41 replies to this topic

[Dahk]

So, I wanted to open up a question to the community:

If you're building a group for a dungeon, which classes do you think should run a condition damage build?

[GuanglaiKangyi]

Condition damage DPS ranking:

Top: Engineer
High: Elementalist
Mid: Necromancer, ranger, thief
Low: Mesmer, warrior
Bottom: Guardian

[matsif]

GuanglaiKangyi, on 24 February 2013 - 10:31 PM, said:

Condition damage DPS ranking:

Top: Engineer
High: Elementalist, Necromancer
Mid: ranger, thief
Low: Mesmer, warrior
Bottom: Guardian

essentially what guanglai said but with that one edit.  Necro is definitely better than ranger and thief in my eyes, but an ele can outperform it.  Engy wins because not only do you get the bleeds, you also easily get 20+stacks of vulnerability, increasing the rest of your party's dps by 20-25%.  No other condition class can do that with just one skill (grenades).

[Asha2012]

So to sort of piggyback off of this question; what would a mesmer's No.1 "job function" be considered?  I play one.  I do a mix of confusion and vulnerability stacking as well as a few buffs (time warp comes to mind).

[GuanglaiKangyi]

Asha2012, on 25 February 2013 - 12:06 AM, said:

So to sort of piggyback off of this question; what would a mesmer's No.1 "job function" be considered?  I play one.  I do a mix of confusion and vulnerability stacking as well as a few buffs (time warp comes to mind).

Portals and timewarp.

Seriously.

[Xsiriss]

Note a condition build doesn't necessarily mean you have to spec beyond duration. 30 into the primary condition duration attribute with 2 Lyssa runes and Giver's weapon will give 50% duration boost, good for damage dealing and support conditions without  sacrificing too much equipment wise. This holds true for most classes in PvE/Dungeons I've found (Mesmer is the only one I don't have at 80 yet so not sure there), condition damage is more important for PvP.

[GuanglaiKangyi]

matsif, on 24 February 2013 - 11:47 PM, said:

essentially what guanglai said but with that one edit.  Necro is definitely better than ranger and thief in my eyes, but an ele can outperform it.  Engy wins because not only do you get the bleeds, you also easily get 20+stacks of vulnerability, increasing the rest of your party's dps by 20-25%.  No other condition class can do that with just one skill (grenades).

In my experience necromancer doesn't actually stack that much bleed, which is where most condition damage comes from.  They can get a decent amount via traits but they don't have anything that gives a really massive amount of bleed, like how Engineers have Shrapnel (both the skill and the trait) and elementalists have Eruption.  All they have is scepter auto, mark, and BiP, none of which really stack that much bleed.  IIRC necromancers only stack about 15 bleeds on average.  I'll have to go look for that thread where I broke it down.

EdIt: Here we go:

Quote

Assuming +90% bleed duration (+30% from prowess, +20% from hemophila, +40% from runes) plus another 33% for scepter skills:
Scepter Auto = 1x11, 1x8 per 3s = 6.33 ticks/sec
Grasping Dead = 1x15 per 11s = 1.36 ticks/sec
Enfeebling Blood = 2x19 per 22s = 1.73 ticks/sec
Blood is Power = 2x57 per 31s = 3.68

Then assuming 300 precision from traits and Rabid gear, you'll have 55% crit rate.  Assuming 1 attack per second:
Barbed Precision = 36% chance to bleed for 1s = .36 ticks/sec
2x Sigil of Earth = .462 chance to bleed for 9s = 4.4 ticks/sec

Total = 17.86 ticks/sec

That's not really that much higher than what a thief or ranger can output.  Thief should be able to get 14-15 bleed stacks average and ranger should have around 13-14 stacks, but that's a rough estimate.  I'd have to actually crunch the numbers to get a definite range.  Either way they might be on the high end of mid tier but I wouldn't put them on the same level as elementalists, and certainly not anywhere near engineer.

Edited by GuanglaiKangyi, 25 February 2013 - 02:35 AM.

[matsif]

GuanglaiKangyi, on 25 February 2013 - 02:22 AM, said:

In my experience necromancer doesn't actually stack that much bleed, which is where most condition damage comes from.  They can get a decent amount via traits but they don't have anything that gives a really massive amount of bleed, like how Engineers have Shrapnel (both the skill and the trait) and elementalists have Eruption.  All they have is scepter auto, mark, and BiP, none of which really stack that much bleed.  IIRC necromancers only stack about 15 bleeds on average.  I'll have to go look for that thread where I broke it down.

That's not really that much higher than what a thief or ranger can output.  Thief should be able to get 14-15 bleed stacks average and ranger should have around 13-14 stacks, but that's a rough estimate.  I'd have to actually crunch the numbers to get a definite range.  Either way they might be on the high end of mid tier but I wouldn't put them on the same level as elementalists, and certainly not anywhere near engineer.

it normally averages around 15 or so in my experience as well, and I give a slight boost for epidemic being able to spread it around (although useless for bosses).  And from necro's survivability alone I have to rank it higher than thief, and overall I think it does better than a shortbow and axe/x ranger from playing both a bunch in many dungeons.

still not as good as eles or anywhere close to engy, and maybe "high" is overshooting, but I don't want to put it in mid cause imo it is much better than thief and ranger at condition damage.

Asha2012, on 25 February 2013 - 12:06 AM, said:

So to sort of piggyback off of this question; what would a mesmer's No.1 "job function" be considered?  I play one.  I do a mix of confusion and vulnerability stacking as well as a few buffs (time warp comes to mind).

confusion isn't really all that great in PvE cause for the most part stuff attacks slow.  Vulnerability is never a problem with an engy or 2 warriors in the party who run either GS or axe/mace or anything but use on my mark.  Mesmer's real function in a party is just time warp.  DPS isn't bad, but time warp and portal (to a lesser extent, although it makes skipping some stuff a lot easier), and possibly feedback in some situations, really are why mesmers are great.

[dawdler]

How come the Warrior would be ranked so low, considering a sword/sword condition warrior can stack up 20+ bleeds faster than any other class? But granted, few - if any - actually play a condition Warrior.

A Guardian fire based build can be pretty nasty as well, but true enough I would rank them low.

[Coren]

dawdler, on 25 February 2013 - 06:04 AM, said:

How come the Warrior would be ranked so low, considering a sword/sword condition warrior can stack up 20+ bleeds faster than any other class? But granted, few - if any - actually play a condition Warrior.

A Guardian fire based build can be pretty nasty as well, but true enough I would rank them low.

That's right, but that's all a warrior does, bleed. No burning (longbow burst notwithstanding) no poison, no confusion. It can stack bleed relatively well, but it's beaten easily by engineers, thieves and necros IMO.

[Dahk]

So, there's a lot of talk about who applies the most conditions, but what about combo fields?

[matsif]

dawdler, on 25 February 2013 - 06:04 AM, said:

How come the Warrior would be ranked so low, considering a sword/sword condition warrior can stack up 20+ bleeds faster than any other class? But granted, few - if any - actually play a condition Warrior.

A Guardian fire based build can be pretty nasty as well, but true enough I would rank them low.

having played around with it, I get more stacks of bleed faster with my engineer than warrior, not to mention I also get poison, freeze, and 20+ stacks of vuln from my engy, while all I get is bleeds and a little bit of cripple from warrior.  Flurry's bleeds don't last long enough compared to others, auto attack chain does no better than necro's scepter chain (and lacks the poison), riposte might not get blocked which cuts out 4 bleeds right there, and for the most part it's single target application of bleeds.  With engineer I can apply 4 bleeds per throw just from my regular attack with sigil of earth, 3 of which are aoe, and follow up with shrapnel grenade for another 3 bleeds.  thief gets cluster bomb for aoe bleeds, necro gets epidemic plus grasping dead/enfeebling blood/mark of blood, ranger auto attack pierces when traited (which it should be) plus traps, ele has eruption, etc.  Warrior might be able to be decent at it on a single target, but it is in no way close to as good as the rest in a mob situation, and stacking 20 bleeds really fast isn't good unless you can sustain 20 bleeds for the duration of the fight.  I can do that with engineer and ele, and get 15-16 sustained with necro, all with better utility/support/control which sword/sword warrior provides none of other than a cripple every 15 seconds.

besides building a warrior for conditions is silly when building for straight damage is superior for that class.

Dahk, on 25 February 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

So, there's a lot of talk about who applies the most conditions, but what about combo fields?

I'll have to put some more thought into this one later when I have some more time, but I'm gonna go ahead and say engineer, elementalist, and trap ranger from the top of my head.

[Coren]

Dahk, on 25 February 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

So, there's a lot of talk about who applies the most conditions, but what about combo fields?

Hands down, engineer, followed closely by elementalist.

[GuanglaiKangyi]

Dahk, on 25 February 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

So, there's a lot of talk about who applies the most conditions, but what about combo fields?

The only combo field that stacks anything that can't be already be stacked with 100% uptime are ethereal and lightning, and smoke to a lesser extent.  Even a big stack of confusion doesn't add up to that much in the long run and the other two don't deal condition damage.

[kendro1200]

matsif, on 24 February 2013 - 11:47 PM, said:

essentially what guanglai said but with that one edit.  Necro is definitely better than ranger and thief in my eyes, but an ele can outperform it.  Engy wins because not only do you get the bleeds, you also easily get 20+stacks of vulnerability, increasing the rest of your party's dps by 20-25%.  No other condition class can do that with just one skill (grenades).

I'd put necro higher than ele, simply because of epidemic.

A condition necro can burst 25 stacks of vuln for 10 seconds or so, but can't maintain it.

[Skrobble]

If this is talk of conditions and not just bleeds, you'll have to rank the Necro higher.

S/D and Staff provides a huge bleed stack, vulnerability, chill, and the positbility of poison and blind. Coupled with Epidemic you've got a maintainable stack of multiple conditions.

[Thaddeuz]

Skrobble, on 25 February 2013 - 03:37 PM, said:

If this is talk of conditions and not just bleeds, you'll have to rank the Necro higher.

S/D and Staff provides a huge bleed stack, vulnerability, chill, and the positbility of poison and blind. Coupled with Epidemic you've got a maintainable stack of multiple conditions.

Ya, but not all condition are equal. Bleeding, Burning and Poison are dmg dealer and are always welcome. Confusion deal dmg but this is really a PvP condition, don't deal real dmg in PvE. Chilled, Crippled, Immobilized, Blind, Fear and Weakness help you and your team, but still their effect are way more oriented to PvP. Its a nice bonus in PvE, but its situationnal and you can't really rely on that to survive, making them as I said, bonus. For a profession to be good to deal conditions in PvE, only Bleeding, Burning, Poison and Vulnerability really count in a PvE context.

[Skrobble]

Thaddeuz, on 25 February 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

Ya, but not all condition are equal. Bleeding, Burning and Poison are dmg dealer and are always welcome. Confusion deal dmg but this is really a PvP condition, don't deal real dmg in PvE. Chilled, Crippled, Immobilized, Blind, Fear and Weakness help you and your team, but still their effect are way more oriented to PvP. Its a nice bonus in PvE, but its situationnal and you can't really rely on that to survive, making them as I said, bonus. For a profession to be good to deal conditions in PvE, only Bleeding, Burning, Poison and Vulnerability really count in a PvE context.

Which further backs up my point, you can't look beyond a Necro's ability to push out high bleed stacks coupled with vulnerability and a poison field that has a short C/D.

[Coren]

Skrobble, on 25 February 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

Which further backs up my point, you can't look beyond a Necro's ability to push out high bleed stacks coupled with vulnerability and a poison field that has a short C/D.

Would be interesting to compare engineers to necros on full condition spec. Engineers have every single condition except fear. They stack bleeding, poison and vulnerability really easily, and burning too to a lesser extent.

[Skrobble]

Coren, on 25 February 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

Would be interesting to compare engineers to necros on full condition spec. Engineers have every single condition except fear. They stack bleeding, poison and vulnerability really easily, and burning too to a lesser extent.

I don't know much about Engies, what's the staple condition stacking build?

[I'm Squirrel]

Asha2012, on 25 February 2013 - 12:06 AM, said:

So to sort of piggyback off of this question; what would a mesmer's No.1 "job function" be considered?  I play one.  I do a mix of confusion and vulnerability stacking as well as a few buffs (time warp comes to mind).

GuanglaiKangyi, on 25 February 2013 - 12:44 AM, said:

Portals and timewarp.

Seriously.

^Don't listen to that bullshit. Seriously.

My main is a mesmer, using staff/greatsword(staff is much more important). When I play, I mainly focus on:
-keeping confusion on the enemy at all times
-keeping up max clones at all times (really helps; just as good as blind)
-making sure mind wrack and cry of confusion are used to full potential as soon as the recharge is over
-keeping allies alive
-Minor: keeping burning, bleeding, vulnerability on the enemy at all times

I would say their #1 job is spike damage(confusion/burning/bleed/vuln + mindwrack combo) and team survivability(keeping up clones at all times).

People who don't play mesmers or are inexperienced don't understand the mesmer's potential damage output.

Portals are barely important in dungeons. Timewarp is important, but the above^ ultimately does much more than timewarp could ever do, therefore, the above takes top priority.

Edited by I'm Squirrel, 25 February 2013 - 05:22 PM.

[Coren]

Skrobble, on 25 February 2013 - 05:15 PM, said:

I don't know much about Engies, what's the staple condition stacking build?

Traited grenades with bleeding on explosions and vulnerability on criticals AND vulnerability on explosions, and maybe throw a sigil of earth, you can stack 20 odd vulnerability without too much hassle and a constant stream of maybe 10-15 bleed. Put in poison from the grenades and the occasional flame burst, explosive shot, poison volley, static shot, you get around 15 vulnerability, 12 bleeds, poison for... 10 seconds? Burning for a few seconds and confusion fir 2-3 seconds.

[Nikephoros]

And then the next logical question is in what dungeon or fractal is a condition damage build an optimal choice?

[Kumori Tensei]

I hear no representatives from the ranger community lol. We got voided off that quick? sheesh.
What about trap rangers with axe/warhorn. Not only do they put out conditions in the form of bleeds/chills/poison/burning...but also those in combo fields. Also on top of that a party wide buff so frequently that gives swiftness/fury/and might. with the right pets also protection every 10 seconds, and aoe regen or chill or bleed or poison or any other condition you can imagine. Did i also mention a water field in the form of helaing spring that gives regen as well....oh man oh man. Rangers need some more loving hehe

[GuanglaiKangyi]

Coren, on 25 February 2013 - 05:33 PM, said:

Traited grenades with bleeding on explosions and vulnerability on criticals AND vulnerability on explosions, and maybe throw a sigil of earth, you can stack 20 odd vulnerability without too much hassle and a constant stream of maybe 10-15 bleed. Put in poison from the grenades and the occasional flame burst, explosive shot, poison volley, static shot, you get around 15 vulnerability, 12 bleeds, poison for... 10 seconds? Burning for a few seconds and confusion fir 2-3 seconds.

You can get way more than that.  With general condition duration runes you can get 25 bleeds and about 20 vuln and still have room to take HGH, which will give you about 10 stacks of might and 3-4 to the rest of the party.  You also get permapoison from Poison Grenade.  Grenades alone are like 20 vuln, 25 bleed, perma-poison, blind every 9s, 50% uptime on chill, and if you add pistol and Rocket Kick or trait Incendiary Powder, virtually 100% burn duration as well.  Glue Shot is 33% uptime on cripple and a short immobilize, and Static Shot adds more blind and confusion, which makes weakness the only condition that isn't covered.

A little bit OP, even.

[Dahk]

Kumori Tensei, on 25 February 2013 - 06:02 PM, said:

I hear no representatives from the ranger community lol. We got voided off that quick? sheesh.
What about trap rangers with axe/warhorn. Not only do they put out conditions in the form of bleeds/chills/poison/burning...but also those in combo fields. Also on top of that a party wide buff so frequently that gives swiftness/fury/and might. with the right pets also protection every 10 seconds, and aoe regen or chill or bleed or poison or any other condition you can imagine. Did i also mention a water field in the form of helaing spring that gives regen as well....oh man oh man. Rangers need some more loving hehe

Well, I know rangers do a good job of condition damage, but I'm not ready to say they are one of the best, which was why I wanted from people with more experience playing other professions.

Healing Spring is awesome for sure and the combo fields from traps are great, but I think these are the biggest reasons for them not being at the top:
- Very little vulnerable stacking.  This alone makes me very envious of engineers.
- Outside of Healing Spring, our combo fields aren't that great.  Burning already has a lot of uptime, so groups rarely need a fire combo field.  Poison is in the same boat.  Chill is pretty conditional for PvE and there's no damage from our frost trap, so dropping it contributes nothing to our dps.
- Our best condition to apply is probably bleeds, which is something that's already applied in excess by other professions/builds.

Edited by Dahk, 25 February 2013 - 07:19 PM.

[Skrobble]

In regards to rangers, how viable would a trap build be in PvE? I'm not seeing a very successful build that involves running in to a mob and stacking traps.

[matsif]

kendro1200, on 25 February 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

I'd put necro higher than ele, simply because of epidemic.

epidemic is nice in mob situations but against bosses where condition play actually shines, epidemic might as well be a blank skill.  You're better off taking a well, poison cloud, a signet, or anything else, unless the boss spawns some mobs and you can micro hitting the spawns with epidemic to hit the boss.  Eruption does the same thing that the whole necro chain does (with epidemic) in one skill, except it doesn't have the cripple (which you can get with another skill) or poison (which damage-wise is pretty bad anyways).  Engy does it with grenades and adds in a blind and freeze, which is a better control condition than cripple, and can add in burn like the ele.

Coren, on 25 February 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

Would be interesting to compare engineers to necros on full condition spec. Engineers have every single condition except fear. They stack bleeding, poison and vulnerability really easily, and burning too to a lesser extent.

having played both builds extensively, engineer can easily average 20 stacks of bleed and vuln and keep all 20 of them for the duration of a fight just from the autoattack and shrapnel grenade.  Necro I can average around 15 for bleed and none for vuln cause I don't carry an axe.  both can perma poison.  The only control necro has is a bit of cripple and fear/freeze if you take a staff (which kills any vuln stacks), while engy can do just about anything.  grenade engy is better in just about every form.  statistically you can build either to have the same condition damage/duration so it's not a question of the condition damage/duration stats.  To make it simple, engy can put up and sustain more bleeds in a faster time than necro can, making it better.

Skrobble, on 25 February 2013 - 06:36 PM, said:

In regards to rangers, how viable would a trap build be in PvE? I'm not seeing a very successful build that involves running in to a mob and stacking traps.

run shortbow and axe/torch or warhorn and trait for ground targeted traps, throw them from 600 range (range of axe).  build like any other condition build, utility skills become spike/flame trap and another skill that you switch between QZ or frost trap/vipers nest.  I generally run frost trap over even QZ because no one else in my usual group can apply freeze, which is imo the best control condition in the game.

[matsif]

for a general breakdown of conditions, I made this post a while ago..  Imo confusion is lackluster in PvE at best because most mobs attack slowly and generally doesn't last that long, and thus it is not in my breakdown.

tl;dr: bleed is better than all other damage conditions after about 6 stacks in a general condition damage build for any class.

matsif, on 24 January 2013 - 05:58 PM, said:

for the most commonly applied damaging conditions, assuming 0 and 1000 condition damage (a full condition build will have more than 1000, just makes math easier) at level 80:  

bleed (stacks intensity):
2.5 + (0.5 * Level) + (0.05 * Condition Damage) per stack per second
@ 0 condition damage: 42.5 dps per stack; damage(10 stacks)=425 dps, damage(25 stacks)=1062 dps
@ 1000 cond damage: 92.5 dps per stack; damage(10 stacks)=925 dps, damage(25 stacks)=2312.5 dps

poison*(stacks duration):
4 + Level + (0.1 * Condition Damage) per second
@ 0 condition damage: 84 dps
@ 1000 cond damage: 184 dps
*note that for self-healing mobs, it does decrease heal effectiveness by 33%

burn(stacks duration):
8 + (4 * Level) + (0.25 * Condition Damage) per second
@ 0 condition damage: 328 dps
@ 1000 cond damage: 578 dps

comparison of damage at 0 cond damage:
-burning always outperforms poison
-bleed will outperform poison after 2 stacks
-bleed will outperform burning after 8 stacks

comparison of damage at 1000 cond damage:
-burning always outperforms poison
-bleed will outperform poison after 2 stacks
-bleed will outperform burning after 6 stacks

[Kumori Tensei]

Dahk, on 25 February 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

snip

Hater lol. Black bear and winters bite. thats 20 seconds right there. You can keep up all the the time. But you do make some valid points mate. and yes i know others are better at condition than ranger.

In regards to this:

Skrobble, on 25 February 2013 - 06:36 PM, said:

how viable would a trap build be in PvE? I'm not seeing a very successful build that involves running in to a mob and stacking traps.

YOuc an just trait it to where you can actually toss em. So it's more safe that way.