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Guild wars 2 gameplay minus the grind


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#1 st_clouds

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 07:07 PM

Okay, I like the balance, the gameplay the fast paced action of GW 2.

I even think the personal story lines a nice touch for MMO.

The settings, art is great as well, except may be some of the armor/weapon designs.

There were some things I hated in GW1 too that GW2 sorta took care. Remember the rez signet madness? The elitism around PUG at HoH etc. The Rock Paper Scissors gameplay that lead to rage quitters in RA. The obsession with having Monks in a group but none seems to like playing one. The totally original, yet ineffective builds. I'm glad they resolved most of them.

Gw2 builds are diverse and rich, mostly effective, you just can't out right build a gimp anymore.

However I'm getting tired of the grind. I wished we made all these improvements, but with GW1 lvl of grind. The ascendant items aren't helping things either, already I thought lvl cap was too much of a stretch.

And where is the LFP screen? They had that at GW1.

So is there an alt title out there? That's catered more for GW1 players, but has some of the novel improvements in GW2 combat style?

#2 actionjack

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 04:48 AM

What about ES: Skyrim?
Granted it is not MMO (not sure if you want another MMO), but I think it fits your requirement.

I also kinda like Secret World (depend on if you like the modern-day horror theme).  It has some good story telling, and if you do all the side missions, there don't really feel like a grind.  However, its end game suck, so don't treat it as a MMO, and as a single play through RPG, and you will be fine.

#3 Heart Collector

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 06:22 AM

Eh... I don't know what to say, didn't play GW1 but I can't think of any grindless MMO o_O

Maybe wait for Elder Scrolls Online (which seems to have a lot of GW2 like elements) or Star Citizen (though that will be a space sim so I don't know if it's your type of game). Either way, there will be some waiting involved, especially for the latter...

Maybe you could try Path of Exile actually. Not really an MMO but it's always online and seems to have a pretty interesting end game and skill system, not to mention its atmosphere is great.

#4 FoxBat

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 08:10 AM

View PostHeart Collector, on 13 February 2013 - 06:22 AM, said:

Eh... I don't know what to say, didn't play GW1 but I can't think of any grindless MMO o_O

Pretty much this. You'll never escape grind in the online RPG PvE genre like GW1 did... which only had that minimal grind for PvP reasons. Even FPS are adding in grind these days.

PoE as a Diablo clone is pretty much the definition of grind. There's hardly such a thing as max gear when you're always rolling huge piles of random stats as rare drops.

Edited by FoxBat, 13 February 2013 - 09:11 AM.


#5 Riaky

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 10:25 AM

View Postst_clouds, on 12 February 2013 - 07:07 PM, said:

Okay, I like the balance, the gameplay the fast paced action of GW 2.

I even think the personal story lines a nice touch for MMO.

The settings, art is great as well, except may be some of the armor/weapon designs.

There were some things I hated in GW1 too that GW2 sorta took care. Remember the rez signet madness? The elitism around PUG at HoH etc. The Rock Paper Scissors gameplay that lead to rage quitters in RA. The obsession with having Monks in a group but none seems to like playing one. The totally original, yet ineffective builds. I'm glad they resolved most of them.

Gw2 builds are diverse and rich, mostly effective, you just can't out right build a gimp anymore.

However I'm getting tired of the grind. I wished we made all these improvements, but with GW1 lvl of grind. The ascendant items aren't helping things either, already I thought lvl cap was too much of a stretch.

And where is the LFP screen? They had that at GW1.

So is there an alt title out there? That's catered more for GW1 players, but has some of the novel improvements in GW2 combat style?

What MMRPGs ever released have no grind? If it's claimed to be a MMORPG, grinding is just pretty much part of it.

#6 moomooo1

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 10:32 AM

There's no true grind, really, except for making money. I wish there were more achievement-based skins. I do however dislike the RNG nature of getting fotm skins, what they did with the rings is a good step, wish they added a similar thing for the fractal skins. Maybe you can turn in rings for skins or something..

#7 Specialz

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 04:35 PM

Your memory most be foggy or maybe you idealize GW1, but Guild wars 1 had a lot of grind at release (prophecies) and in the middle (nightfall) with EoTN. Guild wars 2 has very little grind, IF you choose to just enjoy the game and not dwell on non-essential things like legendaries and other cosmetic things.

Now the truth is you can't escape "grind" in an MMO  because grind is undefinable. What I mean is, everybody has different definition of grind, some people enjoy things other call grind. Secondly, grind is the nature of MMO unless they can offer continuous content and that isn't feasible. The only way to escape grind is to play a game casually and stop worrying playing for the sake of playing like what 99.9% of internet forums posters do, they don't enjoy something but they keep playing.

tl;dr
Guild wars 1 did have a lot of grind. If you want to avoid grind go play a single player game. But to avoid grind completely only play for the sake of enjoying yourself not for the sake of playing or because you have nothing better to do.

#8 Doctor Overlord

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 05:35 PM

View PostSpecialz, on 13 February 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

Your memory most be foggy or maybe you idealize GW1, but Guild wars 1 had a lot of grind at release (prophecies) and in the middle (nightfall) with EoTN.
Agreed.  I found GW1 to be quite grindy from the start, middle and end.   You had to grind to simply to get skills.   I went back just to see the whole story through Gwen's wedding and even the missions made it feel like I was grinding.   I stopped doing the Factions storyline because of the Afflicted grind in the missions. I won't even bother mentioning HoMs.  

I think GW2 has much better progression as far as the storyline and as Specialz says you really can't make a progression MMO without some form of grind. The best way to avoid the grind is to simply play because you like the game, not because you want a specific item or title. Goals will always have grinds attached to them or else they won't be worth anything.

Edited by Doctor Overlord, 13 February 2013 - 05:35 PM.


#9 st_clouds

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 05:55 PM

Guild wars 1 had grind but it was more of a "horizontal" grind. The skills that you collect in later campaigns don't obsolete the ones you collected earlier in say Prophecy campaign. In fact some of the best skills were still from prophecy.

I  was hoping some improvements but building on the same set of premises that made the original GW great. And yeah I like GW1 mostly because it's balanced around PvP. I thought that was novel. Being able to contribute and fight on even footing based on skills instead of time spent was and is still very important to me, beit on PvP or PvE.

I'll check out some of the recommendations above - thanks all.

Edited by st_clouds, 13 February 2013 - 05:59 PM.


#10 Specialz

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 06:43 PM

View Postst_clouds, on 13 February 2013 - 05:55 PM, said:

Guild wars 1 had grind but it was more of a "horizontal" grind. The skills that you collect in later campaigns don't obsolete the ones you collected earlier in say Prophecy campaign. In fact some of the best skills were still from prophecy.

I  was hoping some improvements but building on the same set of premises that made the original GW great. And yeah I like GW1 mostly because it's balanced around PvP. I thought that was novel. Being able to contribute and fight on even footing based on skills instead of time spent was and is still very important to me, beit on PvP or PvE.

I'll check out some of the recommendations above - thanks all.
Not to turn this into a guild wars 2 vs guild wars 1 thread. But guild wars 2 has a fairly horizontal progression system when you compared to other MMOs. Guild wars 1 actually had a very harsh vertical progression system, the brilliance is the fact that most people tend to ignore it completely which were titles, having to capture skills etc. While guild wars 2 the only vertical progression are for people that want vertical  progression, if you play the game very normally you can get everything, ignoring unneeded stuff like legendaries or all those crappy expensive skins that same to conveniently leave out the staff.

Just to add, guild wars 1 did not become the game it was UNTIL subsequent expansions. But arguing whether a game has grind or not is pointless since people all have different definition of grind. Some people think wanting to have something that is completely unnecessary is grind, while others would disagree.

#11 Heart Collector

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 08:03 PM

View PostFoxBat, on 13 February 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

PoE as a Diablo clone is pretty much the definition of grind. There's hardly such a thing as max gear when you're always rolling huge piles of random stats as rare drops.

True I guess - can't really have a game with constant progression without having some form of grind really. I have played very little so I can't make an informed opinion, but I assume that the way the random maps work would make it more interesting and varied at least.

#12 ilr

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 06:20 AM

View Postst_clouds, on 12 February 2013 - 07:07 PM, said:

And where is the LFP screen? They had that at GW1.

lul wat

#13 Juanele

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 06:40 PM

^

I believe he is referring to the party search function in GW

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#14 ObscureThreat

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 07:01 PM

View PostSpecialz, on 13 February 2013 - 06:43 PM, said:

Not to turn this into a guild wars 2 vs guild wars 1 thread. But guild wars 2 has a fairly horizontal progression system when you compared to other MMOs. Guild wars 1 actually had a very harsh vertical progression system, the brilliance is the fact that most people tend to ignore it completely which were titles, having to capture skills etc. While guild wars 2 the only vertical progression are for people that want vertical  progression, if you play the game very normally you can get everything, ignoring unneeded stuff like legendaries or all those crappy expensive skins that same to conveniently leave out the staff.

Just to add, guild wars 1 did not become the game it was UNTIL subsequent expansions. But arguing whether a game has grind or not is pointless since people all have different definition of grind. Some people think wanting to have something that is completely unnecessary is grind, while others would disagree.

I agree with most of what you said the only part I wish to comment on is this "Just to add, guild wars 1 did not become the game it was UNTIL subsequent expansions". While true it doesn't excuse GW2 lacking features or improving on the gameplay. Afterall ANET had GW1+Expansions as a base to make GW2, and therefore GW2 should be an improvement in all levels. But you are right that grind is relative and optional. It all depends on what your goals are. If it is just reaching max stats, there is no grind. If you want the more exotic skins though it does have grind.

#15 Krazzar

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 01:43 AM

View Postst_clouds, on 13 February 2013 - 05:55 PM, said:

Guild wars 1 had grind but it was more of a "horizontal" grind. The skills that you collect in later campaigns don't obsolete the ones you collected earlier in say Prophecy campaign. In fact some of the best skills were still from prophecy.

I  was hoping some improvements but building on the same set of premises that made the original GW great. And yeah I like GW1 mostly because it's balanced around PvP. I thought that was novel. Being able to contribute and fight on even footing based on skills instead of time spent was and is still very important to me, beit on PvP or PvE.

I'll check out some of the recommendations above - thanks all.

GW2 has far more horizontal choice because you can literally walk away from events you don't want to do or choose to not do dungeons, fractals, or whatever else you don't want to do.  In GW1 it was literally linear with no reason to replay before hard mode. Actually, skills from later expansions in GW1 did invalidate previous skills, they were simply objectively better, but generally the game was so easy it would be hard to notice and you'd be told exactly what do to anyway. Grind in GW1 was inevitable because it was quite simply all you could do, grind in GW2 only exists when self-imposed.

The Witcher 2 is a pretty good RPG.  If you want to avoid "grind" like in GW2 you'll want to stick to single player games.

#16 Arewn

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 02:10 AM

All MMORPGs will have content players will consider "a grind". The shear amount and diversity of content required to "eliminate grind" for MMORPGs is impossible to achieve.

#17 ilr

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 03:22 AM

View PostJuanele, on 14 February 2013 - 06:40 PM, said:

^

I believe he is referring to the party search function in GW

Posted Image
That's an Outpost Party PUG list, identical to the results you could see just by looking at the numbers above a players head or by reading the Broadcasts in LA for Dungeon PUGs.  It is not a Global LFT tool like the ones offered in most MMO's and it's definitely not a cross-server one which is what GW2 really needs now that Guesting is Official.

#18 Juanele

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 04:33 AM

View Postilr, on 15 February 2013 - 03:22 AM, said:

That's an Outpost Party PUG list, identical to the results you could see just by looking at the numbers above a players head or by reading the Broadcasts in LA for Dungeon PUGs.  It is not a Global LFT tool like the ones offered in most MMO's and it's definitely not a cross-server one which is what GW2 really needs now that Guesting is Official.

I understand that. I'd like to see them take this format, have it be global (across all zones instead of just one zone) and then even add in server location in place of the districts. Not sure if that last part is feasible but with guesting why not. I think that would be about perfect for this game.

#19 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 11:25 AM

Off, but:
GW1's grind (in the shape of titles or skill capping) allowed players to complete content faster or easier.
GW2's grind (in the shape of level and gear grind) allows players to actually complete content. If you don't grind the levels or the gear, then you'll simply lose instead of the content simply being harder to do.

GW1 was INSANELY grindy. But almost all of that grind was optional.
GW2 is still insanely grindy. But more of that grind was made mandatory.

#20 Specialz

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 07:34 PM

View PostObscureThreat, on 14 February 2013 - 07:01 PM, said:

I agree with most of what you said the only part I wish to comment on is this "Just to add, guild wars 1 did not become the game it was UNTIL subsequent expansions". While true it doesn't excuse GW2 lacking features or improving on the gameplay. Afterall ANET had GW1+Expansions as a base to make GW2, and therefore GW2 should be an improvement in all levels. But you are right that grind is relative and optional. It all depends on what your goals are. If it is just reaching max stats, there is no grind. If you want the more exotic skins though it does have grind.

Guild wars 2 was a big deviation from guild wars 1 and a lot of MMOs. So their priorities is going to be a lot different than your priorities. Most of the thing missing in guild wars 2 are simple quality of life things, things that  can improve the game, but don't necessarily break the game or make it a deal breaker for the most reasonable of players. An important logical fallacy you made is, you are assuming what works in guild wars 1 worked in guild wars 2 is a not  valid assumption to make unless you are familiar with both systems, just to add maybe certain things you love in guild wars 1 was going to work in with the design principles of guild wars 2.

As for gameplay, guild wars 2 has one of the best gameplay in the genre, the only negative I can think of it it would be better imo is if they decide to use Tera recticle system.




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