14 replies to this topic

[Raagar Deathclaw]

Hey everyone I just started a mesmer a couple days ago and am now lvl 20. One thing I've noticed is that my illusion nvr seem to hold aggro and i'm always running a circle around any mobs i'm fighting. Another thing slightly off topic is that even when using decoy i still retain aggro and somehow continue to be attacked even after moving away from melee fighters/ranged target area. Any info would be much appreciated thanks in advance.

[Chaos Archangel]

Welcome to the ever-so-confusing world of the Mesmer.

Aggro is determined by many factors, chief among them are:

• Character Proximity
  
• Who is doing damage and how much.

Since your clones do next to no damage, it is hard for them to hold Aggro without a fair amount of precision and the Sharper Images (Dueling 15 minor ) trait, even then they tend to get one-shotted in builds with low toughness. Try starting with a clone, then sending a phantasm to attack behind it. That should give you time to get a few attacks off.

Stealth breaks enemy aggro for as long as you remain invisible, but if there is no one else for the enemy to attack when you reappear, he'll come right back at you. If the enemy is shooting a barrage at you (ex: Hylek with blowgun) and you stealth in the middle of it, the rest of the attacks will continue to harm you.

.. Hope that helps a bit.

-Chaos

Edited by Chaos Archangel, 21 February 2013 - 07:59 PM.

[NibriCevon]

I either use terrain / positioning of my illusions or movement speed to get melee mobs to aggro to my illusions. If you set up at multiple illusions in a small area, or maybe a single illusion with terrain features blocking the path of the mob to you, the mob should beat on the illusion before continuing to you. Very high damage stationary Phantasms (Warlock, Warden, Duelist) can also divert aggro from you, but set up a Clone that's closer to the enemy first, as Chaos Archangel said, if you don't want the Phantasm to be killed before it finishes its attack.
The same thing happens if you decrease their movement speed (Cripple, Freezing) or increase your own movement speed (Swiftness). Again the illusions must be "easier" for the mob to reach than you.
I use Phantasmal Warden or Feedback to deal with ranged, otherwise I have to break line-of-sight (which keeps me from attacking) for the ranged mob to switch aggro.

[GuanglaiKangyi]

Illusions aren't an aggro-holding mechanic.  Would be nice if they were, but they don't.  I'm guessing the idea is that Anet wants to discourage turning mesmers into a clone factory that just outputs a constant stream of free tanks to completely neutralize threats from all non-AOE attacks while the rest of the party just afks through everything.

[Serris]

clones are mainly a resource for shattering in my opinion. sometimes they take a hit, but this is actually a bad thing since it makes your shatters less potent.

[Trei]

GuanglaiKangyi, on 23 February 2013 - 04:47 AM, said:

Illusions aren't an aggro-holding mechanic.  Would be nice if they were, but they don't.  I'm guessing the idea is that Anet wants to discourage turning mesmers into a clone factory that just outputs a constant stream of free tanks to completely neutralize threats from all non-AOE attacks while the rest of the party just afks through everything.

I can't quite agree, if that is true.

Illusions should at least have the capacity to distract mobs and encounter bosses. That's not clones tanking, that's just clones taking one for the team.
It would be mesmers' own unique way to be in a "tanky" role.

The direction Anet has always wanted to take was to meld the distinction between PvE and PvP mechanics, and it started with the decision to not have aggro control skills which obviously wouldn't work in PvP on players.
There is no reason for mesmer mechanics to run counter to that ideal.

I do not see how effective clones distraction can result in the rest of the team afking in safety.
They just simply need to be equally viable a target to a mob/boss as a player, no more.

For what's worth though, my experience with the profession from 1-30+ were quite the opposite from the OP. My clones often served as pretty effective distraction for me against pve mobs, depending on the situation.

Sometimes I would need to start circle strafing when the mob found me to be a bigger threat instead, but my clones were capable of peeling it off me consistently enough.

Edited by Trei, 23 February 2013 - 02:01 PM.

[Raagar Deathclaw]

Thanks for the feedback everyone, I am now lvl 29 and closing on 30 fast, after getting some more traits set up (currently 5 in Illusions and 9 in dueling) I am hardly ever the primary target for trash mobs. Only time I get attention is when in melee range using s/s and in that situation it doesn't really matter thanks to blurred frenzy and skill 4 which I can't remember atm. All in all very helpful info =)

[Swoopeh]

My illusions get aggro quite frequently actually, mobs seem to especially fall for the clones on dodge (traited). Distance seems to be the predominant factor - if you pump out a few illusions and make sure you're further away you should lose aggro. If you're meleeing it's a lot more difficult. Of course they don't last long so you end up getting aggro, however as long as you can keep at least 2 up and keep your distortion/blurred frenzy for when you are about to get hit you should be able to juggle threat and avoidance quite well.

[Culture Shock]

Chaos Archangel, on 21 February 2013 - 07:59 PM, said:

Welcome to the ever-so-confusing world of the Mesmer.

Aggro is determined by many factors, chief among them are:

• Character Proximity
  
• Who is doing damage and how much.

Since your clones do next to no damage, it is hard for them to hold Aggro without a fair amount of precision and the Sharper Images (Dueling 15 minor ) trait, even then they tend to get one-shotted in builds with low toughness. Try starting with a clone, then sending a phantasm to attack behind it. That should give you time to get a few attacks off.

Stealth breaks enemy aggro for as long as you remain invisible, but if there is no one else for the enemy to attack when you reappear, he'll come right back at you. If the enemy is shooting a barrage at you (ex: Hylek with blowgun) and you stealth in the middle of it, the rest of the attacks will continue to harm you.

.. Hope that helps a bit.

-Chaos

Great points, and I would like to add that in high lvl areas the enemies will almost always fire attacks at you just before you stealth, such as chill, or immobilization so that you won't be out of range when your stealth is up.  I would like to launch a petition about this because of the entirely weak lvl of stealth the "master of illusions" is capable of.  Given that the thief and ranger have these skills that give them up to 15 seconds of stealth.  It's really disheartening when a group runs off and leaves you in a tough area like in Arah where you will be the lowest armor class in the group.  They will skate on by with either higher armor class and "more speed buff length" while the Mesmer will always be targeted for chill, immobilization, and extermination.  

Somehow the "upper armor class" pugs on your team will toss you a stupid line such as "don't Mesmers have invisibility?".  We only have 5 seconds with the elite, and 3 with decoy, and provided the information above you can totally be targeted and stopped in your tracks "while running" because your stealth will last all of 2 seconds if you cloak before entering the mob aggro.  You "'will" decloak while still in range and be dragged down, unless your group has sense enough to run together in a group so that the heavier classes can help out if and "when" the caster gets tagged with the taser gun that those "illusionist, and dead eyes" in Arah have.

Bottom line, Mesmer stealth is only good for breaking aggro of 1 or 2 foes who are in pursuit and don't fire with deadly accuracy, and are far enough away that you don't "decloak" only to find your self yanked right back into combat.  It sucks, and I am a Mesmer main so I've done some amazing escapes, but I just feel that we have to work way too hard considering we are the so called "masters of illusion".

Edited by Culture Shock, 27 February 2013 - 01:47 AM.

[Black Autumn]

I have to admit that the ability of illusions to maintain any aggro seems directly proportional to how much help they're being.  If they're helping, they'll die before they can *really* help.  If they're just tickling the thing you're fighting or putting conditions on it, they'll be ignored.  Okay really it's just hard to predict when you can rely on them and when you can't.

That said, they have helped me take on packs of enemies that would have flattened my Warrior, and with me in almost pure power/precision/critdmg gear.  Sometimes I'm screaming and running around in circles trying desperately to just not die - but then I finish a fight and there are 7 bodies around me, and then I start giggling.

[Chaos Archangel]

Culture Shock, on 27 February 2013 - 01:45 AM, said:

Great points, and I would like to add that in high lvl areas the enemies will almost always fire attacks at you just before you stealth, such as chill, or immobilization so that you won't be out of range when your stealth is up.  I would like to launch a petition about this because of the entirely weak lvl of stealth the "master of illusions" is capable of.  Given that the thief and ranger have these skills that give them up to 15 seconds of stealth.  It's really disheartening when a group runs off and leaves you in a tough area like in Arah where you will be the lowest armor class in the group.  They will skate on by with either higher armor class and "more speed buff length" while the Mesmer will always be targeted for chill, immobilization, and extermination.  

Somehow the "upper armor class" pugs on your team will toss you a stupid line such as "don't Mesmers have invisibility?".  We only have 5 seconds with the elite, and 3 with decoy, and provided the information above you can totally be targeted and stopped in your tracks "while running" because your stealth will last all of 2 seconds if you cloak before entering the mob aggro.  You "'will" decloak while still in range and be dragged down, unless your group has sense enough to run together in a group so that the heavier classes can help out if and "when" the caster gets tagged with the taser gun that those "illusionist, and dead eyes" in Arah have.

Bottom line, Mesmer stealth is only good for breaking aggro of 1 or 2 foes who are in pursuit and don't fire with deadly accuracy, and are far enough away that you don't "decloak" only to find your self yanked right back into combat.  It sucks, and I am a Mesmer main so I've done some amazing escapes, but I just feel that we have to work way too hard considering we are the so called "masters of illusion".

While I'd love for longer lasting stealth, I could understand why we probably won't be getting any:

• People already cry "OVERPOWERED!" at the first sight of a Mesmer in sPvP. Stealth makes it very difficult to find the real mesmer among a sea of clones and flashy purple attacks. With torch, decoy, veil, and Mass Invis, Mesmer can be a targetting nightmare.
  
• Mesmer can do anything any other class can do, just not as good. The tradeoff is that we can mix and match abilities from other classes to devastating effect. Stealth, teleports, distortion, reflections, multiple dazes, and of course things like TIMEWARP already place us among the best classes. If our stealths lasted longer, Thieves would go out of business.

[Arewn]

Trei, on 23 February 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

I can't quite agree, if that is true.

Illusions should at least have the capacity to distract mobs and encounter bosses. That's not clones tanking, that's just clones taking one for the team.
It would be mesmers' own unique way to be in a "tanky" role.

The direction Anet has always wanted to take was to meld the distinction between PvE and PvP mechanics, and it started with the decision to not have aggro control skills which obviously wouldn't work in PvP on players.
There is no reason for mesmer mechanics to run counter to that ideal.

I do not see how effective clones distraction can result in the rest of the team afking in safety.
They just simply need to be equally viable a target to a mob/boss as a player, no more.

For what's worth though, my experience with the profession from 1-30+ were quite the opposite from the OP. My clones often served as pretty effective distraction for me against pve mobs, depending on the situation.

Sometimes I would need to start circle strafing when the mob found me to be a bigger threat instead, but my clones were capable of peeling it off me consistently enough.

I run my mesmer sword/sword 20/20/0/0/30 (might change to 0/20/20/0/30 for staff stuff) for huge clone generation, wearing Knight's gear for the high toughness (which, to my knowledge, clones inherit), and signet of illusions for extra clone health. My original intent was to have a "tank mesmer" such as what you described where the extra bodies soaked damage for the team, and then could be quickly shattered for damage and replaced.
It's not perfect, clones are way too AoE susceptible and don't hold agro very well, but it does work to some of it's intended effect. Plus it being a solid shatter build means damage isn't bad and you're fairly resilient.

[Culture Shock]

Black Autumn, on 04 March 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

I have to admit that the ability of illusions to maintain any aggro seems directly proportional to how much help they're being.  If they're helping, they'll die before they can *really* help.  If they're just tickling the thing you're fighting or putting conditions on it, they'll be ignored.  Okay really it's just hard to predict when you can rely on them and when you can't.

That said, they have helped me take on packs of enemies that would have flattened my Warrior, and with me in almost pure power/precision/critdmg gear.  Sometimes I'm screaming and running around in circles trying desperately to just not die - but then I finish a fight and there are 7 bodies around me, and then I start giggling.

I like to play Power/ Precision/ Toughness.  I don't have to run as much and I actually let Risen hit me sometimes because I can take a bit a damage without worries.  Oh and they still all die before it's over... lol   Shhhh keep it secret, we don't want people to keep saying we are OP.

[Black Autumn]

Culture Shock, on 05 March 2013 - 07:01 AM, said:

I like to play Power/ Precision/ Toughness.  I don't have to run as much and I actually let Risen hit me sometimes because I can take a bit a damage without worries.  

That's probably a really good idea.  Still sub-60 and all my gear only has 2 attributes on it, but I'm getting there.  =)

God I hate Risen.  The Thralls.  Even crippled they're faster than me.  So not cool.

[Osiris Neits]

Greatsword is a great ranged weapon.

I find that attacking with the iZerker at max range, then using Mirror Blade and iZerker on cd does a decent job of either keeping aggro off me, or crippling and slowing the mob down enough that kiting isn't as much of an issue. I make sure that the auto attack is off, as immediately hitting a mob myself pretty much guarantees I'll pull it off my illusions, I usually give at least a second or two for tougher mobs. If something gets back within melee range after an iWave, I switch to staff and drop Chaos Storm on myself and the mob. when that falls off, Chaos Armor, Most mobs are dead before it gets anywhere near this point.  If not, it's time to put my burrito down and play with both hands.

Obviously, this only applies to pve outside instances lol

My mesmer is just running unmodified whispers armor with gold zerker jewelry. When I checked her gear a second ago, I realized she has 6 empty upgrade slots =P. The only good piece of gear she has is Mark of the Tethyos Houses, which is Ascended with zerker stats (and also an empty upgrade slot ). I never shred unless doing so will kill my illusions target, since my build is designed to maximize the effectiveness of my illusions.