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Is GW2's combat system a step backwards from GW1?


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#121 chuckles79

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 10:24 PM

GW1, outside of PvP, was click to move, press C and then spacebar; then spam your skills until they dropped.  My father got GWAMM at age 62, by repeating this formula for 5 years.

GW2 has an active system that requires dodging and positions.

GW1 was about going to PvXwiki, then copying and pasting builds.  GW2 allows you to build however you wish.


They are both viable systems and there is nothing wrong with either.  I think ANet made the right decision based on the world they created...both times.

#122 Perm Shadow Form

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 10:30 PM

GW2 is more scrub friendly than GW1.

Even so, I agree, bad players in GW1 did use cookie cutter builds all the time, but it cant be said about all the players, AND EVEN IF you used cookie cutter build, EACH profession had more than 5 DIFFERENT cookie cutter builds unlike in GW2.

Lazy combat system that tries to pretend to be something unique while it clearly isn't.

Give me an option to run 2 GS skills and 8 support skills, let me be a warrior with 8 attacks or elementalist with both earth and fire magic simultaneously.

#123 mdapol

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 10:39 PM

View PostPerm Shadow Form, on 19 February 2013 - 10:30 PM, said:

GW2 is more scrub friendly than GW1.

Even so, I agree, bad players in GW1 did use cookie cutter builds all the time, but it cant be said about all the players, AND EVEN IF you used cookie cutter build, EACH profession had more than 5 DIFFERENT cookie cutter builds unlike in GW2.

Lazy combat system that tries to pretend to be something unique while it clearly isn't.

Give me an option to run 2 GS skills and 8 support skills, let me be a warrior with 8 attacks or elementalist with both earth and fire magic simultaneously.

Why?  And where do you draw the line?

Why not the ability to be dual-classed? Or to wield land weapons underwater. Or vice-versa. Limits exist for a reason.  A totally unlimited game would be unstable.

#124 Infuse

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 10:48 PM

I wonder what ex-high tier guild wars 1 GvG players have to say about that... Because some of you, well most of you If I may, are mostly non-GvG-Ah players. And that's where gw2's gameplay has broken my heart the most....

I think this topic has 2 directions :
gw1 pve vs gw2 pve
gw1 pvp vs gw2 pvp

Would be good to precise wich of these 2 you guys are talking about. And I feel like the first one has no interest... Like seriously, everyone knows the pve in guild wars 1 has a lot of flaws, some good points but gw2's pve is a lot better while lacks something.

All my posts have been about the second path (pvp vs pvp) but i'd like to say something on the first one :

- I don't like guild wars 2's UI... I loved the gw1's UI, the customisation, the damage spam (with hundreds blades for example).
- I loved the fact that you could prepare your builds for a mission, or a zone, and I feel like gw1 hasn't exploited this enough because of the conset, farming builds, etc. I know guild wars 2 can do the same, but for the moment I feel like when you have a good build in pve, you're pretty much versatyle... and changing your skills is just a matter of optimisation (excluding high tier fractals here).

#125 El Duderino

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 10:52 PM

View PostNorn Osprey, on 19 February 2013 - 10:14 PM, said:

No, I do not need to spam skills. Every weapon has a base attack that can be auto-enabled. To use CC skills as a damage ability shows a lack of comprehension and consideration on the player.

By the design of the game, you are forced to smash buttons upon recharge. There are very few skills that aren't damage based. Therefore, in order to increase damage, you need to repeat hitting buttons until you have won your encounter. Because, there is little utility skills available, there are very few skills that aren't worth smashing until you win your encounter.

Perhaps you may only use auto attack to attack (which is pretty useless considering you do have good skills of dealing damage) but everyone else I know pretty much use their skills on recharge, because it kills quicker.

The lack of any mana pool basically means that you don't need to have any other thought process into how often to use your skills, because there is no deterrent to use them upon recharge. Of course, there is a gray area of when to use certain attacks, but that doesn't mean that this game, by design, requires less button smashing and less thinking than GW1.

View PostNorn Osprey, on 19 February 2013 - 10:14 PM, said:

I don't work for Arena Net. I can't tell you why things in the game are the way they are. Asking me is pointless but you know that when you put the question out there. You weren't trying to get an answer, none of this is about an answer. You are angry, bitter and lashing out at anyone that disagrees with you.

Not really, I just think it is immature to use the expression "gasp! Anet said they are going to do that."

Really, that isn't very productive is it?

View PostNorn Osprey, on 19 February 2013 - 10:14 PM, said:

What if more players decide to leave?  Then they leave. What will or can Arena Net do to keep them? If players have decided to leave, then they will leave no matter what Anet decides to do.

If you think that the actions of a gaming company doesn't influence whether players stay or leave, then I don't know what to tell you. I think that the actions of a gaming company are the exact reasons why people stay and people leave. I mean, who else would be responsible for the content that affects a person's decision to stay or leave?

View PostNorn Osprey, on 19 February 2013 - 10:14 PM, said:

I used that gesture once. You used it four times. Which one of us is the condescending one?

I used it for effect because, as I am sure you now understand, it is not appropriate and does not belong in the conversation. I am sure you feel similar to how I felt when I read the same thing.

View PostNorn Osprey, on 19 February 2013 - 10:14 PM, said:

I never said I didn't enjoy playing with other people. I said, I didn't enjoy wasting my time on drama majors. There is a difference but again, you knew that when you posed the question. You weren't really looking for a reply. You were baiting and trolling.

I apologize if I was mistaken. I wasn't trolling or baiting. It sounded like you did not like the idea of group mechanics in a game - which made me wonder what drove you to MMO's in the first place.

View PostNorn Osprey, on 19 February 2013 - 10:14 PM, said:

Have you watched/listened to Izzy Cartwights 3 part long interview where he details why GW1 wouldnt be ported into GW2?  Why it was impossible to actually balance the skills ? Why it was a mistake to design GW1 the way it was?

GW1 combat was a train wreck. There are reasons why no one designs games like that anymore. Listen to Izzy's interviews. I have the links at home and will post them when I get their tonight.

No, I have not, and I will be interested to watch/listen. I agree 100% that with the arrival of Factions, skills in Guild Wars 1 were unbalanced and remained unbalanced until I quit playing.

When I first heard about GW2, I (wrongly) assumed that ANet would make a system that fixed those balance problems while allowing for   strong similarities between the games.

Again, this is from a mostly PvP perspective - but I think that ANet took a step backwards in how they thought to balance the skills.

Much of this revolves around the loss of utility skills in skill bars and getting rid of utility classes. It is no secret that ANet dumbed down the whole experience to cater to casual players. Do you disagree?

View PostNorn Osprey, on 19 February 2013 - 10:14 PM, said:

And I will say again, nothing in GW1 was really that difficult once PvX, YouTube vids, Wiki comments were put in describing in detail what players needed for any given mission/map/etc.

How many gold capes do you have?

Furthermore, how is that any different than any other MMO? Do you not expect there to be YouTube vids and wiki comments describing the best ways to conquer certain areas of GW2? The only reason it wouldn't happen is because ANet makes it so easy to beat those areas that it isn't necessary - which is also a bit of a failing attitude if it happens.

View PostNorn Osprey, on 19 February 2013 - 10:14 PM, said:

Opinions can't be right or wrong, they just are.

I agree.

View PostNorn Osprey, on 19 February 2013 - 10:14 PM, said:

Complete and utter Bull. This is, flat out, a bold faced lie.

Yes, I said that quite poorly. Yes, having optimal builds makes you have a greater chance of winning. However, that doesn't mean skill isn't required. My apologies for not saying what I mean more succinctly.

View PostNorn Osprey, on 19 February 2013 - 10:14 PM, said:

Prophecies was interesting, so was GW1 beta which I was a part of, before skill bloat and heroes were added. Players had to work together to clear areas/missions.

I could not agree with you more. Everything that was great about Guild Wars 2 happened before Factions. Unfortunately, very little of that carried over to GW2. I just hope that it gets found.

(continued below...)

Edited by El Duderino, 19 February 2013 - 10:53 PM.


#126 Norn Osprey

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 10:53 PM

Isaiah Cartwright three part interview.



From that link, you can click to see the other videos.

#127 r3fl3kT0r

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 10:53 PM

View Postmdapol, on 19 February 2013 - 10:39 PM, said:

Why?  And where do you draw the line?

Why not the ability to be dual-classed? Or to wield land weapons underwater. Or vice-versa. Limits exist for a reason.  A totally unlimited game would be unstable.

You are absolutly right !!!
Anet for 5 months cannot balace 1/4 of the game.. We even cannot emagine how hard ll be if we got limitless skill paths/system (Even PoE got a limitet bulds)
I think GW and GW2 is too different to be compared in many ways but yes different game different skill system is better tham same same same in MMOs

#128 El Duderino

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 10:55 PM

Spoiler

Edited by Feathermoore, 20 February 2013 - 04:41 PM.
Please refrain from quote wars.


#129 Dirame

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 11:13 PM

View PostInfuse, on 19 February 2013 - 09:40 PM, said:

You're probably right. I hope that the PvP in guild wars 2 will evolve a lot more and have stuff like spikes (I really, really, really loved calling spikes !) and long team battles... Because as of right now, rupting a rez isn't gonna make me love the pvp.

GW2 PvP already has that! How do you think people take down Guardians and Bunker Eles? Coordinated spikes are natural to the game already. What needs to be even more natural is coordinated builds as well, I'm hoping that develops with time.

#130 typographie

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 11:24 PM

View PostPerm Shadow Form, on 19 February 2013 - 10:30 PM, said:

Even so, I agree, bad players in GW1 did use cookie cutter builds all the time, but it cant be said about all the players, AND EVEN IF you used cookie cutter build, EACH profession had more than 5 DIFFERENT cookie cutter builds unlike in GW2.

I'm not sure we played the same game. Good players were the ones who invented the cookie-cutter setups, and certainly used them. If you "invented" your own good build, chances are you weren't the only one running it for very long, or it was just a minor variation of something else. To say that only bad players used cookie-cutter builds denies the definition of that term.

I can't speak for every class as I don't have equal experience with all of them, but warriors in PvP tended to have two long-lasting cookie cutter builds: axe with Eviscerate + Shock + Bull's, and hammer KD chains. And typically if you were playing the latter, it was because your team already had the former. Any others tended to be ephemeral FotM-type things, lasting only a short time before being patched out.


View PostEl Duderino, on 19 February 2013 - 10:55 PM, said:

Hard to kite when you can't use bodies to block - which I think is a feature that is sadly missed.

Agreed. You've got me there, body-blocking was a good feature.

#131 Krazzar

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 11:41 PM

View PostDirame, on 19 February 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

I really don't get all this GW2 hate, it makes no sense to someone who loved and adored GW1 for it's build wars metagame and loves GW2 for almost the same reason. Yes, GW2 has less of it but not none of it.
In fact, GW2 feels less like a chore because of the flexibility it allows players whilst in combat and possibly some of you guys consider this "chore" that was in GW1 to be "more depth". I could say, to each his own but no one's gonna listen anyway.

I loved GW1 for what it was but, I'm not going to compare to GW2 because I feel that would be a disservice to both games. They are so different that similarities only come in the most minute of details.

I'd have to agree and I don't have GW2 hate compared to GW1.  For me GW2 is better in almost every way than GW1. GW1 just had a fundamental PvP focus in design that forced Anet into innumerable small and large band-aid fixes to try to make the PvE world work and a new attempt with every expansion to get people to play PvP. In GW2 it's reversed, PvE systems got quite a bit of polish and consideration, while structured PvP is relatively light. If you're a player looking for expanded PvP from GW1 GW2 will come up short. I'm not a PvP-focused player so GW2 overall is a great improvement, but I understand where PvP players could be coming from. WvW isn't the be-all-end-all answer either, it has its own problems that make it unappealing to the hardcore PvP crowd.

Over time PvP will be expanded, but the clear answer from players was that PvP isn't what most people want.

#132 El Duderino

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 11:42 PM

View Posttypographie, on 19 February 2013 - 11:24 PM, said:

I can't speak for every class as I don't have equal experience with all of them, but warriors in PvP tended to have two long-lasting cookie cutter builds: axe with Eviscerate + Shock + Bull's, and hammer KD chains. And typically if you were playing the latter, it was because your team already had the former. Any others tended to be ephemeral FotM-type things, lasting only a short time before being patched out.

Warriors were definitely limited to a smaller variety of skills. In fact, there were only a handful of skill bars for any class that made it into PvP. I think Ele's had the biggest variation of skills than any other class, with Mesmers a close second.

There was a cohesiveness in GW1 PvP that I think still lacks in GW2, which is tied around the solo build idea. Because every profession basically needs to be self sufficient, there is a lack of utility, which might be one of my problems with the game. I just felt there were more options in GW1 even though there were still cookie cutter builds - and most of it revolved around utility professions such as elementalists and mesmers.

View Posttypographie, on 19 February 2013 - 11:24 PM, said:

Agreed. You've got me there, body-blocking was a good feature.

Glad we can agree on something.

Perhaps I do look back on GW1 with rose colored glasses, because I saw the potential. Yes, I hated the problems - and there were many. I just kept thinking that GW2 was going to be a GW1 without the problems and better graphics and some new game play mechanics that made it better and more advanced. I just don't feel GW2 is that game. Yes, I know this is a personal problem, but there are lots of people that feel the same way - which is why I think it is a problem worth sorting out. I mean, what the hell else am I going to do at work? Do work?

Guild Wars 2 is not a terrible game by any stretch. There are lots of good things about it. Perhaps I am just being too nostalgic, but I really think there are some things in GW1 that they left out of GW2 which could make the game better.

Right or wrong, I have tried to express that opinion in this thread and I hope everyone can understand we all want the game to be better. Unfortunately, not all of us can agree on what better means.

View PostKrazzar, on 19 February 2013 - 11:41 PM, said:

I'd have to agree and I don't have GW2 hate compared to GW1.  For me GW2 is better in almost every way than GW1. GW1 just had a fundamental PvP focus in design that forced Anet into innumerable small and large band-aid fixes to try to make the PvE world work and a new attempt with every expansion to get people to play PvP. In GW2 it's reversed, PvE systems got quite a bit of polish and consideration, while structured PvP is relatively light. If you're a player looking for expanded PvP from GW1 GW2 will come up short. I'm not a PvP-focused player so GW2 overall is a great improvement, but I understand where PvP players could be coming from. WvW isn't the be-all-end-all answer either, it has its own problems that make it unappealing to the hardcore PvP crowd.

Over time PvP will be expanded, but the clear answer from players was that PvP isn't what most people want.

I think this is a great post.

#133 Kymeric

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:11 AM

View PostPerm Shadow Form, on 19 February 2013 - 10:30 PM, said:

Even so, I agree, bad players in GW1 did use cookie cutter builds all the time, but it cant be said about all the players, AND EVEN IF you used cookie cutter build, EACH profession had more than 5 DIFFERENT cookie cutter builds unlike in GW2.

Huh.  You must be talking about GW1 at a different time than I played.  I know I missed the golden age, from everything I've read by GW1 vets.  I played for a little over a year before GW2 launch, and, as far as I can tell, there was one, and only one cookie cutter/meta build for general PvE for my 'Sin.

#134 Minion

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 03:34 AM

View PostKymeric, on 20 February 2013 - 12:11 AM, said:

Huh.  You must be talking about GW1 at a different time than I played.  I know I missed the golden age, from everything I've read by GW1 vets.  I played for a little over a year before GW2 launch, and, as far as I can tell, there was one, and only one cookie cutter/meta build for general PvE for my 'Sin.

Assassins had critscythes, DB spam, JS-FF-DB chain, assacaster builds which were always shit in PvE, and Shadow Form. And then a million variations on all those builds.

i guess you just stuck to shadow form farming tho.

Of course, people are going to focus on the builds and skills, but Guild Wars required a higher skill level than GW2, regardless of the "active gameplay hurr durr". You had hexes and conditions, now we just have conditions. You had all kinds of enchantments, stances and skills, while now you have just boons.

It wasn't just about "get the right build and faceroll". Try completing UW with 7 heroes, then tell me there is no skill involved in GW PvE. You had to learn about pulling, aggro, over-extending from your healers, balling, kiting, interrupting key skills, how to create the perfect nuke (mark of pain+vos btw) and of course, balancing team composition to survive battles but also stomping them as fast as possible.

"Cookie cutter" builds were always extremely safe, so one was not always compelled to use an ounce of skill, and this should not be all that is remembered of GW's high learning curve. It showed there was room in that game for casuals and hardcore players alike. Here, it's all too casual.

#135 lazykoala

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 03:48 AM

It reminds me of what wow did with the talent trees. Removed just about everything because they believed in addition by subtraction, but instead (at least for me) it made the game less fun by reducing any and all choices the player gets to choose from. That was in the top 2 reasons why I stopped playing wow. And now gw2 has done something similar....although to a lesser extent. They reduced choice,  but also changed things a bit which is the only saving grace that allows me to still enjoy playing this game to some degree. I've said it a million times....I'd rather have a billion choices and have it be unbalanced rather than have only a few choices and be more balanced.

#136 nasl1nkz

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 04:38 AM

I absolutely miss the build-creativity from gw1, which came with cross-professions. you will not see things like 55hp monk, knockdown ranger or bip necro, because it's not possible with the simplified skill system. Although the combat with some of these builds is in realtiy quite boring, but the build itself is genious.
the actual combat system is superior to gw1 in my opinion, and i think it will develop further as time goes by. slowly people starting to get the idea behind combo field/finishers (as its heavily pushed by the WvW-community and in my opinion a major aspect of gw2 combat) and transport some rotations/intros into PvE. there is still a lot of potential in weapon swaps/sigills for example many players are not aware of. In sPvP you already see very coordinated teamplay, syncing stuns and spikes, interrupting heals, crapping boons and so on. I think many people are still in the dd/supporter/tank mindset,it takes some time to move on and create more playstyles. When you go out there, you will find mostly three or four playstyles or builds, (glasscannon, condidmg, "boonsupport" and something like allround) regardless the class, but that will spread out as people will discover new ways to team up.

I actually like being able to play any dungeon or pve content without waiting for a designated tank/healer and searching for the right group combination. Dropping in the fractals and have an hour of fun is something gw1 never offered, i can't count the hours I wasted right in front of FoW waiting for a monk, fe.

Edited by nasl1nkz, 20 February 2013 - 04:39 AM.


#137 Afyael

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 06:02 AM

Just gonna leave this here:

The combat in this game is so shallow its almost unbelievable that it came from the same company.

Edit: Go to 14:40 if you want to see a good example of bodyblocking.

Edited by Afyael, 20 February 2013 - 06:03 AM.


#138 Craywulf

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 06:57 AM

GW1's combat was not all that exciting, it was all about 2 things, your skill bar and how well you executed them. GW2's skillbar is half as important as it was in GW1, but there is a lot more  hand and eye coordination. So execution player a more predominant role in your success or failure. This gives the perception that GW1's combat is more complicated.

I personally don't equate a complicated skill bar as "better". Furthermore I fully understand the necessity of the changes. I also can see the vast potential for improving the combat while keeping the goal of reduced imbalance. I been saying this in other threads, I believe what's missing in GW2's combat is the lack of importance Cross-Profession-Combos (CPCs). They don't have any superior benefit of executing CPCs over the usual spamming conditions that zergs do. There needs to HUGE benefit of doing them, and mobs and champions need have specific vulnerabilities to them. This will help make the roles more obvious, and encourage the zerg to disperse into a more organized group.

#139 Minion

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 07:21 AM

If they had improved GW's Observer mode, it would have been the perfect PvP game. And, of course, not facking up the balance of some skills.

#140 Afyael

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 07:36 AM

View PostCraywulf, on 20 February 2013 - 06:57 AM, said:

GW1's combat was not all that exciting, it was all about 2 things, your skill bar and how well you executed them. GW2's skillbar is half as important as it was in GW1, but there is a lot more  hand and eye coordination. So execution player a more predominant role in your success or failure. This gives the perception that GW1's combat is more complicated.

I personally don't equate a complicated skill bar as "better". Furthermore I fully understand the necessity of the changes. I also can see the vast potential for improving the combat while keeping the goal of reduced imbalance. I been saying this in other threads, I believe what's missing in GW2's combat is the lack of importance Cross-Profession-Combos (CPCs). They don't have any superior benefit of executing CPCs over the usual spamming conditions that zergs do. There needs to HUGE benefit of doing them, and mobs and champions need have specific vulnerabilities to them. This will help make the roles more obvious, and encourage the zerg to disperse into a more organized group.

I would disagree with the hand eye coordination point. In PvE you would be absolutely right. In PvP it's a much more different matter, as a monk I never looked at my keyboard in a match, not once, ever! I had to memorize every single key. I weaponswapped every cast whenever applicable, used cancel-casts when I was being camped, I had to stop kiting for a second when a warrior was about to hit me with bulls strike, I had to swap to my shield set to hammer bash an assasin. When I played ranger/mesmer I had to have good hand eye coordination to interrupt skills, as a ranger I had to position myself well so that I could interrupt targets taking into account flight time of the arrow but without making it obvious that I was camping them, mesmer interrupts had shorter activations and were instant but I still had to be wary because I was much squishier than a ranger. Rangers also were often on poison detail, using savage shot/magebane to spread quick poison throughout the team for pressure. Warriors? Quarterknocking and quarterstepping were essential to applying pressure on their part, you had to be good at predicting enemy movements and landing bulls strikes as that is what got kills. Even assasins, as faceroll as shadow prism and sinsplit was, at least you had to learn positioning. They would get torn to pieces in seconds if they were caught out or made a bad engage. That's basic stuff for players in even top 200-300 guilds. You don't even need positioning in GW2, there is no midline, backline or anything, you just dodge roll out of trouble(or if you're a thief you abuse perma invisibility).

There were so much depth to GW1 it's almost impossible to explain it to someone that hasn't played high level pvp, someone missing an interrupt or infusion could lose you the game. I'll grant you that interrupts are harder to pull off in this game but that's about it. Guild Wars 2 tries to make combat more action orientated yet it has all these passive boons/conditions like retaliation and confusion that are just plain lazy!

I admit that after the power creep of nightfall and addition of heroes you could literally go through pve with an empty skillbar c-spacing everything and have your heroes do the work for 90% of the game but for the elite areas and pvp (except for RA) you needed to play well. This is the difference between guild wars 1 and guild wars 2, getting better as a player (and becoming more creative/innovative with your builds) vs a vertical progression grind.

Edited by Afyael, 20 February 2013 - 07:40 AM.


#141 Perm Shadow Form

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 07:49 AM

View Posttypographie, on 19 February 2013 - 11:24 PM, said:

I'm not sure we played the same game. Good players were the ones who invented the cookie-cutter setups, and certainly used them. If you "invented" your own good build, chances are you weren't the only one running it for very long, or it was just a minor variation of something else. To say that only bad players used cookie-cutter builds denies the definition of that term.

I can't speak for every class as I don't have equal experience with all of them, but warriors in PvP tended to have two long-lasting cookie cutter builds: axe with Eviscerate + Shock + Bull's, and hammer KD chains. And typically if you were playing the latter, it was because your team already had the former. Any others tended to be ephemeral FotM-type things, lasting only a short time before being patched out.
And if so, Shock Eviscerate was a PvP build. And Warriors didn't run just 1 build there. There were tons different builds. Same goes for all other professions.
And, whatever worked in PvP usually was bad in PvE.

Oh yeah, whatever happened to the thousands of vastly different cross profession combos they promissed before the GW2 release? Failure.

Edited by Perm Shadow Form, 20 February 2013 - 07:50 AM.


#142 Minion

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 08:36 AM

View PostPerm Shadow Form, on 20 February 2013 - 07:49 AM, said:

Shock Eviscerate was a PvP build.

Well....

Mizzouman said:

any more the eviscerate executioners strike spike dont work that much but its fairly effective. very weak against any type of anti-melee and shock is a costly interrupt skill.

Edited by Minion, 20 February 2013 - 08:37 AM.


#143 rukh

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 10:29 AM

My opinion of this matter is that GW2 had some good ideas on how to improve the formula, but either borked some of them or went too far in the right direction to the point where it was the wrong direction.

Kiting.  In GW1 casting rooted you to the ground.  This was an implicit cost for casting (in addition to energy and cooldown) because a stationary character more vulnerable to warriors.  The art of kiting was knowing when to cast your sometimes long spells (divert, lightning orb) and when to keep moving to avoid damage.  This emphasizes good positioning especially for weaker casters because you had to pick the spot you would be rooted for your next spell.  GW2 removes this except for a very small number of skills, and now it's just circle strafing like every other MMO.  R.I.P. q-stepping.

Interrupts.  Everyones gonna have a different opinion of this because it's such a different playstyle.  Personally I prefer GW2's stuns/daze.  It resembles skills like blackout and gale which take prediction and forethought, whereas actual interrupts place most of their emphasis on pure reflex and icon recognition.  Blackout-like skills also create definite windows to make big plays.  Interrupts were never definite (especially against infuse and most prot spells) so they were not utilized as much in that fashion.

Ground Targeted AoE.  Something that the original game lacked was the ability to ground target.  This lets you cast these AoEs more proactively, perhaps anticipating where the enemies will converge, or using to herd enemies in the direction you want them to move, or dissuading them from advancing.  Great for positional emphasis, and great from a UI perspective, great change.

The skill system.  Yea thousand+ skills was impossible to balance and lead to some extremely lopsided bars (pure damage or pure utility being more viable than just about every jack of all trades build) which lead to gimmicks everywhere.  I like the mandatory rez and heal, but the extent at which we are limited now feels like they removed the soul of what made GW1 so intriguing in the first place.

Body blocking.  I miss it, but it had to be done.  You can't have bodies obstructing in a open world MMO, otherwise you have trolls afk in doorways preventing passage to certain places.  Also, bodyblocking in GW1 heavily disadvantaged players with worse latency (that phenomenon known as rubber-banding) which could decide matches if that flag runner couldn't get through due to server/client de-sync.

Boons and Conditions.  Well they removed all the 'chants and hexes and consolidated all effects into a dozen conditions and boons.  This was to simplify the game.  On one hand, yes it's less things you have to memorize - more new player friendly.  On the other hand, when I look to see what's afflicting my character, I don't see one distinctive icon.  I see like 10 or so tiny icons I have to squint at to figure out what's happening to my character, how much bleed stacks or vulnerability, all of these things possibly due to one spell.  As opposed to GW1 where even with a complex hex, I could (as an experienced player) look and see one clearly distinct icon and recognize exactly what it was doing to me, which profession casted it on me, etc.

Weapon swap.  I never liked weapon swapping in GW1.  Did it take some skill, yea.  It was required to play the monk class even a low level pvp.  But it was an unnecessary complexity that did little to enhance the game.  It made energy management into a little mini-game in itself so maybe if that's your thing - swap cast swap-back, swap cast swap-back...felt more like busywork than actual decision making.  Not to mention the balance ramifications of letting every profession have the elementalist's e-storage + the warrior's armor + the mesmer's fastcasting.  GW2 had the right idea, but with the cooldown system it's efficient to just cast all the spells, swap and cast all the spells, swap back and repeat.

theres alot more but I will stop here.

Edited by rukh, 20 February 2013 - 10:43 AM.


#144 raspberry jam

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 11:33 AM

View PostMinion, on 20 February 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

Well....
Shock isn't that costly. It's not just an interrupt; it disables a character for 3 seconds.

#145 Elcee

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:02 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 20 February 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

Shock isn't that costly. It's not just an interrupt; it disables a character for 3 seconds.

He's referencing a horrible explaination someone gave for their vote on PVX where they downvoted Shock Axe and it became a meme :P

#146 Kymeric

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 02:41 PM

View PostMinion, on 20 February 2013 - 03:34 AM, said:

Assassins had critscythes, DB spam, JS-FF-DB chain, assacaster builds which were always shit in PvE, and Shadow Form. And then a million variations on all those builds.

i guess you just stuck to shadow form farming tho.

No, I wasn't a farmer.  I just played through the PvE campaigns.

When I played, as far as I understand, critscythe had been "fixed" because it wasn't cool that sins scythed better than dervishes, it being the latter's signature weapon and all.  Barrage crit spam was on the way out because it had been tweaked as well.  The only thing I could find as part of the meta for general PvE was DB dagger spam.

Just to note, you could definitely play with all kinds of builds.  I messed around with my own builds as I played, but the post I responded to (by someone ironically named Perm Shadow Form)was specifically talking about the cookie-cutter meta builds.

Maybe the post was referring to posts across all areas of the game.  One general PvE build, one speed-clear build, one farm build, and two PvP builds would make 5 meta builds.  That's stretching things, though, since a build per area doesn't really qualify as five builds any given class can use.

As for skill, I wasn't saying that GW1 didn't require skill. I was very impressed with a lot of the missions because they required significant thought.  You couldn't just run in and bulldoze through many of them.  I never got to UW before GW2 launched, so I don't know about it specifically.

I just didn't see five cookie cutter builds in the meta for each class during the year before GW2 launch.  It's possible I just missed them, as I played the game in a casual sort of way, just following the storylines and taking a little time to fill out my HoM.

Edited by Kymeric, 20 February 2013 - 02:43 PM.


#147 Yliah Atreides

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 02:46 PM

As I said many times before:

Anet initially labeled GW2's combat system similar to GW1, but with the ability to jump and swim. I'll never understand why they simply didn't stick to this plan.

Having secondary professions created balance issues, but it was fun toying around with the possibilities and synergies.

Having the possibility to freely choose 8 skills from a +-1,300 skill pool for every character created alot of broken builds, but it was actually fun looking for these synergies. I litteraly spend hours theorycrafting builds when I wasn't playing GW.

Creating teambuilds with insane synergies, with each bar individually having it's own synergies resulted in some ridiculous metas (for both PvP and PvE), but it don't think anyone is going to argue against the fact that playing premade well-designed PvP teambuilds was the most fun ever seen in an online game. (Airspike, Vimway, IWAY, Bloodspike, Hexway, Jaggedway, Paraspike, Rspike, Ritspike, Contagionway, SBRI, Zergway, ...)

Guild Wars wasn't just about the actual battle, or even observing the actual battle. It was about the originality of the builds and playstyles. When GW was at it's peak, the best players weren't the best because they were most skilled (which they were), they were the best because they came up with ridiculous builds which absolutely stomped the unsuspecting enemy team time and time again. This entire aspect of Guild Wars was atleast 50% of the fun.

That's why I will never understand why Anet decided to do away with the one thing that made GW1 stand out amongst all the other MMO's (or even PvP games at the time), the insane customisability of your individual and teambuilds.

Edited by Yliah Atreides, 20 February 2013 - 02:54 PM.


#148 El Duderino

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 03:26 PM

View Postrukh, on 20 February 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

My opinion of this matter is that GW2 had some good ideas on how to improve the formula, but either borked some of them or went too far in the right direction to the point where it was the wrong direction.

theres alot more but I will stop here.

An absolutely fantastic post with a lot of depth. Thank you.

#149 Elcee

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 05:42 PM

Very thought provoking post Rukh!

View Postrukh, on 20 February 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

Kiting.
Not much to elaborate on here, you hit it square on the head.

Quote

Interrupts.

We'll probably just agree to disagree here. There was some icon recognition etc., but for Ranger there was a good amount of anticipation and understanding of the battlefield involved in interrupting, and skills like Power Block and Distracting Shot created windows if you(or the *ing wallhacking Ghostly Hero -_-)  could hit something like WoH or RC.

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Ground Targeted AoE.

Yeah I have to agree that it's cool being able to target your AoEs anywhere. I just don't think that would have worked in GW1 though, especially in somewhere like HA where you would be dropping Heats etc. all over the place lol.

Quote

The skill system.

This is the main reason I wish they would have made 2 much more similar. By the end of GW1, Anet didn't know what the hell it was doing with the skill balancing; I don't know how anyone can look at the Dervish update and conclude anything else(AoG Dervs auto-attacking through Spiteful Spirit and gaining health lmao). But in the early, mid, and early-late part of the game(Post LoD nerf) there was actually quite a bit of diversity in builds that made the game interesting. They had to restart, but they didn't need to blow up the combat system and start from scratch.

People like to say "but 90% of skills in GW1 were useless anyway" which is just patently untrue, especially in PvE, where each class had a pretty sizable selection of builds to run, at least before EotN'(the supposed bridge between 1&2) and PvE skills blew everything up. I can think of 3-5 "unique" builds for pretty much every class, and there were a surprisingly large number of "good" elites. Again, some of the decrease in diversity of builds came from the increased complexity and poor balancing. As much as I wailed on Izzy, everyone after him was a disaster(buffed Mind Wrack/Wastrel, basically EVERYTHING about the Derv update in PvP, etc). There is WAY more useless shit in GW2 than in 1, sadly.

Quote

Body blocking.

This is somewhere that I disagree a bit. I think it would have been better to have body-blocking  apply only against enemies in sPvP. There's certainly no way it could have worked in PvE and I can't imagine body-blocking walls in WvW would have gone much better. That shit was the reason I couldn't play snare in HA near the end of GW though(when it seemed to get laggier), I would drop my Ward or Grasping Earth and suddenly be 5 feet away and miss everyone.

Quote

Boons and Conditions.

This is something I absolutely loathe, instead of hexes/enchantments/conditions you just have pretty generic conditions/boons. Yeah it took a bit of learning, but once you got past that you had a much deeper system in GW1 than what you have in 2.

Quote

Weapon swap.

Weapon swapping was something I miss and something I don't at the same time. It was tedious at times(and annoying to make shield sets whenever you rerolled) but it made people think because if you risked switching to your 40/40 from your shield set, you were much more vulnerable. High-energy sets were a different beast IMO and I thought they were kind of an annoying part of the game despite being essential for Monks. Maybe if they had given monks actual e-management instead of making them use OoB/Inspiration Magic/GoLE and then nerfing those then they wouldn't have to have been in the game.


Overall, there's a difference between dumbing down and simplifying, and I think GW2 did the former. =/

Edited by Elcee, 20 February 2013 - 05:43 PM.


#150 Raytla

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 07:38 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 19 February 2013 - 12:32 PM, said:

So everything is subjective provided you think GW2 is better instead if looking at everything through tinted glasses syndrome? Ya, good one.

There is a reason that 99% the PvP player base of GW1 has left GW2 for LoL or other games. The combat system is one major reason.

I really thing that you are giving too much credit to auto-following being an automatic determination for whether something is a success or failure.

Out of curiosity, how do you know 99% of GW1 pvp playerbase has left GW2?  Or was that intended to be pure sarcasm. <_<

Edit:  Nevermind you've already asnwered a similar question that was asked.

Edited by Raytla, 20 February 2013 - 07:43 PM.





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