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#1 Icdan

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 09:33 AM

Greetings,

A little backstory:
I made my first warrior, female norn, on the 25th of august.
I've got over 500 hours on her.
4 months ago I created a second warrior, male charr.
No idea on the hours :D

But my main two characters are my two warriors, I've started to main my charr now.
They're my only lvl 80's.

Now, I've been using several builds
Sword shield+soldier runes+healing shouts. A hammer variation of that. I attempted to make my own dual axe build, which wasn't all that succesful (lack of more general knowledge) and someone recommended me the Sonic Boom build, which works quite great for me (and I love greatswords).
However, I also love dual wielding axe. On my own testing build I had Sigil of Stamina and Sigil of Strength.

Now, I've been seeing some stuff that if I want to roll a succesful dual axe warrior I'm going to have to go towards berserker stuff.

However, imo I'm not that good yet at dodging/avoiding damage/surviving.

I was wondering if you could maybe give me tips as to where I could learn to do that the best.

(Not sure if this is in the correct forum...?)

Icdan

#2 Coren

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 10:22 AM

You want to learn how to survive and dodge? Well... It's the same for any profession. I'm new to warriors too, and usually use dual axes or axe/mace with a rifle secondary and a horn for running as backup. I also run a healing shout build, a classic 20/0/0/30/20

Best way to dodge in my opinion is bind a key to.dodge that's actually easy to access. I actually use a side button of my mouse and keyboard shortcuts for quick utilities and also for F keys. Keep a ranged weapon when you are hurt so you can keep damage up even when retreating back.

Keep an eye out for creature animations, most notably charge up moves. Dungeons require condition removal and some mobility options. Great sword shouting warriors tend to just stand there, thinking they can take punishment, which they clearly can't.

#3 Experiment Gone Bad

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 10:35 AM

Coren basically summed it up, as you play different and more instances, you tend to recognize certain charge attacks that you know you need to dodge (Kohler Golf Swing is the most basic example). Binding Dodge is also great (I have it in my shift key).

Another thing is using food, specifically Pies/Ghosts (Mixed, Omnom, Blackberry). They give you great (no cooldown) lifesteal, increase your DPS, and is a great buffer.

Learning when to dodge, when to move out, really comes to knowing the instance well, and to know an instance well you need to play an instance multiple times. So once you work on that you'll be able to get the hang of it, eventually.

Oh, and stay out of red circles. ;)

#4 Buran_Grey

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 11:22 AM

View PostIcdan, on 26 February 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:


No idea on the hours :D


/age in the chat shows the time with that character and the global hours of your account.

#5 Icdan

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 12:06 PM

Guess I should crawl out of AC and CoF... :P

Hmm. Gotta go back to modifying my axe build.
Must. Theorycraft.

Woop, food. I always forget that.

Guess I'll also have to work on the binding of my keys.
Thanks in any case.

@Buran_Grey
I know. But couldn't check at the time.
Thanks though.

#6 chullster

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 12:14 PM

View PostIcdan, on 26 February 2013 - 12:06 PM, said:

Guess I should crawl out of AC and CoF... :P


Not really, the end boss of CoF path 1 is great practice for dodging and has an easy-to-spot attack (the aoe burn application) and a less easy-to-spot attack (the KD). I'd rebind the dodge key (I use E so it's close by the main movement keys) definitely, and then stay where you are familiar and practice reprogramming your brain to the new key you use.

Edited by chullster, 26 February 2013 - 12:14 PM.


#7 Coren

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 12:34 PM

View Postchullster, on 26 February 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:



Not really, the end boss of CoF path 1 is great practice for dodging and has an easy-to-spot attack (the aoe burn application) and a less easy-to-spot attack (the KD). I'd rebind the dodge key (I use E so it's close by the main movement keys) definitely, and then stay where you are familiar and practice reprogramming your brain to the new key you use.

Pretty much this.

I mostly run AC and CoF and whether I run my engineer, warrior or mesmer, I almost never go down because I:

- Can time my dodges according to charging up attacks (those damned scavengers are good practice, because if you don't dodge their pounce, you're drowned).
- Take a life saving skill like elixir s for engineer, blink for mesmer and endure pain for warriors.
- Take.condition removals, possibly for the party too, like a traited elixir toss removes a.condition from those affected, shake it off for warriors and that glamor skill for mesmers which remove conditions every second (along with condition removal on heal use).

But if your goal is mindless slashing in Orr , then you don't need such builds. In dungeons and fractals, they're basically mandatory, otherwise you're a hindrance.

#8 Shadow209

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 01:03 PM

I'm also new to warrior and although I haven't played dungeons with it yet, I think, I might have some problems as well. Dodging is nice, but what, if you're out of dodges?
Warrior doesn't seem to have a good source of vigor and also no attack, that makes you invulnerable, like Blurred Frenzy on my mesmer.
Whirlwind Attack does that, but unfortuneately I hate Greatswords, so I play Axe/Axe. Endure pain has 90sec cd so it's not very viable.

It feels a bit like necro, just without Deathshroud.

#9 Experiment Gone Bad

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 01:42 PM

That's where endurance management comes in. Learning what to dodge, and when to dodge is the key to a lot of instances. Bosses usually have time gaps on when they use must-dodge attacks. If you find yourself running out of dodges something has gone wrong most likely (you aren't circling correctly, the boss miraculously does 2 big attacks back to back).

Also, don't be afraid to go ranged. You always have to be in melee to maximize your dps, but if you find your utility, heal, and dodge are all not available, switching to ranged weapons to wait out the cooldowns is not a bad idea. This is the problem with a lot of the newer zerk warriors ("* this, not channeling hundred blades to the fullest is a loss of dps, YOLO."). A dead DPSer is dead DPS.

EDIT: There are also attacks that you don't actually need to dodge, just to move out of the way. You can also use terrain to your advantage (kholer example, if you run out of dodge as he does the pull, you can move behind a pillar to alleviate it, kiting around the pillars when fighting subject alpha in CoE, etc.)

Edited by Experiment Gone Bad, 26 February 2013 - 01:43 PM.


#10 chullster

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 03:09 PM

View PostShadow209, on 26 February 2013 - 01:03 PM, said:

snip

What you mention is why signet of stamina rarely leaves the skill bar of my DPS war. Perma +50% endurance regen is not to be sniffed at, and it doubles as an emergency condition purge too, it also can't be stripped/flipped like vigor can, though this is very rare, and mainly in PvP I would have thought.

#11 Nikephoros

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 03:18 PM

View PostShadow209, on 26 February 2013 - 01:03 PM, said:

I'm also new to warrior and although I haven't played dungeons with it yet, I think, I might have some problems as well. Dodging is nice, but what, if you're out of dodges?
Warrior doesn't seem to have a good source of vigor and also no attack, that makes you invulnerable, like Blurred Frenzy on my mesmer.
Whirlwind Attack does that, but unfortuneately I hate Greatswords, so I play Axe/Axe. Endure pain has 90sec cd so it's not very viable.

It feels a bit like necro, just without Deathshroud.

There are only a few encounters that require enough rapid dodging to make you ever run out when you need it especially since Eviscerate or Whirlwind Attack are essentially 3rd dodges.  Bloomhunger, Cof3 end boss, and lava shaman end boss.  Those are the only time when you MIGHT run out of dodges if you're dodging the necessary things.  For those times, pack sig of stamina or warhorn if you feel the need.

Edited by Nikephoros, 26 February 2013 - 03:19 PM.


#12 Black Autumn

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 08:37 PM

My only 80 is a Warrior, too.  I've blown way more cash trying to nail down a build and gear than I want to admit, and had just dumped a lot on finally doubling down on crit-heal food when they snuck up and murdered that.  So now I'm back to being a lot more frail than I like - as a Warrior.

I have trouble dodging things at the right time since not all attacks want you to dodge at the same point in the animation so I panic and do it too early.  Or worse, latency causes my dodges to go off later than they should and I get hit anyway (especially frustrating when I time it just right - or think I do).

Yeah.  I suck.  =(

I may go to a heavy defense hammer build just to see if I am still awful at this game because Axe/Axe just got a lot less durable.

As to the question, I have found the daily dodger achievement, annoying as it is, has marginally improved my skill at it.  I suppose if I did dungeons that would help even more.  Daily dodger is a lot more forgiving, though.

#13 cold2

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 09:07 PM

View PostBlack Autumn, on 27 February 2013 - 08:37 PM, said:

My only 80 is a Warrior, too.  I've blown way more cash trying to nail down a build and gear than I want to admit, and had just dumped a lot on finally doubling down on crit-heal food when they snuck up and murdered that.  So now I'm back to being a lot more frail than I like - as a Warrior.

I have trouble dodging things at the right time since not all attacks want you to dodge at the same point in the animation so I panic and do it too early.  Or worse, latency causes my dodges to go off later than they should and I get hit anyway (especially frustrating when I time it just right - or think I do).

Yeah.  I suck.  =(

I may go to a heavy defense hammer build just to see if I am still awful at this game because Axe/Axe just got a lot less durable.

As to the question, I have found the daily dodger achievement, annoying as it is, has marginally improved my skill at it.  I suppose if I did dungeons that would help even more.  Daily dodger is a lot more forgiving, though.
Heal on crit foods haven't been murdered. The cooldown is only 1 second. It makes axe offhand worthless, but the food is still completely viable.

#14 Black Autumn

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 09:16 PM

View Postcold2, on 27 February 2013 - 09:07 PM, said:

Heal on crit foods haven't been murdered. The cooldown is only 1 second. It makes axe offhand worthless, but the food is still completely viable.

I noticed a big change.

#15 Rahlek

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 04:46 PM

View Postcold2, on 27 February 2013 - 09:07 PM, said:

Heal on crit foods haven't been murdered. The cooldown is only 1 second. It makes axe offhand worthless, but the food is still completely viable.

Indeed. I don't think Omnomns were really designed to be a survivability crutch.

To be honest I don't notice any real difference if I forget to eat another one once the one before it expires, and didn't notice a real difference in my survivability from before I knew about the food and after I started using it.

I am going to likely be changing over to mace offhand outside of AOE heavy situations, though. :qq:

View PostBlack Autumn, on 27 February 2013 - 08:37 PM, said:

My only 80 is a Warrior, too.  I've blown way more cash trying to nail down a build and gear than I want to admit, and had just dumped a lot on finally doubling down on crit-heal food when they snuck up and murdered that.  So now I'm back to being a lot more frail than I like - as a Warrior.

I have trouble dodging things at the right time since not all attacks want you to dodge at the same point in the animation so I panic and do it too early.  Or worse, latency causes my dodges to go off later than they should and I get hit anyway (especially frustrating when I time it just right - or think I do).

Yeah.  I suck.  =(

I may go to a heavy defense hammer build just to see if I am still awful at this game because Axe/Axe just got a lot less durable.

As to the question, I have found the daily dodger achievement, annoying as it is, has marginally improved my skill at it.  I suppose if I did dungeons that would help even more.  Daily dodger is a lot more forgiving, though.

Practicing with the Daily Dodger will definitely help. I was fine with dodging before, but definitely feel that that daily has helped me hone my avoidance skills even more. There are times when I'm just not quick enough on the trigger, even so, though... and there's nothing you can do about the dreaded lagmonster.

Hammer builds can be fun for sure. I really enjoy running with a hammer on fights like the grawl fractal first boss where you have to keep the Veterans away from the hostages. Plus, my characher is a max size/build Charr, so him swinging a hammer around just kinda looks brutal. If you're not running speed groups, Hammer might just be more fun for you anyhow.

Edited by Rahlek, 28 February 2013 - 04:49 PM.


#16 heatrr

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 01:25 PM

View PostBlack Autumn, on 27 February 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

I noticed a big change.

So a 1 sec cool down equates to "a big change"?
Hardly. Using heal on crit food is still quite viable and still works effectively.

#17 Thaddeuz

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 01:49 PM

View Postheatrr, on 01 March 2013 - 01:25 PM, said:

So a 1 sec cool down equates to "a big change"?
Hardly. Using heal on crit food is still quite viable and still works effectively.

Big change. A FREAKING BIG CHANGE. Sorry i'm a bit pissed off by this change :qq: . My guardian have about 50% precision and i was using the sigil of perception to stack precision. My whirling wrath was healing me for about 5k to 8k hp, Symbol of Wrath was healing me between 3k to 5k, Smite could heal me for about 14K, but usually only healed me between 8k to 10K.  Now pretty much all of these attack heal me between 0.3k to 0.6k Hp.

On my warrior, HB healed me about 6k and Whirling Axe healed me between 10k to 14k. Now they also heal me between 0.3k to 0.6k hp.

This is a massive nerf. Still the Pie/Ghost are still viable, since its heal you about 300 hp per second if you have a rapid attack with high precision, but its was a massive nerf.

Edited by Thaddeuz, 01 March 2013 - 01:50 PM.


#18 heatrr

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 01:53 PM

Ironic, my guardian is doing just fine, as well as my warrior when it comes to using heal to crit food, despite the hysteria to the contrary.

#19 Black Autumn

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 06:18 PM

View Postheatrr, on 01 March 2013 - 01:25 PM, said:

So a 1 sec cool down equates to "a big change"?
Hardly. Using heal on crit food is still quite viable and still works effectively.

Gee, I'm so glad you could tell me what I observed.  Not once did I claim my observation was objective.  I stated clearly it was subjective, just like your observations concerning your characters.  Also, stating that I noticed a big change doesn't mean it isn't still helpful and I never claimed it wasn't.

#20 Relentless Raven

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 06:45 PM

If you're having trouble staying alive start using more Knight's gear and then switch gradually back to Bezerker's as you get more adept at dodging.

#21 Ioflux

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 07:25 PM

View Postheatrr, on 01 March 2013 - 01:25 PM, said:

So a 1 sec cool down equates to "a big change"?
Hardly. Using heal on crit food is still quite viable and still works effectively.

Going from 3-10 procs of heal per second to 1 every 1.5-2s is a huge nerf.

#22 Lucav

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 06:52 AM

View PostRelentless Raven, on 01 March 2013 - 06:45 PM, said:

If you're having trouble staying alive start using more Knight's gear and then switch gradually back to Bezerker's as you get more adept at dodging.
Its not quite as easy as you make it sound, there is quite a lot of incidental damage that cannot be effectively dodged, no matter how good you are at it.

#23 cold2

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:11 PM

View PostLucav, on 04 March 2013 - 06:52 AM, said:

Its not quite as easy as you make it sound, there is quite a lot of incidental damage that cannot be effectively dodged, no matter how good you are at it.
For this sort of stuff, bring a guardian.

#24 Rahlek

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:22 PM

View PostLucav, on 04 March 2013 - 06:52 AM, said:

Its not quite as easy as you make it sound, there is quite a lot of incidental damage that cannot be effectively dodged, no matter how good you are at it.

Do you mostly PUG or do you run with an organized guild group? Sorry if you already said which, I'm not through my first cup of coffee yet. ;)

Edited by Rahlek, 04 March 2013 - 05:23 PM.


#25 Relentless Raven

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:47 PM

View PostLucav, on 04 March 2013 - 06:52 AM, said:

Its not quite as easy as you make it sound, there is quite a lot of incidental damage that cannot be effectively dodged, no matter how good you are at it.

Agreed, but more Toughness never hurt anyone. Regardless you need to know the fights for the best chance at avoiding damage while dealing as much as possible.

#26 Rahlek

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:59 PM

View PostRelentless Raven, on 04 March 2013 - 05:47 PM, said:

Agreed, but more Toughness never hurt anyone. Regardless you need to know the fights for the best chance at avoiding damage while dealing as much as possible.

Ehhhh given aggro (what there is of it) is based partially on toughness, then more toughness COULD hurt very much depending on the rest of your group makeup. :P

I agree about knowing the fights tho, which is why I'm curious if he runs with a fairly static guild group or with PUGs mostly. It's a lot easier to get into survivability patterns if you're accustomed to running with a semistatic group composition.

#27 Relentless Raven

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 06:01 PM

Aggro is based on Toughness? I did not know that. Wild weird stuff! Time to stop putting off swapping those three Knights pieces out...

#28 Rahlek

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 06:11 PM

View PostRelentless Raven, on 04 March 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

Aggro is based on Toughness? I did not know that. Wild weird stuff! Time to stop putting off swapping those three Knights pieces out...

Yep. I mean there's not really an "aggro table" to speak of, but what there is seems to be partially based off toughness, armor, and who's got a shield on. I believe proximity to the mob also factors in.

#29 Lucav

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 06:14 PM

View PostRahlek, on 04 March 2013 - 05:22 PM, said:

Do you mostly PUG or do you run with an organized guild group? Sorry if you already said which, I'm not through my first cup of coffee yet. ;)
Mostly pugs

#30 Rahlek

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 06:33 PM

View PostLucav, on 04 March 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

Mostly pugs

Well, since you really don't have to min/max and you're probably only rarely (if ever) doing speed runs, I might try something like a tankier (but not too tanky) support Hammer build to adapt your playstyle a little bit. Hammer is fun to play and may feel a bit sturdier for you as it comes with a weakness, cripple, knockdown, and stun.




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