate, at least as far as I've been able to tell (and feel free to correct me), seems to have arisen from a different set of assumptions.  You assume the most optimal situation (organized guild, specialized roles, practiced veteran players), whereas Brand assumes the most *common* situation demographically speaking (PUG, unpredictable builds, unpredictable team skill or synergy).  You call builds like Sonic Boon pretty much useless, but you're assuming a certain context, and then people like Brand defend said builds, assuming a *different* context.

Does that sound about right?  Honestly, I don't see the big deal, here.  No one ever claimed that shout-healing builds were a good idea for speed clears or perfectly optimized play.  That would be silly!  Of course, maybe you're just arguing that any sane player *should* play in organized settings, aiming for optimization, and that things like PUGs are a bane on society.  But, if so, shouldn't that be its *own* debate?  Such a philosophy certainly seems contested enough to warrant one, from the way this thread's been going.  Can't exactly take that as a matter of common sense, especially when elitist (not in the derogatory sense) philosophies are, by definition, the very opposite of common sense. :surprised:


What this guy said ^^

/thread

Edited by Ship Soo, 25 February 2013 - 12:09 AM.

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#198 TastySlop

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 04:59 PM

No, these builds with support elements are also making assumptions based on optimal situations and not the common situation. I will gladly admit that I started with Sonic Boon build when my warrior hit 80 because back then it was the best presented build on the forums and a might-stacking greatsword build looked like a good idea. The shout heals looked like an interesting addition.  However, after many dungeon PUGs, I couldn't see the shout heals making any significant difference. (When I was in trouble and wanted healing, I wanted a 50%+ heal not a 5-7% shout heal that barely moved the health bar.) I quickly dumped the shout heals by merely retraiting for more DPS and noticed a huge difference in damage output and couldn't detect any negative changes in anything else.

I know everyone is going to have their own anecdotal evidence, but mine is that when running with random PUG groups, my shouts rarely ever affect more than myself and maybe one other party member. For example, my last PUG of AC was with 2 eles, 1 thief and 1 necro. I would check the party window after hitting FGJ and none of them were getting the fury/might, not even the thief who must have been using shortbow. They were always standing miles away. I think this is a more accurate depiction of the "common" situation. Buffs intended for the whole party are only going to actually be used on the whole party in an organized group. In a PUG you are much better off focusing on personal DPS and personal survival - that is the best way to help the group succeed.

#199 Red_Falcon

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 06:00 PM

View PostTastySlop, on 25 February 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

No, these builds with support elements are also making assumptions based on optimal situations and not the common situation. I will gladly admit that I started with Sonic Boon build when my warrior hit 80 because back then it was the best presented build on the forums and a might-stacking greatsword build looked like a good idea. The shout heals looked like an interesting addition.  However, after many dungeon PUGs, I couldn't see the shout heals making any significant difference. (When I was in trouble and wanted healing, I wanted a 50%+ heal not a 5-7% shout heal that barely moved the health bar.) I quickly dumped the shout heals by merely retraiting for more DPS and noticed a huge difference in damage output and couldn't detect any negative changes in anything else.

I know everyone is going to have their own anecdotal evidence, but mine is that when running with random PUG groups, my shouts rarely ever affect more than myself and maybe one other party member. For example, my last PUG of AC was with 2 eles, 1 thief and 1 necro. I would check the party window after hitting FGJ and none of them were getting the fury/might, not even the thief who must have been using shortbow. They were always standing miles away. I think this is a more accurate depiction of the "common" situation. Buffs intended for the whole party are only going to actually be used on the whole party in an organized group. In a PUG you are much better off focusing on personal DPS and personal survival - that is the best way to help the group succeed.

I share the same feelings.
We all love to post builds that, in a specific and optimal situation (usually rare), give the best but common situations don't.
I prefer a more reliable build that always gives optimal results rather than a build that gives a big return only when a lot of "if's" happen.

That said tho, a shout build achieves exactly what it should: it gives support to the team while offering a bit less DPS.
It's also true that the efficiency of shout healing goes down a lot when you consider overhealing and spread-team situations, and that there are better ways to obtain self-survival - yet it's the best we can get, if used properly, from a pure team healing perspective.
The latest version of Brand shout healer (the one with 5000 or so E.Power) is pretty good actually, but only if used properly (avoid overhealing/out of range) else I agree that it's useless, and I also agree that not everyone might want to work under those limitations.

Even banners are understimated a lot.
They might heal a bit less compared to shout healing (not so much when you consider overhealed shouts/out of range), but they offer great buffs to the whole team.
Banner of strength+discipline+standard used on top of FGJ and Empower Allies give the most offense increase a Warrior can give to a team, and this is unique of that build.

Ultimately, as long as your build is maximized (i.e. you're getting the best returns from stats) and in-game application of it is properly done, you're giving the best.
Those who say their build is the absolute best and everything else that might deal 5% less damage but offer 20% more damage reduction/healing/banner buffs etc... they're merely elitist junkies that farmed CoF1 and think the same can be applied in the entire game, which is very far from truth.

The reality is that in the real endgame aka fract 40-50 things hit for bazillions and you can't dodge everything.
CoF1 pure zerkers are less effective than a properly min-maxed build that allows you and/or your group to survive better and therefore ultimately deal more DPS.
A pure zerker in that setting only works with a Guardian that makes up for your major lack of defense - but again, there isn't always a Guardian covering you.

GS full zerker has as much limitations and situational inefficiency as most builds, for instance the reliance of HB on targets standing inside the radius for 3.5s, the lack of defense and thus less staying power in melee range (and therefore DPS decrease), etc.
It comes on top of every other build only in specific situations - but isn't that true for every build?

I think it's a very good thing that Warriors go around with a wider variety of setups, and it's very detrimental to have people or threads that throw smack at anyone that isn't a GS full zerker.
There is a whole world of very effective builds outside FF7 cloud clones, whether some people realize it or not.

Edited by Red_Falcon, 25 February 2013 - 06:01 PM.


#200 Ioflux

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 06:31 PM

View PostRed_Falcon, on 25 February 2013 - 06:00 PM, said:

snip

There are A LOT of effective builds I can think of off the top of my head thats certainly fun and hilarious to run dungeons with.

Truth is "Very effective =/= optimal". I could say running 5 ele's in full cleric auto attacking water jets healing for ~2000 hp/s and say its optimal cause no one is at risk of dying. Many people are "followers" and very few are willing to be pioneers or innovators. They will rather go lookup a guide and follow it than put thought into coming up with their own and evolving from there. I'm all for taking a step back from "optimal" to potentially find a more optimal setup. I don't mind doing something inefficiently in an attempt to figuring out better situations. Breaking away from the meta is the only way to create a better meta. There is also a difference between doing it for the sake of science and finding a better outcome compared to being stubborn and settling for "it's fine as is." I personally want to always find better and faster ways and willing to be proven wrong, but without visual proof past theorycrafting, it's hardly reliable.


Personally, I don't like most of strife's builds, but it just happens to be that alot of the skills/traits that are top notched overlap with his setup. I even remember the days I cringed at him for not using walls of reflect and shield of avenger in fractals.

#201 Keith

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 06:24 AM

Agreed with OP actually, the little heal from a shout build simply isn't enough to be game changing. If you pug a lot, then you know that bad players will die even with your shout heal, and good players simply won't need your shout heal. And honestly, I'm not going to time my FGJ to heal people, it's for damage buff :x

#202 Nikephoros

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 08:06 PM

Has anyone else noticed that most of the "noise" in the warrior forum is spent convincing people to stop running warriors like guardians, and most of the noise in the guardian forum is trying to convince people not to run guardians like warriors?

Maybe it's a grass is always greener mentality?  All the shout heal warriors desperately want more utility to "help pugs" while all the glass cannon zerker guardians want more dps to "help pugs."  

I, for one, find it all very funny.

#203 Thaddeuz

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 08:13 PM

View PostNikephoros, on 28 February 2013 - 08:06 PM, said:

Has anyone else noticed that most of the "noise" in the warrior forum is spent convincing people to stop running warriors like guardians, and most of the noise in the guardian forum is trying to convince people not to run guardians like warriors?

Maybe it's a grass is always greener mentality?  All the shout heal warriors desperately want more utility to "help pugs" while all the glass cannon zerker guardians want more dps to "help pugs."  

I, for one, find it all very funny.

Clever. I never thought of that, but it seem true lol.

#204 Red_Falcon

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 06:14 PM

View PostIoflux, on 25 February 2013 - 06:31 PM, said:

There are A LOT of effective builds I can think of off the top of my head thats certainly fun and hilarious to run dungeons with.

Truth is "Very effective =/= optimal". I could say running 5 ele's in full cleric auto attacking water jets healing for ~2000 hp/s and say its optimal cause no one is at risk of dying. Many people are "followers" and very few are willing to be pioneers or innovators. They will rather go lookup a guide and follow it than put thought into coming up with their own and evolving from there. I'm all for taking a step back from "optimal" to potentially find a more optimal setup. I don't mind doing something inefficiently in an attempt to figuring out better situations. Breaking away from the meta is the only way to create a better meta. There is also a difference between doing it for the sake of science and finding a better outcome compared to being stubborn and settling for "it's fine as is." I personally want to always find better and faster ways and willing to be proven wrong, but without visual proof past theorycrafting, it's hardly reliable.


Personally, I don't like most of strife's builds, but it just happens to be that alot of the skills/traits that are top notched overlap with his setup. I even remember the days I cringed at him for not using walls of reflect and shield of avenger in fractals.

My main gripe with shout healing can be summed up in 3 points.
Point 1: Endure Pain alone prevents more damage than healing shouts can recover, so not having it is a major survivability and staying power loss.
Point 2: SIO is useless in the majority of situations. In the wide and wilde majority of endgame conditions are trivial, let alone that you steal conditions other players could convert to boons (Guards/Necros).
Similarly, OMM is totally useless in any team that already offers 25 stacks of vuln (necros, rangers etc)
Point 3: Less effective than banners when taking into account real in-game situations. Reasons:
A) Banners offer a major damage increase shouts can't offer.
B ) They don't lock your utility set. They still allow you to slot utilities that are much more needed (bolas to lockdown bosses, EP to prevent tons of damage, balanced stance where knockdown is prevalent etc)
C) They heal more than shout healing when you consider out-of-range shouts and overhealed shouts. Banners have 900 radius and the stacked regen stays with you if you happen to go out, therefore never missing to heal like shouts and can't be "wasted" like shouts.

Anet needs to change shout healing to give 3s protection 3s regen per shout.
Due to 30% boon duration they would last 4s thus offering your team 12s prot 12s regen out of 20s.
Until it's changed, shout healing is simply inefficient in PvE.

But in other situations like WvW mass PvP situations it isn't bad at all.
The problem is most Warriors use it in PvE.

Edited by Red_Falcon, 06 March 2013 - 06:16 PM.


#205 Ioflux

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 07:09 PM

I hate the shout heal build outside of screwing around. Period. I'd rather play guardian or ele than run shout heal warrior in a serious encounter in PvE.

#206 Nikephoros

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 08:14 PM

When I heard shout heal warriors started using clerics gear, that is when I knew that people had completely lost their minds.

#207 d_fens

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 10:12 PM

Let's just delete all gear except Berserker, delete defense and tactics trait lines and make all boss encounters HB,HB,dodge,WW, HB,HB.....

All pro zerker warriors (and their pro time warp bots) will be happy and scrubs can go farm penitent/shelter with their hammer condition builds and stay away from dungeons. No more build wars on forums, yay!

ANet needs to do some serious rebalancing of both dungeon encounters and traits/skills/gear to keep their game interesting. Zerging all bosses with GS war team will eventually bore even the hardest CoF1 farmers.

Edited by d_fens, 06 March 2013 - 10:14 PM.


#208 cold2

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 11:47 PM

View PostNikephoros, on 06 March 2013 - 08:14 PM, said:

When I heard shout heal warriors started using clerics gear, that is when I knew that people had completely lost their minds.
It makes sense if you don't know much about the game. I thought the same thing when I first started.

"Hm, Arenanet said any profession can fill any role? I'm more of a supporty guy, but I think warriors are fun, too. I'll play a support warrior! I'll spec into shout heals and get +healing gear to keep my team alive."

Eventually you come to the realization that healing gear scales extremely badly with shouts, and shout healing is lackluster at best either way. Only problem is, a lot of people haven't come to that realization yet.

Edited by cold2, 06 March 2013 - 11:47 PM.


#209 Nikephoros

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 09:29 AM

View Postd_fens, on 06 March 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:

Let's just delete all gear except Berserker, delete defense and tactics trait lines and make all boss encounters HB,HB,dodge,WW, HB,HB.....

All pro zerker warriors (and their pro time warp bots) will be happy and scrubs can go farm penitent/shelter with their hammer condition builds and stay away from dungeons. No more build wars on forums, yay!

ANet needs to do some serious rebalancing of both dungeon encounters and traits/skills/gear to keep their game interesting. Zerging all bosses with GS war team will eventually bore even the hardest CoF1 farmers.

When you stop using the karka shell earring you can tell us about what the right kind of gear to use is.

Edited by Nikephoros, 07 March 2013 - 09:30 AM.


#210 d_fens

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 02:09 PM

View PostNikephoros, on 07 March 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

When you stop using the karka shell earring you can tell us about what the right kind of gear to use is.
1) Last time I checked, I was not the one telling everyone their gear/trait setup is crap and that they shall go all zerker to not slow their PUG.
2) I already explained why I use karka earring and I'm not going to repeat myself. What gear I use is none of your business unless you invite me into CoF1 farming group and do a gear check, but I don't see that happening in near future ;D. I might be driving small Citroen C3, but still recommend others to buy Ferrari Enzo, right?
3) You didn't catch sarcasm in my last post, did you? Forgive me that hammer condition build pun :D
4) I have the feeling alot of posts on warrior forum evolve into rather fiery arguments. I got myself drawn into them and now I regret it. Let's chill out ladies and gentlemen. This is a MMO game, not olympic competition.

Gonna get myself a beer and run CoF1 with hammer build (no, not condition one :D). Peace!





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