This is interesting, why do you say that? I feel this is one of the few games that made exploration an interesting activity. I mean you have unmarked areas that you will not see unless you specifically go there (events / points marked on the map will not take you there), you have hidden areas, really hidden areas that is areas hidden by bushes, area behind corners, underwater hidden by coral, jumping puzzles, hidden events not marked in any way that will never trigger unless you talk to the npc in question or perform specific actions, multiple levels to the world (underwater, underground, above ground). In most mmo there is really nothing to discover, just playing the quests will take you to every corner of the map, show you all there is to see but not in Gw2. There is actually stuff to discover if you leave the beaten path.
Because you cannot free-roam without being slaughtered by a group of enemies levels above you.
Because you cannot free-roam without being slaughtered by a group of enemies levels above you.
Yes and no. Obviously you can just start a new character and go immediately to Orr
but by the time you finish exploring Queensdale, Plains of Ashford, Caledon Forest, Metrica Province and Wayferer hills (by exploring I mean also playing the content there of course) you'd probably be 80 or very close to that , never mind the capital cities. What I am trying to say is you'll have tons to roam about and you will never ever hit a wall unless you try to just rush forward and thats what leveling is trying to prevent.
Yes and no. Obviously you can just start a new character and go immediately to Orr
but by the time you finish exploring Queensdale, Plains of Ashford, Caledon Forest, Metrica Province and Wayferer hills (by exploring I mean also playing the content there of course) you'd probably be 80 or very close to that , never mind the capital cities. What I am trying to say is you'll have tons to roam about and you will never ever hit a wall unless you try to just rush forward and thats what leveling is trying to prevent.
That's not exploring. By that point, completing the content on an alt just to hit a level req becomes checklist and grind. Think about it.
I see. Trying to spin my words to make it sound evil and stupid?
When I said "make the storyline the way to level", it would be identical to how it is now, except you gain all your traits far earlier on, then being able to enjoy the storyline, dungeons at a low level (which makes it easier to make teams for dungeons with low levels, none of this 80 ONLY FULL DPS bullsht) and map the world at your full capability, being able to take advantage of grandmaster traits if you can fork out 4g or whatever it is for all the trait books. Thinking about it, that would actually give people more incentive to buy gems->gold because you can fast-track to grandmaster book and get all your traits. Def not unfair.
According to the prevailing logic, GW1 was extremely easy to progress through in terms of leveling, yet it had far more restrictive community-set requirements for nearly every misison and dungeon, so using that logic the less formal (fair) structure there is the more informal (unfair) structure players will create. If you wish to abandon the prevailing logic this thread and your previous comments are founded on you should probably say so. I will not take it on your word that it would be easier to make teams for dungeons and that players will not demand "80 ONLY FULL DPS expletive". The importance of having "full capabilities" in order to map the world is also never established, and the premise is flawed. When you are level 16 in a level 15 area you are at max capabilities, if you aim to complete the entire map you will be at full capability far more often than not.
That also has been no established correlation to buying gems, unless your meaning is that players will spend less time doing content and therefore will gather less gold themselves to buy the trait book. I do not support diminishing my ability to be self-sufficient as a player with what I consider a reasonable amount of time in any way and I do not support giving people incentive to not play the game in exchange for real money as long-term healthy design. Overall, I do not support diminishing activity and community in the game for your opinion on a matter that lasts a fraction of the overall game time.
There is no objective gain from that idea, just your opinion that "eles, engineers, and mesmers suck before level 20". It took me 10 hours to get to level 21 on my mesmer and if you are so concerned you can skip to level 20 easily by exploring the cities (get to level 8) and then craft to level 20 (or just craft) before ever entering combat in the open world. Luckily games aren't completely designed around the first hours when there is any kind of depth present.
Minion, on 19 February 2013 - 09:50 AM, said:
That's not exploring. By that point, completing the content on an alt just to hit a level req becomes checklist and grind. Think about it.
Self-imposed checklist grind. Are you playing the game or is the game playing you? Think about it.
but by the time you finish exploring Queensdale, Plains of Ashford, Caledon Forest, Metrica Province and Wayferer hills (by exploring I mean also playing the content there of course) you'd probably be 80 or very close to that , never mind the capital cities.
Let me guess, you never did that? I level my guys exclusively by killing and exploration (which means every character does the starter zone in full) and based on my experience, the first starting zone gets you to around 14, and the second one then gives you some 5 levels, which means you should be around 20 after finishing two zones.
I will not take it on your word that it would be easier to make teams for dungeons and that players will not demand "80 ONLY FULL DPS expletive".
That also has no established correlation to buying gems, unless your meaning is that players will spend less time doing content and therefore will gather less gold themselves to buy the trait book. I do not support diminishing my ability to be self-sufficient as a player with what I consider a reasonable amount of time in any way and I do not support giving people incentive to not play the game in exchange for real money as long-term healthy design.
There is no objective gain from that idea, just your opinion that "eles, engineers, and mesmers suck before level 20". It took me 10 hours to get to level 21 on my mesmer and if you are so concerned you can skip to level 20 easily by exploring the cities (get to level 8) and then craft to level 20 (or just craft) before ever entering combat in the open world. Luckily games aren't completely designed around the first hours when there is any kind of depth present.
Ok, don't take my word for it, but I will reinforce the idea that PUGs generally frown upon atleast being a low level for a dungeon. The obvious example is AC explorable. You can do it at level 35, but if you join a pug as a level 35, you will either be kicked or just play very badly because you are gimping your team worse than having full clerics armour (which is very bad indeed) by lacking the full utility and functionality of any real build. Those traits aren't just bonuses.... The mesmer is terrible without the traitskills, ignoring the extra stats.
There is depth present in a system that lets you fast-forward 10-50 levels by maxing out all your crafting trades because real content is dull without your traits? I call that a crutch.
And yes, by offering all the traits early on, it will create a faster gold sink which everyone will buy into because getting your traits early on makes playing more enjoyable. Only being able to access all of your traits by the last 10% of the game is ridiculous.
Krazzar, on 19 February 2013 - 09:51 AM, said:
Self-imposed checklist grind. Are you playing the game or is the game playing you? Think about it.
Are you seriously suggesting after several playthroughs you're still "finding interesting and fun content to discover and explore in this massively dynamic world of endless possibilities"? Well, maybe if you had dementia, but that is not the targeted demographic, afaik...
If you're bored leveling you don't like the experiences of the game or you have overt obsessive compulsive tendencies. So why would you play a game you don't like, or more importantly, why are you forcing yourself to grind? Maybe be honest with yourself and realize you don't actually like the game, you just like the rewards at the end of the game. If you actually like the experiences the game can provide levels don't matter or can actually help guide you, if you just want the highest profits possible or the biggest numbers levels are a rediculous barrier. Just be honest with yourself, a game is defined by enjoyment, no one is forcing you to keep logging in if you don't like the activity.
It's hard to find games that don't have levels these days. It's actually hard to find many activities that don't have rankings, levels, or other such structures, be it education, employment, or clubs. Why levels? Because our entire lives we are taught to operate by objectively defined and measuable goals, like levels, that teach us through gating learning content, set expectations by outlining the full path of progression, create a comparative scale, and set reasonable goals for self improvement. Do we need these structures? No, we don't need laws or government either, but people are comforted by structure. Even EVE, the holy grail of sandbox games, has structure, it's just defined by the players, and as you have pointed out the structure players create is rarely balanced or generally acceptable for the majority of players. After a certain point, which is a very quick period of time in MMO terms, levels stop mattering in any sense, the standard progression is over. Are the experiences at level 80 in a level 40 zone drastically different than when you were level 40? Do you learn at a quicker rate after being level 80 for a while than while leveling?
The only meaningful thing you said was that leveling is short compared to other MMOs, which just is another reason why it's pointless to have to begin with.
And yes, you learn quicker when you get stable stats to work with. Imagine being a child learning to read, and the alphabet keeps changing all the time. That would make it quite a lot harder you know.
"RPG" does mean Role-Playing Game. Not Leveling-Up Game. That'd be LUG or something similar.
XPhiler, on 19 February 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:
I assume your issue with my statement is that for some reason you feel you want to do level 80 content right after you start the game and for that reason feel that leveling is holding content away from you
And then you assume wrong. My issue is that a level 3 that heads directly south from Destiny's Reach (the path to Altar Brook Vale) will run into some level 8 enemy and then die, preventing the level 3 from wandering around and facing reasonable challenge until s/he did some utterly boring hearts or something.
Now of course, certain content should be difficult and certain content should be appropriate for a new player, but success should be up to the skill of the player, not the amount of time spent, and that should be the case right from the start.
zwei2stein, on 19 February 2013 - 09:06 AM, said:
While I completelly agree, there is caveat: Learning curve.
I find it usefull to have artificial "sandbox zone" where you accumulate "i made some progress towards character mastery" points which will allow you to leave it before heading directly to $hot_farming_spot
A tutorial area/sandbox zone is useful and good, but tutorials should be possible to skip... And, you should be able to revisit the tutorial area and it should be (statswise) the same as when you were there for the first time.
To be absolutelly honest, the thing the devs made that really screwed up the gameplay is that maybe 99% of the content is impossible to simply fail. You either have the skill to kill something or you try and try again with waypoint rez until its finished, its a bit better now in dungeons, but still you wont get kicked if you die a lot, remmember in GW1 when the whole team reached 60% dp in a dungeon, everyone was kicked. in FoW if the npc died, bye bye team.
This can be frustrating, but also spices things up. i miss that.
Is it due to dificulty? probably. I personaly think its because of the rez system, which sucks. The game needs to review this concept and the dungeons need to either have waypoints completelly removed, or just one in the beggining with a more challenging content and a better rez system, like a rebirth mechanic, make the skills that insta rez downed players work on defeated ones. I dont know im no dev.
That's not exploring. By that point, completing the content on an alt just to hit a level req becomes checklist and grind. Think about it.
By the same argument so is rushing ahead which brings me back to the question I asked before, why do you play the game? (and I dont mean that as in you shouldnt be playing the game but rather what are you trying to accomplish) I am asking because unless your target is to hit a level req then you really dont have to hit a level req, think about it yourself! if your target is to explore like you said initially why does it matter if you're exploring Orr or exploring any other Zone? as such as long as you still have areas where to explore before the level areas is just too high for you to be able to explore you're really fine. Same applies for any other activity, DE, Jumping puzzles, PvP whatever.
I agree with OP game would have been better with a level cap of 20 all the game content would have been maximized and challenging for level 20 instead of having 3 maps that allow me to play my characters at his full potential, right now i feel like i am playing a down graded version of my character everywhere i go.
Ok, don't take my word for it, but I will reinforce the idea that PUGs generally frown upon atleast being a low level for a dungeon. The obvious example is AC explorable. You can do it at level 35, but if you join a pug as a level 35, you will either be kicked or just play very badly because you are gimping your team worse than having full clerics armour (which is very bad indeed) by lacking the full utility and functionality of any real build. Those traits aren't just bonuses.... The mesmer is terrible without the traitskills, ignoring the extra stats.
There is depth present in a system that lets you fast-forward 10-50 levels by maxing out all your crafting trades because real content is dull without your traits? I call that a crutch.
And yes, by offering all the traits early on, it will create a faster gold sink which everyone will buy into because getting your traits early on makes playing more enjoyable. Only being able to access all of your traits by the last 10% of the game is ridiculous.
Are you seriously suggesting after several playthroughs you're still "finding interesting and fun content to discover and explore in this massively dynamic world of endless possibilities"? Well, maybe if you had dementia, but that is not the targeted demographic, afaik...
You misunderstand. I understand fully the unofficial restrictions, that was the point of my comment. Shifting the scale would do nothing about that "80 ONLY FULL DPS expletive" situation because you still wouldn't have full stats. Those groups will always require full stats as they always require whatever makes the runs easier. Gear, stats, cons, whatever it is no matter how unnecessary they will demand it.
Are you really going to say there is depth to a system that only acts to remove depth? Did you ever consider there are lessons in levels 2-10? After you've done it 8 times before you better know them, but for new players they are important, that's why Anet dropped in ways to skip those levels entirely and also made levels 2-10 the quickest to get through. Consider levels 2-10 presearing, if you've done presearing before you know what you can skip through. The point of that comment was to identify some methods Anet put in to speed up the process from level 2-20 if that's what you want, while you identify a problem and then refuse to do anything about it. There's a word for people like that.
Your opinion does not make good game design, especially when your opinion only impacts the tutorial process. Not everyone is an expert before they ever log into the game. In fact, by level 80 most players are still not experts at their profession. The retraiting and gating makes you think about what traits are important and how they fit together, at least that's what I and my guild have found.
I was wondering when you would run out of original thoughts and have to defer to personal attacks. I was expecting at least a couple more posts. Oh well. If you were wondering, yes, the game still is interesting after 7 level 80s worth of playing, although playing with friends from time to time doesn't hurt.
raspberry jam, on 19 February 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:
Spoiler
The only meaningful thing you said was that leveling is short compared to other MMOs, which just is another reason why it's pointless to have to begin with.
And yes, you learn quicker when you get stable stats to work with. Imagine being a child learning to read, and the alphabet keeps changing all the time. That would make it quite a lot harder you know.
"RPG" does mean Role-Playing Game. Not Leveling-Up Game. That'd be LUG or something similar.
And then you assume wrong. My issue is that a level 3 that heads directly south from Destiny's Reach (the path to Altar Brook Vale) will run into some level 8 enemy and then die, preventing the level 3 from wandering around and facing reasonable challenge until s/he did some utterly boring hearts or something.
Now of course, certain content should be difficult and certain content should be appropriate for a new player, but success should be up to the skill of the player, not the amount of time spent, and that should be the case right from the start.
A tutorial area/sandbox zone is useful and good, but tutorials should be possible to skip... And, you should be able to revisit the tutorial area and it should be (statswise) the same as when you were there for the first time.
The point is the things you said are pointless without any rationale. The whole world isn't going to take your word on it, especially when it's how nearly everything operates from cradle to grave.
Actually that's exactly how things work. If you haven't noticed books written for children at age 4 are very different than books written for children at age 8, which are very different than books written for children at age 14, which are very different than books written for adults. The alphabet doesn't keep changing all the time, but the vocabulary, level of subtext, and level of referencing and compexity changes quite dramatically. Then you have different subjects or types of reading that have their own requirements. You don't employ the same style of reading for a personal novel in your free time as you do for SAT questions. Children do not learn to read in kindergarten and call it quits, at least not successful ones we would call literate, they continually learn into adulthood and even beyond that. The same is true of GW2, we learn the profession incrementally until we get to level 80 and then we can still learn more if we want, but there is always that general standard of understanding. If you meet someone that you know is literate you can assume their reading level by their age range, you would not expect a first grader to read and understand The Republic, just like you would assume an adult can read more than Duck and Goose Find a Pumpkin. You can assume a level 80 knows more than a level 60, which knows more than a level 40, and so on. They are different ranges of development.
Then perhaps your problem is in what role you choose. I guess the difference is I don't pick "leveler" as my role as I play the game. This is the problem of subjectivity, the things I do are not necessarily the things you do nor are the things I focus on. You just have to be honest with yourself and do what you want, otherwise why are you doing it? Compare GW2 to any game in the genre, would you really be completely free in any of them?
How is this any different than a level-less game? In a level-less game you wander aimlessly until something too difficult kills you. Then you search for a while and eventually abandon the area because the item/enchantment/skill you need is actually on the other side of the map and you would never know it otherwise. Maybe you'll run into it later, maybe not. Or maybe you'll pick the quick path, play for seven minutes and kill the "end boss" and you can drop the game forever. Both are real situations out of a level-less game, Morrowind. If you can kill the end boss in seven minutes why do anything? If you can walk a straight path to the best gear in ten minutes why play any longer? In a level-less game the motivation is the same as a game with levels and it's different for every player. Is there a place for a game like that? The market says no, but I'd say yes. Would it be an effective MMO? Nope.
Let me guess, you never did that? I level my guys exclusively by killing and exploration (which means every character does the starter zone in full) and based on my experience, the first starting zone gets you to around 14, and the second one then gives you some 5 levels, which means you should be around 20 after finishing two zones.
No I never did it that way but I dont think your calculation is correct. There is a taper off you're right at level 80 you get 1/3 of your level xp if you do level 2 content true. At level 20 its far less then that. Thats not all but you can factor in the daily which is nearly an extra level every day you play. More then that pace varies a lot. You say you finished your first starter zone at around 14. I was 18 nearly 19 when I finished queensdale, 19 when I finished wayfarer hill and am level 12 with just a bit more then 1/2 of Metrica Provence completed. (different characters of course). But you make a valid point and I will gladly test that as soon as I am done with Metrica Provence
raspberry jam, on 19 February 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:
The only meaningful thing you said was that leveling is short compared to other MMOs, which just is another reason why it's pointless to have to begin with.
And yes, you learn quicker when you get stable stats to work with. Imagine being a child learning to read, and the alphabet keeps changing all the time. That would make it quite a lot harder you know.
"RPG" does mean Role-Playing Game. Not Leveling-Up Game. That'd be LUG or something similar.
And then you assume wrong. My issue is that a level 3 that heads directly south from Destiny's Reach (the path to Altar Brook Vale) will run into some level 8 enemy and then die, preventing the level 3 from wandering around and facing reasonable challenge until s/he did some utterly boring hearts or something.
Now of course, certain content should be difficult and certain content should be appropriate for a new player, but success should be up to the skill of the player, not the amount of time spent, and that should be the case right from the start.
A tutorial area/sandbox zone is useful and good, but tutorials should be possible to skip... And, you should be able to revisit the tutorial area and it should be (statswise) the same as when you were there for the first time.
You're right, a level 3 venturing south towards altar brook value will end up finding tough resistance and die. But what I am saying is that level 3 right out of divinities reach can go left towards shaemoor garrison or go right towards shaemoor fields, s/he can get back into divinities reach and travel to lions arch and from there to wayfarer hills when they can go straight in to their hearts content or go to metrica Provence and venture there etc.. etc..
Whats more important to note is your character finds what s/he has to do in shaemoor fields or shaemoor garrison boring be it hearts or dynamic events, being free to travel south towards altar brook vale will solve nothing since it will be more of the same type of content. If you dont like the content the game offers being left free to go anywhere you want will not magically make you like what you dislike.
No I never did it that way but I dont think your calculation is correct. There is a taper off you're right at level 80 you get 1/3 of your level xp if you do level 2 content true. At level 20 its far less then that. Thats not all but you can factor in the daily which is nearly an extra level every day you play. More then that pace varies a lot. You say you finished your first starter zone at around 14. I was 18 nearly 19 when I finished queensdale, 19 when I finished wayfarer hill and am level 12 with just a bit more then 1/2 of Metrica Provence completed. (different characters of course). But you make a valid point and I will gladly test that as soon as I am done with Metrica Provence
They aren't calculations - as I said, that's exactly how I play the game. I do skip the personal story, which should provide me with a few additional XP while doing the racial starter zone, but that has no influence on the remaining 4 zones.
I logged into the game to check and my guardian is at lvl 21. He has Wayfarer and Celadon completed in full and has 11% of Brisban.
I am sorry, but you'll never get to 80 by simply doing the first 5 starter zones - unless, of course, you grind the shit out of them.
They aren't calculations - as I said, that's exactly how I play the game. I do skip the personal story, which should provide me with a few additional XP while doing the racial starter zone, but that has no influence on the remaining 4 zones.
I logged into the game to check and my guardian is at lvl 21. He has Wayfarer and Celadon completed in full and has 11% of Brisban.
I am sorry, but you'll never get to 80 by simply doing the first 5 starter zones - unless, of course, you grind the shit out of them.
Or unless you do more than simply run from heart to heart and doing nothing else.
If you actually play the game (as in gathering materials, doing DEs, doing jumping puzzles) you can quite easily get to lvl 80 by only using the starting zones.
Or unless you do more than simply run from heart to heart and doing nothing else.If you actually play the game (as in gathering materials, doing DEs, doing jumping puzzles) you can quite easily get to lvl 80 by only using the starting zones.
It's a bit shocking to see how little folks understand how little XP you actually get in a zone. That's the XP with EVERY node, that I ran across, harvested and EVERY DE, that I ran across, finished. Not only that, as I keep mentioning, I ADORE killing shit, so that contains quite a few kills that my friends would NEVER do. (And with one of the areas being Wayfarer, that obviously includes the dumb-ass dark jumping puzzle.)
As I keep mentioning, that does probably include a a low number of DEs, but with DEs not being on-demand content, there's not much I can do there. I can only do the DEs that show up when I am in the location that they show up in.
It's a bit shocking to see how little folks understand how little XP you actually get in a zone. That's the XP with EVERY node, that I ran across, harvested and EVERY DE, that I ran across, finished. Not only that, as I keep mentioning, I ADORE killing shit, so that contains quite a few kills that my friends would NEVER do. (And with one of the areas being Wayfarer, that obviously includes the dumb-ass dark jumping puzzle.)
As I keep mentioning, that does probably include a a low number of DEs, but with DEs not being on-demand content, there's not much I can do there. I can only do the DEs that show up when I am in the location that they show up in.
Of course, if you skip all DEs that don't happen at the very moment you are at a place you would have trouble with it. But if you actually spend some time in a zone and not just run from heart to hear you WILL get to see DEs more or less at all times. There are huge amounts of DEs in more or less every zone, but you won't find them if you simply run from heart to heart and then assume you are "finished".
You're right, a level 3 venturing south towards altar brook value will end up finding tough resistance and die. But what I am saying is that level 3 right out of divinities reach can go left towards shaemoor garrison or go right towards shaemoor fields, s/he can get back into divinities reach and travel to lions arch and from there to wayfarer hills when they can go straight in to their hearts content or go to metrica Provence and venture there etc.. etc..
Whats more important to note is your character finds what s/he has to do in shaemoor fields or shaemoor garrison boring be it hearts or dynamic events, being free to travel south towards altar brook vale will solve nothing since it will be more of the same type of content. If you dont like the content the game offers being left free to go anywhere you want will not magically make you like what you dislike.
Except that which parts of content is desirable is different for different people. Exploration and seeking out the challenges that you want to take on is desirable for some people, picking apples and checking skale traps is desirable for others. You do make a good point though, because a fundamental problem is that most content in GW2 is boring. However, there is still a strong case to be had for challenge the success of beating which is decided by skill instead of time spent, something that you ignored because admitting it would mean admitting that the main content structure of GW2 would need to be redesigned.
GW2 is made to be a level/gear grind game right from the start, it's unfortunate but it's true.
They aren't calculations - as I said, that's exactly how I play the game. I do skip the personal story, which should provide me with a few additional XP while doing the racial starter zone, but that has no influence on the remaining 4 zones.
I logged into the game to check and my guardian is at lvl 21. He has Wayfarer and Celadon completed in full and has 11% of Brisban.
I am sorry, but you'll never get to 80 by simply doing the first 5 starter zones - unless, of course, you grind the shit out of them.
Both your statement and my statement are a calculation because its impossible to quantify how much XP you can get from a zone. I try to play every DE in a zone before moving on. So far I never succeeded because revisiting the zone late I always come across one or two DE I had missed. To play every DE I talk to npcs and if i think the area has DE stay in the vicinity waiting for them to trigger. Other players might not have the patience for that and instead just run from poi to poi and only stopping to do DE when they come across subsequently scattering the moment the DE finishes (thus loosing the rest of the chain)
Both of these play styles can be used to do what we're talking about (finishing starter areas in sequence before moving on) But the amount of XP each of these play styles get will vary greatly. Waiting for DE to start means you spend a lot of time. It takes me approx 20 hrs to complete a zone. Thats about 5 days for me which means 5 dailies that translate to at least 3 extra levels per zone. Theres at least 15 levels right there. While waiting for DE to spawn I dont just stare at the monitor, I will either kill a few mobs, gather if there are nodes about or explore the area in the vicinity all of that gives you extra XP. Sometimes the exploration will also lead to a secret area with secret events etc... . When I think I am done with zone I also make sure to cover all the unmarked areas thats yet another bunch of XP I am sure many people skip because there would be nothing marked on the map in that general vicinity. Obvioulsy I am a bit of an extreme dont expect everyone to do everything by far but there is no one measure. This is also excluding that killing mobs in these remote areas will generally give you a lot of bonus XP because the mobs would have been alive for a very long time.
Even if we consider extra zones lead to just 5 levels that with dailies would make me about lvl 55 (finished first zone 19lvl + dailies (15lvl) other 4 zones (20)) I think just 5 levels is a bit too low though to be honest, taking max level character doing lowest level content you'd get 1/3 of the XP so all things being equal if I had to do a starter zone with a level 80 character I would level about 7 times. Accounting for the gradual build up of that penality I would say 8 - 9 level per zone would be more accurate then 5. Which would put me I calculate to about level 66 - 70 so probably you're right in that just playing the starter zones will likely not get you all the way to max level but I am sure it will put you close. Lets not forget that at this stage even going by your 5 levels per zone (or lvl 55 when done) there are another 14 zones you can explore at that level. So in any case one thing is sure, you will never hit that leveling wall.
On my first character I hit level 80 after playing 5 zones. Queesndale, Kessex Hill, Gendarran Fields, Harathi Hinterlands and bloodtide coast.
No I never did it that way but I dont think your calculation is correct. There is a taper off you're right at level 80 you get 1/3 of your level xp if you do level 2 content true. At level 20 its far less then that. Thats not all but you can factor in the daily which is nearly an extra level every day you play. More then that pace varies a lot. You say you finished your first starter zone at around 14. I was 18 nearly 19 when I finished queensdale, 19 when I finished wayfarer hill and am level 12 with just a bit more then 1/2 of Metrica Provence completed. (different characters of course). But you make a valid point and I will gladly test that as soon as I am done with Metrica Provence
His calculations DO seem wrong, but your guess is just ridiculous. On my latest lowbie alt (a human warrior), after getting 100% completion in Queensdale, doing every single DE that I came across, AND making sure I didn't play any of my other toons before getting all my dailies on the warrior for the extra XP, she was STILL one level too low to equip the level 14 armor that I got for the reward. Finishing Wayfarer's got her all the way to level 19.
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To play every DE I talk to npcs and if i think the area has DE stay in the vicinity waiting for them to trigger
Hanging around, not doing anything worthwhile while you wait for events to trigger? Sounds like the worst kind of grind.
This is interesting, why do you say that? I feel this is one of the few games that made exploration an interesting activity. I mean you have unmarked areas that you will not see unless you specifically go there (events / points marked on the map will not take you there), you have hidden areas, really hidden areas that is areas hidden by bushes, area behind corners, underwater hidden by coral, jumping puzzles, hidden events not marked in any way that will never trigger unless you talk to the npc in question or perform specific actions, multiple levels to the world (underwater, underground, above ground). In most mmo there is really nothing to discover, just playing the quests will take you to every corner of the map, show you all there is to see but not in Gw2. There is actually stuff to discover if you leave the beaten path.
true, but i feel a lack of really exploring. the hidden areas not on the map are my favourite, but also very few/small.
the multiple levels to the world is a little overblown tbh. there aren't really that many underground areas outside the starting zones imo.
but my point remains underneath all that. if the max level was 20, you'd have a lot more opened up at once. now i felt like i had to play through maps in a certain order. you could switch between a couple of maps, but not really go explore. often when i try to go explore, i run into parts of the map that are just too highlevel. the only way to not get into these events is going back to lowerlevel areas. however, i've done most lowlevel areas to death because of this.
don't get me wrong, i really enjoy playing guildwars 2. but i can't shake the feeling the game would have been better if it ended at lvl 20. a sense of progression that more closely resembled gw1 (gathering skillpoints/skills) and less themepark gameplay (you're lvl X now, go to zone Y and do heart A, B and C in order because we have a level-suggestion and higherlevels slaughter you).
raspberry jam, on 19 February 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:
Except that which parts of content is desirable is different for different people. Exploration and seeking out the challenges that you want to take on is desirable for some people, picking apples and checking skale traps is desirable for others. You do make a good point though, because a fundamental problem is that most content in GW2 is boring. However, there is still a strong case to be had for challenge the success of beating which is decided by skill instead of time spent, something that you ignored because admitting it would mean admitting that the main content structure of GW2 would need to be redesigned.
GW2 is made to be a level/gear grind game right from the start, it's unfortunate but it's true.
I love how different people like different things when the argument suites you but thats same argument doesnt apply to your most content in gw2 is boring.
Anyhow back on subject. One problem with your whole argument. Hearts which is what you describe as (picking apples and checking skale traps) isnt something you just find in level 3 areas, they're all over the world up to and including level 80. Exploration and challenges are also available at level 3. So if you want to go Altar Brook Vale in order to stop the centaurs from destroying the camp on the hill there or to stop the bandits from taking over the farm close by you can go to shaemoor garrison and stop the centaurs from invading the garrison or the aqueduct to stop the bandits from poisoning it / stealing the blueprints etc.. or even to the shaemoor fields and stop the spider infestation / mother wurm / harpy invasion / rock golem etc...
Like I said before the same content you find a level 3 you'll find at level 8 and you'l find at level 80. If you dont like hearts, then skip them. If you also dont like DE then PvE in Gw2 isnt for you, getting to max level will not change that fact. On the other hand if you dont like Hearts but like DE, then just dont do hearts, if you find yourself short of XP (which dont think you will really ) just do something else, visit another zone, craft something, do a story mission, explore a bit more, do some WvW... plenty of options to catch up without having to repeat anything.
Targren, on 19 February 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:
His calculations DO seem wrong, but your guess is just ridiculous. On my latest lowbie alt (a human warrior), after getting 100% completion in Queensdale, doing every single DE that I came across, AND making sure I didn't play any of my other toons before getting all my dailies on the warrior for the extra XP, she was STILL one level too low to equip the level 14 armor that I got for the reward. Finishing Wayfarer's got her all the way to level 19.
Hanging around, not doing anything worthwhile while you wait for events to trigger? Sounds like the worst kind of grind.
I can assure when I finished queensdale I was 2 boxes away from level 19. Everyone has a different experiance what can I tell you!
I agree handing around doing nothing would be the worst kind of grind, which is why I dont hang around doing nothing. I would first use some of the time talking to the npcs, then I would use the rest of the time to work on achievements, I would explore in the vicinity, kill mobs, gather etc.. Luckly they made it so npc chatter in DE is loud an clear for quite a distance from the area so as long as the areas is on the mini map you're free to roam.
The point is the things you said are pointless without any rationale. The whole world isn't going to take your word on it, especially when it's how nearly everything operates from cradle to grave.
Actually that's exactly how things work. If you haven't noticed books written for children at age 4 are very different than books written for children at age 8, which are very different than books written for children at age 14, which are very different than books written for adults. The alphabet doesn't keep changing all the time, but the vocabulary, level of subtext, and level of referencing and compexity changes quite dramatically. Then you have different subjects or types of reading that have their own requirements. You don't employ the same style of reading for a personal novel in your free time as you do for SAT questions. Children do not learn to read in kindergarten and call it quits, at least not successful ones we would call literate, they continually learn into adulthood and even beyond that. The same is true of GW2, we learn the profession incrementally until we get to level 80 and then we can still learn more if we want, but there is always that general standard of understanding. If you meet someone that you know is literate you can assume their reading level by their age range, you would not expect a first grader to read and understand The Republic, just like you would assume an adult can read more than Duck and Goose Find a Pumpkin. You can assume a level 80 knows more than a level 60, which knows more than a level 40, and so on. They are different ranges of development.
Then perhaps your problem is in what role you choose. I guess the difference is I don't pick "leveler" as my role as I play the game. This is the problem of subjectivity, the things I do are not necessarily the things you do nor are the things I focus on. You just have to be honest with yourself and do what you want, otherwise why are you doing it? Compare GW2 to any game in the genre, would you really be completely free in any of them?
How is this any different than a level-less game? In a level-less game you wander aimlessly until something too difficult kills you. Then you search for a while and eventually abandon the area because the item/enchantment/skill you need is actually on the other side of the map and you would never know it otherwise. Maybe you'll run into it later, maybe not. Or maybe you'll pick the quick path, play for seven minutes and kill the "end boss" and you can drop the game forever. Both are real situations out of a level-less game, Morrowind. If you can kill the end boss in seven minutes why do anything? If you can walk a straight path to the best gear in ten minutes why play any longer? In a level-less game the motivation is the same as a game with levels and it's different for every player. Is there a place for a game like that? The market says no, but I'd say yes. Would it be an effective MMO? Nope.
Absolutely, subtext and structure and vocabulary and so on changes, while the alphabet does not. And that is exactly why stats should be kept still while the amount of tools available to you should increase: new skills, new gear types (altering, but not increasing the raw power of, your stats and abilities), new tactics taught and required, all of that should absolutely accompany the progression in a game - but at the same time, just like a 7-year-old can read books meant for 15-year-olds if they can handle them, a relatively new player should not be artificially restricted from taking on any challenge that the player can handle.
Basically, sure you would not expect a first-grader from understanding The Republic, but assuming that some rare first-grader would be capable of it, you should not prevent her from reading it.
But that is what levels do.
Anyway, if you don't "pick leveler as your role", then why do you want levels to restrict you?
Many GW2 players have killed Zhaitan (multiple times, even, with different characters), and many GW2 players have acquired max gear, and still play. Same thing for GW1: the vast majority would beat each campaign and get max gear within let's say 100 hours to be safe (probably a lot less), but lots of people still racked up thousands of hours. And there are plenty of people who played Morrowind long after learning how to beat the game in seven minutes. You tried to make a point, and you did, but not really the one you meant to make, I think.
I love how different people like different things when the argument suites you but thats same argument doesnt apply to your most content in gw2 is boring.
Anyhow back on subject. One problem with your whole argument. Hearts which is what you describe as (picking apples and checking skale traps) isnt something you just find in level 3 areas, they're all over the world up to and including level 80. Exploration and challenges are also available at level 3. So if you want to go Altar Brook Vale in order to stop the centaurs from destroying the camp on the hill there or to stop the bandits from taking over the farm close by you can go to shaemoor garrison and stop the centaurs from invading the garrison or the aqueduct to stop the bandits from poisoning it / stealing the blueprints etc.. or even to the shaemoor fields and stop the spider infestation / mother wurm / harpy invasion / rock golem etc...
Like I said before the same content you find a level 3 you'll find at level 8 and you'l find at level 80. If you dont like hearts, then skip them. If you also dont like DE then PvE in Gw2 isnt for you, getting to max level will not change that fact. On the other hand if you dont like Hearts but like DE, then just dont do hearts, if you find yourself short of XP (which dont think you will really ) just do something else, visit another zone, craft something, do a story mission, explore a bit more, do some WvW... plenty of options to catch up without having to repeat anything.
People do like different things. Some people just like to do boring things. I know why, and I also know that once they realize that doing fun things is fun, they stop liking the boring things.
As I said, which you once again ignored, the thing you point out as a problem with my argument isn't a problem with my argument, but a part of it. The entire content structure of GW2 would have to be redesigned if they lowered the cap or removed levels, since currently it is meant as a level/gear grind game. As a boredom simulator, it is doing a great job! It has huge sales figures and a respectable playerbase. As I said, some people like to do boring things.
http://wiki.guildwar...wiki/Experience
Especially "map completion" part. That way you can easily calculate how much XP you should minimally get from each zone. That does not include kills, gathering, DEs, ...
I do not stand around waiting for stuff to happen, I simply do not play the game enough that I could waste time like that. Not only that, standing in an empty area, killing deer isn't my idea of a fun time. It's, as Targren mentioned, grind.
Targren, on 19 February 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:
His calculations DO seem wrong, but your guess is just ridiculous. On my latest lowbie alt (a human warrior), after getting 100% completion in Queensdale, doing every single DE that I came across, AND making sure I didn't play any of my other toons before getting all my dailies on the warrior for the extra XP, she was STILL one level too low to equip the level 14 armor that I got for the reward. Finishing Wayfarer's got her all the way to level 19.
Thank you for providing pretty much the exact same numbers I posted above. Clearly I am not doing something insanely wrong, when other folks get completely comparable results.
true, but i feel a lack of really exploring. the hidden areas not on the map are my favourite, but also very few/small.
the multiple levels to the world is a little overblown tbh. there aren't really that many underground areas outside the starting zones imo.
but my point remains underneath all that. if the max level was 20, you'd have a lot more opened up at once. now i felt like i had to play through maps in a certain order. you could switch between a couple of maps, but not really go explore. often when i try to go explore, i run into parts of the map that are just too highlevel. the only way to not get into these events is going back to lowerlevel areas. however, i've done most lowlevel areas to death because of this.
don't get me wrong, i really enjoy playing guildwars 2. but i can't shake the feeling the game would have been better if it ended at lvl 20. a sense of progression that more closely resembled gw1 (gathering skillpoints/skills) and less themepark gameplay (you're lvl X now, go to zone Y and do heart A, B and C in order because we have a level-suggestion and higherlevels slaughter you).
let me ask you this hypothetical scenario, level cap is 20 as you wanted, you finished queensdale and just reached level 20 where would you go next in order?
raspberry jam, on 19 February 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:
People do like different things. Some people just like to do boring things. I know why, and I also know that once they realize that doing fun things is fun, they stop liking the boring things.
As I said, which you once again ignored, the thing you point out as a problem with my argument isn't a problem with my argument, but a part of it. The entire content structure of GW2 would have to be redesigned if they lowered the cap or removed levels, since currently it is meant as a level/gear grind game. As a boredom simulator, it is doing a great job! It has huge sales figures and a respectable playerbase. As I said, some people like to do boring things.
How do you think Gw2 would change if level cap was 20 exactly? Do you think things would have been made tougher then they are by any chance?
For you it may be a boredom simulator, for me many things about it are quite fun and done exactly how I wanted things to work in MMOs. Remember your different people like different things. There is a good chance i might find your favorite MMO a boredom simulator who knows... we can put that at the test, which MMO comes closest to the perfect MMO for you?
let me ask you this hypothetical scenario, level cap is 20 as you wanted, you finished queensdale and just reached level 20 where would you go next in order?
But the point is that there would be no order, you could go where you pleased instead of where you had to.
let me ask you this hypothetical scenario, level cap is 20 as you wanted, you finished queensdale and just reached level 20 where would you go next in order?
How do you think Gw2 would change if level cap was 20 exactly? Do you think things would have been made tougher then they are by any chance?
For you it may be a boredom simulator, for me many things about it are quite fun and done exactly how I wanted things to work in MMOs. Remember your different people like different things. There is a good chance i might find your favorite MMO a boredom simulator who knows... we can put that at the test, which MMO comes closest to the perfect MMO for you?
No, I don't think so (because new ANet isn't old ANet), but I would like if it happened in that way.
Probably a mix between GW1 (for the itemization model, general setting, focus on party-oriented gameplay and many other things) and EVE (for the hugely player driven economy, and the freedom to do any stupid thing you like, anything from attacking ships in hi sec space to starting your own bank and then running away with all the money), possibly with the inclusion of a working deep world system (like the one intended for UO). And either no levels, or infinite levels that quickly approach a constant power level (as asymptote), as I described earlier in this thread. How does that sound to you?
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XPhiler, on 19 February 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:
