Jump to content

  • Curse Sites
Help
- - - - -

so are thieves still op?


  • Please log in to reply
30 replies to this topic

#1 zoopop

zoopop

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 68 posts

Posted 26 February 2013 - 06:04 PM

Plan on coming back but left when i started seeing thifes everywhere in BG and in WvW, has this changed at all? has anything been really added to the game? Should i come back?

#2 Yski

Yski

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 217 posts

Posted 26 February 2013 - 06:07 PM

Well, the popularity hasn't really changed much, but most of them really aren't all that difficult to deal with. Good thieves are a rare breed.

As for stuff having been added, I don't know how long you've been away but there are things like the living story and a new sPvP map that have been added, so why not give it a try and see if it's enough to keep you playing?

Edited by Yski, 26 February 2013 - 06:09 PM.


#3 Andemius

Andemius

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 699 posts
  • Guild Tag:[herd]
  • Server:Desolation

Posted 26 February 2013 - 06:15 PM

Depends which thieves your worried about. The pistol/dagger dolyak killing breed is still around, but thats easily countered by escorting. Backstab/PW are roamers, if you're in wvw I wouldn't be too worried about them, worry about the classes that give stability, do aoe damage and are more useful in a team context.

Hot-join will always be full of thieves, because it's easy to tag people.

tldr; not really.

#4 Atticus

Atticus

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 265 posts

Posted 26 February 2013 - 06:21 PM

Thieves are still OP in WvW at least, their risk vs reward ratio is still ludicrously high compared to other classes. Just watched one thief harass a 10 player zerg over half the map because he really just had that many "oh shit" buttons and that much stealth (did surprisingly good damage as well) and last time I checked no other class can do that not even elementalists.

#5 El Duderino

El Duderino

    Golem Rider

  • Members
  • 2292 posts
  • Location:Drowning in a White Russian listening to Creedence
  • Profession:Mesmer
  • Guild Tag:[DuDE]
  • Server:Blackgate

Posted 26 February 2013 - 07:00 PM

Personally, I am surprised they made the same mistake in GW2 that they did with the assassin in GW1. Having a ludicrously high DPS class and giving them great stealth/runaway skills doesn't mean they are balanced just because they have a low armor class.

With thieves I feel either they are OP or they are not even viable.

Although, a step in the right direction would be to nerf infinite stealth.

#6 st_clouds

st_clouds

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 78 posts

Posted 26 February 2013 - 07:12 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 26 February 2013 - 07:00 PM, said:

Personally, I am surprised they made the same mistake in GW2 that they did with the assassin in GW1. Having a ludicrously high DPS class and giving them great stealth/runaway skills doesn't mean they are balanced just because they have a low armor class.

With thieves I feel either they are OP or they are not even viable.

Although, a step in the right direction would be to nerf infinite stealth.

Yes, because in GW1 assassins were a requisite in organized matches *snicker* *snicker* Must be why you see so many axe warriors, thumpers and so few assassins.

And not sure what you're talking about, their dps is actually pretty low esp in GW2. Compared axe warrior that can pretty much spam eviscerate like there's no tomorrow. Sure backstab is big, but it's very situational, and it's much harder to satisfy that condition than just spamming eviscerate. Their other good attack HS is also very situational to be worthwhile 75% of the time. There are counters to each and they're fairly easy.

Oh and snares/chill work wonders on them, but no that'd actually require some thinking.

Edited by st_clouds, 26 February 2013 - 07:20 PM.


#7 Elcee

Elcee

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 214 posts
  • Location:YOU DRANK GOLF BALLS

Posted 26 February 2013 - 07:22 PM

View Postst_clouds, on 26 February 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

Yes, because in GW1 assassins were a requisite in organized matches *snicker* *snicker* Must be why you see so many axe warriors, thumpers and so few assassins.

Definitely had nothing to do with how they were repeatedly nerfed for being able to run dumb builds. There's a reason Shroud of Silence was probably the hardest nerf in the game until Smiter's Boon. Or do Sineptitude/Sinsplit/etc. not count?

Edited by Elcee, 26 February 2013 - 07:22 PM.


#8 El Duderino

El Duderino

    Golem Rider

  • Members
  • 2292 posts
  • Location:Drowning in a White Russian listening to Creedence
  • Profession:Mesmer
  • Guild Tag:[DuDE]
  • Server:Blackgate

Posted 26 February 2013 - 07:23 PM

View Postst_clouds, on 26 February 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

Yes, because in GW1 assassins were a requisite in organized matches *snicker* *snicker* Must be why you see so many axe warriors, thumpers and so few assassins.

And not sure what you're talking about, their dps is actually pretty low esp in GW2. Compared axe warrior that can pretty much spam eviscerate like there's no tomorrow. Sure backstab is big, but it's very situational, and it's much harder to satisfy that condition than just spamming eviscerate. Their other good attack HS is also very situational to be worthwhile 75% of the time. There are counters to each and they're fairly easy.

Oh and snares/chill work wonders on them, but no that'd actually require some thinking.

Are you here to contribute or just troll?

#9 st_clouds

st_clouds

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 78 posts

Posted 26 February 2013 - 07:43 PM

View PostElcee, on 26 February 2013 - 07:22 PM, said:

Definitely had nothing to do with how they were repeatedly nerfed for being able to run dumb builds. There's a reason Shroud of Silence was probably the hardest nerf in the game until Smiter's Boon. Or do Sineptitude/Sinsplit/etc. not count?

SoS was abused, but ironically not by primary assassins


Sinsplit was a finesse build, that few except for the top ranking guilds were able to pull off effectively. Also it's a largely GvG build not HA. Definitely requires more thoughts than hitting c+ space and spamming the IB ala thumpers.

Bottom line if Assassins were overpowered, there're other classes way more overpowered. As a profession it was actually not that popular in PvE and PvP except for RA. And in RA speaking overpowered, the monk was king. But hey we don't balance stuff around RA - right?

Anyways back to thieves, they're about perform, def. not underpowered and not overpowered. A bunch of ppl screaming bloody murder because they play glass cannon, low hp, no cc and got facerolled a few times.

Edited by st_clouds, 26 February 2013 - 07:45 PM.


#10 ShezuTsukai

ShezuTsukai

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 481 posts
  • Location:Coast of Nebraska
  • Profession:Thief
  • Guild Tag:[Soul]
  • Server:Fort Aspenwood

Posted 26 February 2013 - 07:44 PM

Thieves are no more OP than any other class. It truly depends on the player. I watched a thief BS a group of three (ranger, ele, warrior) down then get dropped in one sec by trying BS on a grenade eng. Pop goes the thief.

I simply resuggest what many others have answered to this question: make a thief, play, and learn the weaknesses and tells of what they are trying to do. Then you will see how easy it is to beat all but the best in any class.

#11 El Duderino

El Duderino

    Golem Rider

  • Members
  • 2292 posts
  • Location:Drowning in a White Russian listening to Creedence
  • Profession:Mesmer
  • Guild Tag:[DuDE]
  • Server:Blackgate

Posted 26 February 2013 - 07:47 PM

View Postst_clouds, on 26 February 2013 - 07:43 PM, said:

SoS was abused, but ironically not by primary assassins


Sinsplit was a finesse build, that few except for the top ranking guilds were able to pull off effectively. Also it's a largely GvG build not HA. Definitely requires more thoughts than hitting c+ space and spamming the IB ala thumpers.

Bottom line if Assassins were overpowered, there're other classes way more overpowered. As a profession it was actually not that popular in PvE and PvP except for RA. And in RA speaking overpowered, the monk was king. But hey we don't balance stuff around RA - right?

Anyways back to thieves, they're about perform, def. not underpowered and not overpowered. A bunch of ppl screaming bloody murder because they play glass cannon and got facerolled a few times.

Since you have posted you never played any organized PvP and detested the elitism in places like GvG and HA, I fail to see how anyone can take your comments as anything more than trolling and flame bait.

You have no reference to speak of when it comes to anything about PvP in GW1 as you didn't play any competitive PvP.

As for GW2 - it has been said time and time again, just because something has a counter doesn't mean it is balanced.

Edited by El Duderino, 26 February 2013 - 07:48 PM.


#12 Atticus

Atticus

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 265 posts

Posted 26 February 2013 - 07:53 PM

View Postst_clouds, on 26 February 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

Yes, because in GW1 assassins were a requisite in organized matches *snicker* *snicker* Must be why you see so many axe warriors, thumpers and so few assassins.

And not sure what you're talking about, their dps is actually pretty low esp in GW2. Compared axe warrior that can pretty much spam eviscerate like there's no tomorrow. Sure backstab is big, but it's very situational, and it's much harder to satisfy that condition than just spamming eviscerate. Their other good attack HS is also very situational to be worthwhile 75% of the time. There are counters to each and they're fairly easy.

Oh and snares/chill work wonders on them, but no that'd actually require some thinking.

Wow you are so out of touch on this, thieves burst DPS (which is often all it comes down to when there's enough of it) in WvW and sPvP is pretty much one of the highest of any class right now. The big difference is that in order to achieve that level of DPS the corresponding level is skill is almost painfully low, pop signets, use steal/mug, spam heartseeker, backstab + stealth away if the opponent isn't dead in 5 sec to try again, that doesn't exactly take a deft touch to execute. Also calling eviscerate OP is something people did in beta, it's been nerfed to shit and is pretty close to useless now so you might want to find something else to compare thieves damage to.

Also snares, chills do work wonders however considering that many players often don't carry our crystal balls with us to see the future it's kinda hard to constantly anticipate where a thief will attack from or move to so we can use those. Regardless chills and snares aren't a hard counter for stealth, in fact NOTHING is and that's the crux of the problem, every other skill has something that can directly counter it except stealth.

#13 st_clouds

st_clouds

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 78 posts

Posted 26 February 2013 - 07:59 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 26 February 2013 - 07:47 PM, said:

Since you have posted you never played any organized PvP and detested the elitism in places like GvG and HA, I fail to see how anyone can take your comments as anything more than trolling and flame bait.

You have no reference to speak of when it comes to anything about PvP in GW1 as you didn't play any competitive PvP.

As for GW2 - it has been said time and time again, just because something has a counter doesn't mean it is balanced.

And you troll all GW2 threads, I fail to see why anyone other than trolls would take your opinion seriously on a GW2 class.

View PostAtticus, on 26 February 2013 - 07:53 PM, said:

Wow you are so out of touch on this, thieves burst DPS (which is often all it comes down to when there's enough of it) in WvW and sPvP is pretty much one of the highest of any class right now. The big difference is that in order to achieve that level of DPS the corresponding level is skill is almost painfully low, pop signets, use steal/mug, spam heartseeker, backstab + stealth away if the opponent isn't dead in 5 sec to try again, that doesn't exactly take a deft touch to execute. Also calling eviscerate OP is something people did in beta, it's been nerfed to shit and is pretty close to useless now so you might want to find something else to compare thieves damage to.

Also snares, chills do work wonders however considering that many players often don't carry our crystal balls with us to see the future it's kinda hard to constantly anticipate where a thief will attack from or move to so we can use those. Regardless chills and snares aren't a hard counter for stealth, in fact NOTHING is and that's the crux of the problem, every other skill has something that can directly counter it except stealth.

Dude mug doesn't recharge in 5 seconds. Without mug, CnD can be easily dodged away, and you forgot to mention that the thief by now is about all out of initiative. No initiative - no cloak, if he has other cloak, no burst. No cloak = dead. If you didn't die after the initial burst, he's toast.

#14 El Duderino

El Duderino

    Golem Rider

  • Members
  • 2292 posts
  • Location:Drowning in a White Russian listening to Creedence
  • Profession:Mesmer
  • Guild Tag:[DuDE]
  • Server:Blackgate

Posted 26 February 2013 - 08:02 PM

View Postst_clouds, on 26 February 2013 - 07:59 PM, said:

And you troll all GW2 threads, I fail to see why anyone other than trolls would take your opinion seriously on a GW2 class.

Let's look at our two quotes and see which one would constitute trolling and which is constructive conversation:

View PostEl Duderino, on 26 February 2013 - 07:00 PM, said:

Personally, I am surprised they made the same mistake in GW2 that they did with the assassin in GW1. Having a ludicrously high DPS class and giving them great stealth/runaway skills doesn't mean they are balanced just because they have a low armor class.

With thieves I feel either they are OP or they are not even viable.

Although, a step in the right direction would be to nerf infinite stealth.

View Postst_clouds, on 26 February 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

Yes, because in GW1 assassins were a requisite in organized matches *snicker* *snicker* Must be why you see so many axe warriors, thumpers and so few assassins.

[snip]

Oh and snares/chill work wonders on them, but no that'd actually require some thinking.


#15 Norseman

Norseman

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 150 posts
  • Guild Tag:[NORD]
  • Server:Jade Quarry

Posted 26 February 2013 - 08:09 PM

View Postzoopop, on 26 February 2013 - 06:04 PM, said:

Plan on coming back but left when i started seeing thifes everywhere in BG and in WvW, has this changed at all? has anything been really added to the game? Should i come back?

Here is what today's breed of thief does. They wait around until you are in combat with 1 or more opponents. They jump in and hit you with their super high dps while you are distracted and/or have gone through a few of your cooldowns. So you might be at 80-90% health, have used up a few skills/defensive/cooldowns and you here that "Swoop PINGPINGPING" and you're a goner.

Most people have figured out how to kill thiefs so they either resort to the tactic I mentioned or they hit you, and keep stealthing with that #5 dagger skill, and just harass you or use their unmatched speed and getaway skills to run away.

Very few will go head to head with you 1v1 any more. They are kind of like a pesky mosquito or no-see-um.

Oh and then there are the stealth teams...

My best day in GW2 yet will be when Anet announces the mistake of including a high DPS stealth class and makes all thiefs reroll. :)

#16 Lunacy Polish

Lunacy Polish

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 455 posts

Posted 26 February 2013 - 08:15 PM

Duderino:  nicely done sir XD

As to the question at hand the short answer is yes.  The long answer is people like myself have learned to deal with it.

I leveled one up took it to WvW and in so doing not only roflstomped people but understood why it was so easy.  The problem is now that I understand I now present a credible threat to a thief player.

Mechanically they are still on a different level than the rest but the meta has changed to be less favorable to the old tricks.  This said if you understand all these factors it is still a potent profession that is just flat out better.

#17 st_clouds

st_clouds

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 78 posts

Posted 26 February 2013 - 08:17 PM

View PostNorseman, on 26 February 2013 - 08:09 PM, said:

Here is what today's breed of thief does. They wait around until you are in combat with 1 or more opponents. They jump in and hit you with their super high dps while you are distracted and/or have gone through a few of your cooldowns. So you might be at 80-90% health, have used up a few skills/defensive/cooldowns and you here that "Swoop PINGPINGPING" and you're a goner.

Most people have figured out how to kill thiefs so they either resort to the tactic I mentioned or they hit you, and keep stealthing with that #5 dagger skill, and just harass you or use their unmatched speed and getaway skills to run away.

Very few will go head to head with you 1v1 any more. They are kind of like a pesky mosquito or no-see-um.

Oh and then there are the stealth teams...

My best day in GW2 yet will be when Anet announces the mistake of including a high DPS stealth class and makes all thiefs reroll. :)


Yes a farer assessment. 1v1 they're easy. If you are distracted then yeah you're toast. But hello - that's the point of this class.

#18 Elcee

Elcee

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 214 posts
  • Location:YOU DRANK GOLF BALLS

Posted 26 February 2013 - 09:22 PM

View Postst_clouds, on 26 February 2013 - 07:43 PM, said:



SoS was abused, but ironically not by primary assassins


Sinsplit was a finesse build, that few except for the top ranking guilds were able to pull off effectively. Also it's a largely GvG build not HA. Definitely requires more thoughts than hitting c+ space and spamming the IB ala thumpers.

Bottom line if Assassins were overpowered, there're other classes way more overpowered. As a profession it was actually not that popular in PvE and PvP except for RA. And in RA speaking overpowered, the monk was king. But hey we don't balance stuff around RA - right?

Anyways back to thieves, they're about perform, def. not underpowered and not overpowered. A bunch of ppl screaming bloody murder because they play glass cannon, low hp, no cc and got facerolled a few times.

You mean the SoS that was nerfed almost right after Mistral Edge won a monthly with an SoS Deadly Arts version of Sineptitude where the Assassin ran SoS? Are you sure you're not thinking of Mark of Insecurity was WAS abused largely by Necros/flaggers? Remember "Fear Me!" sins before they were nerfed? Remember the joy that was facing AP spike where the team would spike and then kite with Fall Back like *s? Remember Shadow Prison gankers?  And of course the insanity of Seeping Wound beause somehow that got through QA.

They weren't a mainstay on "balanced" teams but they sure had ridiculous builds that got nerfed.


Yeah I know I'm kinda going off topic here sorry but it's actually relavent. I'll leave it at that to not derail this.

Edited by Elcee, 26 February 2013 - 09:25 PM.


#19 BnJ

BnJ

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 193 posts
  • Profession:Engineer
  • Guild Tag:[MARK]
  • Server:Darkhaven

Posted 26 February 2013 - 10:40 PM

Thieves aren't OP, they haven't been for a long time.  They can be annoying sometimes, even frustrating, but OP?  No.

People have finally caught on with how to deal with them.  There's a counter profession/build to every class right now I've found, I'm pretty happy with the balancing at the moment.  Can always use some slight tweaks here n there, but nothing serious.

@OP If you were having trouble with them before, you'll no doubt struggle with them now.  Not sure when you last played, but I don't see hordes of thieves running around anymore using that old GC cookie cutter build.  Most people have realised it was just a gimmicky build to instagibbed 1v1, but it's easily countered if you know what you're doing.

#20 Katsumi Kei

Katsumi Kei

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 198 posts
  • Location:Bulgaria
  • Profession:Thief
  • Guild Tag:[WvW]
  • Server:Gandara

Posted 26 February 2013 - 11:07 PM

Is this another QQ topic? Looks like one.

I do not view thieves as overpowered. They do have probably the highest DPS, as other classes have the highest HP, highest defense, healing output and so on. If you have problems fighting thieves - make one, play it and you will understand how and why it ticks. And yes, the idea of the class is to stab you in the back when you are fighting someone else.

On the matter of number of thieves playing, I think the majority is range fighting warriors/rangers (in WvW, not playing a lot of sPvP).

#21 GuanglaiKangyi

GuanglaiKangyi

    Golem Rider

  • Members
  • 2218 posts

Posted 27 February 2013 - 05:11 PM

Thieves were never OP.  Culling was.  Anet has been taking steps to fix that so ideally it should be better.  I don't WvW that much so i don't know how it looks in practice though.

#22 Vysander

Vysander

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 333 posts
  • Profession:Thief
  • Guild Tag:[UNS]
  • Server:Isle of Janthir

Posted 27 February 2013 - 05:24 PM

View PostGuanglaiKangyi, on 27 February 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:

Thieves were never OP.  Culling was.  Anet has been taking steps to fix that so ideally it should be better.  I don't WvW that much so i don't know how it looks in practice though.

Well, to be fair, the original assassin signet was OP. And dancing dagger was a little ridiculous (though they over nerfed that imo).

#23 Vingilot

Vingilot

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 68 posts

Posted 27 February 2013 - 05:39 PM

I roam WvW as a solo ranger and I would say about 75% of my encounters are with thieves. Reason being because they are the class that has the most low risk roaming due to the stealth abilities they have. Rangers on the hand can't afford the luxury of f*cking up in a 1v1 or 2v1 for that matter.

Every time I fight a thief the following outcomes are: I kill him, he kills me, or he runs around and stealth like no tomorrow wasting my time, or dragging the fight to the point where I just don't even care anymore or to the point where he stalls me long enough to have the zerg show up and kill me.

So if I can't kill a thief within the first few minutes of fighting, I just go on my merry way. Does this mean thief are OP? No not really, though even with 3K armor and 16K health I still die to a backstab thief in a matter of seconds if I am not paying attention, they're just extremely annoying and everyone and their mother plays one in WvW hence being the hipster that I am, am never going to play one, at least not in PvP or WvW.

Edited by Vingilot, 27 February 2013 - 05:40 PM.


#24 Lunacy Polish

Lunacy Polish

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 455 posts

Posted 27 February 2013 - 08:48 PM

I have to really disagree with a few of the last replies.  Thieves are OP, the fact we’ve learned to deal with it doesn’t change that.  I base my argument on Three Pillars.

Pillar One:  The Thief has a much better design concept than any other profession.

The problem with Thieves isn't their damage or "permastealth" per se.  The problem is that this profession was built to a smarter design paradigm than every other profession.  Every other profession’s design is based on how it interacts with other game objects.  The thief by way of contrast is rather explicitly designed to interact with players; its mechanics are explicitly designed to surprise, ambush, frustrate and evade human beings at the keyboard.

The thief is designed to metagame and combat the people playing the game by exploiting basic human weaknesses.  If you can’t see it or anticipate it, you are at a disadvantage to it.  It’s far cleverer than any other profession in this regard.

Pillar Two: The Mechanics of the Thief (its interface and the way the profession works on the whole) are superior.

Most professions are littered with bugged or useless abilities that need reworking.  Thief traits and utilities are consistently good, useful and functional.  Even the least popular weapon set is viable.  All weapon sets are distinct despite some shared moves and most are powerful.  This in and of itself is good, however this makes other professions comparatively worse as they cannot even access the abilities they’re supposed to have.  I will grant you this is essentially an argument everyone else is underpowered but the effect is the same.

Only Thieves can dictate both iteration and sequence of weapon skills, and only thieves can truly customize their resource management in terms of how often a weapon skill can be used.

The inherent mechanics of Initiative, Steal and Stealth are pervasive and executed well in how they integrate to the skills and traits, and are more powerful than the exclusive mechanics of any other profession benefitting the player excessively.

Pillar Three:  The Thief’s Inherent Design is so good it sets a minimum effectiveness floor for inexperienced or unskilled players, and offers excessively powerful powerful and unique capabilities good players can take advantage of as follows:
  • With a thief, the positioning for most common attacks is way less precise save perhaps for actual back stabs.  Heartseeker plays for you.  Death Blossom plays for you.  The shortbow will hit the guy you want to hit if you target anything near him.  There is a clear pattern here.  Therefore situational awareness isn't nearly as hard, and you negate the other player’s skills in observation and situational awareness completely until you choose to begin the conflict.  Even if they are more experienced than you it doesn’t matter until the fighting actually starts.  There’s an old saying “whoever shoots first usually wins”.
  • You never have to go into a fight with pre existing damage, conditions, important abilities on CD, or other maladies to compensate for regardless of your personal skill level.  You have the power to select opponents with all of these problems however.
  • Your Elite skill is as close as GW2 gets to an I Win button.  It can be countered, but it cannot be ignored.  If it’s countered, your opponent is vulnerable to whatever you do to him while he is countering.  It’s so good I’ve seen a good thief use this elite to kill another player while just hiding in Shadow Refuge and doing nothing else.
  • A thief can force the situation to end even if you counter them perfectly and correctly if they do it early enough in the fight.  You thus have a big safety margin that's very forgiving of inexperience, and if the player’s skill improves, he actually becomes even more effective because he will do maximum damage before retreating.
Nothing any player can do can do anything more than temporarily counter these four advantages.  A thief essentially only dies if completely ridiculously overwhelmed or if he makes a mistake.  By contrast a good thief can hunt opportunistically like no one else can and force losing situations on other players using these four advantages.  One could argue this is essentially how any profession works, however these particular circumstances afford a unique leverage which is more effective than most other mechanisms in the game, and in more situations.

#25 phantom reverie

phantom reverie

    Fahrar Cub

  • Members
  • 24 posts

Posted 28 February 2013 - 06:47 AM

So many WVW complaints where the player is caught walking around by themselves and getting ganked... I used to play a thief in WVW ganking solo players stupid enough to be wandering around with glass cannon builds, but for zerging (best way to make badges) aoe>anything a thief can do.

First off this is the PVE forum.

In low lvl fractals and dungeons thieves are 2nd rate warriors.
In high lvl fractals (40+) thieves are nothing compared to a guardian (warriors are pretty useless too).
In low ranking SPVP thieves are good because lower ranked players tend to wander around the map aimlessly.
In higher ranked SPVP thieves stealth is counter intuitive for capping points.

I don't see how thieves are anything but average.

In PVP and WVW thieves are only good for taking advantage of bad players... I currently only play my guardian now due to fractals and when I do go into SPVP or WVW thieves don't give me any problems in capping points, zergs, and when I am alone (very rarely) I just walk away...

As for rangers and necros, all the others classes are OP compared to you guys in any type of gameplay.

Edited by phantom reverie, 28 February 2013 - 06:48 AM.


#26 Korra

Korra

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1415 posts
  • Location:Sweden
  • Server:Far Shiverpeaks

Posted 28 February 2013 - 08:25 AM

View Postphantom reverie, on 28 February 2013 - 06:47 AM, said:

So many WVW complaints where the player is caught walking around by themselves and getting ganked... I used to play a thief in WVW ganking solo players stupid enough to be wandering around with glass cannon builds, but for zerging (best way to make badges) aoe>anything a thief can do.

First off this is the PVE forum.

In low lvl fractals and dungeons thieves are 2nd rate warriors.
In high lvl fractals (40+) thieves are nothing compared to a guardian (warriors are pretty useless too).
In low ranking SPVP thieves are good because lower ranked players tend to wander around the map aimlessly.
In higher ranked SPVP thieves stealth is counter intuitive for capping points.

I don't see how thieves are anything but average.

In PVP and WVW thieves are only good for taking advantage of bad players... I currently only play my guardian now due to fractals and when I do go into SPVP or WVW thieves don't give me any problems in capping points, zergs, and when I am alone (very rarely) I just walk away...

As for rangers and necros, all the others classes are OP compared to you guys in any type of gameplay.

You obviously lack knowledge of what a good thief is able to achive. Let me counter your points.

In low lvl fractals and dungeons thieves are 2nd rate warriors. Nothing wrong with this as low lvl fractals are really easy.
In high lvl fractals (40+) thieves are nothing compared to a guardian (warriors are pretty useless too). While guardian can be the pvehero class by design, thieves can perma blind, perma weakness, spamable Blast,  group stealth on demand and awesome dps. so 1 good thief that knows wha he is doing should be more than welcome in any  high lvl fractal.
In low ranking SPVP thieves are good because lower ranked players tend to wander around the map aimlessly.
There's not such a thing as low ranking spvp. The ranking system didn't work.
In higher ranked SPVP thieves stealth is counter intuitive for capping points. By High rank spvp i'm guessing you mean tpvp, in that case my friend let me say to you that the genuine ability thieves have to burst any class in few seconds is a clue to destroy bunkers and take out enemy's DD.

#27 sploosh

sploosh

    Fahrar Cub

  • Members
  • 21 posts

Posted 28 February 2013 - 10:57 AM

View Postphantom reverie, on 28 February 2013 - 06:47 AM, said:

So many WVW complaints where the player is caught walking around by themselves and getting ganked... I used to play a thief in WVW ganking solo players stupid enough to be wandering around with glass cannon builds, but for zerging (best way to make badges) aoe>anything a thief can do.

First off this is the PVE forum.

In low lvl fractals and dungeons thieves are 2nd rate warriors.
In high lvl fractals (40+) thieves are nothing compared to a guardian (warriors are pretty useless too).
In low ranking SPVP thieves are good because lower ranked players tend to wander around the map aimlessly.
In higher ranked SPVP thieves stealth is counter intuitive for capping points.

I don't see how thieves are anything but average.

In PVP and WVW thieves are only good for taking advantage of bad players... I currently only play my guardian now due to fractals and when I do go into SPVP or WVW thieves don't give me any problems in capping points, zergs, and when I am alone (very rarely) I just walk away...

As for rangers and necros, all the others classes are OP compared to you guys in any type of gameplay.

Seems like you just can't play this class.
low fractals - Who even does that?
high level fractals - Spammable Blastfinisher[e.g.: Area: Might, Heal], stealth(hf doing dredge without spy kits and without a thief), blind, weakness, HIGH dmg.
sPvP - there is no need to talk about that since you can faceroll ppl with any class there
tPvP - Mobility, Burst, Stealthrezz to only name a few things that a thief can do.


Sure you don't get bursted down by bad BS thiefs because you propably play a tanky guardian. Any good S/D or D/P thief that knows what he is doing will still kill you in a 1on1.

#28 phantom reverie

phantom reverie

    Fahrar Cub

  • Members
  • 24 posts

Posted 28 February 2013 - 11:02 PM

Everything you said just proves my point that thieves are just average and not OP.

My thief stopped playing fractals at 36. In my opinion I was good with a thief and did the following.
-carried 2 daggers, 2 pistols, a sword, and a SB
-switched skills and traits when appropriate (SS for projectiles, SF when I end up having to pick up some zerker warrior for the 8th time in a fractal, Basilisk and devourer for mobile face stomping bosses, shadowstep to save allies, D/P skill 3 to teleport jade collosus to the party and face tank tentacles, using dagger storm to reflect projectiles, scorpion for pulling jellyfish and etc...)

As for saying I don't know how to play my 1st main (thief) is uncalled for :P, I know very well how to play a thief and don't resort to specifically besmirching other named players in my arguments.

With all this said and done, since switching to guardian for high level fractals there is just no comparison in effectiveness for fractals. Until they add mechanics like an enemy healer that needs to be bursted down to beat the boss (GW1) or fixing defiant stacks I don't see how a thief is effective in comparison.

Any player can be good with any class, but you have to compare the options. Comparing thieves to the other options, thieves are only superior in ganking stupid wandering players. Otherwise they are lackluster.

I can very well say rangers are great for farming COF P1 and in isolation a ranger very well may be great for farming COF P1, but when you compare it to something else like a warrior :P

As for SPVP, I am pretty sure there is some way of matching players with similar ability because as I rank up more I am seeing less useless players and more specified builds/strategies.

Edited by phantom reverie, 28 February 2013 - 11:34 PM.


#29 DarkOrange

DarkOrange

    Fahrar Cub

  • Members
  • 46 posts
  • Guild Tag:[HERO]
  • Server:Gandara

Posted 28 February 2013 - 11:32 PM

View Postphantom reverie, on 28 February 2013 - 11:02 PM, said:

Everything you said just proves my point that thieves are just average and not OP.

My thief stopped playing fractals at 36. In my opinion I was good with a thief and did the following.
-carried 2 daggers, 2 pistols, a sword, and a SB
-switched skills and traits when appropriate (SS for projectiles, SF when I end up having to pick up some zerker warrior for the 8th time in a fractal, Basilisk and devourer for mobile face stomping bosses, shadowstep to save allies, D/P skill 3 to teleport jade collosus to the party and face tank tentacles, using dagger storm to reflect projectiles, scorpion for pulling jellyfish and etc...)

As for saying I don't know how to play my 1st main (thief) is uncalled for :P, I know very well how to play a thief and don't resort to specifically besmirching other players in my arguments.

With all this said and done, since switching to guardian for high level fractals there is just no comparison in effectiveness for fractals. Until they add mechanics like an enemy healer that needs to be bursted down to beat the boss (GW1) or fixing defiant stacks I don't see how a thief is effective in comparison.

Any player can be good with any class, but you have to compare the options. Comparing thieves to the other options, thieves are only superior in ganking stupid wandering players. Otherwise they are lackluster.

I can very well say rangers are great for farming COF P1 and in isolation a ranger very well may be great for farming COF P1, but when you compare it to something else like a warrior

all very valid points :) but did you have fun playing your thief? for some people, loving playing a certain class can make up for the fact that they lack certain things.

I know my guardian brings more to the table in high level fractals, but they hasn't stopped me bouncing around fractals with my thief (yet) :D

#30 phantom reverie

phantom reverie

    Fahrar Cub

  • Members
  • 24 posts

Posted 28 February 2013 - 11:54 PM

I love my thief's playstyle, but I only play 1-2 hours a day (2XCOF P1+P2 and a fractal run).

I accept any class into my groups, but fractals is just 100X easier with at least one guardian. So I've taken it upon myself to ensure my groups always have a guardian. So I spent 40g and made a new lvl 80 guardian :P,

I mostly switched because I blew 400g on the mystic forge trying to get a spark for my thief, but thats kind of beside the point :P




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users