18 replies to this topic

[Takonic]

so I just started playing GW2..and i am only level 64...and Did my first few dungeons last night..if properly setup..are warrior tanks as good as guardian tanks end game? or they best as a Boon/buff support/DPS class, I know this game has extreme flexibility..but im just curious is this(boon builds) is the most optimal/efficient for a warrior since im a min/max ideaology coming from WoW raiding

im currently Tactics Axe/Mace warrior..but I have tried newbie Sonic Boon build..I also had tried weapon/board but felt it was kinda weak/inferior

[Puandro]

As good no, viable yes.

[Jetjordan]

It's hard to say what is actually tank-able in this game as you NEVER just want to be standing around absorbing the damage.  You will get obliterated with this mindset even if you are a defense spec guardian.

[BartenderMan]

There are other classes better suited to tanking than a warrior but, like you say, this game has a lot of flexibility.
From a min/max perspective, aiming for high dps with some tankiness is probably your best option.

[Shrimps]

Imo tanky builds are viable but that loss of DPS isn't good for the group and overall makes it take longer because you kill things slower. If you learn to play well with little toughness and vitality and don't get downed much you will be a much better asset to your dungeon group because you will be up doing lots of DPS helping them get through faster. Obviously if you are constantly getting downed then it isn't good but tanky builds are really just to provide some cushion room for when you get hit hard and make mistakes.

[Takonic]

Jetjordan, on 10 February 2013 - 04:01 AM, said:

It's hard to say what is actually tank-able in this game as you NEVER just want to be standing around absorbing the damage.  You will get obliterated with this mindset even if you are a defense spec guardian.

your right, but when I tried my hand at it, I didnt feel as "tanky" as he was...this game defiantely requires dodging/finesee but he was a concrete wall, where as I seemed like wooden wall.


and thanks, ill probably stick to a tanky dps spec, thanks all! i appreciate it

[Jetjordan]

Shrimps, on 10 February 2013 - 04:45 AM, said:

Imo tanky builds are viable but that loss of DPS isn't good for the group and overall makes it take longer because you kill things slower. If you learn to play well with little toughness and vitality and don't get downed much you will be a much better asset to your dungeon group because you will be up doing lots of DPS helping them get through faster. Obviously if you are constantly getting downed then it isn't good but tanky builds are really just to provide some cushion room for when you get hit hard and make mistakes.

I feel like the full DPS glass canon mentality is what lead us to this problem of people asking for certain classes over others.  IMO the best (and fastest) dungeon runs I've ever been on have had 1 or 2 people focused on support rather than DPS that enable the rest of the team to really shine DPS-wise.  The Most damage a group can do is dictated more by skill synergy to buff the entire group rather than individuals just trying to max their own DPS.  Having a tankier player (or 2) trap a mob or boss in the corner will up the group DPS quite a bit since the other players can hold their ground and bombard it with combo fields rather than kite the whole time during a difficult encounter.  A good tank should be focused on keeping the mob off the other players more than just being a human shield.  

So if you want to really be a factor for success make sure your "tank" carries skills that control what and enemy can do and where it can go in the battlefield.  I play a tanky GS ranger in dungeons sometimes that uses muddy terrain, spike trap, and entangle   Add pets with snares to the mix and I can stop those pesky TA melee mobs from EVER getting a swing off on my teams squishy players.  They can just mow those mobs down if they aren't constantly running for their lives.

[Nikephoros]

If you want to make friends, no, don't run a tanky warrior build in pve.

[Shrimps]

Jetjordan, on 10 February 2013 - 03:20 PM, said:

I feel like the full DPS glass canon mentality is what lead us to this problem of people asking for certain classes over others.  IMO the best (and fastest) dungeon runs I've ever been on have had 1 or 2 people focused on support rather than DPS that enable the rest of the team to really shine DPS-wise.  The Most damage a group can do is dictated more by skill synergy to buff the entire group rather than individuals just trying to max their own DPS.  Having a tankier player (or 2) trap a mob or boss in the corner will up the group DPS quite a bit since the other players can hold their ground and bombard it with combo fields rather than kite the whole time during a difficult encounter.  A good tank should be focused on keeping the mob off the other players more than just being a human shield.  

So if you want to really be a factor for success make sure your "tank" carries skills that control what and enemy can do and where it can go in the battlefield.  I play a tanky GS ranger in dungeons sometimes that uses muddy terrain, spike trap, and entangle   Add pets with snares to the mix and I can stop those pesky TA melee mobs from EVER getting a swing off on my teams squishy players.  They can just mow those mobs down if they aren't constantly running for their lives.

The thing is, no class can exactly formally "tank" in this game. Even with your ranger I doubt you just stand around and take tons of damage. My post was referring to more difficult PvE encounters and higher level fractals because it gets to a point where all that toughness and vitality will really do you little good.

With some explorable dungeons I'm going to be honest it doesn't matter what you run, as long as the group can stay alive and do damage who cares what build they're running? The reason I support full DPS is because in an organized dungeon-running group the DPS will be more beneficial if you're trying to complete it quickly. I'm pretty sure the fastest dungeon runs are comprised of people who run full glass cannons and know the dungeon well enough to not get downed even though they don't have that cushion of toughness/vitality.

I'm not saying tanks are bad in any way, and if you run in pugs very often then perhaps a tanky build is what suits you, but from my personal experiences, I think a veteran group of glass cannons is able to do things quicker.

And also to address a final point of how having a tanky player will help prevent the other players from kiting: I don't see what's wrong with kiting because most skills are still able to be used while moving around, unless you run a GS with HB which roots you in place. I'm pretty sure even if the players could stand still and dps, the dps would be the same if they were kiting around attacking the boss?

EDIT: I'm not saying you cannot in any circumstances have any toughness/vitality either, feel free to run Knight's gear and berserker's jewelry, I'm not telling you how you should play, I'm just trying to give advice as to what has worked well for me.

Edited by Shrimps, 10 February 2013 - 07:22 PM.

[Barbieslayer]

I'd keep exposing my-self to content and tweeking as you level getting an idea of what kind of balance in your build that suits you.  Beyond this, you could just ask anet to remove choice so it's easy for you.

[dawdler]

Shrimps, on 10 February 2013 - 07:09 PM, said:

The thing is, no class can exactly formally "tank" in this game.

Sure they can - Guardians and Warriors. Can they tank indefinetly? No. But then again no tank in any game can do that, at least not to my knowledge. There are always limits. For games with the trinity, the limit is the healer. For GW2, its personal skill and more generic group interactions (combo fields, skills). Personally, I was forced to tank the Dwayna statue with my Guardian today, because I did mediocre damage at range and got killed due to weak healing (staff isnt such a good single target weapon). Going toe to toe (literally, I'm an Asura) with her made it easy however. Much more damage and alot more heals.

TBH I would say "tank" when a class can make a boss stationary, trying to beat said class to death (in vain due to class healing) while there are 10+ ranged players around it that are mostly ignored.

Sure the random AI and general skillset of mobs makes it hard to manage aggro, but then again people generally dont care for it either - a "tank" in GW2 is rarely allowed to even attempt to make himself a target. Its not like a thief in GW2 think "oh I'm gonna attack this boss after the Warrior has stacked up some voulnerability and attacked it for a few secs". No. They just attack, everyone bum rush the target.

Anyway, the question was whether its viable for dungeons. My answer would be... Sort of. Offensive high toughness classes will breeze through content. Defensive high toughness classes will either find it too easy or too hard, depending on the group. 4 ranged glass cannons will probably find good use for a tank specced Warrior/Guardian... While 4 balanced Guardians couldnt care less.

Edited by dawdler, 10 February 2013 - 09:09 PM.

[matsif]

in general, no, it's not worth it to run full tank for any class in the game.  not dodging and repositioning is just a sure-fire way to get yourself killed.  Learn better positioning and dodging and you'll "tank" by simply not getting hit instead of the typical thought of tanks sitting there taking a huge beating while being healed by others.

I can't think of a single build for any class where staying still and tanking in the traditional sense is a good idea in any instanced content in this game.

[Shrimps]

dawdler, on 10 February 2013 - 09:08 PM, said:

Sure they can - Guardians and Warriors. Can they tank indefinetly? No. But then again no tank in any game can do that, at least not to my knowledge. There are always limits. For games with the trinity, the limit is the healer. For GW2, its personal skill and more generic group interactions (combo fields, skills). Personally, I was forced to tank the Dwayna statue with my Guardian today, because I did mediocre damage at range and got killed due to weak healing (staff isnt such a good single target weapon). Going toe to toe (literally, I'm an Asura) with her made it easy however. Much more damage and alot more heals.

TBH I would say "tank" when a class can make a boss stationary, trying to beat said class to death (in vain due to class healing) while there are 10+ ranged players around it that are mostly ignored.

Sure the random AI and general skillset of mobs makes it hard to manage aggro, but then again people generally dont care for it either - a "tank" in GW2 is rarely allowed to even attempt to make himself a target. Its not like a thief in GW2 think "oh I'm gonna attack this boss after the Warrior has stacked up some voulnerability and attacked it for a few secs". No. They just attack, everyone bum rush the target.

Anyway, the question was whether its viable for dungeons. My answer would be... Sort of. Offensive high toughness classes will breeze through content. Defensive high toughness classes will either find it too easy or too hard, depending on the group. 4 ranged glass cannons will probably find good use for a tank specced Warrior/Guardian... While 4 balanced Guardians couldnt care less.

Hm maybe we just disagree on what the word "tank" means. I wouldn't call being able to survive 1-2 hard hits without dodge rolling out and using your heal being a "tank"

[TGIFrisbie]

I use my Guardian in a very tanky/support role for the instances I run, and my Warrior for a more DPS role.  I guess that's just the luxury of having both.  However, having said that...

Initially my Warrior was my first 80 and I had all these visions of play a lot of WvW and I like support/heal roles, so I went with Mouse's WvW support warrior guide.  Pretty damn tanky in PvE instances, but it isn't geared or traited for that, its more support/heal oriented.  Having played it though I can say I clearly see it being quite viable with shouts/banners/gear/traits to make that Instance Tank/Support warrior rather easily.

[Edit: looking up at other posts]

Who says you aren't supposed to dodge or move while in a more tank role in this game?  My Guardian tanks just fine and I do dodge and move when the bad stuff comes my way.  You don't have to play the fool and eat a bullet in order to tank for your group.  If you don't have the brains to manage the damage/situations, simply don't play the role.

Edited by TGIFrisbie, 10 February 2013 - 10:37 PM.

[lalangamena]

Takonic, on 10 February 2013 - 03:38 AM, said:

so I just started playing GW2..and i am only level 64...and Did my first few dungeons last night..if properly setup..are warrior tanks as good as guardian tanks end game? or they best as a Boon/buff support/DPS class, I know this game has extreme flexibility..but im just curious is this(boon builds) is the most optimal/efficient for a warrior since im a min/max ideaology coming from WoW raiding

im currently Tactics Axe/Mace warrior..but I have tried newbie Sonic Boon build..I also had tried weapon/board but felt it was kinda weak/inferior

short answer:yes

long answer: yes

why yes:
warriors passive regen (healing signet+adrenal health on full adrenaline ) is superior to guardians passive regen.
you have more blocks on demand, traited mace and shield small block every 8 seconds and big block 24 seconds.
your blocks reflect missiles!!!!! who need wall of reflection?
you have your own weakness source (mace 1 chain) some weakness duration sigils and you have perma weakness on the enemy.
you have the same toughness but twice as much HP than a guardian.

healing shouts+rune of the soldier are very decent self and party cleanse, which also heals on low CD.

three interrupts for thouse big boss hits! F1 mace, 3 mace and 4 shield

why not?
because you don't have personal source of protection.

bottom line: shield/mace warrior traited into shouts with rune of the soldier with a guardian friend who can put protection boon on him is the best dungeon tank.


one problem: tank role is good for the regular dungeons, and practically useless in fractals.

Edited by lalangamena, 11 February 2013 - 08:38 AM.

[SpelignErrir]

lalangamena, on 11 February 2013 - 08:33 AM, said:

short answer:yes

long answer: yes

why yes:
warriors passive regen (healing signet+adrenal health on full adrenaline ) is superior to guardians passive regen.
you have more blocks on demand, traited mace and shield small block every 8 seconds and big block 24 seconds.
your blocks reflect missiles!!!!! who need wall of reflection?
you have your own weakness source (mace 1 chain) some weakness duration sigils and you have perma weakness on the enemy.
you have the same toughness but twice as much HP than a guardian.

healing shouts+rune of the soldier are very decent self and party cleanse, which also heals on low CD.

three interrupts for thouse big boss hits! F1 mace, 3 mace and 4 shield

why not?
because you don't have personal source of protection.

bottom line: shield/mace warrior traited into shouts with rune of the soldier with a guardian friend who can put protection boon on him is the best dungeon tank.


one problem: tank role is good for the regular dungeons, and practically useless in fractals.

Warriors passive regen is NOT better than guardian regen, lol. Why are you comparing things that must be traited/slotted to a profession mechanic?

An altruistic healing guardian will out-heal you any day.

Wall of reflection protects your whole team. You can only block projectiles if they attempt to pass through you.

Also, a warrior attempting to tank has to forgo offense. A guardian, on the other hand, can be in almost full berserker's and still take plenty of hits. To further my point of guardian tank dps-superiority, symbols are AoE. The best "tank" weapons, hammer and mace, have symbols on low cooldowns that provide protection or regeneration and deal AoE damage. Hell, the hammer's symbol is on auto attack.

And the symbols HELP YOUR ALLIES too. Just being able to take a few hits won't do your group any good, especially since tank warriors have shit for dps.

The extra vitality isn't necessary. By tank I'm assuming you mean somebody who can take a beating for a long duration of time. 8k hp is absolutely irrelevant to effective hp in the long run.

Can't argue against the weakness, though

[dawdler]

Shrimps, on 10 February 2013 - 10:17 PM, said:

Hm maybe we just disagree on what the word "tank" means. I wouldn't call being able to survive 1-2 hard hits without dodge rolling out and using your heal being a "tank"

Then what do you call someone that can take the hit and stand still, beating the enemy while recovering to 100% HP without using the healing skill, before the next hard hit comes?

Maybe we should invent a new term for GW2... My suggestion is "gorilla glass cannon".

[lalangamena]

SpelignErrir, on 11 February 2013 - 03:14 PM, said:

Warriors passive regen is NOT better than guardian regen, lol. Why are you comparing things that must be traited/slotted to a profession mechanic?

the request was for a tanking builds for dungeons (see OP topic title), which means traited for tanking, he didn't asked, "which berserker DPS build have better passive regen in dungeons"

altruistic healing is ACTIVE healing, you must place boons on close party members, if your shouts on CD and you have no one around, the healing is very low.   dazed, stunned or even chilled guardian will not heal very much thru AH.

warrior on other hand heals:
- healing signet= At level 80 the passive regeneration is calculated by: 200 + (Healing Power * 0.033) per second.
- adrenal health = 3 Bar of Adrenaline - 360 health every 3s .
i.e. with zero healing power warrior passively heals 320 HP per second

guardians passive healing from signet of resolve is:  0.06 * Healing Power + 84 per three seconds.
absolute resolution increase it by 1.25

i.e. with zero healing power, traited guardian passively heals: 35 HP per second
these numbers are little misleading because guardian get double coefficient from healing power comparing to warrior.

so guardian is inclined to wear gear with lots of healing power, while warrior can get different kind of gear for the same healing effect.

it doesn't mean that guardian is a bad healer or bad tank, on the contrary, guardian heals and mitigate damage for all his party, while warrior may do better but only for himself.

[typographie]

lalangamena, on 11 February 2013 - 08:33 AM, said:

three interrupts for thouse big boss hits! F1 mace, 3 mace and 4 shield

Maybe I'm missing something, but I think all you did there was remove three stacks of Defiant without any successful interrupts.

Of course, removing Defiant stacks is a reasonably useful utility in itself. But I don't think you can tout that as a reliable series of interrupts against a boss mob.