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#121 GuanglaiKangyi

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 06:47 PM

That doesn't prove anything either, since that only shows my guardian's DPS running solo.  Guardian DPS is strong when they get fury and might from an external source.  Otherwise there's no question that warrior DPS is better in a 1 to 1 comparison, and why you run with one warrior in an otherwise all-guardian party.  The guardians stack might on each other and the warrior gives fury for maximum DPS.

Edit: It's your lucky day.  I was pugging COF and noticed that the group was capping might and vuln on the effigy.  I took a short clip of my damage output on the slave driver during the subsequent run so you can see just how hard I hit.  Let me disclaim this since it's not immediately obvious from the video:

1) This is a pug.  I'm not responsible for the other players' damage output.  This is only to show my own damage output, not how fast the group itself can kill the boss.

2) I'm not sitting at 25 might and vuln until near the end.  If you want to see the maximum potential damage output, watch my numbers for the last 3-4 seconds or so.

3) I'm not using DPS food since this was just something I recorded during a farm run and not meant to be a "damage contest" with Strife.  I'm also downscaled to 75 since it's COF, so in a level 80 dungeon like Fractals or Arah with DPS food, the damage output will be a fair bit more.



This ought to shut you guys up, yes?

Edited by GuanglaiKangyi, 26 February 2013 - 06:24 PM.


#122 Ioflux

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 01:58 AM

View PostGuanglaiKangyi, on 25 February 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

That doesn't prove anything either, since that only shows my guardian's DPS running solo.  Guardian DPS is strong when they get fury and might from an external source.  Otherwise there's no question that warrior DPS is better in a 1 to 1 comparison, and why you run with one warrior in an otherwise all-guardian party.  The guardians stack might on each other and the warrior gives fury for maximum DPS.

Edit: It's your lucky day.  I was pugging COF and noticed that the group was capping might and vuln on the effigy.  I took a short clip of my damage output on the slave driver during the subsequent run so you can see just how hard I hit.



This ought to shut you guys up, yes?

Awesome, 3 warrior 1 guardian and 1 mesmer that cant kill in under 1 timewarp. Nice try though.

Edited by Ioflux, 26 February 2013 - 01:58 AM.


#123 GuanglaiKangyi

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 02:13 AM

View PostIoflux, on 26 February 2013 - 01:58 AM, said:

Awesome, 3 warrior 1 guardian and 1 mesmer that cant kill in under 1 timewarp. Nice try though.

You'll notice I'm hitting harder than the warriors are.  I'm hitting harder than Strife is in the video he linked, except I'm also downscaled to 75 and using MF food.

Show me a video of you hitting harder than that with a warrior, then we'll talk.  Ball's in your court.

#124 Strife025

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 05:51 AM



#125 masaki98

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 06:00 AM

View PostGuanglaiKangyi, on 26 February 2013 - 02:13 AM, said:



Show me a video of you hitting harder than that with a warrior, then we'll talk.  Ball's in your court.

ur dps is pretty decent but just not as much as a warrior

now go make a 3 guardian 1 war group video that clears faster than strifes, are u up for the challenge?

#126 escada_assassin

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 06:04 AM

I'm sorry, I main a Guardian and I love it, but no Guardian group will ever do what a Warrior group will. As seen in the video. XD

P.S. Yeah, they survive better, they have blocks and boons, but DPS wise - they're close to hitting like my grandma'.

Edited by escada_assassin, 26 February 2013 - 06:05 AM.


#127 GuanglaiKangyi

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 07:11 AM

View PostStrife025, on 26 February 2013 - 05:51 AM, said:



That's funny because that video shows that I'm doing more damage than you.  Your swings are hitting about 3.5k per hit on the axe.  That's 21k over 3.75s normally, because of quickness that's doubled so you're getting 11.2k/s.  You can tell at the end of the video when I get to 25 stacks of might and vuln that I'm hitting about 3.6k on the first two hits then 7k on the last hit.  That's 14.2k over 2.5s, doubled for 11.36k/s.  The only other difference is that you lead with HB > Whirlwind, and I lead with Smite > Ray of Judgment.  Smite is actually stronger than HB in terms of total damage (just look at the tooltip), but Slave Driver isn't that big so I wasn't getting as many hits; in practice the aggregate damage is roughly equivalent since Smite also casts much faster; your HB hits for about 30k over a 2s channel in quickness, during that time my Smite would hit for about 12-14k plus one full sword chain for another 14k, give or take.

So basically, the warrior has a slight burst advantage that is offset by a lower sustained DPS.  I'm guessing your crit rate should be around 80-90% depending on consumables, while mine is 95-100%, and we are hitting for the same amount on crits.  I should also add that you have a higher crit damage than mine, which means that not would I not "miss" crits as much, when I do miss them (it happens once in my own vid, probably because I wasn't quite at 100%), I lose less damage.

Beyond that, yes, you killed the effigy faster than me.  That's unsurprising since I stated clearly that it was a pug.  The mesmer didn't even push the Driver to the wall, so the warriors couldn't Whirlwind, if they were even built for DPS.  What we do clearly have, however, are numbers showing that guardian hits a higher sustained number than warrior when both have 25 stacks of might and fury and the target has 25 stacks of vuln.  You've been harping on about me not having video evidence to back up my calculations.  Now you have it.

I think that pretty much resolves the issue of guardian vs. warrior, unless there's something else you want to add.

Edited by GuanglaiKangyi, 26 February 2013 - 07:15 AM.


#128 Ioflux

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 07:18 AM

View PostGuanglaiKangyi, on 26 February 2013 - 07:11 AM, said:

That's funny because that video shows that I'm doing more damage than you.  Your swings are hitting about 3.5k per hit on the axe.  That's 21k over 3.75s normally, because of quickness that's doubled so you're getting 11.2k/s.  You can tell at the end of the video when I get to 25 stacks of might and vuln that I'm hitting about 3.6k on the first two hits then 7k on the last hit.  That's 14.2k over 2.5s, doubled for 11.36k/s.  The only other difference is that you lead with HB > Whirlwind, and I lead with Smite > Ray of Judgment.  Smite is actually stronger than HB in terms of total damage (just look at the tooltip), but Slave Driver isn't that big so I wasn't getting as many hits; in practice the aggregate damage is roughly equivalent since Smite also casts much faster; your HB hits for about 30k over a 2s channel in quickness, during that time my Smite would hit for about 12-14k plus one full sword chain for another 14k, give or take.

So basically, the warrior has a slight burst advantage that is offset by a lower sustained DPS.  I'm guessing your crit rate should be around 80-90% depending on consumables, while mine is 95-100%, and we are hitting for the same amount on crits.  I should also add that you have a higher crit damage than mine, which means that not would I not "miss" crits as much, when I do miss them (it happens once in my own vid, probably because I wasn't quite at 100%), I lose less damage.

Beyond that, yes, you killed the effigy faster than me.  That's unsurprising since I stated clearly that it was a pug.  The mesmer didn't even push the Driver to the wall, so the warriors couldn't Whirlwind, if they were even built for DPS.  What we do clearly have, however, are numbers showing that guardian hits a higher sustained number than warrior when both have 25 stacks of might and fury and the target has 25 stacks of vuln.  You've been harping on about me not having video evidence to back up my calculations.  Now you have it.

I think that pretty much resolves the issue of guardian vs. warrior, unless there's something else you want to add.

Would, should, but didn't, so post a video doing it.. then we'll talk.

13s kill time vs 8s kill time (from time of first hit till dead). Those numbers.... look good on tooltips

Edited by Ioflux, 26 February 2013 - 07:37 AM.


#129 Strife025

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 07:48 AM

View PostGuanglaiKangyi, on 26 February 2013 - 07:11 AM, said:

That's funny because that video shows that I'm doing more damage than you.  Your swings are hitting about 3.5k per hit on the axe.  That's 21k over 3.75s normally, because of quickness that's doubled so you're getting 11.2k/s.  You can tell at the end of the video when I get to 25 stacks of might and vuln that I'm hitting about 3.6k on the first two hits then 7k on the last hit.  That's 14.2k over 2.5s, doubled for 11.36k/s.  The only other difference is that you lead with HB > Whirlwind, and I lead with Smite > Ray of Judgment.  Smite is actually stronger than HB in terms of total damage (just look at the tooltip), but Slave Driver isn't that big so I wasn't getting as many hits; in practice the aggregate damage is roughly equivalent since Smite also casts much faster; your HB hits for about 30k over a 2s channel in quickness, during that time my Smite would hit for about 12-14k plus one full sword chain for another 14k, give or take.

So basically, the warrior has a slight burst advantage that is offset by a lower sustained DPS.  I'm guessing your crit rate should be around 80-90% depending on consumables, while mine is 95-100%, and we are hitting for the same amount on crits.  I should also add that you have a higher crit damage than mine, which means that not would I not "miss" crits as much, when I do miss them (it happens once in my own vid, probably because I wasn't quite at 100%), I lose less damage.

Beyond that, yes, you killed the effigy faster than me.  That's unsurprising since I stated clearly that it was a pug.  The mesmer didn't even push the Driver to the wall, so the warriors couldn't Whirlwind, if they were even built for DPS.  What we do clearly have, however, are numbers showing that guardian hits a higher sustained number than warrior when both have 25 stacks of might and fury and the target has 25 stacks of vuln.  You've been harping on about me not having video evidence to back up my calculations.  Now you have it.

I think that pretty much resolves the issue of guardian vs. warrior, unless there's something else you want to add.

lol I knew you would come up with a dumb excuse.

First you are obviously delusional that smite does more damage then HB, especially in the rare case that smite actually hits all 15 hits. The number of bosses that don't move and are big enough to get hit 15 times are so few, it's laughable you're even using that as part of the comparison. In this example and many others, your smite "would not" hit for 12-14k, it would hit for whatever it hit in this video. The burst from your first 3 seconds does not even come close to the 32k + 16k from 100B + WW.

Also all my swings are hitting for an average of over 4k per swing on axe with 3 stacks of adrenaline, and the attack speed on axe is lower then sword as well. They hit for less at the very end after the 16k eviscerate which apparently you chose to ignore as well, but this is a GS build meaning you use Evisc for burst at the very end of the fight. Crit chance is 93% since I'm using Accuracy on my GS btw.

Without the Eviscerate you still get better sustained damage because 100B and WW have short cooldowns where you would need to switch back to scepter/focus and be stuck with it for 10 seconds giving you inferior dps, on something already inferior to 100B + WW. Not to mention in your so called 3 guardian/1war/1 engi group which you say is ideal, you would not be able to stack 25 stacks of might at the start of the fight for high burst, you would waste time picking up banners, you would not have time warp, and you wouldn't have the utility that actually makes it capable to speed run all dungeons since dungeons are more then standing still and actually assume a variety of mechanics and utility skills to run them quickly and efficiently like in a 1 guard anchor/3 warrior/1 mesmer party for everything outside of a few simple paths like CoF 1.

The comments and responses of everyone show how delusional your are, but of course keep living in your fantasy world where your make believe group that doesn't actually exist actually kills faster and runs dungeons quicker then a guild that actually does it every night.

Edited by Strife025, 26 February 2013 - 07:52 AM.


#130 GuanglaiKangyi

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 08:09 AM

You wanted a video, I gave you one, and it proved me right.  The only thing your video proves is that your guild can barely kill a boss faster than a random pug with no requirements I happened to join.  Hell, the mesmer wasn't even standing inside the timewarp, and I think he was using scepter, of all weapons.  Otherwise, yes, I deal more damage than you, at least once the party got up to 25 stacks of might and vuln properly.

This is pretty much the most favorable situation possible for a warrior compared to a guardian and I'm still outDPSing you.  You have a boss you can push into a wall, who doesn't have anything to force you to dodge, and who it is possible to kill with a single burst of long-CD skills.  Trying to argue that this video isn't indicative of real dungeons doesn't work when real dungeons favor guardians heavily.  Most bosses won't die in one burst, and most don't just sit there and let you afkspam HB and WWA in Timewarp.  Guardians deal more damage at range, equivalent (if not slightly better) damage in melee, and last much longer.

Also, are you seriously debating that HB does more than Smite, on a big target?  Smite casts in .83 seconds and deals over 20k.  HB takes 4 seconds and deals 30k.  That's less than 50% more damage and it takes almost 5 times as long.  If I did Smite and switched to a sword, I'd do 39k in the same period of time it takes for you to channel a 30k HB.

You are the classic example of the warrior who sees big numbers on his HB and assumes he must be doing 60k+ damage with the entire thing.  I'll say this again:

Big numbers =/= big DPS.

Edited by GuanglaiKangyi, 26 February 2013 - 08:30 AM.


#131 Strife025

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 08:36 AM

View PostGuanglaiKangyi, on 26 February 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

You wanted a video, I gave you one, and it proved me right.  The only thing your video proves is that your guild can barely kill a boss faster than a random pug with no requirements I happened to join.  Hell, the mesmer wasn't even standing inside the timewarp, and I think he was using scepter, of all weapons.  Otherwise, yes, I deal more damage than you, at least once the party got up to 25 stacks of might and vuln properly.

This is pretty much the most favorable situation possible for a warrior compared to a guardian and I'm still outDPSing you.  You have a boss you can push into a wall, who doesn't have anything to force you to dodge, and who it is possible to kill with a single burst of long-CD skills.

Also, are you seriously debating that HB does more than Smite, on a big target?  Smite casts in .83 seconds and deals over 20k.  HB takes 4 seconds and deals 30k.  That's less than 50% more damage and it takes almost 5 times as long.  If I did Smite and switched to a sword, I'd do 39k in the same period of time it takes for you to channel a 30k HB.

You are the classic example of the warrior who sees big numbers on his HB and assumes he must be doing 60k+ damage with the entire thing.  I'll say this again:

Big numbers =/= big DPS.

First your smite did not deal over 20k which your video clearly proves, and as I mentioned, there are far more "normal" bosses then big targets and over both a sustained longer fight and a short burst fight Warrior wins both because of superior burst and because of lower cooldowns and weapon swaps. Oh and 100B is 3.5s, may want to get that right first . Maybe you should use your brain a little and add up the numbers of your dps compared to mine over the ~8s period it took us to kill the slave driver. Funny you think over 30% faster is "barely killing a boss faster", might want to check your calculations again, because 30% faster over the course of a dungeon is pretty significant. In an already ~10s fight, every second faster is a huge difference.

Not to mention you still ignore the 4k auto attacks which attacks faster then then the sword auto attacks, which also add vulnerability, and the eviscerate burst. Not to mention completely dodging your 3 guardian/1 warrior/1 engi superior dps group and the fact that  your paper calculations actually represent the mechanics that are involved in each dungeon and fractal.

Again have fun with your make believe group and numbers where smite actually hits 15 times and you try to ignore dps aspects of a very simple and short video where you continually make errors analyzing it. If you want me to make you look even more foolish I'd be happy to download both videos, add the stopwatch function to the top left, and show how inferior your damage since it's very easy to manually add up numbers over the course of 8s, especially with a video editing program to slow down time. Good thing the community can see both videos and determine it for themselves and I don't need to convince a scrub who obviously has no clue on how to efficiently run dungeons.

Btw, I downloaded your video and used the stop watch function in Sony Vegas Pro and added up the time and damage of your last 2 sword cycles where your might and vuln was closest to maximum.

Your last 6 hits (which is the 1x 1x 3x cycle twice) = 27,688 (all crits) damage over 2.369s

I had to take the closest time comparison from my video which was 7 axe hits for 26,589 (1 non-crit) over 1.935s because there was no 8th hit since I used Eviscerate, which does not include the bleed damage or vulnerability that axe brings as well.

This is also in a GS build meaning you don't get the Dual Wielding Trait for an additional 5% damage nor the 5% damage from a force sigil on offhand mace, not to mention the superior offensive utility that warrior brings to the group.

Oh and did I mention how are you going to get the benefit of time warp, 23 might stacks at the start of the fight (assuming 1 guard/3 war/1 mes), 25 vulnerability, 100% fury uptime without stopping to waste 3 seconds to pick up banners before every fight, boon stripping, multiple banners, superior burst for dps checks, and better sustained auto attacks in your "ideal" 3 guardian/1 war/1 engi group again? Not to mention you keep saying your initial burst "might" compare to 100B + WW if you were fighting a big boss, that didn't move, and you had your 25 might stacks up.
Want to know when you won't have those? In a group with 1 warrior and no mesmer.
How many dungeons consist of a chain of huge big bosses that never move with no other mechanics? Oh that's right, none.

Edited by Strife025, 26 February 2013 - 09:31 AM.


#132 Nikephoros

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 09:18 AM

It's so sad that Guang actually tried, which is more than I gave him credit for, only to belly flop pathetically.  But it was a losing battle from the start, we all knew that.  The caribou have left this place, and so must he.

#133 GuanglaiKangyi

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 09:19 AM

View PostStrife025, on 26 February 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

First your smite did not deal over 20k which your video clearly proves, and as I mentioned, there are far more "normal" bosses then big targets and over both a sustained longer fight and a short burst fight Warrior wins both because of superior burst and because of lower cooldowns and weapon swaps. Oh and 100B is 3.5s, may want to get that right first . Maybe you should use your brain a little and add up the numbers of your dps compared to mine over the ~8s period it took us to kill the slave driver. Funny you think over 30% faster is "barely killing a boss faster", might want to check your calculations again, because 30% faster over the course of a dungeon is pretty significant. In an already ~10s fight, every second faster is a huge difference.

Not to mention you still ignore the 4k auto attacks which attacks faster then then the sword auto attacks, which also add vulnerability, and the eviscerate burst. Not to mention completely dodging your 3 guardian/1 warrior/1 engi superior dps group and the fact that  your paper calculations actually represent the mechanics that are involved in each dungeon and fractal.

Again have fun with your make believe group and numbers where smite actually hits 15 times and you try to ignore dps aspects of a very simple and short video where you continually make errors analyzing it. If you want me to make you look even more foolish I'd be happy to download both videos, add the stopwatch function to the top left, and show how inferior your damage since it's very easy to manually add up numbers over the course of 8s, especially with a video editing program to slow down time. Good thing the community can see both videos and determine it for themselves and I don't need to convince a scrub who obviously has no clue on how to efficiently run dungeons.

You know what, man?  I'm sorry.  I'm sorry that the numbers didn't back up what you wanted to believe, so you demanded videos.  I'm sorry that the video didn't back up what you wanted to believe either, so now you're just throwing out random bullshit about how a pug not being able to outdps an organized guild group somehow proves the superiority of an entire class.

I do agree that it is silly that a guardian, who is supposed to be a defensive support class, can deal more damage than a warrior, who is supposed to be the main DPS class.  That said, I didn't make the game, I only analyzed it.

Let's talk practical circumstances, because numbers clearly aren't your thing.  As you can see, I'm hitting just as hard as your axe warrior is with my sword guardian.  It is true that guardians don't get fury, and they don't stack solo might as well.  That's why you need a group composition specifically built for it.  Warriors do better solo, but the tradeoff is that they don't get ranged DPS and lack an abundance of defensive options.  Ranged DPS is an important thing to have precisely because most bosses won't just let you stack on them and mindlessly melee; even without the advantages of stacking group buffs in melee, and with the boss moving around a lot and being regular-sized, guardian scepter will still do more in general simply because warriors have no effective ranged options.  Rifle is crap for ranged DPS.  Don't even try to argue that one.  That's just ridiculous and you know it.  So at worst, guardians are equivalent in melee and better at range.

#134 Ioflux

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 09:31 AM

View PostGuanglaiKangyi, on 26 February 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

You wanted a video, I gave you one, and it proved me right.  The only thing your video proves is that your guild can barely kill a boss faster than a random pug with no requirements I happened to join.  Hell, the mesmer wasn't even standing inside the timewarp, and I think he was using scepter, of all weapons.  Otherwise, yes, I deal more damage than you, at least once the party got up to 25 stacks of might and vuln properly.

This is pretty much the most favorable situation possible for a warrior compared to a guardian and I'm still outDPSing you.  You have a boss you can push into a wall, who doesn't have anything to force you to dodge, and who it is possible to kill with a single burst of long-CD skills.  Trying to argue that this video isn't indicative of real dungeons doesn't work when real dungeons favor guardians heavily.  Most bosses won't die in one burst, and most don't just sit there and let you afkspam HB and WWA in Timewarp.  Guardians deal more damage at range, equivalent (if not slightly better) damage in melee, and last much longer.

Also, are you seriously debating that HB does more than Smite, on a big target?  Smite casts in .83 seconds and deals over 20k.  HB takes 4 seconds and deals 30k.  That's less than 50% more damage and it takes almost 5 times as long.  If I did Smite and switched to a sword, I'd do 39k in the same period of time it takes for you to channel a 30k HB.

You are the classic example of the warrior who sees big numbers on his HB and assumes he must be doing 60k+ damage with the entire thing.  I'll say this again:

Big numbers =/= big DPS.

View PostGuanglaiKangyi, on 26 February 2013 - 09:19 AM, said:

You know what, man?  I'm sorry.  I'm sorry that the numbers didn't back up what you wanted to believe, so you demanded videos.  I'm sorry that the video didn't back up what you wanted to believe either, so now you're just throwing out random bullshit about how a pug not being able to outdps an organized guild group somehow proves the superiority of an entire class.

I do agree that it is silly that a guardian, who is supposed to be a defensive support class, can deal more damage than a warrior, who is supposed to be the main DPS class.  That said, I didn't make the game, I only analyzed it.

Let's talk practical circumstances, because numbers clearly aren't your thing.  As you can see, I'm hitting just as hard as your axe warrior is with my sword guardian.  It is true that guardians don't get fury, and they don't stack solo might as well.  That's why you need a group composition specifically built for it.  Warriors do better solo, but the tradeoff is that they don't get ranged DPS and lack an abundance of defensive options.  Ranged DPS is an important thing to have precisely because most bosses won't just let you stack on them and mindlessly melee; even without the advantages of stacking group buffs in melee, and with the boss moving around a lot and being regular-sized, guardian scepter will still do more in general simply because warriors have no effective ranged options.  Rifle is crap for ranged DPS.  Don't even try to argue that one.  That's just ridiculous and you know it.  So at worst, guardians are equivalent in melee and better at range.


13s =/= 8s. Again, keep dodging pure fact, keep being delusional, keep runnin theory crafting, if you like killin in your dungeons ~30% slower. Thanks for showing that your slave driver kill is slower. Be sure to pick another boss you want us to embarass you on as you kill it slower and come up with more theorycraft that doesnt translate into practice as well as it does in your head.

#135 Strife025

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 09:41 AM

View PostGuanglaiKangyi, on 26 February 2013 - 09:19 AM, said:

You know what, man?  I'm sorry.  I'm sorry that the numbers didn't back up what you wanted to believe, so you demanded videos.  I'm sorry that the video didn't back up what you wanted to believe either, so now you're just throwing out random bullshit about how a pug not being able to outdps an organized guild group somehow proves the superiority of an entire class.

I do agree that it is silly that a guardian, who is supposed to be a defensive support class, can deal more damage than a warrior, who is supposed to be the main DPS class.  That said, I didn't make the game, I only analyzed it.

Let's talk practical circumstances, because numbers clearly aren't your thing.  As you can see, I'm hitting just as hard as your axe warrior is with my sword guardian.  It is true that guardians don't get fury, and they don't stack solo might as well.  That's why you need a group composition specifically built for it.  Warriors do better solo, but the tradeoff is that they don't get ranged DPS and lack an abundance of defensive options.  Ranged DPS is an important thing to have precisely because most bosses won't just let you stack on them and mindlessly melee; even without the advantages of stacking group buffs in melee, and with the boss moving around a lot and being regular-sized, guardian scepter will still do more in general simply because warriors have no effective ranged options.  Rifle is crap for ranged DPS.  Don't even try to argue that one.  That's just ridiculous and you know it.  So at worst, guardians are equivalent in melee and better at range.

Well you got one thing right, no where did I ever argue Warrior has good ranged DPS.

It's funny you think your 3 guard/1 war/1 engi is "built for it" though with the lack of realistic fury uptime, slow might buildup, no time warp, boon stripping, or added utility to speed run sections and mechanics of dungeons that are more then pure dps.

Want to know why you were able to come even somewhat close? Because 3 warriors and a mesmer.
Want to know why we run 1 guard anchor/3 war/1 mesmer? Because the guardian allows the other classes to full dps and actually complete things more challenging then CoF 1 in full melee.
Which is exactly why CoF1 is 4 war/1 mes in the first place.

Let's see here...

Bosses that need to be ranged in AC? 0
Bosses that need to be ranged in CM? 0
Bosses that need to be ranged in TA? 0
Bosses that need to be ranged in SE? partially last boss of path 2
Bosses that need to be ranged in CoF? 0
Bosses that need to be ranged in HotW? possibly partially last boss of path 1 and 2nd to last on path 2
Bosses that need to be ranged in CoE? 0
Bosses that need to be ranged in Arah? Slime in path 1
Bosses that need to be ranged in Fractals at high levels? Partial Mossman, last boss of dredge, partial boss of colossus, 2nd half of Ascalon, partial last boss of Shaman Fractal.

Not very much bro.

Edited by Strife025, 26 February 2013 - 09:44 AM.


#136 Dream Proxy

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 10:38 AM

I think the video to video response should be the main way to discuss this (like earlier in the thread).  So far, from the guardian video and then strife's video response, I have to say Strife is doing more damage in that particular fight.

IF there is another boss or situation or ANYTHING that is gonna be discussed, it should probably follow some guidelines.  I think having these guidelines will both: 1) Make the discussion more relaxed (hard to argue with a video), 2) Make the comparisons more accurate

Here's my proposition:

- Include a video as evidence when you are arguing about numbers.

This will help prevent theory-crafting or "delusional insanity" that some have been claiming.

- IF *YOU* ARE MAKING THE VIDEO.... always run with an ORGANIZED GROUP that you feel is skillful enough to represent a near-optimal run.

This will help prevent "Well, I was in a PUG, so...---" excuses when someone is losing an argument.  This will also help balance the comparison and aid in finding more accurate results.

- Base video results on certain FACTS.  For example, the time it takes to kill a boss (or a complete a run, for that matter) can represent "efficiency."  

This will help prevent "outside evidence" that focuses on obscure or unreliable factors in a video.  If something is faster, it's faster.  That's it.  You can't argue with time.

-  Let the video evidence do most of the talking.  Unless someone has a question or there is something significant to note, a good source of video evidence should be self-explanatory.

This will help prevent a paragraph about "why the video doesn't exactly prove a certain point."  If you are going to use a video as evidence of something, it damn-well should prove the point.  Otherwise it isn't evidence of anything other than the fact that you have a weak argument.

- Keep it relaxed, try and lay off the insults.  Even if someone says the dumbest thing you ever heard in history, you can easily just say the two words that will make your point clear.  "Show me."

I get that sometimes people get really into the argument.  But, sometimes you gotta remember; the guy you're arguing with (though he may be wrong), can honestly be misunderstanding something.  No one [usually] is "stupid," they [usually] misunderstand how something works.  Also, when insults get thrown into the mix, it's hard for the losing person in the argument to back down and save face.  No one wants to feel like they're dumb or crazy.  You don't have to lie and say they're a genius, or be a politician and find a nice way of calling them an idiot-- just avoid it altogether.  If they really are wrong, and really are "stupid" (though I dislike using the word), then say the magic words: "Show me."

If you're right, some excuse will always pop in there, and they won't be able to "show you."  When that happens there is no need to respond anymore.  Until they can "show you" that they are right with some sort of video evidence, and you have already provided evidence that supports your stance on something-- you won.  At least, you won for now.




PS:  an optimal group with 3 wars/1 guard / 1 engineer?  c'mon, you know you need that pro-mesmer instead ;)

Edited by xxalucard, 26 February 2013 - 10:39 AM.


#137 Dahk

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 01:51 PM

View PostGuanglaiKangyi, on 26 February 2013 - 07:11 AM, said:

That's funny because that video shows that I'm doing more damage than you.  
Did we watch the same video?  The warrior is showing average auto attacks hitting over 4k when the guardian video shows steady hits under 4k.  On top of that, there's burst damage from HB as well as the 16k evis at the end, whereas there's no burst damage anywhere near this in the guardian video...

On a side note, it's depressing how far behind ranged dps is from melee dps.  It's also sad that ranger melee is nothing like this, even if we could survive using a glass cannon melee build.

*edit* well, with a full glass cannon sword build and a glass cannon pet, I could do the dps the guardian does, but it wouldn't be a sustainable build for a dungeon, lol.

Edited by Dahk, 26 February 2013 - 01:54 PM.


#138 Ninja Battle Lion

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 05:58 PM

Argument resolved. GG Strife.

#139 GuanglaiKangyi

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 06:02 PM

View PostDahk, on 26 February 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

Did we watch the same video?  The warrior is showing average auto attacks hitting over 4k when the guardian video shows steady hits under 4k.  On top of that, there's burst damage from HB as well as the 16k evis at the end, whereas there's no burst damage anywhere near this in the guardian video...

On a side note, it's depressing how far behind ranged dps is from melee dps.  It's also sad that ranger melee is nothing like this, even if we could survive using a glass cannon melee build.

*edit* well, with a full glass cannon sword build and a glass cannon pet, I could do the dps the guardian does, but it wouldn't be a sustainable build for a dungeon, lol.

Strife is conveniently ignoring the fact that the majority of the hits in my video are done with something like 10 stacks of might and 5-10 stacks of vulnerability.  It doesn't hit 25 stacks of might and vulnerability till the last 3 seconds of the fight, during which time I am clearly hitting more than him.  He also, of course, ignores the fact that I'm using MF food, and not DPS food like he is, and still hitting harder.  I'm not going to argue numbers with Strife, though, he clearly doesn't get them, and I think most people at this point understand that I'm the go-to person when ti comes to numbers calculations, anyway, so I have nothing to prove.

As for the practical end of things, you'll also note that he himself lists literally more than half the bosses in Fractals, and claims that that isn't " very much."  I'd like to see him try to stack a Time Warp on the legendary grawl shaman while the shaman firestorms his entire warrior party to death in one shot.

#140 Thaddeuz

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 06:03 PM

Well, auto-attack from Guan Sword vs Strife Axe seem pretty equal. At least enough close that i can't really say which one is in lead. Strife definitively hit harder 4k vs 3.7k for maximum damage but Sword attack faster. But for burst DPS that just don't compare.

Guan Smite hit for maximum 12-13K if all hit (which rarely happen). And thats all, he didn't use any other burst.

Strife on the other hand got HB for 32k, Whirlwind for 16k and Eviscerate for 16k.

But i have to give Guan a point. Not all the Warriors use an Axe as secondary weapons. They melee mainly with they Greatsword and you can't use Whirlwind on every mobs (only those against a wall or you lose DPS). So it this situation, and against a large mob (for smite to hit for 12-13K), then the Guardian will have more DPS than the Warrior. But if the fight go long enough so the Warrior use a second time HB, while the guardian can't use Smite while using his sword, then again the Warrior gonna do more DPS.

#141 GuanglaiKangyi

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 06:31 PM

View PostThaddeuz, on 26 February 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

Well, auto-attack from Guan Sword vs Strife Axe seem pretty equal. At least enough close that i can't really say which one is in lead. Strife definitively hit harder 4k vs 3.7k for maximum damage but Sword attack faster. But for burst DPS that just don't compare.

Guan Smite hit for maximum 12-13K if all hit (which rarely happen). And thats all, he didn't use any other burst.

Strife on the other hand got HB for 32k, Whirlwind for 16k and Eviscerate for 16k.

But i have to give Guan a point. Not all the Warriors use an Axe as secondary weapons. They melee mainly with they Greatsword and you can't use Whirlwind on every mobs (only those against a wall or you lose DPS). So it this situation, and against a large mob (for smite to hit for 12-13K), then the Guardian will have more DPS than the Warrior. But if the fight go long enough so the Warrior use a second time HB, while the guardian can't use Smite while using his sword, then again the Warrior gonna do more DPS.

You're looking at 3.7k on the first two swings of the sword, which do about half as much as what the third swing does.  Strife's warrior is hitting around 3.5k-4k (according to him) per swing but he doesn't have a big "final swing" for extra damage.  This is offset by the fact that axe hits faster per swing, but the actual overall DPS is about the same.

I'll also note that you can't just look at the damage of the crits, you have to look at it overall.  Strife himself admitted he has a lower crit chance, which means he has a higher chance of "missing" a crit and not doing any damage at all (which is a bit of an exaggeration, he'll probably still deal about 1k on a non-crit).  In his video he gets lucky and nothing misses, but you can easily imagine his burst falling flat on its face if Eviscerate fails to crit.  For all we know, it did and this is take 2.

#142 Ioflux

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 06:36 PM

View PostThaddeuz, on 26 February 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

Well, auto-attack from Guan Sword vs Strife Axe seem pretty equal. At least enough close that i can't really say which one is in lead. Strife definitively hit harder 4k vs 3.7k for maximum damage but Sword attack faster. But for burst DPS that just don't compare.

Guan Smite hit for maximum 12-13K if all hit (which rarely happen). And thats all, he didn't use any other burst.

Strife on the other hand got HB for 32k, Whirlwind for 16k and Eviscerate for 16k.

But i have to give Guan a point. Not all the Warriors use an Axe as secondary weapons. They melee mainly with they Greatsword and you can't use Whirlwind on every mobs (only those against a wall or you lose DPS). So it this situation, and against a large mob (for smite to hit for 12-13K), then the Guardian will have more DPS than the Warrior. But if the fight go long enough so the Warrior use a second time HB, while the guardian can't use Smite while using his sword, then again the Warrior gonna do more DPS.

Whirlwind is not actually a loss of dps if conjunctioned with bladetrail + rush / Dodge roll (reckless dodge damage). Whirlwind used correctly will hit anywhere near 8-20k+ in a course of ~1s. You spend another 1 second getting back in melee range via BT+Rush or BT+Dodge in which you missed 1 auto attack swing. Damage of BT = 2x auto as well as Rush = 2x auto (roughly). Another factor to take note is that how many bosses can you really smite repeatedly for 15hits. Compare that to the encounters throughout every dungeon, trash + bosses.

The 25 stacks of might are staple. It's part of the party make up. We start our fights with 25 stacks of might because thats how we do it in organized groups. Its not impossible for other groups to do it, just that its harder for them with their party makeups. To say that its unfair our party had it when its accessible to everyone given they spec for it is just silly.

Again: Pick any boss, any encounter and we will challenge a video for it. If you want to use pugs for the challenge, do it at your own risk. Don't go around complaining cause you weren't in your "perfect group", considering it wasn't even a 3guardian 1warrior 1engineer party.

13s =/= 8s.

Edited by Ioflux, 26 February 2013 - 06:39 PM.


#143 Thaddeuz

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 06:58 PM

View PostGuanglaiKangyi, on 26 February 2013 - 06:31 PM, said:

You're looking at 3.7k on the first two swings of the sword, which do about half as much as what the third swing does.  Strife's warrior is hitting around 3.5k-4k (according to him) per swing but he doesn't have a big "final swing" for extra damage.  This is offset by the fact that axe hits faster per swing, but the actual overall DPS is about the same.

I'll also note that you can't just look at the damage of the crits, you have to look at it overall.  Strife himself admitted he has a lower crit chance, which means he has a higher chance of "missing" a crit and not doing any damage at all (which is a bit of an exaggeration, he'll probably still deal about 1k on a non-crit).  In his video he gets lucky and nothing misses, but you can easily imagine his burst falling flat on its face if Eviscerate fails to crit.  For all we know, it did and this is take 2.

I don't know why you keep pushing this. Your and Strife's auto-attack are so close if one of you two is better in DPS, its by a ridiculous amount. Where he outmatch you in DPS is with the burst, he got three you got 1. Your is on the scepter, while he got 2 on one weapons and 1 on the other set so he always have a burst with him. While you can only burst once at the start of the fight (except if you switch back to scepter, but that's gonna decrease your auto-attack.

You should probably stop trying to convince people that this is the best DPS of the game, since this is not. Focus on the strength of your build man. I never played my Guardian full DPS, but this seem to be one if not the best DPS build for a Guardian. Your build may have less DPS in melee than a Warrior, but your build is clearly more adaptable. Strife's build for a warrior in dungeon need some adaptation for Fractal where you are in range for a fair amount of time, while your build is good for melee and range without any change. Does a Warrior build for fractal have the same DPS that melee Build that Strife used? In range, your build probably gonna win, in melee it depend, but you'll be pretty close. Maybe close enough to make a group of Guardian better than a Group of Warrior in High Level Fractal. Maybe 4 Guardian, 1 Mesmer would be better than 2 Guardian, 2 Warriors and 1 Mesmer. I don't know, but these are the battle you could win.

View PostIoflux, on 26 February 2013 - 06:36 PM, said:

Whirlwind is not actually a loss of dps if conjunctioned with bladetrail + rush / Dodge roll (reckless dodge damage). Whirlwind used correctly will hit anywhere near 8-20k+ in a course of ~1s. You spend another 1 second getting back in melee range via BT+Rush or BT+Dodge in which you missed 1 auto attack swing. Damage of BT = 2x auto as well as Rush = 2x auto (roughly).

Well. First i'm on the warrior side here :) . But on the topic, Whirlwind do this damage in a line of about 300 range.  Except against large mobs, or against a wall, not all the attack gonna hit a single target. Also Bladetrail or REckless Dodge do less damage that the auto-attack. Does your rotation do more DPS than the auto-attack?? I have absolutely no idea, this is something to test.

Edited by Thaddeuz, 26 February 2013 - 07:05 PM.


#144 Strife025

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 06:59 PM

View PostGuanglaiKangyi, on 26 February 2013 - 06:31 PM, said:

You're looking at 3.7k on the first two swings of the sword, which do about half as much as what the third swing does.  Strife's warrior is hitting around 3.5k-4k (according to him) per swing but he doesn't have a big "final swing" for extra damage.  This is offset by the fact that axe hits faster per swing, but the actual overall DPS is about the same.

I'll also note that you can't just look at the damage of the crits, you have to look at it overall.  Strife himself admitted he has a lower crit chance, which means he has a higher chance of "missing" a crit and not doing any damage at all (which is a bit of an exaggeration, he'll probably still deal about 1k on a non-crit).  In his video he gets lucky and nothing misses, but you can easily imagine his burst falling flat on its face if Eviscerate fails to crit.  For all we know, it did and this is take 2.

Actually as mentioned in my previous comparison and time stamps of bringing your video into an editing program to add up each individual hit, one of the axe auto attacks did not crit while all 6 of your sword attacks crit which I gave you a benefit of, and I didn't add up any of the bleeding. In addition I gave you the benefit of using your last 2 cycles since they were the strongest, where a 4 warrior group is even more superior because they start the fight with 25 stacks of might and can hit 25 vulnerability extremely fast, where 3 war + 1 guard needs a minimum of 4 seconds for the guard to hit 25 stacks of might.

As far as Evisc goes, it's understandable you're unfamiliar with Warrior since you think Guardian does more melee dps, but there is a trait when running 20-25-0-10-15 that gives an additional 10% crit chance for burst skills, meaning my overall Eviscerate Crit Chance is 103%.
Since you like numbers, the expected damage is 93% * Crit Evisc + 7% * Non-Crit Evisc when you don't have that minor trait though assuming my current crit chance.

Again:
Your last 6 hits (which is the 1x 1x 3x cycle twice) = 27,688 (all crits) damage over 2.369s

I had to take the closest time comparison from my video which was 7 axe hits for 26,589 (1 non-crit) over 1.935s because there was no 8th hit since I used Eviscerate, which does not include the bleed damage or vulnerability that axe brings as well.

This does not include the superior burst of the 100B + WW + Eviscerate.

Edited by Strife025, 26 February 2013 - 07:14 PM.


#145 keithstoneheart

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 07:01 PM

View PostIoflux, on 26 February 2013 - 06:36 PM, said:

...
The 25 stacks of might are staple. It's part of the party make up. We start our fights with 25 stacks of might because thats how we do it in organized groups. Its not impossible for other groups to do it, just that its harder for them with their party makeups. To say that its unfair our party had it when its accessible to everyone given they spec for it is just silly.
...
13s =/= 8s.
Why are we comparing the average kill time of these two parties?
The only fair way to measure the difference between guang's guard/strife's war dps is to use the same group. PUG A killed slower than DedicatedGroup B doesn't mean Pug member 1 did less dps than DedicatedGroup member 2. Given the same buffs, I can see how the guard was doing more.

And neither of them are using the most optimized DPS builds.

#146 Strife025

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 07:16 PM

View PostThaddeuz, on 26 February 2013 - 06:58 PM, said:

Well. First i'm on the warrior side here :) . But on the topic, Whirlwind do this damage in a line of about 300 range.  Except against large mobs, or against a wall, not all the attack gonna hit a single target. Also Bladetrail or REckless Dodge do less damage that the auto-attack. Does your rotation do more DPS than the auto-attack?? I have absolutely no idea, this is something to test.

From my dps war tests I did find that the WW + Bladetrail + Rush combo does more dps then auto attacking.

#147 Thaddeuz

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 07:20 PM

View PostStrife025, on 26 February 2013 - 07:16 PM, said:

From my dps war tests I did find that the WW + Bladetrail + Rush combo does more dps then auto attacking.

Oh thanks. Gonna need to use this now i suppose lol. But how much more DPS. Are we still talking about a burst DPS or you get only 1-2k more in this time frame?

I'm curious because i'm more of a Guardian/Engineer/Elementalist player. I don't put enough time on my Warrior to find out these kind of thing, like i do on my three mains.

Edited by Thaddeuz, 26 February 2013 - 07:20 PM.


#148 Ioflux

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 07:26 PM

View Postkeithstoneheart, on 26 February 2013 - 07:01 PM, said:

Why are we comparing the average kill time of these two parties?
The only fair way to measure the difference between guang's guard/strife's war dps is to use the same group. PUG A killed slower than DedicatedGroup B doesn't mean Pug member 1 did less dps than DedicatedGroup member 2. Given the same buffs, I can see how the guard was doing more.

And neither of them are using the most optimized DPS builds.

We tell him his 3 guardians 1 warrior 1 engineer party is inferior in party dps. He spouts theorycraft as a response. We ask him for a video, he gives us 1 guardian 3 warrior 1 mesmer and calls us out to beat it. So we do, and call him out to beat the faster time. The ball  is on his court to do so. I'm willing to do any boss encounter he's willing to challenge.

#149 Strife025

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 07:29 PM

View PostThaddeuz, on 26 February 2013 - 07:20 PM, said:

Oh thanks. Gonna need to use this now i suppose lol. But how much more DPS. Are we still talking about a burst DPS or you get only 1-2k more in this time frame?

I'm curious because i'm more of a Guardian/Engineer/Elementalist player. I don't put enough time on my Warrior to find out these kind of thing, like i do on my three mains.

I'm not sure on the exact amount, but it was noticeable in terms of time on my dps tests since GS auto attacks are kind of lackluster and the burst from WW, blade trail hitting twice, and rush which does almost twice the damage of an auto attack was pretty noticeable.

#150 Ioflux

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 07:31 PM

View PostThaddeuz, on 26 February 2013 - 07:20 PM, said:

Oh thanks. Gonna need to use this now i suppose lol. But how much more DPS. Are we still talking about a burst DPS or you get only 1-2k more in this time frame?

I'm curious because i'm more of a Guardian/Engineer/Elementalist player. I don't put enough time on my Warrior to find out these kind of thing, like i do on my three mains.

Another fun thing to note is that whirlwind (3 skill warrior gs) does more than usual damage under these conditions due to the nature of whirlwind hitting more times.

1. Target is up against a wall and you whirlwind into the wall.
2. You are immobilized, crippled, chilled due to you doing the same # of hits in less distance.
3. You are in quickness due to you travelling less distance since the animation finishes twice as fast. Less distance gives more chances to hit more multiple hits.




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