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Should the cap have been level 20?


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#91 HawkofStorms

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 10:14 PM

No.
Cause even if the game was exactly the same, people would bitch about "lol I'm never going to play that game, because the max level is only lvl 20." Those people really exist, and some people (read morons) really do think that bigger numbers = better.
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#92 El Duderino

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 10:20 PM

Seems like the real question here is did you prefer leveling in GW1 over GW2, which I'd answer yes.

Sure it didn't take long to hit max level 20 (arguably doesn't take long in GW2 either), but the fun for me started when I began hunting down the skills I wanted to equip on my toon, there were some good times there. The range of builds also kept it more interesting and I gotta say the story was miles better. I remember GW1 being more challenging than what I've faced in GW2 as well, which helped keep the excitement going, but it's been so long since I played that game, my memory is a little hazy. One great feature that still sticks out though is when you had the ability to choose a 2nd profession and could make hybrid builds, so many possibilities which kept it fresh.

GW2 leveling was fun the first time I ran it, but it has been such a drag trying to level alts. I can only bring myself to do it a single level at a time, then i go back to playing my main.

I never really gave it too much thought, but if they remade GW1, with GW2's combat and graphics, that would be perfect for me.

Anyway it's too late now, we're stuck with what we got, it's not going to change. In fact, we'll be getting additional levels in the future. :0


Apparently, you are correct. It appears that GW2 will increase levels in the future, or at least that they intend to.

Kind of makes this whole thread pointless now.
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#93 ObscureThreat

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 11:08 PM

I prefer GW1's leveling system also because really running the punch-out dungeon over and over again was cheaper than crafting is in this game, and it was more fun than crafting. Also I really liked the speed of leveling in Nightfall/Factions, as you basically hit 20 in the starting region and the rest of the game tested your skill and tactics rather than the gear you had. What they need to fix is the downleveling. Make it much harder, as any 80 in rare or exotic gear makes all lower level areas a cakewalk. It should be harder but reward as equally well as Orr events and mobs. That way people who may be bored of Orr will venture to other areas.
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#94 typographie

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 11:16 PM

Also I really liked the speed of leveling in Nightfall/Factions, as you basically hit 20 in the starting region and the rest of the game tested your skill and tactics rather than the gear you had.


I feel like this is a very rosy way to remember GW1. You could hit ~20 or so in the starting areas, and then I feel like it tested your ability to put together a cookie cutter build and hero team to steamroll the rest of the PvE game on near-autopilot.
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#95 fatrodmc

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 11:22 PM

The level cap shouldn't have existed at all...

They only made it 80 to cater to WoW fans, and they are going to increase it to continue catering to WoW fans...
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#96 Sandpit

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 11:24 PM

I think we should also consder that there is a lot of the world map not added yet. Presumably that will all be level 80 content when it comes. Does that mean that most of the map we currently have is just a big pre-searing area?

The more I think about it, the more pointless levels are.
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#97 asbasb

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 11:25 PM

I feel like this is a very rosy way to remember GW1. You could hit ~20 or so in the starting areas, and then I feel like it tested your ability to put together a cookie cutter build and hero team to steamroll the rest of the PvE game on near-autopilot.


Well, if you knew what you were doing, you could level to max in about 4 hours in Factions. By the time you hit the mainland, you were lvl17, and at when you explored Wajjun Bazaar, there were enough high xp quests around for you to quickly max out.

Nightfall leveling was a bit slower, but still fast. There was a bottleneck at level 11, where you either had to grind mobs until you hit level 12 or reach SS rank 6(general?) for the main quest to continue. After that it was smooth sailing.
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#98 Verelia

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 11:40 PM

I'd go for a level 20 cap and missions that can be re-ran/ farmed with other people. It seems in GW 1 you re-did content because you wanted to or to farm it; in GW 2 you get the all too familiar mmo-grind feel of not wanting to be bothered doing the same thing after a couple of alts.

Granted GW 1 isn't hard in the most part when you unlock a few skills and have heroes. I just know I've been having more fun making a new nightfall character and running the game from scratch than I have in GW 2 so far
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#99 lmaonade

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 11:50 PM

GW1 had the same max stats for years, through three campaigns, and was one of the top MMO's of all time. I think, clearly, you can make a MMO that stays alive and healthy without having to continue to increase the stats of gear.

In fact, I would argue that it was quite apparent that ascended gear caused quite an uproar because it created another tier level of power in a game where people didn't want another tier level of power. You can quite easily see this just by reading Google results when searching anything about ascended gear in Guild Wars 2.


no one is arguing this point, GW1 was amazing, I loved it, had all 3 campaigns + EotN with about 2k hours total sunk in, and it was worth every second.

but just because they could have followed GW1's design and didn't doesn't make GW2 a crappy or severely flawed game, which is the attitude that many GW1 fans carry when judging this game, calling it "wasted potential" and other things. They wanted to make GW2 more like an MMORPG than their previous game to attract a different playerbase (namely WoW players, there's no arguing this either), so they did, I'm not saying whether or not I like it, but it seems a bit unfair that people are using GW1 as a benchmark for quality while dismissing the regular archetype of MMOs

Edited by lmaonade, 18 February 2013 - 11:54 PM.

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#100 El Duderino

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 12:34 AM

no one is arguing this point, GW1 was amazing, I loved it, had all 3 campaigns + EotN with about 2k hours total sunk in, and it was worth every second.

but just because they could have followed GW1's design and didn't doesn't make GW2 a crappy or severely flawed game, which is the attitude that many GW1 fans carry when judging this game, calling it "wasted potential" and other things. They wanted to make GW2 more like an MMORPG than their previous game to attract a different playerbase (namely WoW players, there's no arguing this either), so they did, I'm not saying whether or not I like it, but it seems a bit unfair that people are using GW1 as a benchmark for quality while dismissing the regular archetype of MMOs


I think you missed my point. The person was saying that a game can't thrive within a capped power level system. GW1 proves that wrong. That is the point of my post. Care to disagree?
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#101 The_Blades

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 12:39 AM

I feel like this is a very rosy way to remember GW1. You could hit ~20 or so in the starting areas, and then I feel like it tested your ability to put together a cookie cutter build and hero team to steamroll the rest of the PvE game on near-autopilot.


have you even played before heros/nightfall came along?
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#102 Dal Minjo

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 12:49 AM

I remember hearing something a long time ago that said the GW2 level cap would be like 30 or 40, I wish it had been that way. How it is right now, how long it takes to get to level 80, and the sub-par story really makes me reluctant to make a new character. I've made at least 5 new characters that I ended up deleting because I didn't feel motivated whatsoever to get them to level 80.

Edited by Inspectah Paux, 19 February 2013 - 01:04 AM.

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#103 Craywulf

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 01:15 AM

What exactly is "leveling"? How is it that players have come to expect this to be part of a game? There's nothing positive about "leveling". It's always a chore, no matter how you paint it. It's an unwanted necessity in order for the player to supposedly feel progression, when really all you feel is gimped until you reach the max "level". Personal progression does not need "levels". Imagine if GW2 was without "levels". ArenaNet could've set it up where you acquire trait points when you do skill point challenges, that way players would advance their characters based on player's skill, not time invested or "grinding". Furthermore the mobs wouldn't have levels. You would just know that some creatures are naturally more tougher than others. It would've been a whole lot more immersible game.
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#104 El Duderino

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 01:23 AM

There's nothing positive about "leveling". It's always a chore, no matter how you paint it. It's an unwanted necessity in order for the player to supposedly feel progression, when really all you feel is gimped until you reach the max "level".


How it is right now, how long it takes to get to level 80, and the sub-par story really makes me reluctant to make a new character. I've made at least 5 new characters that I ended up deleting because I didn't feel motivated whatsoever to get them to level 80.


Apparently, we are in the minority. According to the poster below, people love leveling and power creep.

I would argue that it is a cheap tool used by MMO's to continue to hang on to a population when their lack of creative game play can't.

Don't mistake GW1s shortcomings, which were the level cap and no gear progression for features that had been ANets philosophy from day one. They were overwhelmed by the amount of PvE players that kept playing the game instead of switching to PvP, so they made the best of what systems they had in place to satisfy their unintended PvE player base.
Looking back, GW1 was the first MMO like project they created from the ground up, and with the plan having been to release a new campaign every 6 months, each of them having to stand on its own feet, it would have been pretty much impossible to work in higher level caps and more powerful gear with what manpower and time they had to get factions and nightfall out. My point is, had they been able to work in a solid vertical progression for GW1 after Prophecies was released, they would have done it.
Yes yes, speculation on my part again, but we may never know the truth, so speculating is all we can do at this point.


Yup, we disagree here, and there's no way to move that particular argument in one way or another. ANet choose to appeal to a certain demographic, which IMO is large enough to keep GW2 alive and healthy. I would argue that a player base composed of players favoring "stat stagnancy" would not. Again, that's my impression and rationalization for the choices ANet has made.


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#105 lmaonade

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 01:27 AM

I think you missed my point. The person was saying that a game can't thrive within a capped power level system. GW1 proves that wrong. That is the point of my post. Care to disagree?


As I've already said I don't disagree, I was addressing the attitude of the thread as a whole

and the person you quoted talked about stat stagnancy, not capped levels, and while he might have been talking about design changes from GW1 to GW2, it doesn't take away from the legitimacy of his point (GW1 was NOT stat stagnant)
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#106 El Duderino

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 01:46 AM

As I've already said I don't disagree, I was addressing the attitude of the thread as a whole

and the person you quoted talked about stat stagnancy, not capped levels, and while he might have been talking about design changes from GW1 to GW2, it doesn't take away from the legitimacy of his point (GW1 was NOT stat stagnant)


Apparently I have no idea what "stat stagnancy" refers to. Care to enlighten us?

Also, I do believe this thread is about capped levels, not stat stagnancy.

Edited by El Duderino, 19 February 2013 - 03:09 AM.

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#107 typographie

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 02:24 AM

have you even played before heros/nightfall came along?


I missed GW1's beta, but I played since a week or two after its release. ~6,500 hours, last I checked.

I had a great time in GW1, it remains one of my favorite games. But even way back, the combat was just not that varied or dynamic to allow for all this strategic depth some seem to remember. GW2 does that kind of combat much, much better, whatever other flaws it might (and in fact does) have.

Edited by typographie, 19 February 2013 - 02:31 AM.

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#108 El Duderino

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 03:06 AM

I missed GW1's beta, but I played since a week or two after its release. ~6,500 hours, last I checked.

I had a great time in GW1, it remains one of my favorite games. But even way back, the combat was just not that varied or dynamic to allow for all this strategic depth some seem to remember. GW2 does that kind of combat much, much better, whatever other flaws it might (and in fact does) have.


Off topic: You will find my response in this thread which is not relevant to this discussion: http://www.guildwars...wards-from-gw1/

On topic: Please note, if you are going to put words in my mouth, make sure they go along with my original statement of what I prefer - which is that leveling in its current WoW style is antiquated and boring. I still stick by the fact that people generally don't like leveling and want to get to max content ASAP so they can reap the rewards of that content.

Of course, this doesn't apply to everyone - no opion does. But please don't be so naive to think that GW1's system was flawed or would make for a bad game - because clearly it was not and did not.

If you think it was severely and blatantly flawed, I would love to see links to the GW1 forums where people complained about the level 20 cap, because I don't really recall it ever being an issue.
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#109 Arewn

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 03:39 AM

Don't particularly think they should.
Though I'm not that against such ideas either.
I don't really know where I stand on the matter of having levels/ having more/less levels because there's very strong reasons for both, and no matter what they do they'll have people of the other side complaining.

Honestly it just doesn't really matter to me when it comes to GW2 because levels in this game aren't a significant gate anyways.

On the other hand, what I do know I want is improvements to the down-scaling, which would further render the importance of levels irrelevant.
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#110 NerfHerder

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 05:38 AM

If they fix the loot system, its fine the way it is.
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#111 raspberry jam

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 08:03 AM

but what is an RPG without levels ? I don't mind the trip getting to 80 so far (i'm lvl 77 and have been playing about 1 month) but i think a lvl 50-60 cap could have worked just as well but bear in mind that they would have adjusted the time it takes to get the levels to match what their ideal curve is

Maybe an RPG without levels would be an actual Role Playing Game. That is, the "role" part would mean "playing a part in a story", not "leveling up". I have no idea why people think that levels - something that was invented to minimize book keeping in pen & paper, tabletop RPGs - would be important to role playing.

And I don't mean a game for the RP guys who insist on talking in character all the time and so on either. I mean a perfectly normal RPG like Diablo or GW2 or whatever, where you just happen to play at the level cap from the start. I mean, what would change? The only thing you'd lose is the initial weeks when you do the boring stuff that keeps you from the fun stuff.

Edited by raspberry jam, 19 February 2013 - 08:05 AM.

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#112 XPhiler

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 08:54 AM

you mean playing the way we want to play? the thing they were so big on before the game got released?


i like to play at my own pace and enjoy the content too. i just run around looking for stuff to do. and before you know it, you hit events 5 levels higher than you and you have to go back to lower areas. i also have no clue how you got to level 80 by doing one zone per level tier.


it would have given more incentive to play in different zones. would you still farm highlevel mats in orr if you had only a slightly worse droprate someplace?
also, afaik frostgorge is a pretty well populated zone, and not just during dragon :)

i see your points, but i can't help but feel that a gw1 approach would have been better. while i was doing mapcompletion in gw1, i never felt like i was losing out a lot of loot/karma (and thus progression towards the only longterm goals Anet put out there)


Yes, Leveling is just setting the pace nothing more. How is setting the pace preventing you from playing the way you want to play? If you want to just do open world PvE you can, if you want to explore you can, if you want to craft you can , if you want to do jp you can etc... etc...

I did employ a different playstyle than what you did, I didnt try to come across event, I went searching for them. Talking to NPCs will give you a good idea of whats happening in the area. If an NPC is telling you that grawl are growing in numbers you can be sure that eventually that will lead to a dynamic event resolving the issue. You need a little patience since many times you'll need to keep yourself occupied till the events start but there is the added advantage you'll start an event chain from the beginning in some cases that means 4 subsequent events in others its just a couple of events but you'll end up doing a lot more events then if you just wonder around. Achievements are a good thing to work towards while waiting for DE to start.

On my server I assure you the population in frostgorge never came close to that of Orr. It wasnt empty but much less populated. Except for the claw of jormag event you'd come across small groups of player here and there 2 - 5. In Orr you can see massive groups farming events.
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#113 zwei2stein

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 09:06 AM

Maybe an RPG without levels would be an actual Role Playing Game. That is, the "role" part would mean "playing a part in a story", not "leveling up". I have no idea why people think that levels - something that was invented to minimize book keeping in pen & paper, tabletop RPGs - would be important to role playing.

And I don't mean a game for the RP guys who insist on talking in character all the time and so on either. I mean a perfectly normal RPG like Diablo or GW2 or whatever, where you just happen to play at the level cap from the start. I mean, what would change? The only thing you'd lose is the initial weeks when you do the boring stuff that keeps you from the fun stuff.


While I completelly agree, there is caveat: Learning curve.

I find it usefull to have artificial "sandbox zone" where you accumulate "i made some progress towards character mastery" points which will allow you to leave it before heading directly to $hot_farming_spot
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#114 XPhiler

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 09:11 AM

Nothing magical about it. Actually, if they had to have levels, I'd like to have seen an infinite level cap. Or well, it wouldn't be a cap, I guess, so no cap.

Ideally, you'd start at level 1 with 50% of the maximum on everything, and then get half of what's left every time you level up. So level 2 would be 75%, level 3 would be 87.5% and so on. Each level might take an hour or whatever. Anything past level 10 would be pretty much the same, with ever so slight increases in power as you level up.

The sad thing is that there probably would be like level 500s who would not accept anyone lower than level 300 in their parties. lol

Brilliant logic please tell me more. :eek:


Sure why not...

In many MMOs there is the bare minimum content to get you to the next level (ie for a player to level from 40 to 41 they need to do all level 40 quests) in MMOs with XP death penalties or sometimes even without incuring an XP death penalties you get in a situation were there is no quest left to do an you're sitll far of from leveling. So in such a case leveling is holding you in a limbo. There is no content for you to consume at this level but that same system is holding the extra content out of reach. Thats when leveling becomes a problem.

Back to gw2, in Gw2 this can absolutely never happen. For starters no content ever runs out since it all repeats but even if it didnt repeat at all, even if you could do an event only once a zone has enough events to get you at least 3 levels past its max. Not only that but for every single level there are also multiple zones.

I assume your issue with my statement is that for some reason you feel you want to do level 80 content right after you start the game and for that reason feel that leveling is holding content away from you but thats not true especially in Gw2. This isnt a game where as at level 80 you get to do stuff that you will not get to do at level 2 or level 3. Its not that level 80 dynamic event are more epic then level 5 dynamic events, The game keeps a consistent pace all around so I question if its really content you feel you're being withheld or if you're really just after the rewards. Simply speaking setting the pace is not the same thing as keeping you away from content. You level will never put you in a situation where you'll have nothing else to do except killing 1000s of mobs so that you'll get access to new content.

Not 20, but not 80 either. i would settle for 50 or so.

And the skill aquisition system sucks, its meaningless, just spending another currency called skill points.

It should have been done like in pre-searing, with specific quests giving the skills, that would have been a great way to implement the skill system, even if the quest to get the skill was instanced, or a trigered dinamic event chain or something. Or even a simple dinamic event where people would have to scout the area to get the skill they wanted. What happened to the rpg elements?


Specific quests giving the skills sounds great on paper, honestly I would love it but would have had many people up in arms. Just look at the complaints of people who find it hard to level. They claim they're being forced to visit zones of other races and hate that since they want to leave those zones fresh for their alts of those specific races. The reason they did skills in the form of currency is so you could do skill challenges in any zone you choose and get the skills you choose. If they were in form of quests people who have been forced to visit essentially all zones to create the build they want. Personally I think that would be great but based on the massive backlash of having to visit another zone just to get 1 - 3 levels I am not sure people would have liked that very much.
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#115 Minion

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 09:18 AM

I'm ok with level 80 as the cap, but I want all my attributes at level 11-20. Having no trait points for so long on several professions is unbearable and simply not how the game is supposed to be played anyway. Gaining traits isn't progression; doing the storyline is. Let that determine your "level" instead of trait point drip-feeding.

p.s. I'm talking about mesmers, engineers and elementalists when I say they suck without traits.
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#116 Krazzar

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 09:19 AM

Spoiler


RPG

If you're bored leveling you don't like the experiences of the game or you have overt obsessive compulsive tendencies. So why would you play a game you don't like, or more importantly, why are you forcing yourself to grind? Maybe be honest with yourself and realize you don't actually like the game, you just like the rewards at the end of the game. If you actually like the experiences the game can provide levels don't matter or can actually help guide you, if you just want the highest profits possible or the biggest numbers levels are a rediculous barrier. Just be honest with yourself, a game is defined by enjoyment, no one is forcing you to keep logging in if you don't like the activity.

It's hard to find games that don't have levels these days. It's actually hard to find many activities that don't have rankings, levels, or other such structures, be it education, employment, or clubs. Why levels? Because our entire lives we are taught to operate by objectively defined and measuable goals, like levels, that teach us through gating learning content, set expectations by outlining the full path of progression, create a comparative scale, and set reasonable goals for self improvement. Do we need these structures? No, we don't need laws or government either, but people are comforted by structure. Even EVE, the holy grail of sandbox games, has structure, it's just defined by the players, and as you have pointed out the structure players create is rarely balanced or generally acceptable for the majority of players. After a certain point, which is a very quick period of time in MMO terms, levels stop mattering in any sense, the standard progression is over. Are the experiences at level 80 in a level 40 zone drastically different than when you were level 40? Do you learn at a quicker rate after being level 80 for a while than while leveling?


Spoiler


That's what we need, linear progression instead of open progression. How long do you plan to stay below level 10 considering you can step out into the open world at level 8?

Edited by Krazzar, 19 February 2013 - 09:34 AM.

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#117 Serris

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 09:23 AM

Oh, come on. Why do people always throw that around like it means something? Are you seriously telling me that when Arenanet said "play the way you want to play" you -actually- took that -literally-? You thought that meant that people who wanted to go straight to the level 80 zones could do that? That people who wanted to spend all their time killing new players in the starting zone could do that? That people could solo dungeons if they wanted? That you could -literally- do -anything- the way you wanted to do it? I don't believe you are that stupid or naive. So don't start quoting that line. You didn't believe that then, so don't pretend to be disappointed now.

If you -really- want to play a game like that, then why not put your money where your mouth is and play EVE online where you really -can- do -anything- you want?


i was sold a game in which exploration was very important, and where the developers didn't want you to run from checkpoint to checkpoint. as it stands now, i do not think they have achieved what they set out to do. i do think that having the cap of level 20 would have fixed a lot of what they set out to do.

i tried playing EVE btw. i find office excel to be more entertaining.
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#118 XPhiler

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 09:32 AM

Can I ask a question, why do people who would prefer a level 20 cap really want a level 20 cap?

So far everyone who said they want a level 20 cap or no levels at all, all agreed that gw1 was great because of its low level cap.
Some reasons given where due to difficulty and reward. However if we take Gw1 as an example though you had tons of level 20 areas they by no means had the same difficult or even the same rewards. In fact the open world had bad rewards compared to dungeons and elite areas like UW. I mean seriously can one person here specifically say they made their gw1 armor sets / money / whatever by playing in the open world as opposed to dungeons or Underworld? cause I would honestly be very very surprised if thats the case. In terms of reward / hour Gw2 is extremely more profitable to play in a level 2 zone then a max level zone then it is in Gw1 to play in a lvl 20 zone then it is to play in a dungeon or UW.

Difficulty, difficulty is definitely an issue in gw2 no doubt about that, the game is just all too easy I am 100% with you there. That being said is a level 80 zone really that much harder then a level 30 zone? In all honesty, maybe because I was still learning the game or I dont know but I honestly found leveling up harder then max level. Right now downscaling definitely needs tweaking, they made it better with the last update but it can go more then that I believe, if it were me I would use the MF system to make the game more challenging, just have I dont know every 50 mf translate in -1 level when you downscale or something that should make things interesting.

Finally I would like to ask why people play gw2. Cause I think this is a bit crucial in terms of understanding the leveling issue. There is nothing you'll be doing at level 80 that you will not be doing at level 30 so why is it a problem if it takes a few days to get to level 80? In terms of game play you'll be doing more or less exactly the same thing, sure you'll have different stories but you'll get different stories all along the way , much more then what you need to get to max level so again whats the problem exactly?

I dont want to judge anyone and not saying this is wrong by any measure, everyone is 100% free to feel like they want to feel. My point is could this be the same mindset of best in slot gear? The game is easy enough to be entirely viable using common armor but a lot of players feel they have to get BiS at all costs or they will not be happy. Is it perhaps the same mindset that makes people feel they have to be max level even though that will not truly bring anything new?
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#119 Minion

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 09:37 AM

That's what we need, linear progression instead of open progression. How long do you plan to stay below level 10 considering you can step out into the open world at level 8?


I see. Trying to spin my words to make it sound evil and stupid?

When I said "make the storyline the way to level", it would be identical to how it is now, except you gain all your traits far earlier on, then being able to enjoy the storyline, dungeons at a low level (which makes it easier to make teams for dungeons with low levels, none of this 80 ONLY FULL DPS bullsht) and map the world at your full capability, being able to take advantage of grandmaster traits if you can fork out 4g or whatever it is for all the trait books. Thinking about it, that would actually give people more incentive to buy gems->gold because you can fast-track to grandmaster book and get all your traits. Def not unfair.
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#120 XPhiler

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 09:39 AM

i was sold a game in which exploration was very important, and where the developers didn't want you to run from checkpoint to checkpoint. as it stands now, i do not think they have achieved what they set out to do. i do think that having the cap of level 20 would have fixed a lot of what they set out to do.

i tried playing EVE btw. i find office excel to be more entertaining.


This is interesting, why do you say that? I feel this is one of the few games that made exploration an interesting activity. I mean you have unmarked areas that you will not see unless you specifically go there (events / points marked on the map will not take you there), you have hidden areas, really hidden areas that is areas hidden by bushes, area behind corners, underwater hidden by coral, jumping puzzles, hidden events not marked in any way that will never trigger unless you talk to the npc in question or perform specific actions, multiple levels to the world (underwater, underground, above ground). In most mmo there is really nothing to discover, just playing the quests will take you to every corner of the map, show you all there is to see but not in Gw2. There is actually stuff to discover if you leave the beaten path.
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