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Koroshi's d/d immortal thief build 3.0

thief build d/d dagger guide

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#1 koroshi

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 03:11 PM

Thief build 3.0:

I recently changed up my build which is now based on Health regen/ being able to take hits (toughness)/ Initiative regen/ stealth.

I'll list a  summary of what the power is of my build:

CND = cloak and dagger the fifth skill of dagger/dagger build.

Health regen ( when you are in stealth you receive around 300 health a second, so the longer you are in stealth the better your survivability) Good example of long stealthing in my video catch me if you can.

Initiative regen: Every stealth gives you 2 initiative, making cnd a worthwhile skill to spam aslong as you stay in stealth for the full duration so you can regen the rest of the cost, this allows you to keep using cnd constantly which allows you to be in stealth for aslong as you want.   (If you have a hard time timing it look at the icon of the stealth once it starts flashing very fast you can start casting your cnd)

Stealth: The most important part of the stealth build is knowing to time your cnd (This must be practised!), when you use an ability that stealths you and you attack while being in stealth it gives you a stealth debuff.. this stops you from restealthing again for 3 seconds, so we want to avoid this by not attacking while we are in stealth. How can you stay in stealth then? You time your cnd right when the stealth finishes, enemy players can't see where you are or see you for less than half a second this keeps the pressure on the enemy they have to keep guessing where you are and you can keep regenerating your health while dealing damage with cnd.  (If you have a hard time timing it look at the icon of the stealth once it starts flashing very fast you can start casting your cnd) Also very important to attack from the side/back for bonus damage. When your target is low enough you could finish him off with the backstab ( first skill of d/d) this does massive damage from the back I saw mine go upto 12.000 damage on my build.

Targetting: Always go for the weaker targets first this will make your job much easier when fighting a group alone, going for the upleveled players ( you can see this by the green arrow next to their name ) first. Upleveled players have horrible stats which allows you to do massive damage on them after you finished them of you want to go for thieves, if there are no thieves continue on going on light armor/medium armor players unless you are certain that the heavy armor is a berserker build ( you can find this out by testing your cnd damage on him when it is 4k+ it is ussually a berkerkerbuild ). I would avoid going after bunker build elementalists ussually they have two daggers in their hand, just check your damage with cnd on them if its below 3k ignore them while you take care of the rest.

Always keep remembering don't be to arrogant ( i still make that mistake quite a lot ). Keep your enemies guessing where you are and take them out one by one.


Downing players (If you use my new build, you can use blinding powder instead of signet of shadows, however this does interupt your downing)

If you have checked through my skills you will see that I use Signet of shadows for the aoe blind this is my favorite skill when downing players, because it allows me to cast signet of shadows while I am downing a player, it does not interupt your finisher. Best is to learn all the classes downed skills so you know what to do when they are downed. I'll give you a brief list with their important downed skills.

Guardian
Has a knockback that he can cast instantly pushing everyone away that is around him, it is instant cast so it is hard to predict. When I down a guardian I use signet of shadows straight away this blinds the guardian and makes his knockback miss.

Mesmer
Their most important downed skill is the one that allows them to briefly stealth and put a decoy down, but they need a target! so if you are in stealth they can not cast it on you which stops them from stealthing. I do not think Signet of shadows works on them.. atleast it hasn't worked for me. So what I do is I cnd them before i finish them off. If he does get to cast the skill always remember the first mesmer that shows up is the clone, so look around for the second one.

Engineer
His downed skill is a pull which also interupts your finisher you can avoid it by cnd'ing and standing in his back when finishing him off, if you don't think you can stealth cast your signet.

Thief
Can teleport away immeadly and right after stealth for a few seconds. I don't finish of thieves I just auto attack them or do heavy backstabs after the teleport go to his new location and keep hitting him there even if he stealths you will still hit him!.

Necromancer
Has a fear when he is downed which also interupts your finisher you can avoid it by cnd'ing and standing in his back when finishing him off, if you don't think you can stealth cast your signet.

Elementalist
Can turn in the mist right away which allows him to walk for few seconds while being invulnerable, so i suggest just auto attacking/backstabbing him until he mists then follow him to his new location and finish him off.

Warrior
Throws a hammer to knock you down, however this one is very slow so you can see him lift up his arm and aim before he throws it (this takes about 1-2 seconds) So when you see this motion use signet.

Ranger
Aoe interupt, signet immeadly! The ranger skill has no cast time even in stealth it will interupt you.


Food:

I use lower level food, since I do not feel I earn in enough in wvw alone to afford the expensive level 80 food. It is almost as effective if you are rich go for the level 80 version.

Normal use: Hardened Sharpening stones + Bowls of Butternut squash soup

When survivability is needed: Hardened Sharpening stones + Bowls of orrian Truffle and Meat Stew

Watch me in action:

Twitch

1 vs 1 Warrior

Problems with a PvE commander?

Duels thief vs thief

Catch me if you can

Solo WvW part 2 (old build)

Solo WvW part 1 (old build)


Traits:
Link

Posted Image


Armor + Weapons:
Link

Posted Image

Jewelry:
Link
Posted Image


Stats:
Link

Posted Image

Edited by koroshi, 20 April 2013 - 05:37 PM.


#2 Vysander

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 06:35 PM

I can attest that this build works great.

I run... well almost identical, except i have my points distrubeted differently in armor/jewelry, but to a very similar effect. I sit about 52% crit chance with 101% dmg. And ~2,850 Attack. I end up a little squishier, but end up with a tad more HP.

Doing what you're doing, with not always backstabbing, you might really enjoy using S/D. I've been playing with that alot lately in this trait setup and it works great.

All in all a very well written guide, with good tips and info.

Edited by Vysander, 22 February 2013 - 06:36 PM.


#3 koroshi

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 05:10 AM

Thank you for the kind words mate. I haven't looked into the sword/dagger combo all I know is the annoying daze haha. I will have to test it out some day, but don't you feel like you lack damage as sword/dagger compared to d/d? The backstab does come in handy when i need to finish someone off fast.

#4 The Shadow

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 05:34 AM

Takes a bit of getting used to, but works like a charm :)

#5 crowsnest bomber

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 10:33 AM

Excellent build for wvw..
Extra toughness means more aggro in pve so I tend to go for hp instead
For spvp, this is similar to using valk amulet, which works really well with the 100% crit trait

On a side note, Check out the sd loyalty thread, we all use a similar build to this and it's much more dynamic

#6 Korra

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 07:07 PM

I've been running a build like this for some months now in WvW, not with that gear tho, and 10 points in Deadly for mug. Imo the funniest usage of this build is killing people with timed CnDs, they don't even see you yet they go down, it's hillarious.

#7 koroshi

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 08:00 PM

Updated the gear/stats/jewelry, finally finished farming for my backpiece/ 2 divinity runes.

View Postcrowsnest bomber, on 24 February 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

On a side note, Check out the sd loyalty thread, we all use a similar build to this and it's much more dynamic

Have been looking around on the thread sword/dagger does look very interesting, I still need to drag myself to get a sword so I can test it out to see if it is something for me.


View PostKorra, on 24 February 2013 - 07:07 PM, said:

I've been running a build like this for some months now in WvW, not with that gear tho, and 10 points in Deadly for mug. Imo the funniest usage of this build is killing people with timed CnDs, they don't even see you yet they go down, it's hillarious.

Got to love trolling the zergs with cnd, free and easy kill without being spotted aslong as you stay out of their aoe's. Yesterday i had a group of 15 trying to kill me while only using cnd.. I never could understand why a group that big in wvw would waste their time finding a single thief, it is a big loss in manpower for them.

#8 RandolfRa

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 12:07 PM

View Postkoroshi, on 24 February 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

Got to love trolling the zergs with cnd, free and easy kill without being spotted aslong as you stay out of their aoe's. Yesterday i had a group of 15 trying to kill me while only using cnd.. I never could understand why a group that big in wvw would waste their time finding a single thief, it is a big loss in manpower for them.
It's because you are a thief. Zergers hate them with passion. When I was in wvw as a level 25 thief, it wasn't uncommon to be chased by 10 or so across the whole damn map.

ps. Are people in tier1 really that bad? You attacked them with c&d, and they just went on with their business. As if they were bugged mobs or something.

Edited by RandolfRa, 25 February 2013 - 12:24 PM.


#9 MrForz

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 01:55 PM

View PostRandolfRa, on 25 February 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

It's because you are a thief.

It pretty much sums it up. It's not for nothing that the WvW grounds are full of them.

#10 Vysander

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 02:04 PM

View Postkoroshi, on 23 February 2013 - 05:10 AM, said:

Thank you for the kind words mate. I haven't looked into the sword/dagger combo all I know is the annoying daze haha. I will have to test it out some day, but don't you feel like you lack damage as sword/dagger compared to d/d? The backstab does come in handy when i need to finish someone off fast.

Well yea, you lack the burst dmg from using backstab, but the AA on S/ main hand does alot of dmg compared to AA Dagger main hand. With how it seems you are doing this build (Using CnD more then backstab, to basically perma invis and hit a few times when you come out of invis) the main hand sword would probably end up being better for you.

Plus, the bonuses of having sword outweigh the loss of dmg with dagger. Just the possibilities of infiltrators strike are amazing. With some experience, you will ever be caught using S/D. I tend to run as a distraction to buy time for guildies/setup flanks. With infiltrators strike, shadow step, and shadow refuge, you will never get caught

#11 BnJ

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 09:06 PM

View PostVysander, on 25 February 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

but the AA on S/ main hand does alot of dmg compared to AA Dagger main hand.

I don't think that's completely true.

The sword may do more damage per hit, but the dagger auto attack swing is faster.  Daggers only do single target damage however, while sword AA can hit multiple enemies.

I remember someone tested this here a long time ago and posted the results.

Edited by Shroomhead Fred, 25 February 2013 - 09:08 PM.


#12 koroshi

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 03:01 AM

View PostRandolfRa, on 25 February 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

ps. Are people in tier1 really that bad? You attacked them with c&d, and they just went on with their business. As if they were bugged mobs or something.

The players in "catch me if you can" were clueless. It wasn't meant as a serious pvp video. I was laughing while it was happening, that warrior... on the hill almost cried. Also at the end the necromancer runs to his friends that is watching anza and he just stands there derping while the necro goes down. I'd say about half of tier 1 is like that.

I duel a lot with elona, they have very good players and love dueling them. I am actually uploading some stream highlights soon which will show all the duels I have against each class. Vizunah however, just zergs I personally do not like pvping them. Sure there are exceptions but the majority is just a massive zerg.


View PostVysander, on 25 February 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

Well yea, you lack the burst dmg from using backstab, but the AA on S/ main hand does alot of dmg compared to AA Dagger main hand. With how it seems you are doing this build (Using CnD more then backstab, to basically perma invis and hit a few times when you come out of invis) the main hand sword would probably end up being better for you.

Plus, the bonuses of having sword outweigh the loss of dmg with dagger. Just the possibilities of infiltrators strike are amazing. With some experience, you will ever be caught using S/D. I tend to run as a distraction to buy time for guildies/setup flanks. With infiltrators strike, shadow step, and shadow refuge, you will never get caught

Going to try it out this morning. It will be fun learning a new way to play a thief^^ Appreciate the information.


Edit: Had an awesome time with the sword, I have been using it together with d/d it is a powerfull combination. The shadowstep of the sword that teleports you much further than the utility is a very good skill to keep the deception going. The damage is not that bad either especially in combination with d/d it seems to work perfectly, love the daze and root. Thank you for suggesting this weapon!

Edit 2:  Removed shortbow, added sword. Added food usage and changed the utility from signet to blinding powder.

Edited by koroshi, 28 February 2013 - 04:53 PM.


#13 Orbasm

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 01:03 AM

View PostShroomhead Fred, on 25 February 2013 - 09:06 PM, said:

I don't think that's completely true.

The sword may do more damage per hit, but the dagger auto attack swing is faster.  Daggers only do single target damage however, while sword AA can hit multiple enemies.

I remember someone tested this here a long time ago and posted the results.

Sword mainhand also comes with cripple and sword #2 is amazing. Immo + free shadowstep can be devastating in the right hands. The cleave seems better for most situations as well. The downside? You can't just spam heartseeker.

Edited by Orbasm, 04 March 2013 - 01:03 AM.


#14 Shadowresli

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 12:34 PM

Interesting Build, i'm eager to try it out.

But i'm missing the necessary equipment, which i will craft. question though on the runes of divinity, is this a must have, or are there alternatives? Cause these runes cost a ton of money

Also i like to run sometimes with the 5-men guild group, should i stay with s/d + d/d or switch to shortbow for this?

#15 Leafar

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 10:48 PM

You can't ever go wrong with divinity runes, but the same applies to scholar runes or eagle. However imo Precision for a backstab build is not so important if you go with the Hidden killer trait. Instead I'll go with toughness on trinkets (cavalier gear from karma)

Just my 2 cents

#16 Ozie

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 10:59 PM

I recommend trying out Signet of Mercy (? the one that heals every time you hit someone) if you insist on being D/D. You get very large heals from D/D 3 and that elite.

#17 koroshi

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 11:05 AM

View PostShadowresli, on 11 March 2013 - 12:34 PM, said:

Interesting Build, i'm eager to try it out.

But i'm missing the necessary equipment, which i will craft. question though on the runes of divinity, is this a must have, or are there alternatives? Cause these runes cost a ton of money

Also i like to run sometimes with the 5-men guild group, should i stay with s/d + d/d or switch to shortbow for this?

Cheapest runes to go for is ruby orbs -> rune of the wurm -> divinity runes. That would be my suggestion concering the runes on the armor. d/d + s/d still works great for five man parties, however it might be interesting to go for shortbow if your team uses a lot of blast finisher combo's for example water field + blast finisher for the aoe heal. Thieves cluster bomb is awesome for this.


View PostLeafar, on 11 March 2013 - 10:48 PM, said:

You can't ever go wrong with divinity runes, but the same applies to scholar runes or eagle. However imo Precision for a backstab build is not so important if you go with the Hidden killer trait. Instead I'll go with toughness on trinkets (cavalier gear from karma)

Just my 2 cents

I do like ~35-40% crit chance just for that increased damage on your normal hits. The sword aoe damage with the normal hits is perfect when multiple players are stacked on top of eachother.

#18 Leafar

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 10:13 PM

So sad that stealth will get nerfed in the March update.....no more maintaining C&D  stealth :(

Now Last Refuge will be an even greater curse on us.

#19 st_clouds

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 10:17 PM

What nerf are you talking about? The culling fix?

#20 koroshi

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 10:57 PM

View Postst_clouds, on 15 March 2013 - 10:17 PM, said:

What nerf are you talking about? The culling fix?

ANET plans to change stealth so that it applies the revealed buff, regardless if you hit something or not.


I probably will have to go for a hybrid build based on evasion and stealth. Very sad they did not go after mug... but gave into the whine of players that did not read up on thieves. I have had no problem beating thieves as other classes, it is  a l2p issue.

#21 Thorfinnr

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 03:26 PM

View Postkoroshi, on 15 March 2013 - 10:57 PM, said:

ANET plans to change stealth so that it applies the revealed buff, regardless if you hit something or not.


I probably will have to go for a hybrid build based on evasion and stealth. Very sad they did not go after mug... but gave into the whine of players that did not read up on thieves. I have had no problem beating thieves as other classes, it is  a l2p issue.

Have they expanded this any more? I'm not sure I get the 'how' of the reveal buff getting applied...anyone have an insight (or a link to a discussion) to explain how that mechanic would work post patch...sounds like it could very much change the way I play Thief in W v W.

#22 Vysander

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 04:10 PM

View PostThorfinnr, on 18 March 2013 - 03:26 PM, said:

Have they expanded this any more? I'm not sure I get the 'how' of the reveal buff getting applied...anyone have an insight (or a link to a discussion) to explain how that mechanic would work post patch...sounds like it could very much change the way I play Thief in W v W.

The revealed de-buff will apply whether your stealth wears off by time or by attacking. Really, this was largely done to nerf the chained zerg stealth mesmers were doing, the effects it will have on thieves will only be beneficial imho. All it changes is that you can no longer troll groups of people by going invis the moment you come out by chaining CnD. A skilled player will still be able to avoid dmg, do dmg, and go back to being invis (unless they increase the reveal debuff)

Basically this is a step towards making more builds viable. Instead of everyone running a 30 shadow trait build because its so good, more people will run acrobat/trickster and other combos of traits to achieve a similar level of elusiveness.

Edited by Vysander, 18 March 2013 - 04:14 PM.


#23 Thorfinnr

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 04:22 PM

View PostVysander, on 18 March 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

The revealed de-buff will apply whether your stealth wears off by time or by attacking. Really, this was largely done to nerf the chained zerg stealth mesmers were doing, the effects it will have on thieves will only be beneficial imho. All it changes is that you can no longer troll groups of people by going invis the moment you come out by chaining CnD. A skilled player will still be able to avoid dmg, do dmg, and go back to being invis (unless they increase the reveal debuff)

Basically this is a step towards making more builds viable. Instead of everyone running a 30 shadow trait build because its so good, more people will run acrobat/trickster and other combos of traits to achieve a similar level of elusiveness.

Thanks for the details...makes sense...I usually only use my Stealth to get my "fat out of the fire"...rest of the time its all shadow stepping and a CnD if I am in a big group of melee getting beaten up... :) so like you said, may not cause me too much trouble.

Edited by Thorfinnr, 18 March 2013 - 04:23 PM.


#24 koroshi

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 05:28 PM

View PostThorfinnr, on 18 March 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

Thanks for the details...makes sense...I usually only use my Stealth to get my "fat out of the fire"...rest of the time its all shadow stepping and a CnD if I am in a big group of melee getting beaten up... :) so like you said, may not cause me too much trouble.

Indeed, I am sorry if it sounded that it was going to ruin thief stealth. I have just changed a few traits around and have been playing around without the perma cnd stealth. It isn't that bad, but I started to focus more on my s/d and d/d as bonus weapon.  The constant shadow stepping keeps you out of harms way for the 3 seconds if needed.

PS: The bonus momvementspeed in stealth is a nice trait to make up for the loss of the stealth stacking.

#25 Leafar

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:44 AM

Well I just wonder how they will compensate with that nerf, because they also said they want the thief to be more slippery and not just have a SB as your secondary like most people do and they also mentioned how Mug doesn't synergize well with other traits so that might get changed as well.

#26 Vysander

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 01:12 PM

View PostLeafar, on 19 March 2013 - 12:44 AM, said:

Well I just wonder how they will compensate with that nerf, because they also said they want the thief to be more slippery and not just have a SB as your secondary like most people do and they also mentioned how Mug doesn't synergize well with other traits so that might get changed as well.

I am interested in how they think they can make the thief more slippery (bloody slippery as is). It would be nice if the pistol was in some way more mobile. If that was the case i would consider running P/P instead of shortbow in more instances, instead of just when i need to do good single target dmg from afar.

I don't understand how they say mug doesn't synergize... because there's nothing that directly plays off of mug? Either that, or they claim it doesn't synergize and get rid of it to make more builds viable (instead of everyone loving on CnD/backstab instagib build)

#27 Leafar

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 03:06 PM

View PostVysander, on 19 March 2013 - 01:12 PM, said:

I am interested in how they think they can make the thief more slippery (bloody slippery as is). It would be nice if the pistol was in some way more mobile. If that was the case i would consider running P/P instead of shortbow in more instances, instead of just when i need to do good single target dmg from afar.

I don't understand how they say mug doesn't synergize... because there's nothing that directly plays off of mug? Either that, or they claim it doesn't synergize and get rid of it to make more builds viable (instead of everyone loving on CnD/backstab instagib build)

Well there are plenty of ways to make more builds viable without nerfing something else. Each class has its own useless traits that nobody uses, if they start with them that will be enough to begin with.

#28 AsuraMump

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 03:23 PM

I'll try the build this evening, if it works pretty good I'll work to get the armor right. I hope this build will works! thanks for sharing :) or is the build nerfed ' cause i didn't quite understand if it's nerfed already or not :P

Edited by AsuraMump, 19 March 2013 - 03:43 PM.


#29 koroshi

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 04:32 PM

I have had the build updated

View PostAsuraMump, on 19 March 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

I'll try the build this evening, if it works pretty good I'll work to get the armor right. I hope this build will works! thanks for sharing :) or is the build nerfed ' cause i didn't quite understand if it's nerfed already or not :P

I have had a minor trait change in the build for the upcoming nerf, the build on its own will still work as intended. You just can't perma stealth with Cloak and dagger anymore.

#30 AsuraMump

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 04:59 PM

View Postkoroshi, on 19 March 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:

I have had the build updated

I have had a minor trait change in the build for the upcoming nerf, the build on its own will still work as intended. You just can't perma stealth with Cloak and dagger anymore.
Okay, I'll see later this evening :) I'm now watching all your vids on YT ;p




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