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What's with all the pickyness of classes?


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#31 Jetjordan

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 06:16 PM


From the wiki:  The aggro table of a hostile NPC changes dynamically depending on a number of factors, in order of importance
  • closest target to them
  • who is dealing damage
  • top damage dealers
  • who is using a shield / has more toughness and overall armor
  • others (see Tanking tactics below)
I maintained the aggro of the plinx event chain end boss champion for the entire fight the other day as my ranger spec'ed for condition damage SB/WH/torch.  There were TONS of people at the fight, and plenty of thieves  guardians, and warriors.  I was kiting like crazy but he always came back to me even though there were literally 40 other targets around.  So I was either doing more damage and/or as tough as everyone around me.... as a ranger.  I was also in a 6 min CoF run the other day as my ranger.  There was a necro and an ele in the group as well, so not all Warriors and one Mesmer like people claim is the best/only way to do it.

View PostViM, on 09 February 2013 - 05:49 PM, said:

This game is ruled by Warriors and Guardians. Every other class exists only to make Warriors and Guardians look good.

They are just the easiest to play well.  I have a Guardian.

#32 BartenderMan

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 06:40 PM

View PostSenatic, on 09 February 2013 - 03:43 PM, said:

I love how arrogant people are thinking everyone who asks for a specific class for a specific task must be an elitist. As if that's the only possible explanation. It couldn't possibly be that their specific requirements are a result of the task requiring of it. Obviously they all do it because they're just *s.

How ignorant can you be. Please kids, grow up. If someone wants to do a CoF speedfarm there is one way that is the most efficient. How can you blame people for wanting to do it efficiently. If you need to blame anyone maybe you should start with ArenaNet, they are the ones who are balancing these classes after all.

Don't blame the players for playing the game the way that's most efficient. Also if some guy wants to run a party with only Mesmers that is his own buisness. I don't see why his choices of teammates are any less valuable then any of yours.

Since when has playing games been about efficiency? Playing games is about having fun, and if you force people to think/play in the way you want them to it is no longer fun.

So what if you can clear CoF in 5 minutes? How is that even remotely enjoyable?

I personally enjoy playing with all types of compositions and builds because it keeps everything fresh and interesting. Even if it does take an extra 10-15 minutes, at least it's fun.

And asking us to "grow up" and "blame Anet" is possibly the most childish thing you could possibly say in this situation. We're looking to have fun with the game, not turn it into Diablo 3.

#33 Craywulf

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 06:51 PM

View PostProtoss, on 07 February 2013 - 05:55 PM, said:

Poor PvE design.
LOL funny! Let me guess you're one those who discriminate professions. Bet you're fun to play with :rolleyes:

#34 moomooo1

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 07:00 PM

View PostJetjordan, on 09 February 2013 - 06:16 PM, said:


From the wiki:  The aggro table of a hostile NPC changes dynamically depending on a number of factors, in order of importance
  • closest target to them

  • who is dealing damage

  • top damage dealers

  • who is using a shield / has more toughness and overall armor

  • others (see Tanking tactics below)
I maintained the aggro of the plinx event chain end boss champion for the entire fight the other day as my ranger spec'ed for condition damage SB/WH/torch.  There were TONS of people at the fight, and plenty of thieves  guardians, and warriors.  I was kiting like crazy but he always came back to me even though there were literally 40 other targets around.  So I was either doing more damage and/or as tough as everyone around me.... as a ranger.  I was also in a 6 min CoF run the other day as my ranger.  There was a necro and an ele in the group as well, so not all Warriors and one Mesmer like people claim is the best/only way to do it.


They are just the easiest to play well.  I have a Guardian.

Is this the abomination at the end of the event chain? It's notorious for choosing one person only. Like you could do nothing but kite and it would still go for you. A common gripe is when this "fixated" person goes back into the outpost to sell and it drags the abomination too far in, then into leash range and lots of "invulnerable" text shows up. Makes some people QQ.

Not trying to discredit your damage though! Just thought it wouldn't be the best example :) I've run with a guildie before who has rocking damage on his ranger :D

#35 Cures

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 07:23 PM

View Postmoomooo1, on 09 February 2013 - 07:00 PM, said:

Is this the abomination at the end of the event chain? It's notorious for choosing one person only. Like you could do nothing but kite and it would still go for you. A common gripe is when this "fixated" person goes back into the outpost to sell and it drags the abomination too far in, then into leash range and lots of "invulnerable" text shows up. Makes some people QQ.

Not trying to discredit your damage though! Just thought it wouldn't be the best example :) I've run with a guildie before who has rocking damage on his ranger :D

what he said, abdomination aggro has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with class, dmg or skill :)

#36 Darkobra

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 08:54 PM

View PostSenatic, on 09 February 2013 - 03:43 PM, said:

I love how arrogant people are thinking everyone who asks for a specific class for a specific task must be an elitist. As if that's the only possible explanation. It couldn't possibly be that their specific requirements are a result of the task requiring of it. Obviously they all do it because they're just *s.

How ignorant can you be. Please kids, grow up. If someone wants to do a CoF speedfarm there is one way that is the most efficient. How can you blame people for wanting to do it efficiently. If you need to blame anyone maybe you should start with ArenaNet, they are the ones who are balancing these classes after all.

Don't blame the players for playing the game the way that's most efficient. Also if some guy wants to run a party with only Mesmers that is his own buisness. I don't see why his choices of teammates are any less valuable then any of yours.

You talk about arrogance and efficiency in the same breath. Then you say that it's ArenaNet's fault that you refuse to take any other class to cater to your weaknesses. Also, less than.

#37 oni88

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 09:09 PM

View PostJetjordan, on 09 February 2013 - 06:16 PM, said:

I was also in a 6 min CoF run the other day as my ranger.  There was a necro and an ele in the group as well, so not all Warriors and one Mesmer like people claim is the best/only way to do it.
This. I have also been in many less than 10 minute runs (prob ~6/7 mins) with a mix of classes. And with time spent with contested dungeons + finding people of the right class, does 1-2 minutes really matter?

#38 Senatic

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 10:27 PM

View PostDarkobra, on 09 February 2013 - 08:54 PM, said:

You talk about arrogance and efficiency in the same breath. Then you say that it's ArenaNet's fault that you refuse to take any other class to cater to your weaknesses. Also, less than.

I don't even know what you're trying to say here. You gave no specific example and just randomly commented on some arbitrary situation without defining any parameters what so ever after which you abstractly insinuated a declaration of victory in an argument that didn't even take place.

If you have anything of actual relevance to say please say it and put the murky insinuations aside.

#39 Jetjordan

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 11:18 PM

I think what I really want to say is that 5 really skilled people are going to do better with the class that they prefer.  If you suck, then you will be a better heavy armor class profession since its WAY easier.  I rolled Ranger, Necro, ele, guardian.  It's easier to do damage with heavy armor cause you don't need to avoid damage as much.  BUT if you know how to avoid damage, there is more damage to dealt out there than the big boys(G/W) can deal.  Ask an epidemic necro paired with a condition ranger about melting mobs away.  Find me a Warrior/guardian pair than can do that kind of damage that fast.

[edit] I'm not saying people that play W/G suck.  I love my guardian.

Edited by Jetjordan, 09 February 2013 - 11:19 PM.


#40 AKGeo

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 11:24 PM

View PostJetjordan, on 09 February 2013 - 06:16 PM, said:


From the wiki:  The aggro table of a hostile NPC changes dynamically depending on a number of factors, in order of importance
  • closest target to them

  • who is dealing damage

  • top damage dealers

  • who is using a shield / has more toughness and overall armor

  • others (see Tanking tactics below)
I maintained the aggro of the plinx event chain end boss champion for the entire fight the other day as my ranger spec'ed for condition damage SB/WH/torch.  There were TONS of people at the fight, and plenty of thieves  guardians, and warriors.  I was kiting like crazy but he always came back to me even though there were literally 40 other targets around.  So I was either doing more damage and/or as tough as everyone around me.... as a ranger.  I was also in a 6 min CoF run the other day as my ranger.  There was a necro and an ele in the group as well, so not all Warriors and one Mesmer like people claim is the best/only way to do it.


They are just the easiest to play well.  I have a Guardian.

that specific champion I believe has something coded to it that picks a single player and just goes aggro on him the whole time regardless of all factors. It's happened to me a few times on my thief, and I've seen him go after many other players...and it was always different, noticed before the nerf when plinx was farmed consistently by the same groups of people. So I believe it's a random YOU! thing, and isn't indicative of the real aggro algorithm.

#41 Asha2012

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 11:34 PM

Of the many times I've done AC the easiest run we ever had was with a guardian, shatter mes (me), warrior, thief and healing ele.  One of my guildmates has equipped and traited his ele for healing and between my mes buff and our very talented senior guardian, we cruised through AC including Kohler.  In fact, it was the first time I went up against Kohler without even being downed, pulls and all.

So I can't speak to eles DPS but as a healer, they can rock.

#42 Darkobra

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 01:35 AM

View PostSenatic, on 09 February 2013 - 10:27 PM, said:

I don't even know what you're trying to say here. You gave no specific example and just randomly commented on some arbitrary situation without defining any parameters what so ever after which you abstractly insinuated a declaration of victory in an argument that didn't even take place.

If you have anything of actual relevance to say please say it and put the murky insinuations aside.

Really? I thought you just didn't proof-read. I never thought you never noticed it.

You want to better yourself. Fine. But then you want the most efficient party that bottlenecks most players to YOUR liking for the fastest possible run. You have the arrogance to tell others what to play and how to play it to make a 10 minute dungeon into a 5 minute one. Because it's "efficient."

THEN you say it's not your fault that you want the fastest run but ArenaNet's, completely ignoring that any dungeon can be defeated by any collection of classes played by competent players. In fact, your anger seems to have blinded you to these facts and you needed elaboration for a very simple point instead of thinking things through.

Calm yourself down. Don't let emotions get in the way of improvement. You'll see exactly what I see. Where you think "We should have taken a warrior, let's kick the necro," I think "I can easily win this with what we have and here's how." That is where the real divide between us is.

#43 Bryant Again

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 01:55 AM

View PostJetjordan, on 09 February 2013 - 06:16 PM, said:

From the wiki:  The aggro table of a hostile NPC changes dynamically depending on a number of factors, in order of importance
  • closest target to them

  • who is dealing damage

  • top damage dealers

  • who is using a shield / has more toughness and overall armor

  • others (see Tanking tactics below)
I maintained the aggro of the plinx event chain end boss champion for the entire fight the other day as my ranger spec'ed for condition damage SB/WH/torch.  There were TONS of people at the fight, and plenty of thieves  guardians, and warriors.  I was kiting like crazy but he always came back to me even though there were literally 40 other targets around.  So I was either doing more damage and/or as tough as everyone around me.... as a ranger.  I was also in a 6 min CoF run the other day as my ranger.  There was a necro and an ele in the group as well, so not all Warriors and one Mesmer like people claim is the best/only way to do it.


They are just the easiest to play well.  I have a Guardian.

http://www.guildwars...e__hl__ trinity

Rickter's reported plenty of success with a build that allows him to hold aggro much of the time. I don't remember if he's posted it in there but I recall he didn't have any qualms giving it to you in a PM if you asked.

Edited by Bryant Again, 10 February 2013 - 01:55 AM.


#44 Jetjordan

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 02:26 AM

View PostBryant Again, on 10 February 2013 - 01:55 AM, said:

http://www.guildwars...e__hl__ trinity

Rickter's reported plenty of success with a build that allows him to hold aggro much of the time. I don't remember if he's posted it in there but I recall he didn't have any qualms giving it to you in a PM if you asked.

Well, as many above have stated, the abomination thing is apparently a bug, I was kiting and attacking the whole time with Shortbow which allowed me to stay away from him.  I was just pointing out that Rangers can do a boatload of damage, an unwanted side effect of which is that I get aggro a lot.  Rangers can be super tanky too if you want to go for that.

#45 sanedude

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 03:01 AM

I'm a warrior, and im with you man. And i am warrior.

#46 Airwolf

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 03:19 AM

only 2 places where i favor certain party setups. Cof p1 (though i run it with a full guild party. we do not run it because it is fun so going in and out quickly is what makes it a bit bearable. and Arah p4 is just irritating at the dwayna part where you just NEED the dps. Ither than that, i do not give a damn about the party setup as long as the players are either good or listen to sugestions.

#47 lmaonade

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 09:17 AM

View PostSenatic, on 09 February 2013 - 03:43 PM, said:

I love how arrogant people are thinking everyone who asks for a specific class for a specific task must be an elitist. As if that's the only possible explanation. It couldn't possibly be that their specific requirements are a result of the task requiring of it. Obviously they all do it because they're just *s.

How ignorant can you be. Please kids, grow up. If someone wants to do a CoF speedfarm there is one way that is the most efficient. How can you blame people for wanting to do it efficiently. If you need to blame anyone maybe you should start with ArenaNet, they are the ones who are balancing these classes after all.

Don't blame the players for playing the game the way that's most efficient. Also if some guy wants to run a party with only Mesmers that is his own buisness. I don't see why his choices of teammates are any less valuable then any of yours.

QFT right here.

Usually I don't care about what classes people are when they join my party for most things as long as they can play and are nice/mild-mannered.
But if I'm about to go on a round of speed runs of CoF I'm going to take the most efficient party I can to save time, even if it's only a few minutes, you know why? Because my objective in speed runs isn't fun or messing around, it's results.

And what I hate the most are people who think they are taking the "moral highground" or w/e by condemning exclusive groups. What I want to do is what I want to do, no different from you. My guild never joins me for speed runs, because they think speed runs are stupid, and I respect that view, just don't try to tell me what to do. If exclusive groups aren't your cup of tea, then avoid them, they aren't ruining anyone's game and have no effect on you whatsoever.

#48 Mister Stygian

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 09:26 AM

Most of this elitism is in COF only right now and it is actually elitism to build and not just class.  Parties are looking for one party type only with set builds to maximize speed.   Pick another dungeon, and it probably won't come up.

#49 Senatic

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 12:10 PM

View PostDarkobra, on 10 February 2013 - 01:35 AM, said:

Really? I thought you just didn't proof-read. I never thought you never noticed it.

You want to better yourself. Fine. But then you want the most efficient party that bottlenecks most players to YOUR liking for the fastest possible run. You have the arrogance to tell others what to play and how to play it to make a 10 minute dungeon into a 5 minute one. Because it's "efficient."

THEN you say it's not your fault that you want the fastest run but ArenaNet's, completely ignoring that any dungeon can be defeated by any collection of classes played by competent players. In fact, your anger seems to have blinded you to these facts and you needed elaboration for a very simple point instead of thinking things through.

Calm yourself down. Don't let emotions get in the way of improvement. You'll see exactly what I see. Where you think "We should have taken a warrior, let's kick the necro," I think "I can easily win this with what we have and here's how." That is where the real divide between us is.

Really, that's all you have? A strawman argument?

I didn't say it's ArenaNets fault I want to be efficient. Please try again. I said it's ArenaNets fault the classes aren't properly balanced, which creates a situation where one class is better at something then another. If any other class could get close to the amount of damage a warrior can then I would be happy to have them there. And sometimes we do play with thiefs in CoF farms, they are not quite on the level but a full dps theif is close enough.

I am also well aware that pretty much any combination of characters can complete any dungeon (with the exception of high level fractals). I am blind to nothing. It is just not a relevant point.

I'm farming for my legendary. When I started farming I needed to get 700g done. For the sake of keeping it simple lets say each CoF run gives an average of 0.50 gold per run. 700/0.50= 1400 runs. Now, lets say these runs are with really good teams that are good and can do 6 minute runs. 1400 * 6 = 8400 minutes or 140 hours is what it will take with really good teams. This is a long time to farm money. Now lets say we do it your way, and invite who ever, with whatever gear and don't give a crap about efficiency. Runs would likely take around 12 minutes or more, 1400*12 = 16,800 minutes or 280 hours. So by being efficient I can potentially shave off 140 hours of time in reaching my goal of farming the money I need.

Now I don't particularly love grinding so if there is a way I can shave that amount of time off of the total time I need to spend farming, you can be damn sure I will do it. And if you don't like that, that's too frikking bad for you.

I don't care that the content can be completed with any combination of characters, because that is so far off the point that you are not even realizing what this discussion is actually about. We are not doing a dungeon, we are farming.

And when I do a dungeon, say Arah, I'm exactly like you - I will accept any classes and the idea of checking their gear won't even occur to me because the situation does not require it. We're just doing a dungeon, and so it does not matter.

Now I still maintain that you are the arrogant ones, thinking you deserve a spot on a speedfarm team with a class that would negatively impact the rest of the group. When you can show me that you can burst out 50-60k damage over a 10 second period, I will gladly take a objective look at the group compositions I find acceptable when speedfarming. Until then all you have are empty words. Warriors have set the bar for damage dealing, if you can match it or beat it then I will accept you into my speedfarms.

Edited by Senatic, 10 February 2013 - 12:21 PM.


#50 Darkobra

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 02:29 PM

Thanks for confirming exactly what I said. Welcome to Guild Wars!

#51 infisio

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 04:53 PM

View Postoni88, on 09 February 2013 - 09:09 PM, said:

This. I have also been in many less than 10 minute runs (prob ~6/7 mins) with a mix of classes. And with time spent with contested dungeons + finding people of the right class, does 1-2 minutes really matter?

Exactly!  With the extra time it takes to hand pick people specific profession and check their gear - what's an extra 5-10 minutes with a random PUG group?  Reminds me of the people who circle the parking lot for 15 minutes to get a spot really close to the door, when they could have parked a little further away and be 10 minutes into shopping :D

#52 Humfly

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 05:15 PM

View PostBartenderMan, on 09 February 2013 - 06:40 PM, said:

So what if you can clear CoF in 5 minutes? How is that even remotely enjoyable?

Running dungeons isn't enjoyable, it is a chore done to get tokens and drops. The quicker it is done the better.

#53 Somohexuals

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 05:34 PM

View PostCoren, on 09 February 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:


Also helps that warriors and guardians are really easy to use compared to other professions

Lol?

I agree that a monkey could play a Warrior but trying to say that Mesmers, Thieves, Rangers, or Necromancers are any more difficult than Guardians is just silly.

#54 Heart Collector

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 06:13 PM

View PostSenatic, on 09 February 2013 - 03:43 PM, said:

I love how arrogant people are thinking everyone who asks for a specific class for a specific task must be an elitist. As if that's the only possible explanation. It couldn't possibly be that their specific requirements are a result of the task requiring of it. Obviously they all do it because they're just *s.

How ignorant can you be. Please kids, grow up. If someone wants to do a CoF speedfarm there is one way that is the most efficient. How can you blame people for wanting to do it efficiently. If you need to blame anyone maybe you should start with ArenaNet, they are the ones who are balancing these classes after all.

Don't blame the players for playing the game the way that's most efficient. Also if some guy wants to run a party with only Mesmers that is his own buisness. I don't see why his choices of teammates are any less valuable then any of yours.

It's a game not a pissing contest. People wanting "efficiency" will group with people they know and work well with, PUGs are just bad for that sort of thing. Speedruns and all that meta stuff requires knowledge, cooperation and skill just as much as the "optimal" class.

Edited by Heart Collector, 10 February 2013 - 06:13 PM.


#55 TGIFrisbie

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 06:39 PM

View PostHumfly, on 10 February 2013 - 05:15 PM, said:

Running dungeons isn't enjoyable, it is a chore done to get tokens and drops. The quicker it is done the better.

Everyone that runs dungeon instances swears they are "fun".  Then as you run them alongside these players and fight bosses that take forever to take down or have cheesy 1-hit down mechanics and they start typing "zzzzzzzzzz".  So then you ask them "Why do you say this is fun?"  And they will finally admit it isn't, but using exploits, bugs, zerging past content, that is the "fun".

Sad but true, it's the exploits they consider "fun".  Tells you something about flawed design and developers who fool themselves into believing their designs are being used so much because they are "fun".

#56 johnnybravo15

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 07:22 PM

I miss playing as a healer so much :C

#57 ObscureThreat

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 11:43 PM

Really the only place this is coming up is in speedruns, and for me that's fine. It was the same in GW1. If you did a FoW speedrun you had to have a certain team composition to get the best results, i.e. Assassin, Warrior, Mesmer. I haven't come across any non speedrun in which a person said you had to be this class or that. Its just how speedruns are. Even if all the classes had the same dps, someone will find some class that is marginally more efficient than the others for a particular speedrun, and boom, that becomes the new requirement.

#58 Wifflebottom

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 12:38 AM

View PostSomohexuals, on 10 February 2013 - 05:34 PM, said:

Lol?

I agree that a monkey could play a Warrior but trying to say that Mesmers, Thieves, Rangers, or Necromancers are any more difficult than Guardians is just silly.
Mesmers, Thieves, Rangers, and Necromancers are more difficult to play than Guardians. None of them can just sit in AoE circles or take focus fire from groups of enemies. So yes, Guardians are easier...

#59 Jetjordan

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 12:58 AM

View PostHumfly, on 10 February 2013 - 05:15 PM, said:

Running dungeons isn't enjoyable, it is a chore done to get tokens and drops. The quicker it is done the better.

This is the saddest thing I've ever heard.  Please stop running dungeons, this is just a game.

People really need to get outside of their typical dungeon runs and whatnot and just go explore the world of GW2.  I bet the guy that said this doesn't even know that the pirate ship from the Goonies is hidden in Tyria somewhere.

#60 Humfly

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 03:28 AM

View PostJetjordan, on 11 February 2013 - 12:58 AM, said:

This is the saddest thing I've ever heard.  Please stop running dungeons, this is just a game.

People really need to get outside of their typical dungeon runs and whatnot and just go explore the world of GW2.  I bet the guy that said this doesn't even know that the pirate ship from the Goonies is hidden in Tyria somewhere.

You think I should run jumping puzzles instead because the pirate ship gets better the 2nd, 10th, 100th? time you see it? I have done Fawcetts's thing (whatever it is called) a couple of times and that's it the content has been consumed.

Dungeon paths would be the same except they are balanced and designed to provide a small challenge and consume the time of people that have seen them 100 times which makes the first few times through slow, painful, and unenjoyable. They don't get better the 10th time through just armed with knowledge from previous runs they get less bad and consume less time.




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