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Ranger or Thief?

pve solo guild dungeons wvw

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#1 Fenice_86

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 12:40 AM

As title says...

i have both char lvl 20, i'll lvl up em playing solo 99%
then doing dungeons with my guild and some WvW....

Which class would work better? (especially in terms of team-play in Dungeons and WvW)

#2 matsif

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 04:18 AM

for dungeons, ranger.  unless you are an elite thief player, you are only useful for blind, which doesn't work that well against bosses anyways, or in rare situations shadow refuge is nice for skipping content.  ranger can at least cc and provide a ton of combo fields with traps or use a few spirits for damage boosts, or put out ok condition damage.  there is a build in the ranger forum that has a 100% crit chance as well making you put out decent dps from range and easily stack 10+ stacks of might from sigil of strength.

Thieves are imo utterly worthless for most dungeon content.  I spend more time reviving them (even the elite thief players) than they are worth when I could take just about any other class and have better survivability and party support than a thief.  I seriously cringe when I get one from my guild, most of whom are really good thief players in WvW.  The class is just not good for dungeons, it's way too squishy and has nothing to offer a party other than burst dps.  ele's can at least provide some support and have a bit of range to put out ok dps to survive a lot better, not to mention much better control options.

I'm sure someone will disagree, but I'm pretty sure most sensible dungeon runners will agree that thieves are not good for higher level dungeons and fractals.

#3 Coren

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 06:06 AM

I'm.disgusted to admit it, but thieves are the underdogs of dungeons unfortunately, unless you're amazingly good at avoiding damage and go full.critical. Rangers are a breeze though, and demand little skill to master, but are most welcome anywhere.

#4 Sword Hammer Axe

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:32 AM

You can easily go thief in the dungeons if you go Shortbow and/or Pistol/Pistol, but other than that I wouldn't recommend those in there. Rangers are just better at surviving most of those encounters. Not that you can't do it as a thief, but this is the general rule of thumb.

Soloing you shouldn't have an problem with either as PvE is luckily relatively easy for most classes. Thieves have the awesomeness of a signet that gives you constant +25% running speed, making it incredibly easy to run through content and explore, not to mention the stealth mechanics that are worth gold while for instance communing for skill points. Here Rangers have the benefit of a pet to lure away even champions from the communing points so you can get that skill point, and Ranger ranged attacks are pretty darn useful against all enemies. Underwater I prefer Thief. But against melee hard hitters and condition damage I prefer Ranger. This one I'd say is a tie between the two.

sPvP Thief can be one of the most overpowered professions. You die quickly, but if you're able to get that first strike in you're almost guaranteed a win, and if the first strike fails or is broken then it's often easy for a thief to either escape or get a second strike in. Rangers are pretty good too, but they don't share the fame of a Thief, so I'd say Thief wins this one.

WvW Rangers have the power of keep keeping while Thief is pretty much only good for flanking. When it comes to those huge groups of people I'd say the Ranger would have the upper hand, so here I'd go with that one.

#5 Fenice_86

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:47 AM

so it looks like 3/3 votes go for Ranger ^_^

Thx for all the explanations, i'll say that i have a lvl 80 ele (specced auramancer) so i wanted to change my playstyle to something more DPS oriented than support oriented...

Originally i made a warrior (it's lvl 40 now) but i've become bored of it really fast and, watching my guild mates often going rifle ranged i've said to myself that it was better run a ranged ranger than a ranged warrior if however i was going to stay ranged in harder fights...
(not to mention that GS attacks are sooo boring! too bad i'm used to D/D ele)

#6 Coren

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 12:15 PM

View PostFenice_86, on 13 February 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

so it looks like 3/3 votes go for Ranger ^_^

Thx for all the explanations, i'll say that i have a lvl 80 ele (specced auramancer) so i wanted to change my playstyle to something more DPS oriented than support oriented...

Originally i made a warrior (it's lvl 40 now) but i've become bored of it really fast and, watching my guild mates often going rifle ranged i've said to myself that it was better run a ranged ranger than a ranged warrior if however i was going to stay ranged in harder fights...
(not to mention that GS attacks are sooo boring! too bad i'm used to D/D ele)

About your warrior, I suggest you try axe/mace. Much more.entertaining, and the vulnerability is a.good addition to your party.

#7 Fenice_86

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 01:24 PM

View PostCoren, on 13 February 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

About your warrior, I suggest you try axe/mace. Much more.entertaining, and the vulnerability is a.good addition to your party.

yeah i'm running axe/mace since last 20 lvls more or less ;)

#8 Coren

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 01:38 PM

View PostFenice_86, on 13 February 2013 - 01:24 PM, said:



yeah i'm running axe/mace since last 20 lvls more or less ;)

Off topic: I usually run my y warrior when I just want a simple game rather than using my engineer or mesmer. Simple yes, and that's what my mind wants sometimes.

And besides, asura animations on a warrior look SO cool lol.

#9 matsif

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 02:24 PM

View PostSword Hammer Axe, on 13 February 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

Soloing you shouldn't have an problem with either as PvE is luckily relatively easy for most classes. Thieves have the awesomeness of a signet that gives you constant +25% running speed, making it incredibly easy to run through content and explore, not to mention the stealth mechanics that are worth gold while for instance communing for skill points. Here Rangers have the benefit of a pet to lure away even champions from the communing points so you can get that skill point, and Ranger ranged attacks are pretty darn useful against all enemies. Underwater I prefer Thief. But against melee hard hitters and condition damage I prefer Ranger. This one I'd say is a tie between the two.

rangers also have a signet that gives the same boost.  in a previous update anet changed all of the signets that gave a +x% speed bonus an upgrade to 25%.  everything else sounds about right though.

#10 stilym

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 02:58 PM

View Postmatsif, on 13 February 2013 - 04:18 AM, said:

Thieves are imo utterly worthless for most dungeon content.  I spend more time reviving them (even the elite thief players) than they are worth when I could take just about any other class and have better survivability and party support than a thief.  I seriously cringe when I get one from my guild, most of whom are really good thief players in WvW.  The class is just not good for dungeons, it's way too squishy and has nothing to offer a party other than burst dps.  ele's can at least provide some support and have a bit of range to put out ok dps to survive a lot better, not to mention much better control options.

I'm sure someone will disagree, but I'm pretty sure most sensible dungeon runners will agree that thieves are not good for higher level dungeons and fractals.

sorry but you are wrong. first of all "  I spend more time reviving them (even the elite thief players)" - thats just a ridiculous statement. "elite" thieves will almost never go down. elite players could make a party of just 3 thieves (well 3 of any class really) and do any dungeon in the game without getting downed a lot. I play a thief, i wouldnt call myself elite, i wouldnt even call my self "great" (i would use "good" :D) and i have no problems in any dungeon in the game, and i dont go down often.

thieves are great in dungeons. i did all dungeons and 40+ fractals with mine. they are not so squishy as some people think. no class can dodge as much as thieves and you have a evade on pretty much every weapon combination. Dodges and evades stay awesome while high toughness/vitality/healing loose effectiveness as the content gets harder.
i dont go down that often and play a heavily DPS oriented setup (pretty much everything zerker, but some traits are in defensive lines. omnom pies for harder content).
For dungeons sword/X and shortbow as secondary is the best setup. dont go p/p with SB (except for a few specific bosses, just switch before the encounter). With a bit of practice you will have no problems staying alive with sword and it outclasses p/p by a huge margin and is a lot more fun to play.

they pump out awesome DPS (not just a short burst, but sustained) and provide excellent support. yeah support, its not just healing people. By far the best class at spamming blind - doesnt work on bosses but is amazing against hard hitting veteran mobs - take cliffside fractal for example, no class is as good for taking out the middle seal (blind everything that comes) and the arms (blind everything that comes in tunnel, plus you can stealth hit the seal if the party messes up and makes chanters spawn on both sides). Pretty much every dungeon has encounters where blind is VERY useful.

Shadow refuge - probably one of the best support skills in the game - long lasting stealth for everyone, it heals and is a dark field (procs lifesteal). Cloak your party to skip stuff, break agro, awesome for rezing (stealths the downed player, heals him a lot by itself and cloaks anyone that comes to finish the rez).

Signet of agility - full endurance for everyone, support hardly gets better then that. dodging is by far the best defence in the game and everyone can do it a more if there is a thief around. Take the mining suit in dredge fractal for example - you need full endurance to dodge his agony move (and at 40+ you pretty much have to dodge it). No problemos with a thief there, every time he uses it the thief activates the signet and the entire party has full endurance to dodge (soa cooldown is shorter then dredges). Somebody misses the dodge, thief is there to cloak him (suit breaks agro, SR heals him up and he can finish the rez himeself, nobody needs to go to that player). As a bonus you also remove a condition from everyone.

Smoke screen - a wall that blocks projectiles, blinds foes passing through and is a combo field. countless encounters where its extremely useful.

Cluster bomb - best blast finisher in the game (some argue that guardians hammer #2 is better. i prefer cluster. even if you disagree, the fact is the guardian that joins your group almost never runs hammer, because the GS is better. and most thieves will have the shortbow).

Stealth - awesome.

Add a ton of dazes and stuns, vulnerability, boon removal, some group boons, teleports, occasional exploit if you are into that (like skipping first alpha fight or bugging out some bosses) and you will see that thieves rock in dungeons.

take the grawl boss in lava fractal for example (considered one of the hardest/most frustrating bosses)- thief is incredibly useful here. boss itself is no big deal, his arrow is easily dodged so you dont need any walls of reflections or shields to hide behind or anyone to heal you when the boss is alone. but when those nasty elemental spawn, is where the thief shines. pop dagerstorm and decimate them in seconds, omnom pies will keep you on full health while you storm right into the middle of their pack, dishing out massive damage on pretty much ALL the elementals around (no other skill in the game comes close to daggerstorm in encounters like these), as a bonus you reflect their projectiles back. when it wears off spam cluster bomb for a second round of massive damage on large number of targets. put down smoke screen for extra blinds and block and refill everyones endurance when the boss looses the shield.

Or lets say Alpha in CoE - use shadowstep to skip first fight with him if you want. Against alpha you are the only class that never needs to dodge. when he uses his 100 aoe circles move, while everyone else is dodging away, you just hit pistol whip and evade everything while keeping DPS at 100%, no downtime (it syncs almost perfectly with his attack, just dont use quickness) . Trapped in crystal, shadowsteps and steal will get you out, nobody needs to waste time getting you out.

Etc, etc. take any path of any dungeon or fractals and you can see how thief is great at dealing with it and has the tools to help out the party deal with it as well.

Warriors are kings of dungeons, simply because their DPS is unmatched and they have FGJ and stuff like banners coupled with decent inherent tankiness. but you cant always run all warrior groups and i wouldnt want to anyway. a single guardian is probably #2. i would put thief on #3 together with a mesmer (i think thief is better but im probably a bit biased so lets call it a draw). Ranger is my "main" but unfortunately they are probably the weakest dungeon class (in a tough battle with necros and engies :D). still ive done pretty much all the dungeons (including arah) with mine and fractals to 36 i think, but they need some love in this department. Rangers are fun and can tackle any content in the game, but they just need a few  signature skills/traits/abilities, so you can say "great we have a ranger in our group which means we get X, sweet!".

My advice is to just play what you like more. Its not all about 100% optimization. When i make groups (pugs or guild) for any dungeon/fractals i never pick classes. i would never kick someone out because they are a ranger or thief or whatever. and i wouldnt sit around waiting for a guardian/warrior. take whatever is available. never had much problems with this approach. Few mins that i would save on a dungeon run if i optimized everything are not worth the hassle (unless you are running something very specific like cof1 speedruns, you want to optimize that with warriors, because the speed is the main factor and you are doing it like 20 times in a row). PUGed my way to 40+ fract on thief and 30+ on ranger, did every dungeon and had fun. The failed runs I had where never due to class composition, but too many bad or badly geared players in the group or party members being *s, creating bad atmosphere or getting into fights and rage-quiting or kicking each-other over stupid stuff.

TL;DR - thieves rock, rangers rock (but imo are less effective), pick what you personally enjoy more, both can handle all content and contribute if you practice and learn to use them effectivley

P.S. its not cool, but the fact is in my experience my ranger had most trouble with getting kicked out or not accepted into groups. it does not happen a lot, but dont get upset when it does always easy to find another party, those are not nice people anyway. do what i sometimes do when it happens, pm someone in the group, tell them you are actually a guardian and just need to relog. they will invite you back right away. then shout in all caps "NOBODY KICKS ME OUT! I QUIT!", leave and go with another group.

Edited by stilym, 13 February 2013 - 03:05 PM.


#11 Mjölner

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 03:23 PM

I'll agree that I too see Thieves go down more often than other professions, but I think this is the player(s) overestimating what they can do, probably from having it easier in general PvE than dungeons: "I can get this attack in to- aw, damn!". Others don't dodge nearly enough (how many endurance refilling abilities/traits does the Thief have anyway?). I will say however, that a good Thief knows what and when to use their utilities and absolutely shines when they do.
I myself prefer the Ranger over the Thief, as they aren't quite as squishy and even though much of their power is tied to their pet, they are equally (if not more) mobile as a Thief.

For s/tPvP, I'd say the Thief. That insane burst they have is scary.

#12 Fenice_86

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 04:01 PM

View Poststilym, on 13 February 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

-snip-

Thx for ur opinion about the thief :)

Well i'll keep playing both little by little i guess... i'm still unsure about which one "i like more" the only real one i like is my ele :P
(but i want an alt who is not as squishy and that can dish out better dmg)

#13 stilym

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 04:09 PM

View PostMjölner, on 13 February 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

Others don't dodge nearly enough (how many endurance refilling abilities/traits does the Thief have anyway?). I will say however, that a good Thief knows what and when to use their utilities and absolutely shines when they do.

with 15 in acrobatics (a really good line for pve, never a waste to put points here) you get a trait that returns some of the endurance back on dodge. effectively its a 3rd dodge (you do need like an extra second or something between 1st or 2nd dodge, havent timed it but its short). with signet it means you can pretty much chain 6 dodges. you can also get trait that gives you vigor on heal and one on steal (15s party wide and also transfers boons from enemies to partymembers). i dont run those two in pve though. adept minor and signet is all you really need. The signet never leaves my bar, its so awesome, lot of people underrate its usefulness, especially in a organized setting when you can give people full endurance on request. i cringe when i see thieves running the crappy power signet over this. Compare it to "shake it off", everyone loves that one (and it is good), cures a condition on everyone and often heals people for like 1k+. SoA has similar cooldown (25s to 30s, both untraited) and cures a condition on everyone. but full endurance is so much better then 1,3k-ish health. and as a bonus when not using it, you get the passive (90 precision), meaning more damage and more self heals (pies).

Then you get instant evade on S/D that hits like a truck, long lasting delayed evade on S/P (again huge dps and huge self heal with omonom pies), instant evade on SB (spaming it in oh s*** situations will not only evade everything thrown at you, but also move you out of agro range very fast) and on D/D. all of those spamable to a varying degree and unlike dodge, they work when immobilized.

You need to learn to use this stuff appropriately, thief has a very high skill ceiling. But that skill progression is very satisfying, its what made thief my fav class along with its feel/style (all this evading, teleporting back and forth, fast moves etc.) . Almost deleted it back when i started playing, thought it sucked at everything. Now with practice, im this almost unkillable (ok ok, i exaggerate a bit :P) DPS machine that also provides amazing party support. And nobody looks as cool doing it as a thief :D

Edited by stilym, 13 February 2013 - 05:41 PM.


#14 Mjölner

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 04:41 PM

View Poststilym, on 13 February 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

Spoiler

Thank you, I actually had no idea about the signet. See, this is a good player who knows his sh*t :D

#15 Vysander

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 03:38 PM

View PostMjölner, on 13 February 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

they are equally (if not more) mobile as a Thief.

No, they aren't.

#16 Shadow209

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 12:06 AM

View Poststilym, on 13 February 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

-snip-

Can please you post your build?
Your thief seems to be pretty much the same as my mesmer. Funny thing is, that I stopped playing my thief, because I didn't like it, while I love playing my mesmer. I would really like to pick up my thief again and try your build now.

#17 Korra

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 12:43 AM

Spamable Blast finisher, Spamable smoke field, projectile blocker, group stealth, crazy dps. Do i need to keep going?

Oh, and spamable weakness source.

#18 Mjölner

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 05:27 PM

View PostVysander, on 26 February 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

No, they aren't.

Six evades with weapons, one with skills, four leaps with weapons (of which one is away from your foe), and four sources of swiftness. From traits, you can gain two sources of swiftness and three for endurance regeneration, of which one is a permanent 50% increase, which equals more dodging. So how, exactly, is a ranger not on equal footing in the mobility department?

#19 Jetjordan

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 05:46 PM

^ play both, love both, dude above me is right.

[edit] rangers are definitely more survivable in dungeon boss fights btw, and having access to so much quickness makes you a really valuable group member (unless no one is dying)

Edited by Jetjordan, 01 March 2013 - 05:47 PM.


#20 Vysander

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 06:20 PM

View PostMjölner, on 01 March 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

Six evades with weapons, one with skills, four leaps with weapons (of which one is away from your foe), and four sources of swiftness. From traits, you can gain two sources of swiftness and three for endurance regeneration, of which one is a permanent 50% increase, which equals more dodging. So how, exactly, is a ranger not on equal footing in the mobility department?

Blinks, and the sources of thief's endurance are more beneficial (imo).

swiftness on evade, 50% less endurance used, vigor on healing, spammable blinks with sword, shortbow 3 is a  slow and withdrawal, a heal that rolls you away, a skill that rolls you away and gives more initiative, etc.

Just sayin, ranger movement is not as fluid as thief's, and i've never come across a ranger that could beat my thief in a race (not relevant to dungeon, but a benchmark for speed/movement).

Granted, i would never have need to run with every method of evasion on my thief, I would wager i have more mobility in my dungeon running build then a ranger would have in their dungeon running build.

View PostJetjordan, on 01 March 2013 - 05:46 PM, said:

[edit] rangers are definitely more survivable in dungeon boss fights btw, and having access to so much quickness makes you a really valuable group member (unless no one is dying)

I think survivability is more to player skill. Ranger does have the pet, which can help take some agro, but then theres invis, and the times the pet does things you dont want it to.

Edited by Vysander, 01 March 2013 - 06:39 PM.


#21 Quack530

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 05:39 AM

View Poststilym, on 13 February 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

sorry but you are wrong. first of all "  I spend more time reviving them (even the elite thief players)" - thats just a ridiculous statement. "elite" thieves will almost never go down. elite players could make a party of just 3 thieves (well 3 of any class really) and do any dungeon in the game without getting downed a lot. I play a thief, i wouldnt call myself elite, i wouldnt even call my self "great" (i would use "good" :D) and i have no problems in any dungeon in the game, and i dont go down often.

thieves are great in dungeons. i did all dungeons and 40+ fractals with mine. they are not so squishy as some people think.

View PostShadow209, on 27 February 2013 - 12:06 AM, said:

Can please you post your build?
Your thief seems to be pretty much the same as my mesmer. Funny thing is, that I stopped playing my thief, because I didn't like it, while I love playing my mesmer. I would really like to pick up my thief again and try your build now.

Yes, please post build =D

Edited by Quack530, 25 March 2013 - 05:40 AM.


#22 Shadow209

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 09:12 AM

I've actually asked in the thief section: http://www.guildwars...g/#entry2183486

Not exactly this build, of course, but you could try it. I geuss, I'll start spending my surplus of CoF tokens to get a full set of zerker armor for my thief now :)




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