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axe/mace axe/axe viability against generic Greatsword


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#1 Coren

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 10:39 AM

Hey guys,

I know that such topics exist.already, but my question is a bit more particular than number crunching and build suggestions.

I hate swords as martial weapons in games. Mesmer swords I can handle because they are more focusing weapons than martial weapons, but I digress. I love axes and hammers/maces and have started (level 35)a warrior after extensively playing an engineer and mesmer, and I wanted a much easier.class when I wanted to just cut loose.

Since I see so many GS warriorsand guardians, I want to know just how much of a handicap I would be to my team if I ran axe/mace. Axe/axe doesn't tempt me as much because off and.axe just fives a short fury buff.I can easily get with for great justice. Mace offhand offers a nice extra vulnerability and AoE knockdown.

I have a build I'm working towards that I like, which would look like.20/0/0/30/20 and after testing it in sPvP, looks quite good with survivability grown in.

But thing is, would I be welcome in parties? Would a warrior running something else than GS be liked?

Thanks for your input :)

#2 chullster

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 10:52 AM

If you were set up as DPS, the weapons you use on warrior are not as important, I've run Axe/mace in full DPS roles myself, had no complaints from PuGs and enjoyed the variety.

#3 Red_Falcon

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 11:07 AM

Axe mainhand with sigil of strength and Axe mastery has actually lots more DPS than Greatsword.
Especially if you go with Mace offhand which gets you a total of 8 vulnerability stacks.

#4 Coren

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:03 PM

View Postchullster, on 08 February 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

If you were set up as DPS, the weapons you use on warrior are not as important, I've run Axe/mace in full DPS roles myself, had no complaints from PuGs and enjoyed the variety.

Full.dps means no.self preservation or condition removal? Also great Vasquez pic :)

#5 Puandro

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:18 PM

Axe/Mace with Sigil of Strength is about 5-6% less dps than a GS warrior doing its typical rotation, but its about 12-13% less than GS with a mob against the wall due to whirlwind being a dps boost since you don't have to use rush or blade tail after whirlwind to get back to your target.

Both are so close that even in a speed run group any choice is good enough.

#6 Coren

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 01:38 PM

View PostPuandro, on 08 February 2013 - 12:18 PM, said:

Axe/Mace with Sigil of Strength is about 5-6% less dps than a GS warrior doing its typical rotation, but its about 12-13% less than GS with a mob against the wall due to whirlwind being a dps boost since you don't have to use rush or blade tail after whirlwind to get back to your target.

Both are so close that even in a speed run group any choice is good enough.

When you say 5-6%, how do you come to those numbers please?

#7 Puandro

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 03:00 PM

View PostCoren, on 08 February 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

When you say 5-6%, how do you come to those numbers please?

You take attack speed, character build, traits, typical group setup, typical rotation, ect.

#8 Coren

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 03:18 PM

View PostPuandro, on 08 February 2013 - 03:00 PM, said:



You take attack speed, character build, traits, typical group setup, typical rotation, ect.

Ok... So basically it's completely random:) I get what you mean, but I guess it depends on what you call typical, what kind if gear you chose etc...

So bottom line is, both are viable, thanks guys :)

#9 Red_Falcon

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 03:19 PM

I tested the following with 25 might.
Full axe autoattack (6 hits) takes 2 seconds = 6*3k+ dmg = 18k dmg / 2 = 9k DPS
HB 25k / 3.5 = 7.1k DPS

Axe is already superior in DPS without using the Dual Wielding trait and without considering Vulnerability Axe gets (4 to 8 depending on offhand).
When you take all those into consideration the DPS difference should be around 25-30% in favor of Axe.

Any decent Warrior here will tell you the same.

#10 Wethospu

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 03:44 PM

View PostRed_Falcon, on 08 February 2013 - 03:19 PM, said:

I tested the following with 25 might.
Full axe autoattack (6 hits) takes 2 seconds = 6*3k+ dmg = 18k dmg / 2 = 9k DPS
HB 25k / 3.5 = 7.1k DPS

Axe is already superior in DPS without using the Dual Wielding trait and without considering Vulnerability Axe gets (4 to 8 depending on offhand).
When you take all those into consideration the DPS difference should be around 25-30% in favor of Axe.

Any decent Warrior here will tell you the same.
"Great" testing.

My test show that "Warhorn DPS" > "Axe DPS" by miles. I actually didn't test anything and used random numbers but it still should be valid.

Edited by Wethospu, 08 February 2013 - 03:48 PM.


#11 Coren

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 03:46 PM

View PostRed_Falcon, on 08 February 2013 - 03:19 PM, said:

I tested the following with 25 might.
Full axe autoattack (6 hits) takes 2 seconds = 6*3k+ dmg = 18k dmg / 2 = 9k DPS
HB 25k / 3.5 = 7.1k DPS

Axe is already superior in DPS without using the Dual Wielding trait and without considering Vulnerability Axe gets (4 to 8 depending on offhand).
When you take all those into consideration the DPS difference should be around 25-30% in favor of Axe.

Any decent Warrior here will tell you the same.

So each swing does 3k? And in one second I do 9k? Yikes... And I imagine it's also full beserker and those numbers are all criticals?

#12 Puandro

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 04:48 PM

Red Falcon is waaay of the mark like always, don't listen to him.

Axe Auto Attack takes 3.6 seconds.
HB takes 3.6 seconds.

Damage formula is pretty simple.

Power*Weapon Damage*Skill Modifier*Bonus Damage/Armor = Damage

This is extremely easy to see it's true. BTW your tooltips are based on the enemy having 2,600 armor so you can plug in the nurmbers and see its true.

Naked Warrior has 916 Power.
Exotic GS Weapon Damage has 995-1100 which means its 995+1100/2=1047.5.
Greatsword Swing has 0.7 Skill Modifier.
Bonus Damage is not reflected in the tooltip.

So, 916*1047.5*0.7/2600=258.3
Tooltips are rounded up.
http://i.imgur.com/Zl32doJ.jpg

So lets take a full berserker warrior with the typical group spec but no traits taken into account atm to keep it more simple.
20/25/0/10/15

Also lets add a Bloodlust Sigil (250 Power) with Omnom Pies (70 Precision) and Master Maintenance Oil (95 Precision)
2410 Power
57.98 Crit %
2.32 Multiplier

Hundred Blades has a .55 Modifier for the multi hits (8 hits) and a 1.1 Modifier for the last hit.

2410*1047.5*.55/2600=534*8(hits)=4272
2410*1047.5*1.1/2600=1068
4272+1068=5340

Now to add Crit% and Crit Multiplier, i will just use the formula i use in my Excel Sheet.
Damage*((Crit%/100)*(Crit Multiplier-1)+1)
5340*((57.98/100)*(2.32-1)+1)=9426

Now for DPS
3.6 Cast Time
9426/3.6=2618

HB is 2,618 DPS (if you could spam it)



Now for Axe.

Skill Modifier
Chop= .75
Double Chop= .8
Triple Chop= .85

Chop
2410*952.5*.75/2600=662

Double Chop
2410*952.5*.8/2600=706*2(hits)=1412

Triple Chop
2410*952.5*.85/2600=750*3(hits)=2250

662+1412+2250=4324

4324*((57.98/100)*(2.32-1)+1)=7633

7633/3.6=2120

Axe #1 is 2120 DPS



Recap
HB = 2,618
Axe #1 = 2,120

Thats 23% more damage in GS favor.

Obviously this isn't fair because you can't spam HB but if you use HB off cooldown and spam #1 in between.

HB + #1 in between = 1971 which is less DPS than Axe #1

Cyclone Axe + #1 in between = 2252 DPS

So Axe does 2252 with #1 and #2
GS does 1971 with #1 and #2

This is all looks like it favors Axe but when you add Forceful GS giving you might on crit which is on average 10 stacks of might = 350 Power than thats when GS pulls ahead of Axe.
Also keep in mind GS is all about using 2-5 and not using #1 as much since its damage sucks (worse than Hammer #1). Whirlwind is the 2nd contributor to GS damage, which you only use when #4 is up to use while running back or #5 is up to get back to your target, but if the target is against the wall GS 1+2+3 attacks of CD's destroys Axe/Mace DPS.

So Forceful GS adds 10 Might on Average, so to keep up some people run what Strife runs (not saying he came up with it or not) and that is a Sigil on your swap weapon so when you swap you gain 3 stacks of might every 10 seconds so you can have 6 stacks up.

So the difference is 4 might stacks usually. Axe/Mace has about 5-6 Vuln more than GS BTW.

All did comes back to my Original Post, GS is slightly better so pick what you want, but you must use a battle swap sigil to gain might to keep up, which is swapping every 5 seconds.

#13 Setharos

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 05:07 PM

There is no dps meter in the game, just play whatever you feel like. both axe and gs offers good dps. Good thing about warriors is the weapon variery you have acess and also the playstyle. Imo axes are good in both pvp/pve while i see gs being good in pve but not so much in pvp vs people that know what they're doing.
In pve I think axes are more bursty, yea i dunno if you accounted for a possible eviscerate being used on cd(which with the correct traits can be very devastating) with also arcing slash(not that good beside the fact it mantain good uptime of fury) being used on cd on your calculations Puandro but if you could I'd like to see the comparison. Again I think both weapons offer varied type of direct damage style.
Dual axes for example offer an incredible uptime of adrenaline and almost 100% guarantee you can evi every 8-10 secs while also having good AoE damage.
Greatsword offer also a good adrenaline build up, nice aoe and nice cleave damage specially if used in the best circustances(i.e against the wall, or during haste effects)

TLDR: Play however you like.

Edited by Setharos, 08 February 2013 - 05:08 PM.


#14 Puandro

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 05:18 PM

View PostSetharos, on 08 February 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:

There is no dps meter in the game, just play whatever you feel like. both axe and gs offers good dps. Good thing about warriors is the weapon variery you have acess and also the playstyle. Imo axes are good in both pvp/pve while i see gs being good in pve but not so much in pvp vs people that know what they're doing.
In pve I think axes are more bursty, yea i dunno if you accounted for a possible eviscerate being used on cd(which with the correct traits can be very devastating) with also arcing slash(not that good beside the fact it mantain good uptime of fury) being used on cd on your calculations Puandro but if you could I'd like to see the comparison. Again I think both weapons offer varied type of direct damage style.
Dual axes for example offer an incredible uptime of adrenaline and almost 100% guarantee you can evi every 8-10 secs while also having good AoE damage.
Greatsword offer also a good adrenaline build up, nice aoe and nice cleave damage specially if used in the best circustances(i.e against the wall, or during haste effects)

TLDR: Play however you like.

Eviscerate is a DPS loss vs 1 target due to adrenaline passives being so good, and its bad vs multiple mobs.

GS Burst Skill is worse than spamming #1 for DPS and since Warriors don't lack Fury up time, it's not worth using.

#15 Setharos

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 05:39 PM

View PostPuandro, on 08 February 2013 - 05:18 PM, said:

Eviscerate is a DPS loss vs 1 target due to adrenaline passives being so good, and its bad vs multiple mobs.

GS Burst Skill is worse than spamming #1 for DPS and since Warriors don't lack Fury up time, it's not worth using.
For eviscerate which usually spike between (8k-13k) depending on how fast you build your adrenaline buddy. Like I said you can rebuild adrenaline really quick depending on your traits. but oh well. I can see the adrenaline passive being that impressive with GS.

Edited by Setharos, 08 February 2013 - 05:40 PM.


#16 Puandro

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 05:44 PM

View PostSetharos, on 08 February 2013 - 05:39 PM, said:

For eviscerate which usually spike between (8k-13k) depending on how fast you build your adrenaline buddy. Like I said you can rebuild adrenaline really quick depending on your traits. but oh well. I can see the adrenaline passive being that impressive with GS.

You can't build adrenaline fast enough on ST mobs which is the only time you would be using eviscerate.

#17 Wethospu

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 06:08 PM

View PostPuandro, on 08 February 2013 - 05:44 PM, said:

You can't build adrenaline fast enough on ST mobs which is the only time you would be using eviscerate.
What about with Versatile Rage (5 Adre on swap) and Furious (+1 Adre from crits) with near 100% CritChance?

#18 Ninja Battle Lion

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 06:16 PM

View PostSetharos, on 08 February 2013 - 05:39 PM, said:

For eviscerate which usually spike between (8k-13k) depending on how fast you build your adrenaline buddy. Like I said you can rebuild adrenaline really quick depending on your traits. but oh well. I can see the adrenaline passive being that impressive with GS.
When you got both Strength V and Disc V you really don't want to be using Evis. Axe AA is huge.

#19 Strife025

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 07:04 PM



#20 Puandro

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 08:02 PM

View PostWethospu, on 08 February 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:

What about with Versatile Rage (5 Adre on swap) and Furious (+1 Adre from crits) with near 100% CritChance?

Adrenaline is split into 3 bars, each bar needs 10 "strikes" so 30 total. Each hit grants 1 strike, weapon swap grants 5, and a crit (if its 100% chance) would be another.

So assuming you crit 100% of the time, and you start with 5 strikes from weapon swapping. Axe AA is 1.6 hits Per Second. so you need about 7.5 seconds to fill you bar back up.

But to get furious you need to give up heightened focus since the best Axe/Mace DPS build in groups is the same for GS, 20/25/0/10/15.

Basically it's not worth it.

#21 chullster

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 08:04 PM

View PostCoren, on 08 February 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

Full.dps means no.self preservation or condition removal? Also great Vasquez pic :)

Ha! you're the first person with any taste I've met on either gw1 or 2 forums over the years, good on you.

#22 Wethospu

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 08:13 PM

View PostPuandro, on 08 February 2013 - 08:02 PM, said:

Adrenaline is split into 3 bars, each bar needs 10 "strikes" so 30 total. Each hit grants 1 strike, weapon swap grants 5, and a crit (if its 100% chance) would be another.

So assuming you crit 100% of the time, and you start with 5 strikes from weapon swapping. Axe AA is 1.6 hits Per Second. so you need about 7.5 seconds to fill you bar back up.

But to get furious you need to give up heightened focus since the best Axe/Mace DPS build in groups is the same for GS, 20/25/0/10/15.

Basically it's not worth it.
I run 20/30/0/0/20 because people complained I was too tanky.
Usually I use Cyclone + swap + Hundred Blades + Whirlwind to get adrenaline back.

Edited by Wethospu, 08 February 2013 - 08:17 PM.


#23 Puandro

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 08:30 PM

View PostWethospu, on 08 February 2013 - 08:13 PM, said:

I run 20/30/0/0/20 because people complained I was too tanky.
Usually I use Cyclone + swap + Hundred Blades + Whirlwind to get adrenaline back.

Empowered is too good, you have 3 buffs up constantly and more in a group.

And with that combo you will get all your adrenaline back if you crit enough but keep in mind you will not have full passives for HB, which is pretty bad.

#24 Stigma

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 03:59 AM

View PostRed_Falcon, on 08 February 2013 - 03:19 PM, said:

I tested the following with 25 might.
Full axe autoattack (6 hits) takes 2 seconds = 6*3k+ dmg = 18k dmg / 2 = 9k DPS
HB 25k / 3.5 = 7.1k DPS

Axe is already superior in DPS without using the Dual Wielding trait and without considering Vulnerability Axe gets (4 to 8 depending on offhand).
When you take all those into consideration the DPS difference should be around 25-30% in favor of Axe.

Any decent Warrior here will tell you the same.

I know its just highschool math but do your numbers even make sense to you? Does it feasibly make sense that a full autoattack from an axe is higher damage than one of the highest burst in the game if not the highest? And by a margin of 2k damage?! Full axe autoattack Chop (1) + Double Chop (2) + Triple Chop (3) = 3.6 seconds. It's only 2 seconds for 4 hits. Hundred Blades is also 3.6 seconds.

Red Falcon - I've noticed you have a tendency of seeing and reading what you want  and discarding everything that doesn't jive with your beliefs. The fact that you keep ignoring Anet's damage equations just make everything else you say have no merit. I can't take anything you say seriously.

Stop using that generic MMO damage equation and read the GW2 Wiki. Despite all of us probably not agreeing with alot of things due to play style and built priorities, I will still say Strife and Wethospu know what they are talking about. Puandro's math is completely logical, Strife has done extensive research and testing with Warrior weapons as shown in his Youtube videos and Wethospu is experienced in optimizing Warrior DPS in his many boss solos. Simply put - they know how to calculate damage in this game.

Red Falcon not only pulled random numbers in his calculations but he paid no attention to the Skill multipliers of Hundred Blades, Axe auto attack or Greatsword autoattack. Refer to this old thread as someone already explained how to even calculate the skill coefficients from scratch. The Dummy Armor value was discovered in BWE PvP actually. Because of that we are able to reverse calculate the Skill Coefficients.
http://www.guildwars...ulating-damage/

Edited by Stigma, 09 February 2013 - 09:32 AM.


#25 Coren

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 08:57 AM

View Postchullster, on 08 February 2013 - 08:04 PM, said:



Ha! you're the first person with any taste I've met on either gw1 or 2 forums over the years, good on you.

Off topic: two (three) words "LET'S ROCK!!!!"

On topic: thanks for the input guys, I'll stick to axe and mace, much more my style.

#26 Stigma

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 09:07 AM

View PostCoren, on 09 February 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

Off topic: two (three) words "LET'S ROCK!!!!"

On topic: thanks for the input guys, I'll stick to axe and mace, much more my style.

Good for you! I have no issues with any Warriors using Axe vs Greatsword. Especially in Fractals 40+ it's 100x more important that you good at playing the game rather than weapon type or build. Axe is more fun and doesn't rely on hundred blades to do damage. But I'm more of a sword type of person ;p

Edited by Stigma, 09 February 2013 - 10:08 AM.


#27 Wethospu

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 09:58 AM

View PostPuandro, on 08 February 2013 - 08:30 PM, said:

Empowered is too good, you have 3 buffs up constantly and more in a group.

And with that combo you will get all your adrenaline back if you crit enough but keep in mind you will not have full passives for HB, which is pretty bad.
I really care about solo performance. 50 precision and 5 CritDamage increases my damage about 3.9% (1-CritChance + CritChance*CritDamage, 94%/97% CritChance,89/94 CritDamage, about same without Sigil of Perception).
On top of that I get Signet Mastery to increase Fury up-time from 87% (with +10% Boon) to 94.5% (like 30 Precision). Also I'm usually forced to use burst skill to get Endurance so Furious helps with damage, too.

Have you done any math how much Eviscerate lowers you DPS (with or without Furious)? I'm interested to figure out cases when using it is optimal. For example, does 300-leap help if you are at 300 distance? how fast enemy needs to die to make it worth of it?

Edited by Wethospu, 09 February 2013 - 10:06 AM.


#28 Puandro

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 05:17 PM

I havent ran a axe/GS Setup rotation so i will have to make one to compare. Also Axe/Mace is worse vs defiant mobs since vuln barely sticks.

#29 Lucav

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 06:03 PM

View PostPuandro, on 08 February 2013 - 05:18 PM, said:

Eviscerate is a DPS loss vs 1 target due to adrenaline passives being so good, and its bad vs multiple mobs.

GS Burst Skill is worse than spamming #1 for DPS and since Warriors don't lack Fury up time, it's not worth using.
Do you have any proof that eviscerate is a dps loss on single targets?
Edit* I went ahead and did some napkin math for this
Assuming worst case scenario for evis, and best case for axe autoattack
10 second cycle
3.6 s per cycle at 6 hits
100% crit, 2k per swing.

Run 1) full adren constantly (12% damage)
10s/3.6s = 2.77 * 6 = 16.62 attacks in 10 seconds * 2240 = 37,200

Run 2) no adren with evis ( to keep the numbers simple)
10s/3.6s = 2.77 * 6 = 16.62 attacks in 10 seconds * 2000 = 33,200 - 1 aa to account for using evis = 31,200

So eviscerate would need to do over 6k average damage to be worth using. This is worst case scenario for evis because I did not take into account the 3% - 12% damage bonuses that run 2 would be under for many of those hits, nor did I take into account the effect of cancelling triple chop with evis, both of which will skew the numbers further towards evis.

Take this for what you will, but my eviscerate definately hits harder then 6k and it crits 100% of the time.

Edited by Lucav, 09 February 2013 - 06:30 PM.


#30 Puandro

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 07:10 PM

View PostLucav, on 09 February 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

Do you have any proof that eviscerate is a dps loss on single targets?
Edit* I went ahead and did some napkin math for this
Assuming worst case scenario for evis, and best case for axe autoattack
10 second cycle
3.6 s per cycle at 6 hits
100% crit, 2k per swing.

Run 1) full adren constantly (12% damage)
10s/3.6s = 2.77 * 6 = 16.62 attacks in 10 seconds * 2240 = 37,200

Run 2) no adren with evis ( to keep the numbers simple)
10s/3.6s = 2.77 * 6 = 16.62 attacks in 10 seconds * 2000 = 33,200 - 1 aa to account for using evis = 31,200

So eviscerate would need to do over 6k average damage to be worth using. This is worst case scenario for evis because I did not take into account the 3% - 12% damage bonuses that run 2 would be under for many of those hits, nor did I take into account the effect of cancelling triple chop with evis, both of which will skew the numbers further towards evis.

Take this for what you will, but my eviscerate definately hits harder then 6k and it crits 100% of the time.

Full Berserker Gear, 14 stacks of might, Perma Fury, 10 vuln stacks. Omnom pie and crit potion.


A Typical rotation would be.

Cyclone Axe
Axe #1
Axe #1
Cyclone Axe
Chop
Double Chop

At this points you have done 19 hits, so 19 strikes of adrenaline, then you would have swapped weapon twice, thats 10 strikes so 29, lets say 30 though.

Then you use Eviscerate.
http://i.imgur.com/yEHYeiM.png

42570 Damage
3800 DPS

Your next rotation would be less damage since Cyclone wouldn't be off CD right off the bad but lets keep it simple.

A Simple rotation
Cyclone Axe
Axe #1
Axe #1
Repeat

With Berserker's Power thats
3801 DPS

Then you add Heightened Focus
4023 DPS

If you are using Evi for endurance its not really that bad of a dps loss, but using it for dps its not that great. There is also the fact that you start doing more damage over time as you get close to 3 bars and thats what i have not taken into account thats what i said earlier, its a wash at best vs ST.




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