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Arathi Basin, Alliance Battles and GW2


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#31 Gilles VI

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 06:05 PM

View PostJaxSilven, on 21 February 2013 - 09:42 PM, said:

Never heard of either.

Both were top 100 and lower, and won silver couple of times, granted long after glory days of GW1.

Edited by Gilles VI, 22 February 2013 - 06:06 PM.


#32 Alleji

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 07:12 PM

View PostJaxSilven, on 21 February 2013 - 09:56 AM, said:

With awful players, it's no fun.
It was always 90% awful players. It's the mixture that makes it fun... you expect every individual opponent to be between awful and average and when you run into someone good, it's a change of pace!

And besides, any arena that is 100% pros isn't fun for solo-queing because a coordinated team will always stomp your pug. This way you can just chill and play whatever you like.

#33 Cutthroat

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 08:05 PM

View PostAlleji, on 20 February 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

Will people actually play during those weekends?
It's alive! :)

#34 JaxSilven

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 08:23 PM

View PostGilles VI, on 22 February 2013 - 06:05 PM, said:

Both were top 100 and lower, and won silver couple of times, granted long after glory days of GW1.

Probs why then.

#35 Millimidget

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 11:18 PM

View PostAlleji, on 14 February 2013 - 12:58 PM, said:

"This is basically GW. You get an instant max level character, you get all the gear*, and you insta-join battlegrounds with random players to play a game of control-five-points. Why is this so fun and GW2 isn't?"
I used to think WoW's AB was good. AV was better, until successive rounds of changes stripped it down literally to a race. WAR had quite an impressive variety of maps, enough to put WoW to shame, let alone GW2.

Extremely limited map/mode selection, terrible class balance, the bother of setting up for sPvP culling the lower tiers of the PvP food chain and the draw of WvW all helped to destroy sPvP.

It seems fitting that one day while playing GW2, the following thought came to me; Frogdog crushed.

#36 Saskia the Dragonslayer

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 10:44 AM

I am so glad someone made a topic like this.I completely   agree with you Alleji , i think Arathi Basin is a lot more fun than the maps and game modes we currently have in gw2 atm, i can also say the same about eye of storm map , i know its not as much fun as AB but its stil a cool map.Anyways i really hope anet will put at least a map similar to Arathi Basin, and people please dont jump on the wagon " oh its wow so i must hate it like everyone else" , yes i know its wow but everyone who played wow had fun at some point and many people who played wow and changed to gw2 want that kind of maps , honestly there were fun to play.

Edited by Saskia the Dragonslayer, 17 March 2013 - 10:45 AM.


#37 Nore

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 12:30 AM

As some1 who spent  shit ton of times playing vanilla wow (pre battlegrounds) and then 6 years later dueling and AB on private servers I can concur that they were certainly fun. Though I do not think GW2 is inferior, its just lacks dueling

I think GW2 www CAN be fun and even more fun than AB, but it can also be a lot more boring . GW2 also completely lacks world pvp which made playing vanilla wow for me an insane blast. spvp in GW2 imho is fine and only thing it really lacks is proper matchmaking system,  with proper team and soloq ladder. Class balance could be better too but  I dont hold my breath for it - no MMO had balance good enough that every class was equally viable . there is always top 2-3 and the rest.

Combat in GW2 imho is next generation compared to WoW.  Its more dynamic and  fluid with better counterplay options .Dodge alone is worth quite a bit

Edited by Nore, 01 April 2013 - 12:35 AM.


#38 Soki

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 02:26 AM

I think GW2's movement is to blame.
Runspeed without swiftness in combat is so freaking slow. It's ridiculous.
You chug along and slowly meandre around, barring movement-skills.

Fall damage happens on way short falls.
Strafing is even slower than going straight. While I understand the idea behind this, in practice it's just not fun to play.
The jump arc is unsatisfying, too.

There's also the extreme buggyness of terrain for targeted skills and movement skills in GW2. Trying to disable players from shaodwstepping between elevations makes it extremely clunky. If you try to Steal from a step down on a set of stairs, it fails and it goes on cooldown.


Overall, I find GW2s movement scheme, and general polish, extremely disappointing. It makes everything feel sluggish.

View PostNore, on 01 April 2013 - 12:30 AM, said:

Combat in GW2 imho is next generation compared to WoW.  Its more dynamic and  fluid with better counterplay options .Dodge alone is worth quite a bit
I don't think it's more "dynamic" (buzzword from ANet) than WoW's. In fact, WoW's is far more dynamic in terms of counters and potential turnarounds.
I think GW2 has the illusion of action - but there are really no skills you have to carefully aim.
You have 10 weaponskills, only 1 or 2 of which per weapon generally does more than "this does damage in a certain way".

Utility skills are all fairly long CDs - which is fine - but some of them simple aren't all that interesting, as a 30s CD.
Elites are the gamechangers. That's good. But, again, some just freaking suck and aren't worth using - so everybody uses the only one that's worthwhile available to their profession.

GW2 is not dynamic. It is also slow-paced and fairly boring, due to the low flexibility of skills and general build variety.

It can improve over time - but ANet have been taking steps further from the point where I'd consider it truly "dynamic".
I don't expect improvement. They already lost their e-sports hopes. The entirety of sPvP was as unpolished as the Lv. 40+ zones.
How unfortunate and regrettable.

Edited by Soki, 01 April 2013 - 02:35 AM.


#39 Nore

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 06:00 PM

View PostSoki, on 01 April 2013 - 02:26 AM, said:

There's also the extreme buggyness of terrain for targeted skills and movement skills in GW2. Trying to disable players from shaodwstepping between elevations makes it extremely clunky. If you try to Steal from a step down on a set of stairs, it fails and it goes on cooldown.


I do agree there are bugs and general lack of polish especially if compared to WoW. There are clunkiness in movement, feedback and skill activation, general bugs . Feedback is also imho quite failure - a lot of skills have bad ques and animation. The color scheme they chose for effects and effects themselves makes them blend into background and in group fights its largely hardly distinguishable mess it all makes the experience far from ideal


Quote

I don't think it's more "dynamic" (buzzword from ANet) than WoW's. In fact, WoW's is far more dynamic in terms of counters and potential turnarounds.
I think GW2 has the illusion of action - but there are really no skills you have to carefully aim.

For start there are skills you have to aim. What is more every skill is dodgeable .  There are blocks, blinds and untargettable mechanics which are richer and more diverse. That is in addition to positioning and line of sight which is present in other games. In wow the counters are reactive -you break cc with cc breaker, you interrupt channel with interrupts.  There is no way to dodge that cast you see coming , no way to break the flow  aside from CC. That is why all wow combat is CC chains and CC breakers.

Gw2 combat has a lot more options even if it lacks polish which makes wow combat look better than it actually is  in comparison

Quote

It can improve over time - but ANet have been taking steps further from the point where I'd consider it truly "dynamic".
I don't expect improvement. They already lost their e-sports hopes. The entirety of sPvP was as unpolished as the Lv. 40+ zones.
How unfortunate and regrettable.

That is probably the sad true. The crowds already departed and opportunity is lost. Mostly due to Arena largely ignoring spvp and leaving it in unfinishined unpolished state.

#40 Soki

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 09:10 PM

View PostNore, on 01 April 2013 - 06:00 PM, said:

For start there are skills you have to aim. What is more every skill is dodgeable .  There are blocks, blinds and untargettable mechanics which are richer and more diverse. That is in addition to positioning and line of sight which is present in other games. In wow the counters are reactive -you break cc with cc breaker, you interrupt channel with interrupts.  There is no way to dodge that cast you see coming , no way to break the flow  aside from CC. That is why all wow combat is CC chains and CC breakers.

Gw2 combat has a lot more options even if it lacks polish which makes wow combat look better than it actually is  in comparison
I'd say that you're under the illusion that Dodge makes GW2's combat more dynamic.
It's binary, based on decisions you can make.
There are no factors that make you play differently against an opponent who's used a 3-minute cooldown that will be active for 15 seconds.
There are no counter-skills or big oppurtunities.

WoW Arena has 5-6 turnarounds in a single match. GW2 matchups usually have 1-2, based around 1m CD utility skills or Elites - and with how few skills there actually are in the game, there are no minor counter play decisions to make.
It is incredibly binary. There's only really 2-3 ways a fight can change once it begins.

I'm drawing this conclusions from a lot of time playing organized MMO PvP.
I'm not trying to say I'm amazing - I'm just saying that between both games, the PvP in WoW is more dynamic than GW2's.
I will admit that GW2 does a better job at -looking- action-oriented and dynamic, though.
GW2: sPvP:shark; WvW:200 hours played
WoW:2 seasons of being in top .5% on the ladder

#41 doooknoookem

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 04:14 AM

Wow I was totally about to make this topic. I completely agree that there is something missing about GW2 spvp compared to AB. I don't care for the gear progression of WoW and I much prefer the GW2 progression system, but I found WoW battlegrounds much more fun. I actually think it may be due to the "downed" mechanic. See in GW2, it's actually pretty tough to win 1v2s b/c even if you outplay and down 1 player, he's still contributing to the fight and you need to waste time/skills to stomp or keep him down. Secondly, I think the game is also currently lacking some build diversity, so it kinda feels like you're playing a shooter w/preset loadouts (kinda like TF2) rather than a deep customizable character.  

I also agree w/Soki about the ability to make plays. It's definitely lacking in GW2

#42 Patar

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 06:47 AM

when AB was alive and kicking (pre-NF like OP said) it really was amazing. PvP in GW1 was done so right before they started changing arenas up. I've never played any game that quite felt that good in terms of arena pvp in an rpg.

Alliance Battles especially, was the single most enjoyable pvp mode for me. a lot of gw1 pvp was in the skills. Even though a lot of skills were mimics of others, the insane multitude of skills and dual-profession system made players become super adaptive. You had a lot to choose from, but only 8 slots to fill on your bar. Buildcrafting really took some thinking and number crunching. That was half the fun for most people.

Outside of that, AB's maps were set up well. The varying terrain is a huge part of things for me. I hate flat maps. I like hills and stairs and overlooks and caves and recesses. It makes for more tactical movement and positioning. The objectives were important in AB but they were not the be all, end all. It was easy for someone to tele in, PBAoE the NPCs and cap the point, but you also had to have players keep enemies tied up in player-on-player combat to prevent them from taking or defending nodes effectively. the 12-player teams are what gave teams the flexibility and manpower to do so. That said, I really liked only being able to make a party of 4 players, and the other 8 were semi-random. It gave AB a bit of entropy, also forcing players to adapt for every match.

Also a huge factor was FACTION currency. You could use the rewards you gained in pvp to benefit your character in pvp, outside pvp, or other characters on your account. That was a huge bonus. it gave incentive to PvP other than to play competitively.

WvW and spvp/tpvp in GW2 don't offer that incentive to me. I've played in hardcore WvW guilds since launch, I've played tPvP very competitively on Anvil Rock for some time. Other than a slight bit of money and xp earned in wvw when your server does well, it offers me nothing outside of occasionally exciting battles. 5v5 capture point pvp is boring to me, especially when most people want me to play bunker guardian. My computer is too crappy to play wvw with anything higher than 10 FPS.

TL;DR - WHY DIDN'T GW1 PVP MAKE A RETURN IN THE SECOND. AB WAS AN AMAZINGLY COMPETITIVE YET CASUAL PVP PLATFORM, GVG WAS SERIOUSLY A FANTASTIC PLATFORM FOR ESPORTS PVP. HEROES' ASCENT, RANDOM ARENAS, TEAM ARENAS WERE ALL WE REALLY NEEDED. WHO THOUGHT WE NEEDED TO DUMB DOWN PVP TO 5-MAN TEAM CAPTURE POINT PVP. WHY?!




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