36 replies to this topic

[Nabuko Darayon]

So recently I've been talking to some friends how they regret going for a specific Legendary but unless they knew 1000 of people there was no way they could maybe trade it for another, but rather pay a fee and put it up for Auction then if it sells they had to save up some more money (because of the TP provision) to get themselves another Legendary that fits their style.

This could also be applied to any other part of trading goods rather then just gold. I think it's a missed opportunity and a step back from the original game. In GW1 you had the Trading system rather then Auction system, but you had guru's Auction house where you could place your items and people could've actually asked if maybe you wanted another item in return, or pay in ectos rather then cash only.
This is what's missing in GW2, a true Trading system, and at this point it's still uncertain if they offer support for items lost in scams (You send first and you get none back).
If anything they really should work more on the Trading Post to become tradeable and not just put up for Auction.

As a GW1 Veteran I can say that in my history I have traded and accepted more offers in goods then pure cash and still made the best of it.

What do you guys think?

Edited by unraveled, 08 February 2013 - 11:31 PM.
Moved to TP.

[tfckmk988]

i doubt it because it increases the risk of ppl getting scammed and by not having one and not designing mail with item trading in mind they don't have to provide customer support for trying to trade through mail as they can just say well we warned you that it was super risky to trade in mail and not TP

[Nabuko Darayon]

tfckmk988, on 08 February 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:

i doubt it because it increases the risk of ppl getting scammed and by not having one and not designing mail with item trading in mind they don't have to provide customer support for trying to trade through mail as they can just say well we warned you that it was super risky to trade in mail and not TP

But there's no trading option in Trading Post, just selling/auctioning option. You can't trade your item for something else. They should've just named it Auction house and not Trading post

[Lordkrall]

The TP is also supposed to be a goldsink.
Trading items directly does make that much harder.

[Nabuko Darayon]

Lordkrall, on 08 February 2013 - 03:54 PM, said:

The TP is also supposed to be a goldsink.
Trading items directly does make that much harder.

You can still have the fee for trading items...

[Lordkrall]

Nabuko Darayon, on 08 February 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

You can still have the fee for trading items...

Of course, but the fee is currently decided based on how much you request for the item. How would that work if you don't request gold for it? How would they decide what the fee should be in that case?

[Zan7]

You "trade" your items for money and vice versa.

[Nabuko Darayon]

Lordkrall, on 08 February 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

Of course, but the fee is currently decided based on how much you request for the item. How would that work if you don't request gold for it? How would they decide what the fee should be in that case?

Well I bet those computer wiz can make a code that works for that too. SHouldn't be hard compared to the complexity of the coding done in this game anyway.

[Lordkrall]

Nabuko Darayon, on 08 February 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

Well I bet those computer wiz can make a code that works for that too. SHouldn't be hard compared to the complexity of the coding done in this game anyway.

Probably, but why waste the time when the current system works?

[Coren]

Well.in guild.wars 1 the gold.sinks.were.ectos, obsidian shards, rubies, sapphires and mini pets. Heck if something was too.expensive you'd pay only.in ectos. The price check.was easily done by going to the.rare materials trader and make your sale.roughly 1k lower, because the sale of your mats to the trader was often 2k lower (in the case of.ectos)

The cash sink was in and we were able to.trade items for other items without resorting to money. Roughly you could get 2 ectos for the price of 3 obsidian shards and physically trade the amount. You could also.trade 2-3 common minis for 1 purple rarity mini.

Scamms did happen yes, but it was up to you to.keep informed.

[Nabuko Darayon]

Lordkrall, on 08 February 2013 - 04:11 PM, said:

Probably, but why waste the time when the current system works?

This system only works for gold hoaders. The thing that I find here as a flaw is the lack of options and alternatives and the lack of correcting your mistakes. I made an example with Legendaries but there are a lot of more examples where people just don't like a specific skin by the time they make it and just want to trade it for something else without having to do it all over again and or wait till that super expensive weapon gets sold which could take months.

[ShezuTsukai]

The TP is misnamed. It truly is a consignment auction. People put their stuff up to sell and the house takes its cut.

As compared to GW1 the TP is very unfriendly to players. But that is how it was designed in the "new" business model to sustain profits through the Gem (cash) Shop in order to afford extremely overpriced items in the TP.

If we truly had a TP Anet would not make as much money.

[tfckmk988]

Nabuko Darayon, on 08 February 2013 - 04:24 PM, said:

This system only works for gold hoaders. The thing that I find here as a flaw is the lack of options and alternatives and the lack of correcting your mistakes. I made an example with Legendaries but there are a lot of more examples where people just don't like a specific skin by the time they make it and just want to trade it for something else without having to do it all over again and or wait till that super expensive weapon gets sold which could take months.

honestly it works fine for me I have items I don't want I list on TP i get silver what part of that exactly doesn't work?

Also just curious why did you post it in this sub forum when there is a TP subforum?

Edited by tfckmk988, 08 February 2013 - 05:05 PM.

[ben911993]

ShezuTsukai, on 08 February 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

The TP is misnamed. It truly is a consignment auction. People put their stuff up to sell and the house takes its cut.

As compared to GW1 the TP is very unfriendly to players. But that is how it was designed in the "new" business model to sustain profits through the Gem (cash) Shop in order to afford extremely overpriced items in the TP.

If we truly had a TP Anet would not make as much money.

This. Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I believe all of the small gold sink systems in the game are just there to push us slowly towards the gem store. Waypoint fees, armor repairs, trading post listing fees, dyes being character bound instead of account, all of the high quality (and thus expensive) gear and equipment being soulbound, etc. It's all just to drain our gold and push us to use the gem store. Which I guess is just the business model for GW2, and how ANet will sustain the game.

[cyclopsje]

ben911993, on 08 February 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

This. Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I believe all of the small gold sink systems in the game are just there to push us slowly towards the gem store. Waypoint fees, armor repairs, trading post listing fees, dyes being character bound instead of account, all of the high quality (and thus expensive) gear and equipment being soulbound, etc. It's all just to drain our gold and push us to use the gem store. Which I guess is just the business model for GW2, and how ANet will sustain the game.

How is that pushing me to the gemstore, dyes and armor are on tp. And also armor isnt even in the gemstore. So what do i buy then in gemstore exactly?

[DarkGhostGizmoXx]

I think this would be a great idea, to be able to trade items for items, instead of items for gold!
And if there had to be a fee, it could be based on the value of the item being traded maybe? So a percentage of how much it sells for at merchants?

I don't really think I'd personally use it, but it's a great idea!

[Alex Dimitri]

Every risk on player to player trading can be eliminated with simple yet very effective, cash on delivery form of trade (trough mail) !
They only should add option in mail system that you can preview item and "buy it of" if it is what you wanted to buy.
This shouldn`t be so hard to implement and it`s used in some other games with great success !

Basic, you send mail to buyer setting "buy price" and attach item, buyer checks item (preview) and clicks on COD (cash on delivery) button or refuse (and item is returned to sender), this way is very scam free and much better for sellers and buyers (no additional expenses) !

[ShezuTsukai]

What you described Alex Dimitri is the TP. We can preview items and then make a decision to purchase at which time cash on delivery occurs.

I'm sure you'd like to cut out the gold sink of the TP but that's not gonna happen.

Real trading would allow items or barter system instead of only cash. This needs to be added but again would lead away from the need for more gold which can only be acquired in very few ways to the extent certain items are requiring ie farm, play TP, or buy gold (gem store). Thus barter trade will not be added.

[rukh]

The whole point of Anet limiting p2p trading is so that you will have to pay the additional expenses/gold sink.  I doubt they would put in any reliable system that lets you bypass those fees.  

The only way I can see is for the community itself to use an outside auction system like gw1 guru auctions used to have.  It could never be 100% trustworthy and scam-free, but then neither is Ebay.  Users themselves would have to rate each other for successful trades and report scammers.

Edited by rukh, 08 February 2013 - 07:08 PM.

[Barbieslayer]

The good thing about trading items, rather than buying and selling, is that each item in the world has it's own value relative to other items.  With the system we have the value of these items are lessend as people play the market, and it attatches a false idea of what gold is worth to the point where in my eyes, it feels tacked on.  I can't buy the items I want from the game that is sensible about how it expects players accumulate gold, instead I have to buy from other players that might not be doing anything aside from driving up prices or driving them down, making the value of my time and the gold I have worth next to nothing, and rare items and items that are hard to acquire due to exagerated recipies, is where the value of things are measured against.

Having honest trade would promote a better community in the sense that people would value the items they wanted over the gold they have, rather than valuing gold as the only means to get what they want and saying it's ok to drive prices up and down because it's like a real economy, which is bull.  The price of oil is a good example of how this kind of greed by people who have alot more money than most can essentially rip the arse out of a country and dictate how people live and what they can afford, by ensuring the origins of their product is a mystery to most and by being able to dictate supply they charge what they want, because they want even more proportionately to what everyone else has.  This isn't how human-beings should behave, trying to milk one-another to ensure that people are poor and have trouble acquiring what they want or need, as opposed to a making it easier for people through the service they have decided to provide.

What we have now is a greed based system rather than an altruistic one, and the altruists at Anet are telling us that greed is fine.  The expression of one bad apple spoiling the barrel could apply in this sense when compared to Anets usual logic on things, but maybe they couldn't reinvent an economy when they don't understand what one is.

[Juanele]

well trading post is a more apt term than auction house

[Blixcoe]

Basicly, the assumption I've gotten to from reading anets posts and this forums feedback on my ideas is..
this game is basicly meant for casual gamers. And Arenanet wants to spread 100% justice to 100% of the playerbase, so if an awesome idea/concept has a tiny downside to it, (like some people getting scammed) they don't dare to implement it because 0,02% of the population will either get scammed/whine about it.

Why keep those ideas in the game to spice up the fun when 0.02% of the playerbase is stupid enough to get scammed? Nope, leave that out. Anet doesn't want a bad reputation.

And hey, guess what. Both WoW and Aion had "trading post" and character-trading. Their tradings posts are the "auction house" and "brooker"

Edited by Blixcoe, 08 February 2013 - 09:09 PM.

[Gli]

The title of this thread doesn't make any sense. There's plenty of trading happening on the Trading Post. Buying and selling also qualifies as trade.

[Nabuko Darayon]

Barbieslayer, on 08 February 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

/snip

I agree with you.I just feel like they need to add more options so that they don't make gold the only currency. GW2 miight be superior to a lot of things then GW1, but as for the trading system I just don't feel it. In GW1 TP was the only thing missing, but they took everything else out of the concept and just put TP which is obscene. Not being able to meet up with someone and trade an item is a BIG downgrade so far.
If they only kept GW1's trading system and added the TP it would've been perfect. I also see how people are manipulating the market which sucks big time.
Imagine not being able to trade goods in the first years of the economy crissis. So many people would've been poor and homeless by now. I honestly find trading goods, rather then buying gold is a much more common way of bussiness. trading service for a service, house for another one, apples for oranges and whatnot.

[FoxBat]

Barbieslayer, on 08 February 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

Having honest trade would promote a better community in the sense that people would value the items they wanted over the gold they have, rather than valuing gold as the only means to get what they want and saying it's ok to drive prices up and down because it's like a real economy, which is bull.

Because GW1 items never had ecto costs people haggled over, there were no power traders in the game taking advantage of the lack of pricing information, and ripping people off in face to face trade was a rare occurance, since people are just naturally altruistic and all.

[Barbieslayer]

FoxBat, on 08 February 2013 - 11:15 PM, said:

Because GW1 items never had ecto costs people haggled over, there were no power traders in the game taking advantage of the lack of pricing information, and ripping people off in face to face trade was a rare occurance, since people are just naturally altruistic and all.

Are you implying people are naturally greedy and self centered as opposed to it being learned?

[Jump_N_Move]

Of course Anet wants you to go to the gemstore. They make waaaaaaay more money that way. Its not ALL bad. They are just being too super paranoid and strict about their game in fear of it not going the way they planned. Eventually they'll loosen up. Hopefully...

[Nabuko Darayon]

First of all, gemstore isn't mandatory in any way and I've spent a lot in gemstore but not to get myself some gold but because I like the stuff they add and just for supporting and I really don't want this topic to go in another direction.

If any of you agree/disagree post and post your ideas how to fix it and how to address the majority of players. True trading from person to person rarely caused scams that were related to people being naive. It had more to do with glitches that were found in GW1's code (if I remember something that had to do with canceling trades and disappearing items, and the dupe weeks).  the only scam people could've made was with the globs of ectos and the blue ones that had the same item icon just different color. But that's just being reckless and had nothing to do with real scamming.

Anyways just try to keep on the topic about the idea of trading between players rather then using the TP.
It's not true that people wouldn't put stuff in TP because that is still the fastest way to trade (regionwide), but being able to make trades though Mail is something they should consider or even only person to person which can still happen with the Guesting system online.

Edited by Nabuko Darayon, 09 February 2013 - 02:55 PM.

[adra12]

ben911993, on 08 February 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

This. Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I believe all of the small gold sink systems in the game are just there to push us slowly towards the gem store. Waypoint fees, armor repairs, trading post listing fees, dyes being character bound instead of account, all of the high quality (and thus expensive) gear and equipment being soulbound, etc. It's all just to drain our gold and push us to use the gem store. Which I guess is just the business model for GW2, and how ANet will sustain the game.

Please name 1 game that has none of these features. The truth is these gold sinks are necessary to maintain a balanced economy due to the fact that unlike in real like (where the government controls the rate of new money into the system at a rate they deem fit) in MMOs new money is introduced constantly by all players just y playing the game, in order to stop infinite escalation of total money in the system a set on sinks must be added to remove money from the economy, these sinks along with amount of new gold created by certain activities must be watch and altered to a balancing point. This is not simple stuff, which is why they have economists on their staff.

As far as the lack of trading, it is likely because it is a hard to regulate system that opens up scamming and additional glitches. First if there is only 1 source of selling wares, it prevents the uninformed (who make up a large part of the population) from being taken advantage of by other. Second how many games have had issues with external programs being able to script rapid changes of items int other trading system while concurrently accepting the trade, leaving the non cheater without the items they were thinking they were receiving.

1:1 regulated trading is only necessary in an economy where the true currency is deemed mostly worthless or was not developed well enough to serve as primary currency. The mail system works just fine for giving/selling stuff to those you completely trust.

[Sebrent_Tehroth]

If we had direct player-to-player transactions:

It would not:

• Prevent the items you are acquiring from gaining/losing value
  
• Make it cheaper to buy items ... players take into account "time to acquire" and "time to sell" in their evaluation of the price
  
• Create more intimate trading ... spamming chat until some name you'll forget in 1 minute makes a deal is not intimate.

It would:

• Make Lion's Arch chat have even more spam
  
• Make some items get hoarded by those who are greedy but not smart enough to know how to effectively use the trading post even with it's 15% cut.
  
• Open people up to being scammed
  
• Cause there to be a ridiculous number of Lion's arch overflow servers as people parked there trying to buy things.