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[BUILD] Conditions damage High Survivability + CC Fractal/Dungeon runner - P/P(S)|Grenades|Bombs|Elixir Gun(FT/TK)


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#1 Lakvar

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 01:23 PM

Hi, fellas.

EDIT - OCTOBER 2013
For months I have used a 30-10-0-30-0 P/P build w/ 4x Altruism and 2x Water runes, Sigil of Battle & <random - bloodlust, corruption or peril (i have 2 offhand pistols + shield and switch out once i have some stacks)), Rampager gear, Givers weapons and Ascended accessories (a few celestial that i haven't cared to replace, the rest is berserker).
Traits are V-X-XI / V or VI / II - X - XI
As I said, I use P/P, Med Kit (or turret), Elixir B, <*>, Grenades.

* can be Rocket Boots when roaming, Elixir U most fractals (30-40+), Bomb Kit, etc etc

Use Koi Cakes for damage or 20% Boon Duration food (+MF) when you don't want to be optimized and others in party not stacking might.

Can maintain 25 stacks of might in combat + perma Fury. Damage is good, vulnerability stacking - max, I have perma swiftness and great condition removals and a good deal of cripple / immobilize / blind to assist party members. I rarely die, whether in this or My alternate zerker set.

The post below remains unedited, so that the thread posts are still relevant.

----------------------


I thought to share the build I have been using lately to great personal satisfaction.

I had my level 80 engineer a week after Launch and have played him, with various builds and gear setups, on and off for five months.
I have leveled and geared several other toons and have played pure condition builds on Mesmer and Thief, but consider this profession my default.



Further, I hope this is useful to someone, I apologize for the train of consciousness write-up (I posted on a whim) and I apologize if someone's already posted a similar build - there's nothing innovative here, I simply wanted to share my experience as an engineer and how I get to feel a high contributing member in parties I am in, whether an all-star guild group or a pug.



0. GENERAL

I find that this build hits on a lot of the requirements to be a useful party member, while remaining a high condition damage spec. I gain:

- Good to High survivability
- High crowd control / mob stacking
- Very good healing, some party healing / condition removal
- Very good condition damage, low but sustained normal damage
- The feel-good gut feeling of explotions

Cons:
- This isn't a build for the lazy-fingered (example: Mbtn6-5-`-5-3-Q-4-Mbtn4-2-5-E-5-2-4-3-Z-3-Mbtn3-4-2-`-3-Mbtn5-Mbtn6-5-1) etc would be an example rotation of my bindings for the off-cooldown abilities, while WASD-ing around)

I. GEAR
The upside here is that gear is relatively cheap, even if only acquirable for gold (and not karma or dungeon tokens).

The setup I have been going with is:
Full Apothecary set for armor (+Toughness +Healing +Condition damage) EDIT: or Rabid (+Prec +Tough +CD)
Full Chrysocola accessories (+Power +Condition damage +Vitality)

(similar toughness/CD ascended rings/amulet)

I use Power/Toughness/Healing or P/T/CD Dual pistols + Shield

Superior Rune of the Undead - the cheap go-to for every CD build.
Superior Sigil of Earth - Chance to bleed on crit
Superior Sigil of Bloodlust(or a major one, for 1000% decrease in price) - +10 power stack per enemy kill.

I will allow that you can go with a different gear setup, but the other easily available combination is Prec/Tough/CD and I'd take healing over Precision in this case.

II. BUILD

<< LINK >>

I will briefly justify trait choices.

Explosions (+30% Condition duration +300 Power)

Shrapnel - at 15% flat chance to cause bleed, together with Sigil of Earth, this allows you to up your bleed stack considerably if you're playing it safe from range and just lobbing grenades.

Grenadier - a self-explanatory necessity for playing a grenade heavy build, it ups your condition potential considerably and puts you in situations where you can abuse the range only you'll have.

Forceful explosions - necessary for playing with Bomb Kit - the increased area radius allows you to dance around mobs, hit more at once and not get hit back as often.

Firearms (+200 Precision +200 Condition damage)

Hair trigger - For my playstyle, I typically switch between 3 kits, only popping to pistol to use Static Shot, Blowtorch off cooldown and Glue Shot when called for. This trait more or less guarantees they fit well in my rotation or are ready when needed.

Napalm specialist - This gives my burns an additional 20% duration, for a total of 50% - and I tend to use Fire Bomb and Blowtorch off cooldown.

however, can be switched with

Precise Sights - 50% chance to cause vulnerability on crit. The reason I do not opt for this trait is my crit chance is pretty low, I use Fumigate already and on boss encounters, I am already using Depleted Power Crystals to keep vulnerability. (see WoodenPotatoes video)

Alchemy (+200 Vitality  +20% Boon duration)

Blood Injection or Invigorating Speed or Self-Regulating Defences
This one is up to you. I tend to sometimes play a little reckless, diving into large packs of mobs after I've opened with Immobilize/Chill and Elixir S has saved me. Blood Injection is a small damage boost. Invigorating Speed is alright, but doesn't synergize much with anything - however, I try to use Drop Stimulant off cooldown, so that's 6 sec of extra vigor every 20, not counting on swiftness from your party members.

Backpack Regenerator
Since I spend most time in a kit and this ticks for some 140 HP constantly, not counting a regeration buff, it suits me well and means I get to play it a little bit more on the line and less careful. A constant HP ticker is nothing to scoff at.

Why this and not that:
To be perfectly frank, this build can live off the 30 points in Explosions alone.
Everything else is superficial - a dps or survivability addition and how I prefer to play it and whether you pick one thing or another, it would not change the playstyle.

While I have on +Healing and +Toughness armor, I find the Inventions line rather underwhelming. I use shield only situationally, when I have to stay at range and there's something to reflect/block or as a #4 CC to group mobs. Turrets.. sure.. underwater! Bonuses to this stat or that are superficial and the Bomb Explosions Heal will only net me some 160-80, which is not worth the investment.

Tools are a fantastic trait line for burst / pure damage built, but does little for a condition build.

So logic dictates I go Alchemy - which gives you a nice HP boost, constant healing in Kit almost equal to that of Bomb Explosions Heal and an Oh-* PvE escape.


IV. PLAYSTYLE

This is intended as mostly a fractal/dungeon build.

I believe that when it comes to Party Utility, boons & healing only make one side of the coin, while CC and allowing your party to deal more (aoe) damage quicker while denying mobs to get to them is equally if not more impotant.

Keep in mind that while bosses can't be knocked about (and down), they can be chilled, crippled and immobilized like any mob and engineers can do this better than most, turning encounters far easier.  

I centre my rotation around using my Condition skills off cooldown and trying to keep multiple mobs CC-ed and stacked together.
You have 3 skills that are fantastic for that (four, if you decide to use Toolkit).
Glue Shot - Freeze Grenade - Glue bomb - (Box of Nails).

For example, I'd open with Glue Shot into Static Shot, Freeze - Shrapnel - Poison grenades, Glue Bomb, Fire-Concussion-Smoke bombs, Box of Nails / Fumigate+Acid Bomb - Back to start of rotation. A Big 'Ol Bomb + Barrage in there, though the former canbreak your stacking (but can alternatively be used to stack if mobs are apart).

If you have another member of your party to help you with that, for example, a guardian, you can aim to keep all mobs in the same position, all the time and speed your kill time significantly.

This build has absolutely no interest in fighting single target, because the same number of conditions and damage you deal to one mob, you can deal to all if they are together.

There are plenty of Bleed grenadiers, but the thing about bleed is - it is the most common condition. If you have one warrior, thief, necro, etc. in your party, chances are you'll already be topping 25 stacks of bleeding on the mob (not to mention, it can easily be done via consumable as mentioned above).

Focus instead on applying all conditions together, without discriminating. Engineer can apply up to 10 stacks of Confusion (tip: use on Ice Fractal Boss just before he teleports up for instant gratification), constant poison, constant burning, high vulnerability stacks and then, maxed stacks of bleeding (I'd also use scale Venom for weakness). All the while, you'll upkeep constant low damage via 1-1.5k grenade and bomb spam.
You can take hits that your less tanky friends won't be able to survive and your HP pool and healing capabilities are probably higher than theirs if they aren't specialized into healing.

Always be aware of which mobs have your aggro and how you can best group and immobilize them with others - whether by LoS, Big 'Ol Bomb, Flamethrower #3, Shield #4, etc. This is your function within the group as in most parties very few plaers care to do the job and would just settle for gunning them down one by one.

Elixir Guns increases your party utility with healing and condition removal field (Super Elixir) and regeneration + vulnerability stacks, so I'd usually use that over Flamethrower (low damage, just Burning stack, one CC) or Tool Kit (a bit of a dps increase, stacking, block, aoe cripple).

P.S. As a proof of concept, yesterday, I ran 7 consequtive fractals 16+ by using the above-described style, dps-ing every mob and boss at range and in melee and not being downed once (other than dodging off a cliff backwards instead of foward, after stopping to brag in /p about that very fact). So.. this setup works for me better than a lot of others. Of course - props to a good party.

Edited by Lakvar, 24 October 2013 - 01:22 PM.


#2 Coren

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 01:42 PM

interesting ideas, but I have to ask you. Are you really as effective than using only one kit? I'm part of.the "1 kit per.role" engineer demographic, and so always build my skills around that. I understand the idea of using your most powerful skills from grenade and bomb kit for.the.condition spike, but I have tried such a thing in the past, and I always felt like I.spread myself too thin compared to if I just took elixirs and maybe a gadget to support my party.

How is your survivability and party support compared to an elixir tosser when you use elixir gun?

I may one day try multi kits to fill multiple.roles, but so far I had much success in my philosophy.

#3 Thaddeuz

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 02:02 PM

The link send us to what seem to be another build. You describes a 30/20/0/20/0 build, but the link present us a 30/20/0/10/10 build.

I never tried this kind of Build. It seem really nice when you talk about it, but i see two point that i don't like.

View PostLakvar, on 07 February 2013 - 01:23 PM, said:

- Very good healing, some party healing / condition removal

Are you saying that the Healing power is mainly for you, with just a little bit of Party healing? If this is the case, there is no point in going into Healing Power at all.

View PostLakvar, on 07 February 2013 - 01:23 PM, said:

- High condition damage, low but sustained normal damage

Not really. You have medium condition damage and low direct damage.

- Rabid is the High Condition Damage (Big Cond. Dmg Number, with Precision to proc them) with low direct damage (precision but no power)
- Rampager is good Condition Damage (Normal Cond. Dmg Number, with High Precision to proc them) with good direct damage (got power and precision)
- Carrion is good Condition Damage (Big Cond. Dmg Number, but no precision to proc them) with medium direct damage (still got power)
- Apothecary is Good Suvriability, Great Healing but average Condition damage.


To be clear, i don't question your playstyle, your traits, or your skills choice. I question, your gear choice. You gonna have similar survivability with Rabid gear (and a bit of Carrion is you want more HP) with high condition damage. You still gonna have the same CC and Condition Removal, but gonna miss not much in the Party Healing capacity.

If you want to keep Apothercary's gear you may want to change your Elixir B to a Med Kit which is better for Party Healing. But, if you move higher in Fractal you gonna see, that mobs gonna one shot you anyway, and you may as well have more DPS. Otherwise its a great playstyle.

#4 Mura

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 02:12 PM

@Lakvar The build you linked has Elixir R in it instead of grenade kit.  You didn't mention Elixir R in your text so maybe this is a mistake?

I don't mind playing more than 1 kit on my engineer, but 3 certainly does keep you busy at the keyboard.  In the build I settled on for pvp, I had 2 kits.

Doesn't BoB  annoy your group with the knockback?  I found myself avoiding using it in pve and wvw groups for the most part.  It was great for solo work, spvp point defense, and running away.

Edited by Mura, 07 February 2013 - 02:13 PM.


#5 GammaWolf

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 04:06 PM

I agree that rabid gear is better for condi builds.

Healing power is not that great and apothecary gear is insanely expensive and difficult to obtain.

#6 FoxBat

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:42 PM

If you aren't doing 15+ bleeds just forget about condition damage stat. Burning + poison alone is a pittance compared to what power does for your weapons. Confusion is also all but crap in PvE because mobs attack every 2-3 seconds or slower. You might as well use them if you have them, but it's not going to save you from bleed capping sucking, nor should you trade much bleeds for them. (burning is roughly 5-6 bleeds, poison 2-3, and I would estimate confusion at roughly 1.)

Edited by FoxBat, 08 February 2013 - 01:12 AM.


#7 Lakvar

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 10:05 AM

Hey guys, thanks for comments.

I linked the "correct" build - I must've had several open when I did it at work.

As suggested, I will reconsider my gear choices. The original idea was to see if a Healing/Toughness/Vit engineer can be made and still do good damage.

Quote

Are you really as effective than using only one kit?
Part of the reason I like playing this is exactly all the CC. You're right, sometimes I have hard time going between all skills, but I tend to think this is the Engineer's not-so-hidden power, like a slightly nerf-ed elementalist - you always have a powerful ability off-cooldown. I have no problem keeping up with just bombs and grenades + pistols and the elixir gun can take a back role simply as support for Toolbelt Regen and Super elixir or, if you want, replace it.

Quote

How is your survivability and party support compared to an elixir tosser when you use elixir gun?
My survivability is great, though to be fair, I have never been one to die too much. Compared to my other professions, though, I feel much more in control of not dying to random shit or being afraid to commit to melee range when there's more than a few mobs. Utility mainly comes from what Elixir Gun offers and the aforementioned CC off cooldown.

Quote

Doesn't BoB  annoy your group with the knockback?  I found myself avoiding using it in pve and wvw groups for the most part.  It was great for solo work, spvp point defense, and running away.
Not at all. You just have to not drop it indiscriminately - put it on the side or the back of a pack of mobs so they all get pushed in the same direction. Or next to a downed member before going to res. Finally, if you drop BoB and immobilize just before explosion, it works out that nobody moves an inch!

Quote

If you want to keep Apothercary's gear you may want to change your Elixir B to a Med Kit which is better for Party Healing.
I have always used the medkit and unless an elixir tossing or might stacking build flamethrower build etc, I have never switched out since the start. The link was wrong.

Quote

if you move higher in Fractal you gonna see, that mobs gonna one shot you anyway
I'm making my way up to 30 now and if so, will have to amend my playstyle.

Quote

If you aren't doing 15+ bleeds just forget about condition damage stat.
You're basically saying the only viable condition build is grenade spammer, which is what i had been playing since day 1 anyway.
I normally manage about 9-10 stacks on veteran mob packs by myself going through my normal rotation and as for bosses, I already said - I don't bother with counting my bleed stacks, as I am supplementing them (or abusing, if you prefer) with Depleted Power Crystals. That doesn't disprove your point since not everyone will bother but as I said - chances are you won't be the only condition based player in the party and that bleed will stack up to cap. If not, you can always just toss the boring grenades to keep up your bleed and just bother about the occasional burn.
Confusion might suck but it's a 2 sec cast and comes with extra damage/blind.

#8 Coren

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 03:56 PM

View PostLakvar, on 08 February 2013 - 10:05 AM, said:

Hey guys, thanks for comments.

I linked the "correct" build - I must've had several open when I did it at work.

As suggested, I will reconsider my gear choices. The original idea was to see if a Healing/Toughness/Vit engineer can be made and still do good damage.


Part of the reason I like playing this is exactly all the CC. You're right, sometimes I have hard time going between all skills, but I tend to think this is the Engineer's not-so-hidden power, like a slightly nerf-ed elementalist - you always have a powerful ability off-cooldown. I have no problem keeping up with just bombs and grenades + pistols and the elixir gun can take a back role simply as support for Toolbelt Regen and Super elixir or, if you want, replace it.

First off: I like.running a power/vitality/conditions damage build with some toughness thrown in. Keeps me alive while still giving the constant conditions pain I'm supposed to be delivering.

Also, you must be great at games like guitar hero, I'd ever be able to switch that often.

#9 FoxBat

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 12:04 PM

This thread actually prompted me to try adding a bit of bombing to a grenade build, and the results aren't too bad. It might cost you a bleed stack here and there, but spending just 2 seconds to get perma burn (with 90% condi duration) as well as some confusion stacks is pretty cool. Since you're up close, you can get inside your foe and flip back to grenades to trigger the kit refinement (similar to 100 nades style) to more than make up for any bleed/vuln lost on the autoattack spam. And then of course you have the blind, glue, and big ol bombs for group CC when needed. You can also use the fire or smoke fields to pull off the usual combo blast tricks a dedicated bomb build is known for (BoB, detonate healing turret, magnetic shield, etc.) Bomb is also a bit nicer when you hit one of those stupid condition immune objects.

Flipping to the pistol for a second to fire confusion/blind at groups while waiting on shrapnel to recharge is hard to argue with as well. Still, I basically play it as a grenade spam build with these other conditions as a sideshow, but it's both a way more entertaining sideshow and arguably useful as well, particularly versus group trash. (and you can easily flip a skill and trait before heading into a boss)

Nonetheless I always ask in parties if there's another dedicated condition guy, and I always swap to a power build if there is. You can dodge a few random bleeds from power specs by focusing on burn/confusion a bit more, but when two condi guys get in a party, at least one of them will be sucking.

Edited by FoxBat, 11 February 2013 - 12:07 PM.


#10 DeAlchymist

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 10:47 AM

This build is insanely weak, man. I'm in your gear, your entire layout, and everything else posted in your gear selection and the conditions are just so, so low that they make me giggle.

Let me do a quick math round: I was able to get up to 1600 condition damage, unbuffed, which is relatively HIGH (TOO HIGH). The problem was, around 1050-1100 condi damage, I noticed that dot damage barely changed. For instance, at 1100 condi damage I'm doing around 105-115 per dot, at 1600 I was doing around 125-130 which leads me to believe that I hit a very hard DR (diminishing return) somewhere between those numbers which would make condition based damage even more unattractive.

The condition aspect of this build doesn't even stand a chance against condi necromancer builds and tbh, this build seems to ride on high hopes that you don't end up playing with another condition based build/class and that's just not happening given to how popular necromancer are. Honestly, why anyone is playing an Engineer outside of power based builds given their current handicap is just plain naive. Final stats were 2735 attack (3.6k with 25 stacks of might/25 BL), a whopping 1600 condition damage (again, way too much), 25% precision, 2.6k toughness w/o Juggernaut, almost 3k w/ Juggernaut, no crit burst %, and 23.5k hp. You'd think this build would be at least decent, but, you're wrong. Your build seems to be trying to play like a back-up tank/anchor with condi damage going out at hasty rates and that's not going to happen given the large amount of mob harassment you're going to receive from your pretty decent toughness attribute OR simply playing against glass-cannon party members who don't even have a fraction of your toughness. If you play this build anything like me or how I assume you would've play this build, you'll have aggro 1/3 of the time over the main anchor/tank and you're kiting more than you'd like.

Edited by DeAlchymist, 09 July 2013 - 01:56 PM.


#11 DeAlchymist

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 01:36 PM

I've spent hours reforming this build to maintain its original flavor, whatever that was, by tweaking crit chance, dps and maintaining high condition damage at the same time.

You lose about 150 toughness but you should maintain around 2100-2200 toughness easily with the set-up I've tweaked from this build. I'm holding a 45% crit chance (10% with target the maimed = 55% at target's 50% hp), 1140 condition damage(1210 with food) and 3k attack unbuffed (4.2k with 25 might/25 BL) with 22k hp and 2112 toughness. I'm bold enough to say that this is probably the best Engineer build I've slapped together. That being said, credit goes to this build for being the influence on the idea.

~Full Rampager main pieces (chest, shoulder, gloves, pants, boots, helm)
~Full Chrysocola misc. pieces (jewels, accessories, gems, etc) albeit full Berserker trinkets with Ruby Orbs will net you about 2-4% dps gain.
You'd be around 56-66% crist burst damage, and 50% crit chance with around 3.1k-3.2k attack unbuffed and 19k hp. (Berserker choice.)
The current rune trend for Engineer(s) are x4 Altruism runes and x2 Water runes for 55% boon duration and a plethora of other boons that will buff your party based on kits/healing ability swappage and usage.

I'm not a big fan of Giver weapons and the reason why is simple: They are utterly underwhelming in PvE (not so much PvP with condi duration/stacking builds). With a food buff, you can tote 70% condition up-time and 70 precision. You lose 20% condi duration (down from 90%) but given how conditions work with Engi and if you' be running with another condi player, I'd say Giver wep's are meh and would totally ♥♥♥♥-block other condi builds in your group.

Instead, I run double Carrion (Power/Vit/Condi Damage). If you're squeamish with hp, or if that was the reason for this build; to mix survivability with offensive capabilities, I run this current set-up with 22k hp.

You might also want to check out the 30/10/0/20/10 build. You lose a small amount of crit but if you take the Berserker route I mentioned above, you'd easily hit around 70% crit burst damage while maintaining around 50% crit chance.

Edited by DeAlchymist, 09 July 2013 - 01:39 PM.


#12 Plyte

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 02:10 PM

The thing is,  you should never label a fractals build as "High survivability".  You need damage, and theres a couple spots (particularly the grawl fractal) where you will simply become a massive burden to the group if you cannot contribute direct damage.  

Also not a fan of ever giving up perma-vigor,

#13 coglin

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 02:11 AM

I am seeing a lot of xxxx toughness, that is too high for the gear mentioned, are you sure you don't mean "armor"?




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