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#31 Wicklow

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 01:16 AM

I'm biased because I play a necro but I'm convinced they have everyone beat in range dps.  The most damage I have done on my necro was a Dwayna run with a Mesmer and three zerker warriors, I pretty much had never ending fury(not that it's hard to achieve 70% uptime anyways with deathshroud and a simple macro) and 25 stacks of might( I usually keep an average of 10 every 24 sec or about 4 up nonstop) regardless, my bleeds were ticking for 178 and I had 20-25 on her constantly, you do the math okay I will, that's between 4000 and 4500 dps, and that's just from bleeds, now consider the damage I'm doing from poison, okay add another 350 per sec from that, and then scepter auto attack to keep things simple is about another 600 dps.  So now for sake of being conservative I'm doing 5000 dps.  Oh but wait, there is more, the flesh golem, which does about another 1000 dps.  So when you are grouped with a warrior that uses for great justice on cool down you can average 6000 dps.

Now I know what you are saying, what about without a warrior.  Now I'm doing this math in my head cause I'm in a bathroom on an iPad (so be kind), but my bleeds tick for about 140 with about 20 ticks up constantly, so maybe only about 4800 dps total, flesh golem and all.

So beat that.... 4800 solo dps and close to (possible over) 6000 dps in groups with group might.  

I think necro is overlooked because all our damage is little teeny tiny number but they add up to HUGE overall dps.

But seriously I want to see some of you post your raw damage to compare.

Edit: yes berserker axe/mace warrior is highest dps in game, I don't care what anyone says, you just cannot beat it so don't even try to argue.  If you think otherwise go play one, then you will know, but they are melee and this was about ranged... So... Yeah

Edited by Wicklow, 20 February 2013 - 01:21 AM.


#32 AzureRogue

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 02:32 AM

View PostWestwater, on 20 February 2013 - 12:46 AM, said:

Or a guardian could just wall of reflection and have them kill themselves.  They don't have a lot of health, and after they go down that aoe damage doesn't help kill the boss any faster.

Yea, that's a great strategy - but 1) it assumes you'll always have a guardian (probably true) and 2) they won't wipe themselves that quickly in high level fractals and 3) you need above average coordination to actually get all party members on the appropriate side of the wall 100% of the time.

As for Puissance, 7-8 is what I maintain in Heart of the Mists with 0% increased boon duration and only auto-attacking.  If you include a rotation of fire attacks it goes up to only about 8-9.  Of course if you have any sort of boon duration it becomes significantly better.

#33 Westwater

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 05:31 AM

Wall of reflection actually has a much bigger hitbox than the animation.  If you stand inside the shield, every ranged attack that goes towards you from any given side will be reflected.

#34 GuanglaiKangyi

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 07:48 AM

View PostWicklow, on 20 February 2013 - 01:16 AM, said:

I'm biased because I play a necro but I'm convinced they have everyone beat in range dps.  The most damage I have done on my necro was a Dwayna run with a Mesmer and three zerker warriors, I pretty much had never ending fury(not that it's hard to achieve 70% uptime anyways with deathshroud and a simple macro) and 25 stacks of might( I usually keep an average of 10 every 24 sec or about 4 up nonstop) regardless, my bleeds were ticking for 178 and I had 20-25 on her constantly, you do the math okay I will, that's between 4000 and 4500 dps, and that's just from bleeds, now consider the damage I'm doing from poison, okay add another 350 per sec from that, and then scepter auto attack to keep things simple is about another 600 dps.  So now for sake of being conservative I'm doing 5000 dps.  Oh but wait, there is more, the flesh golem, which does about another 1000 dps.  So when you are grouped with a warrior that uses for great justice on cool down you can average 6000 dps.

Now I know what you are saying, what about without a warrior.  Now I'm doing this math in my head cause I'm in a bathroom on an iPad (so be kind), but my bleeds tick for about 140 with about 20 ticks up constantly, so maybe only about 4800 dps total, flesh golem and all.

So beat that.... 4800 solo dps and close to (possible over) 6000 dps in groups with group might.  

I think necro is overlooked because all our damage is little teeny tiny number but they add up to HUGE overall dps.

But seriously I want to see some of you post your raw damage to compare.

Edit: yes berserker axe/mace warrior is highest dps in game, I don't care what anyone says, you just cannot beat it so don't even try to argue.  If you think otherwise go play one, then you will know, but they are melee and this was about ranged... So... Yeah

I will argue it and my argument is that axe/mace is shit DPS and you're blind if you can't see this.  Maybe if you're comparing it to necro DPS but lol.

I also find it highly unlikely that you're ticking for 178 per bleed.  Base bleed is 42 per tick plus 1 per 20 condition damage.  That means you'd have to have 2720 condition damage which is just lol.  Rabid gives you about 1k, 25 stacks of might gives 875, maybe 200 from runes, 150 from oil, 70 from food and 250 from full Corruption stacks.  That's barely 2500 with everything maxed to the roof which will put you at 167 bleed ticks.  Last I checked Necro can only maintain about 15 bleeds by itself so you're looking at about 2.5k/ max, plus maybe 500 tops from direct damage (which is generous for necro) and you're looking at 3k/s all together.  A grenade engineer would output much higher DPS than that just looking at condition damage, and at longer range and with higher direct damage, given that they have equivalent stats, better direct and can stack 25 bleeds solo.

Also, in a situation like that (all foods, max stacks of might and fury, max Bloodlust stacks) a Guardian would hit over 5k/s with scepter.

#35 Rulerdragon

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 11:32 AM

View PostGuanglaiKangyi, on 20 February 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:

I will argue it and my argument is that axe/mace is shit DPS and you're blind if you can't see this.  Maybe if you're comparing it to necro DPS but lol.

I also find it highly unlikely that you're ticking for 178 per bleed.  Base bleed is 42 per tick plus 1 per 20 condition damage.  That means you'd have to have 2720 condition damage which is just lol.  Rabid gives you about 1k, 25 stacks of might gives 875, maybe 200 from runes, 150 from oil, 70 from food and 250 from full Corruption stacks.  That's barely 2500 with everything maxed to the roof which will put you at 167 bleed ticks.  Last I checked Necro can only maintain about 15 bleeds by itself so you're looking at about 2.5k/ max, plus maybe 500 tops from direct damage (which is generous for necro) and you're looking at 3k/s all together.  A grenade engineer would output much higher DPS than that just looking at condition damage, and at longer range and with higher direct damage, given that they have equivalent stats, better direct and can stack 25 bleeds solo.

Also, in a situation like that (all foods, max stacks of might and fury, max Bloodlust stacks) a Guardian would hit over 5k/s with scepter.

Just out curiosity for you guardian is top dps in everithing right? case you refuse to accept any arguments otherwise. And if you honestly belive aoe doesnt mather i would like to know what partys you are running in fractals and what level you reached.

#36 AzureRogue

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 03:04 PM

View PostGuanglaiKangyi, on 20 February 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:

Also, in a situation like that (all foods, max stacks of might and fury, max Bloodlust stacks) a Guardian would hit over 5k/s with scepter.

Please show me a screenshot of a 4150 scepter hit on some reasonable level 80 enemy, because that's what you just claimed.

EDIT: Oh wait, you're probably AGAIN assuming that smite will hit with all 15 hits (rare, since most enemies are NOT huge and, surprise, move around).

Edited by AzureRogue, 20 February 2013 - 03:05 PM.


#37 GuanglaiKangyi

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 03:20 PM

View PostAzureRogue, on 20 February 2013 - 03:04 PM, said:

Please show me a screenshot of a 4150 scepter hit on some reasonable level 80 enemy, because that's what you just claimed.

EDIT: Oh wait, you're probably AGAIN assuming that smite will hit with all 15 hits (rare, since most enemies are NOT huge and, surprise, move around).

Per second, not per hit.  Getting 5k per hit with scepter would be pretty ridiculous.

Also, most enemies worth ranging are in fact pretty huge.  I can't think of any offhand that aren't except maybe Mossman, but he moves around a lot in general anyway so elementalist is pretty bad for him too.

#38 Strife025

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 06:46 PM

View PostGuanglaiKangyi, on 20 February 2013 - 03:20 PM, said:

Per second, not per hit.  Getting 5k per hit with scepter would be pretty ridiculous.

Also, most enemies worth ranging are in fact pretty huge.  I can't think of any offhand that aren't except maybe Mossman, but he moves around a lot in general anyway so elementalist is pretty bad for him too.

So basically that sucks because Warriors auto attack for 4k every .6 second with natural cleave on Axe or 25-30K 100B over 3.5s.

#39 Thaddeuz

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 07:02 PM

View PostStrife025, on 20 February 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

So basically that sucks because Warriors auto attack for 4k every .6 second with natural cleave on Axe or 25-30K 100B over 3.5s.

I don't think its far to compare the Specter DPS of a Guardian vs the Melee DPS of a Warrior ;)  We all know the Melee DPS of a Warrior is the highest DPS of the game, its what the Warrior excel at.

#40 Strife025

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 07:06 PM

View PostThaddeuz, on 20 February 2013 - 07:02 PM, said:

I don't think its far to compare the Specter DPS of a Guardian vs the Melee DPS of a Warrior ;)  We all know the Melee DPS of a Warrior is the highest DPS of the game, its what the Warrior excel at.

oh I agree, but apparently Guan thinks Guardian is the highest dps class in the game and a 3 guardian/1 warrior group would do more dps then a 1 guardian/3 warrior group except he can never post a video proving it.

#41 GuanglaiKangyi

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 07:12 PM

View PostStrife025, on 20 February 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

So basically that sucks because Warriors auto attack for 4k every .6 second with natural cleave on Axe or 25-30K 100B over 3.5s.

Scepter hits like 3 times a second on average, dude.  That would give you like 15k/s on scepter if it got 5k per hit on Orb and Smite.

Also I would like to see what sort of build you're running that hits 4k per swing on axe every .6s.

#42 Ioflux

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 07:20 PM

View PostGuanglaiKangyi, on 20 February 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

Scepter hits like 3 times a second on average, dude.  That would give you like 15k/s on scepter if it got 5k per hit on Orb and Smite.

Also I would like to see what sort of build you're running that hits 4k per swing on axe every .6s.

1. It does not hit 3 times per second
2. 4k swings on axe is pretty common when you're in groups consisting of constant 15-25stacks of might and ~15 stacks of vuln. along with an extra 2-8% from having empowered modified by guardian + mesmer buffs.

The world of possibilities suddenly got larger when you learn the full benefits of organized groups.

#43 Thaddeuz

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 07:20 PM

View PostStrife025, on 20 February 2013 - 07:06 PM, said:

oh I agree, but apparently Guan thinks Guardian is the highest dps class in the game and a 3 guardian/1 warrior group would do more dps then a 1 guardian/3 warrior group except he can never post a video proving it.

Really :huh: Didn't notice that one. I assumed he was just saying that he could do more DPS with the Guardian's Scepter vs Condition Neco. At least in this topic. Maybe he said something about Guardian vs Warrior DPS in another topic, if its the case.......


View PostGuanglaiKangyi, on 20 February 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

Scepter hits like 3 times a second on average, dude.  That would give you like 15k/s on scepter if it got 5k per hit on Orb and Smite.

The actual speed of attack on the auto-attack of the scepter is 0.8 second. This give you about 1.25 attack per second not 3.

Edited by Thaddeuz, 20 February 2013 - 07:25 PM.


#44 Ioflux

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 07:27 PM

View PostThaddeuz, on 20 February 2013 - 07:20 PM, said:

Really :huh: Didn't notice that one. I assumed he was just saying that he could do more DPS with the Guardian's Scepter vs Condition Neco. At least in this topic. Maybe he said something about Guardian vs Warrior DPS in another topic, if its the case.......




The post is in his "ultimate guardian" build cause he said so. No videos, just all jargon.

#45 GuanglaiKangyi

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 07:29 PM

View PostStrife025, on 20 February 2013 - 07:06 PM, said:

oh I agree, but apparently Guan thinks Guardian is the highest dps class in the game and a 3 guardian/1 warrior group would do more dps then a 1 guardian/3 warrior group except he can never post a video proving it.

it used to be higher.  The Elusive Power nerf puts Guardians at a slight disadvantage now.

Not that you'd ever run a 3 war/1 guard group anywhere outside of CoF anyway.  Guardians have better ranged DPS options, as we've established (it's basically 3-5k/s per second on scepter versus virtually zero on rifle) and they last longer at close range even with full glass build.  You still want the one warrior for Banner of Discipline but 3 doesn't give any more fury than one.

Also, I'm not the guy who runs a tank build in dungeons because he's afraid of dying and justifies it by pretending to be DPS.

EDIT: Actually, I don't know why you'd even run 3 warriors, 1 guard in the first place.  Guards don't give any group buffs that warriors don't, they're raw DPS.

Edited by GuanglaiKangyi, 20 February 2013 - 07:30 PM.


#46 Strife025

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 07:29 PM

View PostGuanglaiKangyi, on 20 February 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

Scepter hits like 3 times a second on average, dude.  That would give you like 15k/s on scepter if it got 5k per hit on Orb and Smite.

Also I would like to see what sort of build you're running that hits 4k per swing on axe every .6s.

You just said 5k per second, not hit, because 5k per hit is ridiculous. I'm saying Axe warrior does more then that per second and provides more group dps as well.

Not every single mob is going to hit 4k, depends on mob type obviously, but here is one of my guides from warrior perspective, typical axe/mace dps build with my guide in the warrior forum, this was before I moved my last 2 knights pieces to berserker as well. All you need to do is show a run on guardian perspective with higher dps, although I highly doubt it's true.



#47 AzureRogue

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 07:50 PM

View PostGuanglaiKangyi, on 20 February 2013 - 03:20 PM, said:

Per second, not per hit.  Getting 5k per hit with scepter would be pretty ridiculous.

Also, most enemies worth ranging are in fact pretty huge.  I can't think of any offhand that aren't except maybe Mossman, but he moves around a lot in general anyway so elementalist is pretty bad for him too.

You'll notice I didn't ask for a screenshot of a 5k hit - if you read my post...  I asked for 4150 (which is 5k times the attack speed of a scepter...1 attack per .83 seconds).

#48 Ioflux

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 07:50 PM

View PostGuanglaiKangyi, on 20 February 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

it used to be higher.  The Elusive Power nerf puts Guardians at a slight disadvantage now.

Not that you'd ever run a 3 war/1 guard group anywhere outside of CoF anyway.  Guardians have better ranged DPS options, as we've established (it's basically 3-5k/s per second on scepter versus virtually zero on rifle) and they last longer at close range even with full glass build.  You still want the one warrior for Banner of Discipline but 3 doesn't give any more fury than one.

Also, I'm not the guy who runs a tank build in dungeons because he's afraid of dying and justifies it by pretending to be DPS.

EDIT: Actually, I don't know why you'd even run 3 warriors, 1 guard in the first place.  Guards don't give any group buffs that warriors don't, they're raw DPS.

Man please tell me where a warrior can put party stability, party protection, party wide reflects consistently. Is it necessary? Situationally yes. But you seem to believe guardian dps > warrior dps which you keep throwing numbers around to support it but no actual footage to show that its actually happening.

Edited by Ioflux, 20 February 2013 - 07:51 PM.


#49 GuanglaiKangyi

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 08:05 PM

I'm not interested in your shitty videos of you doing shit anyone with half a brain and a semi-decent party can do.  How about YOU back it up with some numbers?  As far as I can tell you've never offered any refutation of my numbers beyond PLEASE LOOK VIDEO I GOOD AT GAME.

In fact, I'm pretty sure I disproved your myth of high axe DPS in a different thread and you yourself admitted it wasn't that high.  Axe DPS is actually pretty average; it gets a good amount of damage solo because warriors stack might, vuln and fury pretty well but if your entire party is 25 might, vuln and 100% fury already that advantage disappears.  I'll crunch the numbers for you, even though I know you'll ignore them:

Berserker Axe/Mace, 30/10/0/10/20: Berserker's Power, Dual Wielding, Axe Mastery, Heightened Focus, Empowered (assuming 5 boons)
Divinity Runes and Sigil of Force, Sigil of Accuracy
25 stacks of might = +40%
25 stacks of vuln = +25%
Crit chance = 81% (with Fury and Accuracy), crit damage = 105%, overall crit modifier = +126%
Traits and Force sigil = +36%

Auto: 609, 1300, 2070 per 3.75s = 1061/sec
Eviscerate: 1766 total, 705 net, 64/sec
Total = 1125 base, 6051 with all buffs

Guardian scepter: 20/30/20/0/0, Fiery Wrath, Scepter Power, Radiant Power, Retributive Armor, Right-Hand Strength
Divinity Runes and Sigil of Force, Sigil of Accuracy
Crit chance: 98% (with Fury and Accuracy), crit damage +95% --> crit modifier = +142%
Damage boosts: 10% (Fiery Wrath), 10% (Radiant Power), 5% (Scepter Power), 5% (Sigil of Force) = +42%
Might and vuln = 42%, 25%

Orb of Wrath: 503 per .83s = 606/s
Smite: 3810 per .83s, 6.83s CD = +469/s
Total = 606 + 469 = 1075 base, 6557 with all buffs

So there you go.

Edited by GuanglaiKangyi, 20 February 2013 - 08:06 PM.


#50 Thaddeuz

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 08:43 PM

I could be wrong but I think there is some error in your numbers.

For Warriors attack modifier from trait and sigil.
- Berserker's Power = 12%
- Dual Wielding = 5%
- Empowered (5 boons) = 5 x 2% = 10%
- Sigil of Force = 5%

Total = 32% and not 36%. What do i miss?

Same thing for Guardian. You put 10%+10%+5%+5% = 42%?? Did you forgot to put another bonus because its suppose to be 30%.

Also why 25 Stack of Might give +40% damage for the Warrior and +42% damage for the guardian?

Why the Guardian have 17% more critical chance? Again i can miss something but you have the same gear of each of them so the only thing that change are trait. The warrior have 200 precision pts less for trait line. And the guardian have also retributive armor. You have 916 basic toughness +200 toughness from your trait and 60 toughness from rune of divinity. 5% x (916+200+60) = 59 precision pts. Total the guardian gonna have 259pts of precision more than the warriors for 259/21 = 12.3% critical chance not 17%.

This is just the error i ''think'' i saw. Maybe i myself made some error. But the truth is, its really hard to put calculation for dps. Everybody make mistake and seriously it can't be trusted. Hell i learn i can't even trust my own math on that. Too much variable. That is why the only real way to prove your point to by actually showing your number in-game.

#51 Strife025

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 08:49 PM

View PostGuanglaiKangyi, on 20 February 2013 - 08:05 PM, said:

I'm not interested in your shitty videos of you doing shit anyone with half a brain and a semi-decent party can do.  How about YOU back it up with some numbers?  As far as I can tell you've never offered any refutation of my numbers beyond PLEASE LOOK VIDEO I GOOD AT GAME.

In fact, I'm pretty sure I disproved your myth of high axe DPS in a different thread and you yourself admitted it wasn't that high.  Axe DPS is actually pretty average; it gets a good amount of damage solo because warriors stack might, vuln and fury pretty well but if your entire party is 25 might, vuln and 100% fury already that advantage disappears.  I'll crunch the numbers for you, even though I know you'll ignore them:

Berserker Axe/Mace, 30/10/0/10/20: Berserker's Power, Dual Wielding, Axe Mastery, Heightened Focus, Empowered (assuming 5 boons)
Divinity Runes and Sigil of Force, Sigil of Accuracy
25 stacks of might = +40%
25 stacks of vuln = +25%
Crit chance = 81% (with Fury and Accuracy), crit damage = 105%, overall crit modifier = +126%
Traits and Force sigil = +36%

Auto: 609, 1300, 2070 per 3.75s = 1061/sec
Eviscerate: 1766 total, 705 net, 64/sec
Total = 1125 base, 6051 with all buffs

Guardian scepter: 20/30/20/0/0, Fiery Wrath, Scepter Power, Radiant Power, Retributive Armor, Right-Hand Strength
Divinity Runes and Sigil of Force, Sigil of Accuracy
Crit chance: 98% (with Fury and Accuracy), crit damage +95% --> crit modifier = +142%
Damage boosts: 10% (Fiery Wrath), 10% (Radiant Power), 5% (Scepter Power), 5% (Sigil of Force) = +42%
Might and vuln = 42%, 25%

Orb of Wrath: 503 per .83s = 606/s
Smite: 3810 per .83s, 6.83s CD = +469/s
Total = 606 + 469 = 1075 base, 6557 with all buffs

So there you go.

Actually I'm pretty sure I said GS dps is better in certain situations when you have optimal 100B rotations and push a mob against a well for WW.

Yea bro, I'm afraid of dieing on guardian which is why I run a "tank" build, even though 2/3rds of my videos are in full berserker warriors and mesmers and I have a solo GL video. I'm really "afraid of dieing", it's obviously not because we use our guardian as an anchor to maximize dps on the other 4 classes, it just couldn't be that.

Also it's funny you think groups don't run 3 warriors outside of CoE, even though 90% of my videos have 3 warriors, including 3/4 Arah paths. Wasn't that the arguement for CoF 1 before as well, fact is, you can run 3 warriors and speed clear every single named dungeon. For high fractals, its 2 guard/2 warrior for the reflection uptime.

As far as your numbers, any group is going to have food buff + discipline banner, making the crit chance in your guardian redundant. My warrior has 89% base crit chance. And of course, you fail to include anything related to vulnerability that is realistic even though 3 warriors keep up ~15% vuln on bosses and 25% during timewarp which contributes way more to group dps + shout + banners then anything guardian brings. Please tell me how you get 25 stack vulnerability in a Guardian group. And the fact that 100% fury uptime you need at least 2 warriors because picking up and dropping a banner to cast fury isn't realistic in speed runs and is going to slow you down a majority of the time.

Not to mention Smite won't hit with every attack and Orb is single target which sucks for bursting down trash mobs.

Again post a video of your awesome guardian dps and prove that 3 guard/1 war is better then 1 guard/3 war, but you can't can you. See the differences in posting a bunch of numbers full of errors and actually proving what's superior in an actual dungeon run are way different, which is why your calculations are always a joke since you never actually back it up with footage. In actual real speed run groups, there is almost no scenario where a scepter guardian does more functional dps then a melee warrior.

Edited by Strife025, 20 February 2013 - 09:03 PM.


#52 Ioflux

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 09:16 PM

A video is a "number". An unrefutable number that states "how long it took to complete" said task. It took "this" party "XX:XX" number to complete. The olympics use these same numbers to award gold/silver/medals. I must of missed something where jargon spouting was more proof than actual stopwatches.

#53 GuanglaiKangyi

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 09:55 PM

View PostThaddeuz, on 20 February 2013 - 08:43 PM, said:

I could be wrong but I think there is some error in your numbers.

For Warriors attack modifier from trait and sigil.
- Berserker's Power = 12%
- Dual Wielding = 5%
- Empowered (5 boons) = 5 x 2% = 10%
- Sigil of Force = 5%

Total = 32% and not 36%. What do i miss?

Same thing for Guardian. You put 10%+10%+5%+5% = 42%?? Did you forgot to put another bonus because its suppose to be 30%.

Also why 25 Stack of Might give +40% damage for the Warrior and +42% damage for the guardian?

Why the Guardian have 17% more critical chance? Again i can miss something but you have the same gear of each of them so the only thing that change are trait. The warrior have 200 precision pts less for trait line. And the guardian have also retributive armor. You have 916 basic toughness +200 toughness from your trait and 60 toughness from rune of divinity. 5% x (916+200+60) = 59 precision pts. Total the guardian gonna have 259pts of precision more than the warriors for 259/21 = 12.3% critical chance not 17%.

This is just the error i ''think'' i saw. Maybe i myself made some error. But the truth is, its really hard to put calculation for dps. Everybody make mistake and seriously it can't be trusted. Hell i learn i can't even trust my own math on that. Too much variable. That is why the only real way to prove your point to by actually showing your number in-game.

Trait damage boosts compound.  So if you have two 10% damage boosts they will stack multiplicatively, not additively, for 21% overall damage boost.  And yeah, I typoed that guardian trait number when I copy-pasted it from earlier in this thread and changed it to fit the 25 might/vuln/fury assumption, it should be 33%.  The end number should still be accurate because I crunch all the trait boosts separately to minimize rounding errors.  I could check it again but honestly it wouldn't make that big of a difference either way and I'm feeling lazy.  Maybe later.

As for the other stuff:

1) Guardian has RH Strength (+15% crit chance) and 350 or so precision from traits.  Warriors have Heightened Focus (+9%) and 100 precision from traits, so a difference of about 17% sounds about right.
2) Guardian has a lower power stat before might so might makes a bigger incremental difference.  To use an extreme example, a character with no extra power at all has 916 base, so 25 stacks of might (875 power) would almost double damage output.

As for Strife's nonsense, 1 engineer and 1 warrior maintains 15 stacks of vuln on a boss and 25 on trash mobs too.  So hurr.  But yeah, you wanted to compare damage so I gave you a damage comparison then you got pissy and started throwing in a bunch of other random crap in there.  If we're gonna play "my class melees better than ur range" game why don't you post a video of your longbow warrior outdpsing a greatsword guardian, since you like videos so much?

Edited by GuanglaiKangyi, 20 February 2013 - 09:55 PM.


#54 Strife025

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 10:19 PM

View PostGuanglaiKangyi, on 20 February 2013 - 09:55 PM, said:

Trait damage boosts compound.  So if you have two 10% damage boosts they will stack multiplicatively, not additively, for 21% overall damage boost.  And yeah, I typoed that guardian trait number when I copy-pasted it from earlier in this thread and changed it to fit the 25 might/vuln/fury assumption, it should be 33%.  The end number should still be accurate because I crunch all the trait boosts separately to minimize rounding errors.  I could check it again but honestly it wouldn't make that big of a difference either way and I'm feeling lazy.  Maybe later.

As for the other stuff:

1) Guardian has RH Strength (+15% crit chance) and 350 or so precision from traits.  Warriors have Heightened Focus (+9%) and 100 precision from traits, so a difference of about 17% sounds about right.
2) Guardian has a lower power stat before might so might makes a bigger incremental difference.  To use an extreme example, a character with no extra power at all has 916 base, so 25 stacks of might (875 power) would almost double damage output.

As for Strife's nonsense, 1 engineer and 1 warrior maintains 15 stacks of vuln on a boss and 25 on trash mobs too.  So hurr.  But yeah, you wanted to compare damage so I gave you a damage comparison then you got pissy and started throwing in a bunch of other random crap in there.  If we're gonna play "my class melees better than ur range" game why don't you post a video of your longbow warrior outdpsing a greatsword guardian, since you like videos so much?

oh okay, so now 3 guardians/1 warrior/1 engi is better then 1 guardian/3 warrior/1 mesmer, yea let me know when you get a video of that up.

Use another weapon then, I don't care if it's a scepter. Obviously warrior longbow is shit, that's as dumb a comparison as a Scepter guardian doing more dps then a melee warrior, but hey, you're the one who wanted to crunch numbers. All that "other crap" is actually the only thing that's relevant, real dungeon footage of a speed run, not a spreadsheet which anyone who actually speed runs can tell you is full of bs.

I've seen so much stupid stuff come out of your mouth it's insane which is why everyone calls you out, including trying to argue that guardians were better then mesmers in CoF, berserker mesmers do "no damage", how most dungeons you can't run 3 warriors, how Guardians do more damage then GS Warriors because 100B isn't reliable, how apparently 3 guardians offer more dps then 3 warriors now, how a global dodge fix to all classes was a massive nerf to guardian in your crybaby thread, and my favorite stupid quote from you "“A sword guardian with fury does so much damage in Timewarp it makes axe warriors look like axe necromancers. If your priority is burning down the Slave Driver and Effigy fast, you only need one warrior for fury stacking. The rest should be sword/greatsword guardians. The sheer amount of damage symbol > whirl > bind > swap > 1h sword auto spam deals in Timewarp is so huge it should be considered a sploit and we should be banned for even talking about it.”

Yea I'm still waiting for that video also.

See footage is the simplest thing to prove your point, the time it takes to kill one boss, do one event, or clear one dungeon is all that matters in a real game setting, but apparently it's too difficult for you to push one button to record then upload it though.

Edited by Strife025, 20 February 2013 - 10:30 PM.


#55 GuanglaiKangyi

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 10:35 PM

View PostStrife025, on 20 February 2013 - 10:19 PM, said:

oh okay, so now 3 guardians/1 warrior/1 engi is better then 1 guardian/3 warrior/1 mesmer, yea let me know when you get a video of that up.

Use another weapon then, I don't care if it's a scepter. Obviously warrior longbow is shit, that's as dumb a comparison as a Scepter guardian doing more dps then a melee warrior, but hey, you're the one who wanted to crunch numbers. All that "other crap" is actually the only thing that's relevant, real dungeon footage of a speed run, not a spreadsheet which anyone who actually speed runs can tell you is full of bs.

I've seen so much stupid stuff come out of your mouth it's insane which is why everyone calls you out, including trying to argue that guardians were better then mesmers in CoF, berserker mesmers do "no damage", how most dungeons you can't run 3 warriors, how Guardians do more damage then GS Warriors because 100B isn't reliable, how apparently 3 guardians offer more dps then 3 warriors now, how a global dodge fix to all classes was a massive nerf to guardian in your crybaby thread, and my favorite stupid quote from you "“A sword guardian with fury does so much damage in Timewarp it makes axe warriors look like axe necromancers. If your priority is burning down the Slave Driver and Effigy fast, you only need one warrior for fury stacking. The rest should be sword/greatsword guardians. The sheer amount of damage symbol > whirl > bind > swap > 1h sword auto spam deals in Timewarp is so huge it should be considered a sploit and we should be banned for even talking about it.”

Yea I'm still waiting for that video also.

See footage is the simplest thing to prove your point, the time it takes to kill one boss, do one event, or clear one dungeon is all that matters in a real game setting, but apparently it's too difficult for you to push one button to record then upload it though.

You just seem like a sore loser because I have numbers and you have nothing.  If you don't want to believe the hard evidence then there's not a whole lot else I can do for you.  I'm pretty much done with babysitting you constantly.

Also, all those statements above are true.  You clearly don't know shit about this game if you're even remotely doubting them.

#56 Strife025

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 10:57 PM

View PostGuanglaiKangyi, on 20 February 2013 - 10:35 PM, said:

You just seem like a sore loser because I have numbers and you have nothing.  If you don't want to believe the hard evidence then there's not a whole lot else I can do for you.  I'm pretty much done with babysitting you constantly.

Also, all those statements above are true.  You clearly don't know shit about this game if you're even remotely doubting them.

Actually you seem like someone who continually posts bs which no one takes seriously. Hard evidence is called video footage, this is a video game, not a research paper. I'm not sure what I'm a sore loser about, all it takes is you posting a video of your guardian doing superior dps or whatever group comp you want doing things faster, until then there is no "losing" because you haven't proved anything. I've changed many things in builds and re-recorded multiple dungeon guides since release, it's called actual gameplay of your "theories" to actually prove them, you know kind of like a scientific experiment where you actually show the experiement i.e. killing things and doing dungeons. I don't care about being wrong, my youtube page is there to provide speed run guides and tricks to completing all dungeons, not to prove that guardians do better or worse dps then warriors. Myself and many people have already concluded that fact from running 1000s of dungeons and playing both classes hundreds of hours, again it's not that hard to record something to prove your point.

It's blatantly obvious in many instances, including CoF1 which is sooo easy to test that you are full of bs. It's obvious you clearly don't know shit about this game since you have no real world evidence backing anything up even though countless people who actually speed run daily keep calling you out. Again, apparently it's too hard for you to show footage of a 10 second slave driver and 20 second effigy fight for the Mesmer vs Guardian example. Not to mention everything else Mesmer brings for speed running over Guardian for a very short, higher burst, portal beneficial dungeon path, if we're going to use that specific example.

Maybe someday you'll actually take your theory crafting into the real world and prove that things are actually superior when actually running dungeons. Until then I'll keep posting videos which prove things, and you keep posting bs numbers and comments that make you look like a scrub, sounds good.

Edited by Strife025, 20 February 2013 - 11:10 PM.


#57 Rulerdragon

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 12:11 AM

Strife025 dont bother he refuses to accept any tipe of argument for anything other that hes view of the world, continuing to reply will do no one any good.

#58 Ninja Battle Lion

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 01:50 AM

View PostStrife025, on 20 February 2013 - 10:57 PM, said:

TL;DR: put up or shut up

I heartily agree. btw Strife your vids helped me a lot.

#59 AzureRogue

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 02:58 AM

View PostIoflux, on 20 February 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

A video is a "number". An unrefutable number that states "how long it took to complete" said task. It took "this" party "XX:XX" number to complete. The olympics use these same numbers to award gold/silver/medals. I must of missed something where jargon spouting was more proof than actual stopwatches.

I think I might love you :D

#60 GuanglaiKangyi

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 05:42 AM

Okay, I take everything back.  Screw warriors.  Screw guardians.

Engineers.  ENGINEERS.

The DPS on this build I just threw together.  Holy shit.  This makes greatsword warriors look like greatsword rangers.  I'm not even gonna say what it is, if it becomes common knowledge it'll definitely get nerfed.




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