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Ecto's, ecto's, ecto's....


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#31 MazD

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 04:37 PM

Can't they reduce the maximum amount in a stack to 100? Then mystic forge crafted items would cost 100 instead of 250... Really, these numbers don't seem thought out well. Why an entire stack? Now I don't even have the illusion that I can farm most of it myself...

#32 Gli

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 04:48 PM

View PostXPhiler, on 15 February 2013 - 03:16 PM, said:

If it wasnt ectos it would have to be something else.
But when they don't use something else, the prices/creation costs of many things get tangled together somewhat unreasonably.

For example, when the ascended backpieces that require tons of ecto were introduced, it became more expensive to craft exotic jewellery.

#33 Volkon

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 05:09 PM

View PostSword Hammer Axe, on 14 February 2013 - 11:38 PM, said:

Yeah, seeing as they're used for every exotic crafting, I'd kind of like at least a reason why that is.

Ectoplasm was highly sought after in Guild Wars 1 to the point it became a secondary currency, but it was used to craft only a single set of armor. There was even a reason as to why this particular material was needed, although you had to read into it to see that reason.

But in Guild Wars 2 we have no idea why the globs create top class items. We have no idea why so many high level items are apparently coated in this rare material. Wouldn't it make sense if someone asked themself, "What is it with these globs of ectoplasm and the absurd power they possess?"

They contain large quantities of naturally imbued magic from both the Mists and the world itself, serving as the only means to replenish magic in the world. The destruction of the ecto in the creating of items not only imbues that item with magic but it also releases a portion of its magic into the world. Now that we realize that magic isn't a closed system (hell, the dragons consume it...) it all begins to make sense.

#34 Eon Lilu

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 05:19 PM

View PostGli, on 15 February 2013 - 04:48 PM, said:

But when they don't use something else, the prices/creation costs of many things get tangled together somewhat unreasonably.

For example, when the ascended backpieces that require tons of ecto were introduced, it became more expensive to craft exotic jewellery.

That's what I mean, because too many things require ecto's now it's getting a little over the top, 250 for legendary, 250 for infused ascended items, 250 for loads of different mystic forge weapons, 1 ecto here and there for other recipe's, 5+ per exotic crafted etc, they need to either start using other items for new things in the game besides only ecto's or give us better chances of a way to get them.

#35 Illein

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 05:26 PM

View PostAlex Dimitri, on 15 February 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

OP has a pretty good point !

For a item that doesn`t drop on it`s own (from mobs) it`s rather demanding thing to get hold of, and Anet really loves to spicy things up with figures that sometimes make your head spin !

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I still don't know what they were smoking when they decided on the prices for ascended backpieces and especially the upgrades.

"Ectos should be part of the deal as well"
"How many of them?"
"What do you mean? Why a STACK of course!"

It's like they don't have other measure units but stacks for some things which is just a bit ridiculous. It's especially bad because when confronted with it in one of the AMA's they have done when everyone was raging about ascended gear to begin with - they clearly said that that "might be a bit steep".

I don't know, maybe they should let everyone work off the most important stuff on their lists  but then have like a 2 person team that just tackles the list from the rear end, because there a quite a few little stuff, that really kinda sour your gameplay experience for how dumb they are.

#36 Daesu

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 06:19 PM

It is to drive players to the gem store of course.  How else are they going to keep up with the revenue, months after release?

I have salvaged a lot of rare/exotics for ectos and I have never ever seen a salvage that produces more than 3 ectos, even for level 80 exotics.  A salvage producing 3 ectos is very rare but salvages producing 0 ectos is quite common even for exotics.

#37 Gilles VI

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 06:52 PM

View PostDaesu, on 15 February 2013 - 06:19 PM, said:

It is to drive players to the gem store of course.  How else are they going to keep up with the revenue, months after release?

Nothing? GW1 survived for years before they implemented the cash-shop.
And yea they're gonna push people to the gem-shop to let those people buy optional stuff, seems the choice is in the hands of those people to me..

@OP I think they use the same currency (ectos) for all those high level items so that people get a usefull drop much more often.
If every item would need a different currency, alot of people would focus on one, and then sell the other ones, leading to a sense of standing still.
And as others have said, all the items requiring the same currency helps keeping the price in check.
Especially because in GW2 we can salvage the same items again and have a chance of retaining the currency.

#38 Daesu

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 07:19 PM

View PostGilles VI, on 15 February 2013 - 06:52 PM, said:

Nothing? GW1 survived for years before they implemented the cash-shop.
And yea they're gonna push people to the gem-shop to let those people buy optional stuff, seems the choice is in the hands of those people to me..

You can't compare with GW1 at the time, which were different circumstances.  NCSoft net income is in the red last quarter and its stock has already lost half its value.

GW2 now accounts for 45% of NCSoft's sales and has a bigger responsibility to keep up its revenue.  Yes if you are in the position that ArenaNet is in right now, you definitely want to ensure that money keeps rolling in.

Edited by Daesu, 15 February 2013 - 07:22 PM.


#39 Runkleford

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 07:24 PM

Sorry but I'm going to be a grammar nazi and off-topic but I mean no harm. "Ecto's" does NOT need an apostrophe when you are talking about them in the plural form. The proper use is "ectos". Sorry again but after seeing that mistake over and over in this thread I was going bonkers.

#40 Kurosov

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 07:33 PM

View PostRunkleford, on 15 February 2013 - 07:24 PM, said:

Sorry but I'm going to be a grammar nazi and off-topic but I mean no harm. "Ecto's" does NOT need an apostrophe when you are talking about them in the plural form. The proper use is "ectos". Sorry again but after seeing that mistake over and over in this thread I was going bonkers.

If you're going to get technical then there would be no "S" at all.

You would have a room covered in "ectoplasm" and not "ectoplasms"

Ecto.

Edited by Kurosov, 15 February 2013 - 07:34 PM.


#41 Gilles VI

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 08:05 PM

View PostDaesu, on 15 February 2013 - 07:19 PM, said:

You can't compare with GW1 at the time, which were different circumstances.  NCSoft net income is in the red last quarter and its stock has already lost half its value.

GW2 now accounts for 45% of NCSoft's sales and has a bigger responsibility to keep up its revenue.  Yes if you are in the position that ArenaNet is in right now, you definitely want to ensure that money keeps rolling in.

Still if I was Anet and I wanted to gain more money, I'd make gold much more easy to get by in-game.
That way alot of people would want to buy gem-shop stuff with gold, which in turn would make the gold-gem price skyrocket.

And that way alot more people would buy some gems to sell em for gold.
People will very easy spend 10$ for some quick gold, people will not easy spend hundreds of $ to get a single armor set (cultural 3) or legendary, which is now the case.

#42 Daesu

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 08:42 PM

View PostGilles VI, on 15 February 2013 - 08:05 PM, said:



Still if I was Anet and I wanted to gain more money, I'd make gold much more easy to get by in-game.
That way alot of people would want to buy gem-shop stuff with gold, which in turn would make the gold-gem price skyrocket.

And that way alot more people would buy some gems to sell em for gold.
People will very easy spend 10$ for some quick gold, people will not easy spend hundreds of $ to get a single armor set (cultural 3) or legendary, which is now the case.

I don't think I follow your logic.  If gold is easily obtainable in the game then who would buy gems with real money to convert them into gold?  Buying gem shop stuff using gold doesn't bring in real revenue into NCSoft, they need real money.

The strategy that they using is to starve the economy using gold sinks, which would then nudge players to use real money to buy gems for more gold and gem shop items.  From their earnings report, that seems to be working well so far.




#43 Feathermoore

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 09:03 PM

View PostDaesu, on 15 February 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

Buying gem shop stuff using gold doesn't bring in real revenue into NCSoft, they need real money.


The gems you buy with gold had to be purchased from another player with real money. Therefor, all gem store purchases are "real" income as the gems you use to purchase the product is destroyed.

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#44 Daesu

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 09:16 PM

View PostFeathermoore, on 15 February 2013 - 09:03 PM, said:

The gems you buy with gold had to be purchased from another player with real money. Therefor, all gem store purchases are "real" income as the gems you use to purchase the product is destroyed.

That would assume a fixed quantity of gems in the game which would be a strange implementation.  Do we have any evidence that this is the case?

If that is the case, then it should be possible to run out of gems when you want to purchase them, either with gold or real money.  And I have never heard of anyone encountering this error.

As a developer, I don't see an advantage of making the gems limited in quantity besides a lot more work to do so and the potential to turn away customers if you don't have enough gems.

Edited by Daesu, 15 February 2013 - 09:24 PM.


#45 Jump_N_Move

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 10:00 PM

View PostDaesu, on 15 February 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

That would assume a fixed quantity of gems in the game which would be a strange implementation.  Do we have any evidence that this is the case?

If that is the case, then it should be possible to run out of gems when you want to purchase them, either with gold or real money.  And I have never heard of anyone encountering this error.

As a developer, I don't see an advantage of making the gems limited in quantity besides a lot more work to do so and the potential to turn away customers if you don't have enough gems.

This would assume the supply is fixed. which it isn't. just like the US dollar isn't fixed. Its just controlled and monitored. All gems get created through in-store purchases or gem cards. Which give the devs NCSoft money. The gems bought from gold are just existing gems traded from player to player.

#46 Daesu

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 10:37 PM

View PostJump_N_Move, on 15 February 2013 - 10:00 PM, said:

This would assume the supply is fixed. which it isn't. just like the US dollar isn't fixed. Its just controlled and monitored. All gems get created through in-store purchases or gem cards. Which give the devs NCSoft money. The gems bought from gold are just existing gems traded from player to player.

It makes sense that they would always allow revenue to come in to their coffers should players want to buy them with real money.

Making gold easier to attain would just cause inflation and raise prices, including gem prices, so it wouldn't help bring in more money for NCSoft.  Would players then buy gems using real money if gold is already easily attainable in the game?  Maybe for the gem store items, but none of the gem store items are indispensable anyway.

Making gold hard to attain though, would nudge players to open their wallets and bring in the real money for gem store items or ultimately converting to gold.

Edited by Daesu, 15 February 2013 - 11:20 PM.


#47 Feathermoore

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 11:56 PM

View PostDaesu, on 15 February 2013 - 10:37 PM, said:

snip

Gems on the market exist because a player has bought them and is selling them for gold. Anet has complete control over adding and subtracting "seeded" gems all they want to manipulate the prices without us having any way of knowing they were doing it. Talking about that possibility is therefor pointless as it is improvable and Anet hasn't said anything about that (while they have stated how the gem store works). There is no finite supply, but there is a finite number of gems currently for sale. Otherwise the price would never change. Every gem bought for gold was already bought for $ by another player. Buying for gold just shifts the monetary cost to another player.

Making gold easier to achieve does indeed increase inflation which would have zero effect on income. Inflation hits across the board, so the gem to gold conversion rate would go up (in number) at the same rate as inflation meaning that the actual worth of the gem had not changed. As such, increasing gold gain would have little effect on gem rates for now.

You don't make gold easier to acquire  you make the price to get objects lower. The same amount of gold is in game, you get it at the same rate, but the items you can spend gold on don't cost $300 to buy with gems. This increases the worth of the gems, and increases the likelihoods that they will sell.

Now, there is a limit to how low you can drop the prices. Too low, and no one buys gems because why bother. At the current worth though, buying gems to trade for gold is just... downright silly.



Anyways, this is all off topic. The ecto being used for everything is likely both a throwback to GW and method of market control. Having mats that require salvaging to obtain at any reasonable amount removes items from the game, effectively creating a potential gold sink. I say potential because some of those items would likely be sellable on the open market and not to a vendor, but removing vendor trash from the game is the same as removing money from the game.

Having it all be one mat "makes it easier for players to understand what they need" (what the PR would likely say) while also driving up the effective price of luxury items (the likely real reason). Complicated interactions are complicated, but Anet has the data so they have probably tuned things to where they think they will make the most profit.

Edited by Feathermoore, 15 February 2013 - 11:57 PM.

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#48 Daesu

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 12:36 AM

View PostFeathermoore, on 15 February 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

You don't make gold easier to acquire  you make the price to get objects lower. The same amount of gold is in game, you get it at the same rate, but the items you can spend gold on don't cost $300 to buy with gems. This increases the worth of the gems, and increases the likelihoods that they will sell.

Now that is arguable as you have also indicated so yourself.  Making luxury items too cheap would stop making them luxury items.  They would become more common.

At the current state of the game, I already know a lot of players with more than 100g.

Edited by Feathermoore, 16 February 2013 - 03:48 AM.
Off topic, please PM me if you really want to discuss business theory.


#49 Barbieslayer

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 02:25 AM

Apparently the economy is more important than the "game".  And items are more important when they are just things, rather than actual items within the game world that have lore and purpose to them.

Is there any lore anywhere discribing what things like ecto and obi shards are?  Was there some kind of weird radioactive event in Tyria that caused all crafting mats to be turned into tiers of crafting mats? And infused rare and exotic items with ecto?

The world doesn't do a very good job of discribing exactly what it is and where things fit within it, as a result we come out of the game and the immersion to try and reason this through.  And at this point alot of us have got to the point of Occam's razor where we look more at elements out-side of the game to explain what is going on within it.  Unfortunatly Anets reasoning is as absent as a pricise, acurate discription of their world, leaving forums full of threads not too disimilar to this one.

I guess "they" think they are right, and don't feel the need to convince us.  Instead they can throw more shines at us, and read threads like this one.  Where the idea of a fixed progression towards cirtain goals is scoffed at or missed entierly.  Nevermind actualy getting what we might want directly from the game itself.

Though this system might work from their point-of-view technically, it doesn't really translate that well for some of us on a personal level.

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#50 Dasviidonja

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 06:08 AM

View PostVolkon, on 15 February 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

They contain large quantities of naturally imbued magic from both the Mists and the world itself, serving as the only means to replenish magic in the world. The destruction of the ecto in the creating of items not only imbues that item with magic but it also releases a portion of its magic into the world. Now that we realize that magic isn't a closed system (hell, the dragons consume it...) it all begins to make sense.

It's like spice then! From Dune.

#51 Sword Hammer Axe

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 11:08 AM

View PostVolkon, on 15 February 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

They contain large quantities of naturally imbued magic from both the Mists and the world itself, serving as the only means to replenish magic in the world. The destruction of the ecto in the creating of items not only imbues that item with magic but it also releases a portion of its magic into the world. Now that we realize that magic isn't a closed system (hell, the dragons consume it...) it all begins to make sense.

Nice reason. But where'd you get that from? :)

#52 Alex Dimitri

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 10:21 PM

View PostGilles VI, on 15 February 2013 - 08:05 PM, said:

Still if I was Anet and I wanted to gain more money, I'd make gold much more easy to get by in-game.
That way alot of people would want to buy gem-shop stuff with gold, which in turn would make the gold-gem price skyrocket.

And that way alot more people would buy some gems to sell em for gold.
People will very easy spend 10$ for some quick gold, people will not easy spend hundreds of $ to get a single armor set (cultural 3) or legendary, which is now the case.

I agree on this, heck if more gold was possible to gather exchange price would be very high, and then those who don`t want to farm gold would just use gem store for "shortcut" and obtain themselves substantial amount of gold !

When i look now to gem store for $50 i can get 4000 gems which converted to gold are like 80 gold or something like that, and with that you can`t buy nothing of any real value ! And i don`t think to many people can afford to just throw away 50`s around specially not if return is so minimal.

Or if they intend to keep this "system" they should increase drops of everything and kill inflation with it, if prices on stuff in game were lower, then it would make perfect sense for people that from time to time spend some real cash and get them selves nice item without to grind like mad for it !!!

#53 AKGeo

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 01:08 PM

Ectos have gone up in price because of the 500 needed to get the super-shiniest of super-shinies short of a Sunrise/Twilight: the Infused Fractal Capacitor. You're seeing a ton of them everywhere now and it's not going to stop. And the only way to get 30AR before the laurels was dropping 250 on any of the backpieces, including books and quivers.

But for those who aren't going for max AR, or for the super shinies, ectos are more common than the other items needed for these high end weapons. Lodestones, tier 6 materials for a stack of refined crafting assembly pieces like greatsword blades and the like, all have been harder and harder to get. I used to be able to get a ton of gossamer, ancient wood and ori from salvaging whites/blues. Now I keep maxing out my silk/mithril and have nothing to use it on, but my gossamer/ori aren't going up very fast other than when I do node runs. This is likely the cause of the rapid increase in the price of Crystalline dust, as people are desperately trying to convert their t5 to t6. I've also noticed lodestone drops cut down in fractals compared to cores. one in 20 drops of either are lodestones. Used to be primarily lodes from the chests before cores. Now if you get either, it's likely going to be a core. Same with heavy miner's bags...used to get a destroyer lodestone every 15 or so bags. Now it's a core every 20.

I believe the thread is focusing on the wrong part of the equation. Ectos are a drop in the bucket when you look at the obviously nerfed drop rates of lodestones.

Edited by AKGeo, 17 February 2013 - 01:09 PM.


#54 Jump_N_Move

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 01:54 PM

Yea the bags got *ed I agree there. Before last update. I could either push or make 1g buying 30 bags from the lodestone/t6 mat drop. Now I lose money or barely profit at all. Definitely changed.

#55 XPhiler

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 09:37 AM

View PostGli, on 15 February 2013 - 04:48 PM, said:

But when they don't use something else, the prices/creation costs of many things get tangled together somewhat unreasonably.

For example, when the ascended backpieces that require tons of ecto were introduced, it became more expensive to craft exotic jewellery.

I bet that was actually intentional. I cant say for sure but I always suspected the main reason for ascended gear was because Anet underestimated the time it requires to craft Exotic gear. Like this they hit two birds with one stone. there are advantages to this as well though, more expensive ectos also mean rares sell for more and rares are about the only thing of value you can consistently get playing in the open world.

#56 XPhiler

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 09:57 AM

I personally think the very main reason of these high requirements isnt to drive people to the gem store per-se (obviously they love that and dont mind in the least people taking that particular short cut) but rather to provide longevity to the game.


Let me explain why.

This isnt a purely vertical based game and cosmetic rewards is definitely not something that every player will want to pursuit. Thus I believe Arenanet have a difficult problem to solve. How to give a goal for people who need goals to keep playing. Personally I believe that scarcity is the only answer. Like AkGeo already said lodestones are way more of a bigger problem then Ecto. Ecto are generic you can play any content you want, as long as you're killing things you can make Ecto. With enough high MF even at a rate of 3 or so per hour. Lodestones on the other hand are worst, with enough MF you can at best hope for 1 per hour and you have to play specific content to get the specific lodestone you need. In terms of Ecto though I dont see the problem personally. If you need 250 Ectos you can get those in about 100 hours of game play. Other games will still make you wait to get your max level gear piece either by putting a cool down for the raid you need. By making it impossible to solo. By putting other gear requirements forcing you to get gear you dont really want essentially etc... The only real difference here is the game leaves you free to play what you enjoy and progress while keeping the same time sink like other games do.

#57 zwei2stein

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 07:34 AM

Remember how they added "ecto gloves" in gw1?

Ectii are used for one-time purchases, they need to add new things you can use then on and when that is going on too slow, they need to controll supply to prevent everyone having from stack of ecto next time they add new recipes.

For me, Ectii are not issue: Exotics can still be found as drops, from tokens, karma, laurels, as map rewards and enough MF recipes do not use ectoes yet yield exotics. Crafted ones are not as important.

I actually like design of ectoes lifecycle: It is system that consumes unwanted high quality drops and outs minimal pricetag on anything that can be salvaged to ecto.

#58 Volkon

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 01:31 PM

View PostSword Hammer Axe, on 16 February 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

Nice reason. But where'd you get that from? :)

It's mostly made up, but from using tidbits from GW1 and GW2. We know, for example, that ectos originally dropped in the Underworld if I recall correctly in GW1. It's not a huge leap to tie those existential realms (Underworld, Mists) together at least in a metaphysical sense. We also know for a "fact" that the dragons consume magic (Asura story line spoiler, but only a little one). Now, the dragons, as we also know, existed in the past... consuming until they were full and going to sleep. Well, they must have been consuming magic. This implies that either there was a lot more magic available back then or that magic slowly replenishes. I can see the dragons awakening to feed when enough magic has regenerated in the world for them to eat in a repeating cycle. I just offered a "possible" explanation which ties the lore together (with much speculation) and helps explain things, like why the dragons awaken when they do in the first place.

Which leads to another question... if we kill the dragons, preventing them from draining the worlds magic (which replenishes), what happens if the magic builds up too much? It would be interesting if that's what created the dragons in the first place... a spontaneous event due to massive amounts of magic in a dragon-free world that needed to go somewhere for balance...

#59 Sword Hammer Axe

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 03:59 PM

View PostVolkon, on 19 February 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

It's mostly made up, but from using tidbits from GW1 and GW2. We know, for example, that ectos originally dropped in the Underworld if I recall correctly in GW1. It's not a huge leap to tie those existential realms (Underworld, Mists) together at least in a metaphysical sense. We also know for a "fact" that the dragons consume magic (Asura story line spoiler, but only a little one). Now, the dragons, as we also know, existed in the past... consuming until they were full and going to sleep. Well, they must have been consuming magic. This implies that either there was a lot more magic available back then or that magic slowly replenishes. I can see the dragons awakening to feed when enough magic has regenerated in the world for them to eat in a repeating cycle. I just offered a "possible" explanation which ties the lore together (with much speculation) and helps explain things, like why the dragons awaken when they do in the first place.

Just as Professor Gorr stated in the Asuran storyline. Don't know if you've played that :P But yeah, it makes sense. Giving that we used those ectos to create powerful (or at least fancy) armor in GW, it's safe to assume that people have since then found out that ectos are a grand source of power. Quite a plausible theory.

It's still a fan made reason though :S Given how much they're used in this game it'd still be interesting to have some actual in game lore like in a tome or something.

#60 Minion

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 07:47 AM

Exotics vs legendaries are different ballparks... You get your exotic gear to then farm your legendary items later. 60e is nothing when you realise you need about 350e for your legendary.




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