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Is GW2's combat system a step backwards from GW1?


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#241 Jump_N_Move

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 12:27 AM

Surely you troll craywolf. Every profession has equal access to all boons and conditions? Are you being serious right now?

Yes the removal of specific revive skill that mandated a skill slot was a good thing in both aspects of the game, pve and pvp. The mandatory healing skill slot - is debatable, but still an improvement over the lax self heals of GW1, but also necessary due to the gimping of the monk as a profession.

Sadly one of the core design principles of the game became 'one must be able to solo everything'. Which in turn meant that dedicated protection classes/skill mechanics were to be removed from the game, forcing people to rely more on themselves to stay alive, instead of a 'monk'. This then cascaded down the line into the super-nerfing of class specific skill traits, and the removal of class specific skills. , which neutered the combat depth that was offered by the various mechanics of GW1. Professions have to be unique and have unique skills because that's why they are professions.
Warrior = Heavy Physical Melee. What does that mean? Swords and lots of armor you say?
Elementalist - Light Magic Ranged. Dainty and likes to throw fireball from a distance or freeze you in ice?
Ranger - Medium Physical Ranged. Likes to shoot bows and arrows and sleep with animals?


Specific/unique skills are inherently part of what makes a profession a profession. If you remove those and give them to everybody, like protection was removed and made completely passive in the form of a boon(s). that profession ceases to exist. At which point in time, the need for any designation of a profession when making a character is unnecessary because all classes just became the same. With nothing unique, everything is the same. Bland. Boring.

This game needs more focus on the unique. Classes needs to standout more, which starts with the lack of useful traits and their impact on the gameplay. Which is caused by the delusion that class specific skill/traits were ever a bad thing. Removing the protection healer class was not a bad choice, in fact its quite viable, but removing/nerfing the rest of the profession specifics was not necessary or a good decision.

#242 Christo0pher

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 07:38 AM

You can run through characters, which mean kiting is pretty much ineffective compared to what it used to be.

#243 Jump_N_Move

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 08:25 PM

Kiting didn't suffer as much from the ability to run through characters as it did from the ability to cast on the move and the large amount of movement/leap/teleport/swap skills.

All that run through characters did was remove body blocking and gripes about rubber banding.

#244 Arshay Duskbrow

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 03:48 AM

Of course it is. How is this even a debate?

#245 Deathgod Ryuu

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 11:49 AM

View PostEl Duderino, on 04 March 2013 - 01:15 AM, said:

Not that I ever really noticed. It affected RA more than anything.

Oh right I see. What about PvP Sickness?

#246 Craywulf

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 10:30 PM

View PostJump_N_Move, on 05 March 2013 - 12:27 AM, said:

Surely you troll craywolf. Every profession has equal access to all boons and conditions? Are you being serious right now?
I said;

Quote

Every profession can revive, and heal effectively. Giving all professions equal footing to the various conditions and boons is done for balancing, not for the sake of eroding uniqueness.
Equal footing is not the same as "equal access", furthermore I was talking about why  the professions appear  to lack uniqueness. While it's true that not all professions get access to all the conditions and boons, there is a semblance of fairness between the professions in terms of balance. So in a sense there is equal footing among the professions while remaining unique.

Edited by Craywulf, 10 March 2013 - 10:31 PM.


#247 dogg755

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 05:29 PM

i kinda miss secondary professions, but i don't see this implementing well in GW2.

#248 Gladiator Motoko

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 04:10 PM

I promise you, there are no high-end PvPers that play GW2 PvP. (WvW doesn't count - and I don't even think there are WvW high-end GW1 PvPers.

People claim that GW2 PvP is "liberating" - That it gives you options and freedom. Did those people also miss the fact that GW1 was a competitive game? Are you all familiar with football? Soccer? Baseball? Basketball? They all have rules and limitations. You can not simply take a basketball and carry it like a football to the basket and score. Just as a football game - After you are tackled and down, you cannot simply stand up and continue running.

GW1 had rules and limitations. It had boundaries. (See example of body blocking and the lack of jumping in GW1) GW2 is missing that. The closest thing you will ever see to lack of boundaries in GW1 is Alliance Battles. And even that PvP mode had boundaries. Walls are meant to be strategic factors in battle. There are little niches and bugs that GW1 had that you learned to take advantage of. Example: There was no Z-Axis. Remember bridges? You could body block someone on a bridge while standing under it. Or visa versa. These things are meant to be taken advantage of and learned, and excelled at.

Fun fact: Did you know when "Victory or Death" was around that right before it triggered some high-end teams would put on a "low hp" weapon set (-50hp grim cesta) to minimize the effects of permanent health loss for the remainder of the match and then switching back to regular sets? Many of you will consider this a "bug" but there are just things not known in the game that people learned through trial and error and took advantage of to beat your opponent. (This "bug" wasn't game breaking and every player had access to the benefit if you figured it out)

I didn't read the remaining 66% of the thread because I was extremely irritated with some of the GW1 bashing that was going on. I agree completely with the apples and oranges difference in PvP. HOWEVER - That is the primary problem of GW2 PvP. It is a SEQUEL - We SHOULD NOT have to compare two different types of fruit when the orange never needed to be changed so significantly in the first place.

Edited by Feathermoore, 18 April 2013 - 04:36 PM.
removed inflammatory remarks.


#249 lmaonade

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 08:58 AM

oh man I remember when this thread was still new

View PostJump_N_Move, on 05 March 2013 - 12:27 AM, said:

Surely you troll craywolf. Every profession has equal access to all boons and conditions? Are you being serious right now?

Yes the removal of specific revive skill that mandated a skill slot was a good thing in both aspects of the game, pve and pvp. The mandatory healing skill slot - is debatable, but still an improvement over the lax self heals of GW1, but also necessary due to the gimping of the monk as a profession.

Sadly one of the core design principles of the game became 'one must be able to solo everything'. Which in turn meant that dedicated protection classes/skill mechanics were to be removed from the game, forcing people to rely more on themselves to stay alive, instead of a 'monk'. This then cascaded down the line into the super-nerfing of class specific skill traits, and the removal of class specific skills. , which neutered the combat depth that was offered by the various mechanics of GW1. Professions have to be unique and have unique skills because that's why they are professions.
Warrior = Heavy Physical Melee. What does that mean? Swords and lots of armor you say?
Elementalist - Light Magic Ranged. Dainty and likes to throw fireball from a distance or freeze you in ice?
Ranger - Medium Physical Ranged. Likes to shoot bows and arrows and sleep with animals?


Specific/unique skills are inherently part of what makes a profession a profession. If you remove those and give them to everybody, like protection was removed and made completely passive in the form of a boon(s). that profession ceases to exist. At which point in time, the need for any designation of a profession when making a character is unnecessary because all classes just became the same. With nothing unique, everything is the same. Bland. Boring.

This game needs more focus on the unique. Classes needs to standout more, which starts with the lack of useful traits and their impact on the gameplay. Which is caused by the delusion that class specific skill/traits were ever a bad thing. Removing the protection healer class was not a bad choice, in fact its quite viable, but removing/nerfing the rest of the profession specifics was not necessary or a good decision.

you've completely nailed it, I've said it in numerous other places, GW2 tries to do too many things and cater to too many people/tastes/preferences, it's so far spread out that there is nothing unique about it anymore (exaggerating of course, but point still stands), if there is no dedication from the game then there will be no dedication from the player.

I'm not saying that GW2's class/combat design is an unplayable mess, because it's not, it's fine, but it lacks very important elements to provide longevity, if i'm going to be playing GW2 for months and months, then I need something from somewhere that'll hold my interest and keep things fresh. The class and combat design specifically fail to do this, this hybrid between an action game and the old style targeted combat just doesn't work in it's current state. If you look at more action-y MMOs such as Blade and Soul, the combat feels a lot more real and visceral, like each action actually does something. In GW2 I just sort of mow through enemies without any sort of thought or work, the only exception being the dodge mechanic, which leads to it being the only mechanic that gives combat any sort of life or drive.
Hell, in the skill preview videos before GW2 came out, I thought the combat looked amazing, a lot of the sound effects and animations were satisfying and hits seemed to carry a lot of weight, but in actual practice, the combat moves way too fast for those things to shine through. But now I'm just rambling.

Edited by lmaonade, 18 April 2013 - 09:18 AM.


#250 Feathermoore

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 02:50 PM

The thread ran its course a while back now. Bringing it back up just started a flame war.

Closed.

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