94 replies to this topic

[Omedon]

Title and official post pretty much say it all

https://forum-en.gui...rst#post1486566

Quote

Each guild mission type becomes available through an upgrade that is researched in the guild tech tree. The first one is Guild Bounties, which does require Art of War level 5

*erects anti-rage bunker*

Straight up, this pretty much bones my guild, and I'm sure I'm not alone.

Discuss.

Edited by Omedon, 22 February 2013 - 12:46 PM.

[FoxBat]

I'm not surprised if they chose this just because War is the most overlooked category.

[Lordkrall]

That thread on the official forums is quite entertaining.

People seems to think that these guild missions are aimed at small guilds with 10-20 member, while it have, at least in my eyes, been quite clear that they are focusing on larger guilds, and a large guild with 30-40 active members would have no problem, whatsoever, to get enough influence to upgrade AoW to level 5 if they haven't already.

[matsif]

my guild hardly WvWs at all and we have everything maxed with like 300k influence stored.  And we don't usually have more than 30 members on a night.  not that hard to get imo.

[Omedon]

Lordkrall, on 22 February 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

That thread on the official forums is quite entertaining.

People seems to think that these guild missions are aimed at small guilds with 10-20 member, while it have, at least in my eyes, been quite clear that they are focusing on larger guilds, and a large guild with 30-40 active members would have no problem, whatsoever, to get enough influence to upgrade AoW to level 5 if they haven't already.

That's a fair point.

It's certainly put my small guild into discussion mode as to whether or not to commit to the AoW path in order to enable content that, in all honesty, may not be intended for us to enable.  Participate in, sure, but not enable.

Related to that line of thought, though, this pretty much guns down the idea of multiple small guilds allying to get these done, taking turns helping each other out, considering they'd ALL need AoW5 to contribute equally to such a formal, long term arrangement.

Edited by Omedon, 22 February 2013 - 01:14 PM.

[Jetjordan]

if you are in multiple small guilds that you like, it's time to introduce everyone.  One of my buddies on the US server had success with combining his smaller guilds a while back

[chefwaffle]

Why add that content if not EVERYONE can do it!? Sometimes, I wonder what Anet's is smoking. This is a slapped to the face to the small guilds. > But judging from the negative responses from players, we can only hope that they'll change this....................................................... After 2 months.

[Lordkrall]

chefwaffle, on 22 February 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

Why add that content if not EVERYONE can do it!? Sometimes, I wonder what Anet's is smoking. This is a slapped to the face to the small guilds. > But judging from the negative responses from players, we can only hope that they'll change this....................................................... After 2 months.

Everyone CAN do it. Just not everyone that can START it.

[Ritualist]

While I like the fact that they are using a universally obtainable currency (that way players aren't forced into a specific playstyle to access this content) and while I don't like the fact that this content needs to be unlucked (this gates this content), nor do I like the numbers that seem to be involved (additionally gating the content) and I also have problems with influence (with influence being server-bound, this represents an additional nail in the coffin of cross-server guilds), I just don't care enough to oppose it.
I don't think it's not a good direction for the game and it seems like a waste of all that talent and resources that went into it, but ... meh.

It's very fitting of GW2.

Edited by Ritualist, 22 February 2013 - 01:50 PM.

[SunRoamer]

Big maybe: They might be restructuring the whole tiering system, lowering the cost for certain items and adding more tiers.

That's the only reason I could possibly imagine for them to be putting guild missions into AoW 5 8[

[Johny Bravo]

you need 16,500 influence to unlock art of war.  I started a guild last week to get a guild storage and get bonus flags only, With the help of a few friends I currently have architecture 1 & 2, economy 1&2 and some flags.  That over 4000 in one week.  It is not a stretch for them to make this a requirement as most guilds with active players who play together, what this is geared to, will either have this unlocked already or have enough influence in reserve to get it done   Based on what I read so far, and this is speculation, the idea is to get guilds to play together.  Since playing together gives larger influence rewards (2 people doing their daily events together will generate 100 influence for a guild) this should accomplish what they want.  

   As with anything in the game you will have the people who want access to all the content with minimal effort and will continue to complain that its to hard to get (pre-cursers, ascended items, legendaries, the list goes on).  These arguments aren't knew they are the same from GW1 and will continue to come up for any MMO.  

  I am in a larger guild as well as some small guilds so I will be both looking forward to the new guild mission as well as trying to help my smaller guilds to start banking influence.

Edited by Johny Bravo, 22 February 2013 - 02:13 PM.

[ivyblossom]

hmm luckly i am in an guild with 450+- members XD. we got at this moment 1mil influence. and about 500 +- gold. so these update's won't be an trouble for us.^^ ( we got evrything ax ofcourse^^ ) we were already saving up for the guild halls ( that are coming someday ) so^^

[Gli]

Johny Bravo, on 22 February 2013 - 02:12 PM, said:

you need 16,500 influence to unlock art of war.

According to the wiki, it's actually 36,500 to unlock level 5.

And as a general remark, influence can be bought with gold. 73 gold buys the 36,500 influence you need. Any guild with a few moderately wealthy players can get it in seconds.

Not sure whether it's worth it though, for these guild missions.

[Eon Lilu]

chefwaffle, on 22 February 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

Why add that content if not EVERYONE can do it!? Sometimes, I wonder what Anet's is smoking. This is a slapped to the face to the small guilds. > But judging from the negative responses from players, we can only hope that they'll change this....................................................... After 2 months.

Pretty much confirms this will be gated group content and small guilds will be excluded from it unless they piggy back on others (which will not get the guild the rewards) or use gold to buy the influence needed.

So basically Anet are trying to put raids into guild wars 2....

Ascended items and now raids....when previously they said they would not have power creep and they would not have content that required more than 5 players in the future....well that was utter bullshit. lol

They really are making GW2 into WoW 2...the difference being these will be open world raids by the sounds of it instead of instanced.

This will also harm smaller guilds now in favour of the larger guilds....

I don't know what Anet are smoking to think this is a good idea for the game but it's obvious now the direction they are taking it, ignoring so many things that are needed and wasting resources on things like this...but then locking it out from a large chunk of the community?

Only large guilds will get the new guild rewards basically.

This is what I was worried about, everytime Anet comes up with something, it sounds and looks awesome on paper and in words but as usual the implementation used to give it to us in the game is so backwards and badly implemented it ends up being a terrible idea.

Edited by Eon Lilu, 22 February 2013 - 02:52 PM.

[Johny Bravo]

Gli, on 22 February 2013 - 02:37 PM, said:

According to the wiki, it's actually 36,500 to unlock level 5.

And as a general remark, influence can be bought with gold. 73 gold buys the 36,500 influence you need. Any guild with a few moderately wealthy players can get it in seconds.

Yes you are correct I forgot there was a art of war lvl 5.  I still stand by my comments as these Guild Missions are geared to get people playing together and that in itself generates more influence (100 for a full guild dungeon run, 20 for 2+ people doing the same event(

As for the part about the gold I didn't want to mention it as smaller guilds usually are compromised of casual players that are not likely to have 73g to just dump into guild upgrades.


Also I would like to add that I am also in a smaller guild 10-15 active players and we have everything unlocked except the architecture stuff (no one needed the guild vaults).  It is by no means unreasonable to bring this into play at this point and expect established guilds to be able to participate.  Now there is at least something to spend all your saved up influence on

Edited by Johny Bravo, 22 February 2013 - 02:50 PM.

[Lordkrall]

Nothing is actually stopping small guilds from unlocking these missions, it will just take more time. You make is sound as if you CAN'T unlock them at all unless your guild count is over a specific number.

I am completely alone in my guild, and have been since release, yet I have manage to upgrade all different categories to at least rank 2. Including several other upgrades on each category.

That is from someone that have had ONE player in their guild for the whole life-span of the guild.
Sure it would take me ages to get these missions unlocked, but it is in no way impossible.

[Omedon]

Lordkrall, on 22 February 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

Nothing is actually stopping small guilds from unlocking these missions, it will just take more time. You make is sound as if you CAN'T unlock them at all unless your guild count is over a specific number.

I am completely alone in my guild, and have been since release, yet I have manage to upgrade all different categories to at least rank 2. Including several other upgrades on each category.

That is from someone that have had ONE player in their guild for the whole life-span of the guild.
Sure it would take me ages to get these missions unlocked, but it is in no way impossible.

A small guild that crawls their way to unlocking a content type "not meant" for them is wasting communally earned, dearly attained resources, and so while "can't" is too strong a word in the literal sense, it's definitely a consideration for small guilds not rolling in money not to waste the resources.

That's a pretty solid gate.

This would all be easier to swallow if things like cheaper waypoints weren't on the table here.  The concept of my  small guild (and I'm guessing others) has always been welcoming, and grateful that GW2 let us play our comfy, family style and not suffer for it.

This implementation jostles against that.  Certainly doesn't sink it, but jostles it.

Edited by Omedon, 22 February 2013 - 02:56 PM.

[The_Blades]

Lordkrall, on 22 February 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

Nothing is actually stopping small guilds from unlocking these missions, it will just take more time. You make is sound as if you CAN'T unlock them at all unless your guild count is over a specific number.

I am completely alone in my guild, and have been since release, yet I have manage to upgrade all different categories to at least rank 2. Including several other upgrades on each category.

That is from someone that have had ONE player in their guild for the whole life-span of the guild.
Sure it would take me ages to get these missions unlocked, but it is in no way impossible.

Why would you even comment in this thread when you obviously dont have a guild?

people in small guilds that actually like to play with each other should not have an obstacle like this to surpass.

I have a small guild, with 4 other RL friends, and i'm also part of a big guild. what if i want to do the content with my small guild? my only hope is that the combining of guild efforts can be done in such a way that it doesnt require for every guild to have the upgrades maxed.

[Coren]

Actually, my guild of 5 has full upgrades, and we come on every other day, so it's doable, but I do understand the issue. Seems to me tier 5 is really high.

[Lordkrall]

The_Blades, on 22 February 2013 - 02:54 PM, said:

Why would you even comment in this thread when you obviously dont have a guild?

people in small guilds that actually like to play with each other should not have an obstacle like this to surpass.

I have a small guild, with 4 other RL friends, and i'm also part of a big guild. what if i want to do the content with my small guild? my only hope is that the combining of guild efforts can be done in such a way that it doesnt require for every guild to have the upgrades maxed.

Ah, but I have a guild. A 1-man guild. And yet you don't see me complain about being unable to do this with my current guild.

People in small guilds are not the target for this kind of content, it is aimed for big guilds (at least to kick it off, after all everyone can join the missions after they are started).

You are assuming this release is aimed at small groups, that is quite clearly not the case. These are aimed at all those that have shouted about lack of big-group content in the game.

[The_Blades]

Have you

Lordkrall, on 22 February 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

Ah, but I have a guild. A 1-man guild. And yet you don't see me complain about being unable to do this with my current guild.

People in small guilds are not the target for this kind of content, it is aimed for big guilds (at least to kick it off, after all everyone can join the missions after they are started).

You are assuming this release is aimed at small groups, that is quite clearly not the case. These are aimed at all those that have shouted about lack of big-group content in the game.

Thats not a guild, that's extra storage space.

Quote

Our hope would be that will dynamically come out of this emergent game-play. Like the bounties have different tiers so there's a small tier that small guilds can do, so where it's say, three bosses in three zones. Ten or fifteen people can do that as a small guild. You can pick which tier you want to kick off on based on how many people you have online. But maybe one of the things that will come out of that is, "well, our guild's going to do a tier 3 bounty and it takes a lot more people to do, so let's get three guilds together and our guild will kick one off and you help us do ours and then we'll help you do yours," so each of the three guilds all work together to accomplish it. I think that kind of emergent game-play will hopefully come out of that, for sure. We don't really know what to expect just because it's so hard to test internally to see what guilds are going to do when this goes live. So some of this is - we're going to put it out and we're just going to see how guilds interact with it and what they do. That'll help us determine what other features and additions [...]

So tiers, small guilds? theres some contradiction in the interview since the first question he seems to hint that this content is for big guilds, then there's this. so, if there are tiers for smaller guilds why are they starting at AoW lvl5?

Makes no sense! they either come out and say "Big guilds only" or they make the content easier to unlock for smaller guilds, which have people in them that also payed for the game.

[Omedon]

The_Blades, on 22 February 2013 - 03:12 PM, said:

  which have people in them that also payed for the game.

Oh for the love of...

Those people have more than received their money's worth since GW2 launched, if they have any sense of perspective.

Look, my guild isn't going to get to enable this content most likely, but LordKrall has the right of it: this is focused content for a specific play style.  Just like fractals, just like WvW.  I don't entirely like the subtext of this implementation either ("go big or go home"), but let's not play the "I bought the box and everything in it" card.  GW2 is an incredible value for the cost, let's be real.

Edited by Omedon, 22 February 2013 - 03:24 PM.

[Lordkrall]

The_Blades, on 22 February 2013 - 03:12 PM, said:

So tiers, small guilds? theres some contradiction in the interview since the first question he seems to hint that this content is for big guilds, then there's this. so, if there are tiers for smaller guilds why are they starting at AoW lvl5?

Makes no sense! they either come out and say "Big guilds only" or they make the content easier to unlock for smaller guilds, which have people in them that also payed for the game.

But with those 10-15 players online you can very easily get the influence needed to unlock them. So what is the problem?

With 10-15 players online daily it would not take long to get all influence needed to go from rank 0 AoW to rank 5. within a month of active play it should be rather easily achievable.
It simply looks like a matter of different ways of thinking. I would say a guild with 10-15 players online at all times would not be seen as a small guild, whilst ArenaNet does seems to think that (if the quote is from ArenaNet that is).

This is quite clearly just a situation like all those others where people want everything available to them at once without having to actually work for or earn it.

[Tyrantscreed]

Games been out for almost 6 months now - any guild that was been founded since game launch should have everything unlocked by now :\

Might be difficult for newer guilds or small 5-10 man guilds but w/e you can still buy influence if you are in such a hurry.

EDIT:

This might vary depending on how you play, but if your guild hasn't unlocked the guild stuff, try joining a new guild for a change? I think this update allows established guilds to advertise themselves and is also a good opportunity for recruitment purposes.

If you, however, like small-knit group of 5-10 people, then...grind through the influence For me, more people the merrier, the more discussions going on in guild chat, the more events are running, the more people I can joke / have a conversation with - but like I said, it depends on your play style and how much you are socially engaged (or would like to be) with your guild.

Edited by Tyrantscreed, 22 February 2013 - 03:33 PM.

[The_Blades]

Omedon, on 22 February 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

Oh for the love of...

Those people have more than received their money's worth since GW2 launched, if they have any sense of perspective.

Look, my guild isn't going to get to enable this content most likely, but LordKrall has the right of it: this is focused content for a specific play style.  Just like fractals, just like WvW.  I don't entirely like the subtext of this implementation either ("go big or go home"), but let's not play the "I bought the box and everything in it" card.  GW2 is an incredible value for the cost, let's be real.

Same goes for value for the cost argument. Its a damn MMO, i expect it to last longer than a Single player game. It would be incredible value if it was a single palyer offline game, but its not. so yes, i bought the box and all in it. And im not complaining for stuff im not getting (legendarys for instance) but new content, gameplay, should not be "given" to players this way.

Im not saying i want to have the content laid out at my feet the moment it comes out. im asking for a reasonable tier system, not a lvl 5 AoW for the first thing to be unlocked, theres 4 tiers before that, why not put it at tier 3 for the first mission(s) and then gradually setting the locks for harder and more rewarding stuff.

Its a matter of being reasonable not of being entitled. I wouldnt have any problem if the harder content was only available by paying 100k influence, as long as there was stuff to do inbetween, going right of to an extreme is not reasonable.

[Lordkrall]

So, lets break it up shall we?

Lets see all things that are possible to do solo or as a small guild in this game: All DEs, all dungeons, the Fractals, WvW, sPvP, Personal Story.

Lets see what is possible for a large group/guild: DEs (in some cases, they do scale rather badly with too much people), WvW.

As of now it about 100% of the games content available to small guilds or solo players, while the ability for a big guild to do something together is rather minimal.
With the addition of these new things there will finally be something that focus on that very group of players, while not hurting the first group.

[The_Blades]

Lordkrall im not against the system.  I agree that the large scale content is needed.

But if somethign is called a guild mission, this should not be that content. Call it a raid or something and make it so is not guild-upgrades dependent.

[Lordkrall]

The_Blades, on 22 February 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

Lordkrall im not against the system.  I agree that the large scale content is needed.

But if somethign is called a guild mission, this should not be that content. Call it a raid or something and make it so is not guild-upgrades dependent.

But it isn't a raid. It is content, kicked off by guild, but join-able for everyone. Keep in mind that bounty is just one of 5 different missions coming with this update, others include Rush (which looks like taking the form of an animal or something and running around), Puzzle, Trek (exploration) and Challenge.

Calling the whole system Raid would be rather silly, seeing as it is clearly not only combat oriented.

[Omedon]

The_Blades, on 22 February 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

Lordkrall im not against the system.  I agree that the large scale content is needed.

But if somethign is called a guild mission, this should not be that content. Call it a raid or something and make it so is not guild-upgrades dependent.

As minor and "not really a big deal" as this point is, I can agree with the thought behind it.

It's semantics, so, again, just as a discussion point, not a passionately huge to-do, it is a somewhat mild (and I use this term as lightly as possible) "betrayal" of the idea of guilds in GW2.  The idea *I* got was it was a great, viable, and supported idea to form a guild for every interest, from the Sunday night dungeon run to the Wednesday night "Asura knitting circle" RP troupe.  In the same vein, the tight circle of friends was just as viable and "complete."

And now, all of those small interest groups are "wrong" as guilds.  A "guild" does "guild missions," in this implementation's subtext.  I dislike that subtext.

Again, incredibly minor and semantic point, but not entirely invalid either.

[Kymeric]

So what I'm getting from the thread is that ANet is not allowed to release content aimed at large guilds without also offering a scaled down version for small guilds.