69 replies to this topic

[Ingway]

Back before i stoped playing the game that didn't semm to be much of a problem, hardly saw groups asking for a specific combination of classes, now that i came back most of the time is see people asking mostly for a party consisting of a mesmer, warriors and guardians only...

What's with that? Is the DPS from other classes really that MUCH inferior to say a warrior and guardian and usefulness of a mesmer? All of then are indeed useful (a little too much IMO, first skill a warrior gets basically gives him a eternal + 3 might stack), but is that really enough to downplay other classes and make then less required for dungeon runs?

Edited by Ingway, 07 February 2013 - 04:29 PM.

[Trei]

Start your own group.
LFM except mesmers guardians and warriors.

That'll show em.

[Waar Kijk Je Naar]

Yeah, any classes dps pales in comparison to a Warrior, and Guardians and Mesmers can make themselves useful in a variety of ways. Other professions...well not so much. For example Elementalist versatility means nothing if none of your attunements deal proper damage.

[Ingway]

Trei, on 07 February 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

Start your own group.
LFM except mesmers guardians and warriors.

That'll show em.

I get you are most likely joking, but i imagine doing something like that would just cement the whole deal even further.

[Al Shamari]

One word: fractals. It plagued the mentality of players and we saw the worst come to rise.

[Butr0sButr0s]

I just ignore them. I'm actually a little grateful, I wouldn't want to group with someone that plays in such a condescending manner anyway, so this lets me weed them out before we get started.

I've run fractals with a bunch of groups (as a mesmer) and have never found a combination that was bad.  My favorite run was actually 5 mesmers, so many clones on the screen!

[Hex65000]

I was just gonna go with people are lazy.

They found something that works pretty good regardless of skill level, and figure that has to be the answer to everything. There's a guildie who is running a glass cannon warrior and I get sooooo tired of picking them up. We were failing AC3 so badly that he swapped to his engineer (which he's quite good with) and like magic, we nuked the rest of the dungeon without any problems.

My opinion: Some folks saw this thing on the Internetz and decided that is the only way to do it. No thinking required at all. I don't view damage as king.

Edit: spelling fix.

Hex.
[ Did the destroyer troll with 6 other people today, and we rocked it solid... ]

Edited by Hex65000, 07 February 2013 - 05:24 PM.

[Heart Collector]

It's wannabe hardcore, crappy players who want to be carried with as little effort as possible on their behalf. They are using the excuse of "optimizing the group" with what is perceived as the currently most effective classes to achieve this.

You wouldn't want to group with these people anyway so consider their advertising their crappiness a public service

[Darkobra]

I'm a strong believer that a class doesn't matter but the player behind them. You could have someone inexperienced play a warrior. You could also have a master play a necromancer. You'll notice a significant difference between them. I'm happy to take any class. Every single person, every single class has their strengths and weaknesses. They have their play styles and mentalities.

In fact, I'm far less likely to take anyone that says "You need this class and you need this build because the wiki said so." Yet I've made some of the strongest elementalist builds in GW1 simply from days and weeks of trial, error and tweaking. It's how new things are discovered. The first person to create the "norm" was someone like me. Then everyone jumped on that bandwagon and considered it a "must have" while that person is looking for something else to improve upon.

Anyone that says you NEED this class will be utterly useless when things change and they're out of their comfort zone. Avoid those groups like the plague.

[EphraimGlass]

Darkobra, on 07 February 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:

Yet I've made some of the strongest elementalist builds in GW1 simply from days and weeks of trial, error and tweaking. It's how new things are discovered.

Unfortuntely, a lot of people don't want to be part of that process.  Too many people want players with the proven builds in their parties and don't care to "waste time" experimenting or tolerating somebody else in the party experimenting.  It's pretty sad because that perspective isn't necessary.  There's a whole spectrum of viewpoints ranging from "all video games are a waste of time" to "however you want to play is a legitimate choice, which nobody may criticize."  I lean toward the latter.  Nothing I'm doing in a video game is so important that I can't try something different - maybe even something *gasp* ineffective on any given day.  That means some days, I'm carrying the person who's trying something new and other days, I'm the one being carried.  And if it turns out that the "something new" is so ineffective that we can't complete the dungeon or whatever it is we were trying, no biggle.  The proven builds will always be there for when we decide we "must" beat that dungeon tonight.

[Ritualist]

Ingway, on 07 February 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

What's with that?

Poor PvE design.

[Zhaitan]

Darkobra, on 07 February 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:

I'm a strong believer that a class doesn't matter but the player behind them. You could have someone inexperienced play a warrior. You could also have a master play a necromancer. You'll notice a significant difference between them. I'm happy to take any class. Every single person, every single class has their strengths and weaknesses. They have their play styles and mentalities.

I agree to what you say overall but, class does matter when options of choosing classes exists. If I were to choose which classes I'd like to run with in a dungeon, guard, war, mes would always be ideal. Any group can murder any content in this game with these 3 classes playing together assuming the players know what to do with the classes. Does it mean other classes are worthless? Absolutely no. I found most of my fractals 30+ runs to be of better experience when I ran with a group that did not have any duplicate classes.

Ingway, on 07 February 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

... most of the time is see people asking mostly for a party consisting of a mesmer, warriors and guardians only...

What's with that?

For COF, warriors and mesmers can zoom thru it in 5 mins flat or less. I think you are seeing people spamming that on GW2lfg. For COE, melee rocks. For TA, that class combo wreck thru all paths in less than 70 mins. For AC, guards and wars kill it, having mes is just groovy. So, for some people who are trying to do fast money runs, having a group that delivers excellent defense combined with offense is always ideal. It's not driven by class bigotry but, by zeal to find the eziest route to success. It's all about optimization.

Best thing to do is LFM. You decide how to play that way. If you see you have 2 guards in your group, you may not choose to add any more guards. It beats me why people even do LFG. If you are unsure of how a dungeon needs to be run, do LFM and identify a leader in your group to guide you thru the content. Keep your eyes open so that next time, you can lead the pack thru it.

[chaosdude]

Bad balancing is something apparent in every MMO.  GW2 lack of a trinity does not mean it escapes from this.  Mesmers, guardians, and warriors are better suited and more useful in fractals than rangers, this is because of class balance.  It's at this point, nerfs and buffs start pouring in and FOTM start occuring, if not already.

[Tregarde]

As far as I'm concerned, if you can contribute to a group, and aren't an idiot, I don't care what profession you are playing.

Just for example, I was recently a group that consisted of 2 elementalists, 1 necromancer, 1 mesmer, and 1 thief. A couple in the group barely met the minimum level for the dungeon.

Hardly an idea group, right? And yet we kicked that dungeon's ass!

[Trei]

Ingway, on 07 February 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

I get you are most likely joking, but i imagine doing something like that would just cement the whole deal even further.

Heh, well...
I wasn't joking about the start your own group part.

[matsif]

basically it boils down to that combo gives you the best combination of survival (warrior hp, guardian boons/healing assuming shout AH build, mesmer has its own ways), dps (warrior extremely high sustained dps, guardian good dps, mesmer time warp and otherwise good dps), and group speed buffs to run through content fast.

personally my guild group rivals all the top speed numbers I've seen with 1 guardian, 1 warrior, and a selection including 1-2 mesmers, 1-2 eles, 1 necro, 1 engineer, and 1 ranger (much depending on what I decide to play because I have all classes but mesmer at 80), but we are an organized group with good communication.  A pug looks at it completely differently, and the "hardcore elitists" are always gonna run with the meta of "best class," which for a dungeon group right now consists of warriors, guardians, and mesmers.  assuming a buff to a different class comes along or a nerf to one of those main 3, it will probably change.

as Trei said, starting your own group is probably the best way, or get into a guild and find a group of people you can run with normally to avoid people who are too narrow minded to see what other classes can bring that, although the run might take 5 minutes longer, might make it a smoother run overall.

[Lunacy Polish]

Really?   People sometimes spam for specific classes but since I only do AC runs for the money (I hate the dungeons they are all dumb but that is where the money is) I do not pay as much attention.   But seriously?   I know the dungeons are poorly thought out "Nintendo hard" speed run challenges and things go wrong sometimes especially when you are new to that dungeon.   But once you get past the growing pains you can do it with 5 of anything.

I know fractals are a different beast but come on the sub level 10 fractals didn't seem much different.  Yeah there is a learning curve to knowing what is in each fractal but it is the same thing otherwise.

MMO PvE content just sucks.  GW2 makes it interesting in spots but the very idea you "need" certain classes is goofy.

Heck my best PVE experiences are usually when you get 5 different classes together.  I don't need another warrior around as much as I need someone who can throw some AE or some boons I don't have or some combo fields or something.   Anything different it doesn't matter.  Bring an ellie to summon ice bows.  Or a ranger with a bear, you want a "tank" the 40k hitpoint bear has more hp than any PC and no repair bill when it dies.  Even a power necro w@@hich is superficially similar to me brings things I don't have.

But whatever I have done low level fractals and other dungeons with 4 thieves and little warrior me.  It just does not matter.

[FoxBat]

Lunacy Polish, on 08 February 2013 - 02:41 PM, said:

Really?   People sometimes spam for specific classes but since I only do AC runs for the money (I hate the dungeons they are all dumb but that is where the money is) I do not pay as much attention.

That's all people do CoF runs for, and yeah, they want 4 warriors + 1 mesmer always. If you really hate dungeons but do them anyway, I'd consider picking the easiest, fastest route that gets them over with quicker. At least it shouldn't be hard to understand the mindset from your position.

[Verene]

The only place I see that sort of thing for is CoF...which really, five minute speed runs are great and all, but when you're doing it that fast you're just really shooting yourself in the foot as you're going to hit DR immediately.

They can be done in any group combination, and done well. My guild did a CoF run the other day that was all rangers, and it took about 14 minutes to complete. Not a five minute warrior/guardian/mesmer speedrun, but still damn fast, it was a ton of fun, and we didn't get DR. When I'm forming dungeon groups, I care more about if my group members are comfortable with their profession and playing something they want to play, not if they are a specific profession.

[Coren]

Also helps that warriors and guardians are really easy to use compared to other professions

[beadnbutter32]

The trinity is dead, all hail the trinity, yada yada.

While there may be some kernal of truth to those 3 classes being the most consistent and fast dungeon clearers, once you have the slightest basis of fact, monkey see monkee do takes over.

The know it all wise guy types see one such LF posting and copy it, and the snowball is in motion.

Due to the twitch based combat, squishy classes require more attention to play consistently, so they are the first and most frequent to die in dungeon runs.

That and poor class design of all but the new trinity, yields classes that bring little of consequence to dungeon groups.  The new trinity are the three classes with the most synergy with teams.  The other classes each may have a skill or two that synergize in teams, but nowhere near the degree of the new trinity.

Edited by beadnbutter32, 09 February 2013 - 12:56 PM.

[Verelia]

Aside from the HoM rewards I can't really think of a single "promise" that Anet actually kept for GW 2 now

[Eon Lilu]

Verelia, on 09 February 2013 - 02:06 PM, said:

Aside from the HoM rewards I can't really think of a single "promise" that Anet actually kept for GW 2 now

Give it time

[Butcher]

One thing I don't understand: nobody asks for engineers, even though they have some of the best group support skills and utilities in the game. Then again, I'm sure this is also due to the shortage of engineers. It can get boring only having 4 possible weapon combinations. But hell! The kits are freakin cool!

[Cube]

Honestly, I don't really feel this is a problem. I don't have a problem getting into a CoF run with a class that is not a mes, guard or war. Thought guard is my fav profession, and I also have a mesmer, so I can always join them if I want. But that's me, I like having more than one profession cause I prefer being able to change to something else if one team set up doesn't work.

These people want to do these runs quick, and mesmers, warriors and a guard is really good for just that, to get things done quickly. I get that it can be annoying, but this is how these people wanna play.

I think that regardless how much they wanted to make this game a 'profession doesn't matter' type, I think that's just how it's going to be. People find ways of combining professions and skills to do things really quickly, so other professions are going to be left out. Either you join these runs by lvling a char that can, or you join the teams that aren't doing it with that set up.

[Nabuko Darayon]

My suggestion, don't bother with those groups . Shouldn't even be worth mentioning as their just a fraction of groups that are formed. like from all the grouping I do, I come across less then 5% on a group asking for some of those specifications.

Same thing goes for "fast" AC runs with lvl 80's only and whatnot people just too lazy to work on a team and want drones

[Senatic]

I love how arrogant people are thinking everyone who asks for a specific class for a specific task must be an elitist. As if that's the only possible explanation. It couldn't possibly be that their specific requirements are a result of the task requiring of it. Obviously they all do it because they're just *s.

How ignorant can you be. Please kids, grow up. If someone wants to do a CoF speedfarm there is one way that is the most efficient. How can you blame people for wanting to do it efficiently. If you need to blame anyone maybe you should start with ArenaNet, they are the ones who are balancing these classes after all.

Don't blame the players for playing the game the way that's most efficient. Also if some guy wants to run a party with only Mesmers that is his own buisness. I don't see why his choices of teammates are any less valuable then any of yours.

[ViM]

This game is ruled by Warriors and Guardians. Every other class exists only to make Warriors and Guardians look good.

[cyclopsje]

Never had a problem like that. Just lucky i guess, guess it helps i start groups mostly and i accept all classes.

[Coren]

To be honest I have never been in a party that told me "Hey engineer, switch to something useful or we kick you", or something similar.

Yes, Guardians and Warriors are easy to use and are powerful, but other classes are just as good in my opinion, and most give you a chance to prove it.