29 replies to this topic

[leongrado]

So this past weekend I've been farming some CoF (like everybody else) and while trying to find a group on gw2lfg I found that many people were looking for "4 zerker warrior one mesmer p1 speed clears". For now it seems like CoF as the only place where people are looking for profession specific team builds but I can see this trend potentially carrying over to other dungeons.

Obviously this was quite common in GW1with the dungeons and FoW and such but I'm pretty sure Anet was going for a "no profession discrimination" approach with GW2.

It's not a huge issue for me now because I can still find a CoF group without being a warrior or mesmer but I can definitely see this being a problem in the future if every dungeon or high-level content turns into this and I just didn't happen to have a geared level 80 ______ for the run.

What are your thoughts? Is this a good direction the game is going in? Was this inevitable? Can/should Anet do anything about this?

[Ritualist]

leongrado, on 04 March 2013 - 06:01 AM, said:

For now it seems like CoF as the only place where people are looking for profession specific team builds but I can see this trend potentially carrying over to other dungeons.

Why would people be doing other dungeons?

[dannywolt]

It's not a problem unless the profession-specific teams become the only way to run content. But as someone who has spent hours upon hours speed-running CoF, I can assure you that random pugs are as common as specific pugs currently.

The only way to prevent players from assembling teams ideal to specific content is to remove profession diversity entirely.

[Strawberry Nubcake]

Ritualist, on 04 March 2013 - 06:17 AM, said:

Why would people be doing other dungeons?

Because sometimes it's not about how much money we can stuff in our wallets in the least amount of time?  I do other dungeons because I think they are fun.

[Evans]

Strawberry Nubcake, on 04 March 2013 - 07:14 AM, said:

Because sometimes it's not about how much money we can stuff in our wallets in the least amount of time?  I do other dungeons because I think they are fun.

But that's irrelevant because the OP's observation only applies to one specific dungeon's speed runs, which clearly have that very goal.

I don't expect the problem to carry over. In fact I find the GW2 player base to have accepted all roles in all characters pretty well to the point that I've rarely seen profession discrimination. Might add that I don't do high performance runs, but I've never had trouble finding some casual dungeon team.

Edited by Evans, 04 March 2013 - 07:44 AM.

[RaoulDukeHST]

Ritualist, on 04 March 2013 - 06:17 AM, said:

Why would people be doing other dungeons?

Gee,i don't know,FUN maybe?
Yeah,i know,how strange that people play games to have fun,ridiculous idea!

[Symbiont]

i recently been doing more full zerker runs and i stopped for a moment and made a run where i accepted all professions, upon entering the dungeon the first guy left, then another followed and another.

it sure is a let down to see these pugs making me turn to full zerker runs again.

[Coren]

You can use pretty much any setup you want and make it through with few problems if people know their stuff. It's just faster to use zerk warriors and a mesmer, nothing wrong with that.

[Thaddeuz]

The 4 zergers warrior + messmer is only for the farming of path 1. This combination is perfect because you can burst down two bosses within a Time Wrap (well the first one yes, the last one almost) with this profession combination. People don't care about defense and skill because you can kill things fast enough that its irrelevant, only DPS count. People won't gonna search for Zerker warrior + Time Wrap in other dungeon because this combination is not as good with them. Place like TA, you need to skip to go the fastest possible and on that you better with a thief for stealth or guardian for stability.. In dungeon like CM, the dungeon you got from those cutpurse are high enough to kill a glass canon in a matter or second (its good if you have skilled glass canon, but in a pug you don't have this kind of information). Even CoF path 2, the majority of warrior zerker don't stay alive enough to help very much.

[El Duderino]

It is neither good nor bad; it is inevitable.

As this game progresses, people are going to find the best & most efficient ways to tackle content.

No matter how hard ANet tries, or how many people think that this is something that was an inherent problem with GW1 that GW2 fixed, it will always exist.

It is human nature to do things bigger, better and faster.

[Lunacy Polish]

I personally just find it really silly.  No kittens are given on my part.  I did CoF this last weekend with warrior Mesmer two thieves and a ranger just fine.  Oh no we took another 30 seconds damn it al my life is ruined now.   This all or nothing mentality for such a small part of the game is the classic bike shed problem.

[leongrado]

Symbiont, on 04 March 2013 - 01:20 PM, said:

i recently been doing more full zerker runs and i stopped for a moment and made a run where i accepted all professions, upon entering the dungeon the first guy left, then another followed and another.

it sure is a let down to see these pugs making me turn to full zerker runs again.

I think most of us can agree(at least in my experience) this is a pretty rare occurrence. Out of all the CoF runs I've done I've only had 1 or 2 runs where everybody ends up leaving because the team is incompetent. Most of the time even if the team isn't doing too well, people tend to carry through anyways and seem to be pretty pleasant at then end of the run.

Edited by leongrado, 04 March 2013 - 03:33 PM.

[Coren]

leongrado, on 04 March 2013 - 03:33 PM, said:

I think most of us can agree(at least in my experience) this is a pretty rare occurrence. Out of all the CoF runs I've done I've only had 1 or 2 runs where everybody ends up leaving because the team is incompetent. Most of the time even if the team isn't doing too well, people tend to carry through anyways and seem to be pretty pleasant at then end of the run.

Very true, and it's in these situations that gaming buddies are born:) because you faced adversity and actually finished something with odds stacked against you.

Know what I call that? Fun.

[matsif]

it's just the meta speed run teams for that instance that is propagated through people in the official and these forums.  Although they have a point in that warrior is the best sustained dps class in the game and much damage can be mitigated through omnom pies and dodging and positioning, speed run requires that someone knows the content well more than anything.  My usual guild team runs content with 1 guardian, 1 warrior, 1 mesmer, and 2 float characters who play just about anything, and we have done just as fast as the so-called "speed run" teams with 1 guardian, 1 warrior, 1 mesmer, 1 necro, and 1 engineer.

also, CoF isn't exactly UW from GW1 either.  When people start clearing Arah paths in 8 minutes with a specific build for the whole party that ruins the whole balance of the game (see: assassins and shadow form in gw1), let me know.  I fully expect CoF to get the next dungeon rework like AC got and the tears to be delicious.

Edited by matsif, 04 March 2013 - 04:12 PM.

[NerfHerder]

These types of builds do a good job of showcasing possibly OP profession mechanics and, on the flip side, underpowered/unbalanced professions. They also bring attention to content that is static, easy, and/or exploitable. When these are fixed, we have better balance and a more dynamic world. Definitely a good thing.

[Arich]

If you dont like what other people are looking for, start your own group.  That way you can control who is in it.

[Bloggi]

leongrado, on 04 March 2013 - 06:01 AM, said:

What are your thoughts? Is this a good direction the game is going in? Was this inevitable? Can/should Anet do anything about this?

Those are difficult questions to answer. It's controversial because it could easily turn into a discussion of what professions/ builds (including the gear and use of food etc) are perceived to be OP and likewise professions that are perceived to be underpowered. Then comes the calls for certain things to be buffed and some things to be nerfed. That may be the simple answer but it is not necessarily the right answer. What they could consider is implementing mechanics that make elements of 'support' useful, but that's way more difficult.

No, I don't think the game is headed in a good direction at this point but it was inevitable. Once people get the mechanics down pat, it's just a DPS race to bring mobs down as quickly as possible. I've watched videos of full DPS groups in dungeons and they make everything look so quick and easy. They take a couple of swings and everything is dead in seconds. The other issue is the capacity to sustain a prolonged fight. If we run a group with insufficient DPS, will we have sufficient damage mitigation to survive a longer fight? So in these cases damage is king.

As I've said before elsewhere, Anet was very successful in removing the 'trinity' from GW2. In so doing they have created a case for pretty much ONE breed of builds: the never-ending push for the highest DPS. Should Anet do anything about it? Depends on who we ask...the answer will differ according to who plays what. Some people with multiple toons will be open to running DPS or 'support' just by switching toons so they could be indifferent. Can they do anything about it? Maybe. I'm not a programmer, but as I said earlier, introducing mechanics to the game that make elements of 'support' more useful may even things up a bit.

On a fair number of occasions now I've had the pleasure of running with a group that doesn't do speed runs (and don't care what builds each person runs), does everything 'legit', and in some dungeons we kill absolutely everything including the silver mobs which I understand are supposed to be very challenging. It takes substantially longer than a speed run or one using exploits/ bugs but we don't run into any major issues. It's great fun and I'm more relaxed in these than in the speed runs, and we even have 5-10 minute breaks between runs. All good and healthy. Obviously some run the dungeons for the fun and the coin. Others just run it for the coin, nothing wrong with that, we only have limited hours in a day.

Edited by Bloggi, 04 March 2013 - 11:32 PM.

[Jentari]

I don't see Anet doing much to completely stop these types of runs.  They may rework the dungeon slowing these runs down and if they do then it is quite possible that a different type of speed group will pop up for another dungeon.  So in the long run there isn't much that can be done.  They can only adjust the characters skills/mechanics so much without damaging other aspects of the game so the only real way to stop speed runs is to re-work dungeons and if they rework them to much it is possible that they will cause a lot of groups to be unable to do dungeons so it is a slippery slope And one Anet will need to work carefully.

[Jump_N_Move]

They are neither good nor bad. The only time they are bad is if it enables content to be completed too quick/has negative economy effects.

Like @El Duderino said, People will always find a way to complete content faster.

[leongrado]

I don't know how hard it would be to implement but I feel that if Anet could somehow change the dungeons so balanced teams were the best way to go, this would no longer be and issue. Then again there's always the possibilty that people will still choose certain professions over another purly because one profession can fill the role of support or DPS better than another.

[Feathermoore]

leongrado, on 07 March 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

I don't know how hard it would be to implement but I feel that if Anet could somehow change the dungeons so balanced teams were the best way to go, this would no longer be and issue. Then again there's always the possibilty that people will still choose certain professions over another purly because one profession can fill the role of support or DPS better than another.

And if they make is so that balanced teams are required to make it through, we will be getting groups turning away people because they already have a member playing that class.

You can't avoid people theorycrafting and figuring out the most efficient way to do something if it gives them rewards. Designing an encounter in a way to prevent it is most likely just going to end up with some bland content that the people who want to do it for fun won't do either.

[Digilodger]

leongrado, on 04 March 2013 - 06:01 AM, said:

So this past weekend I've been farming some CoF (like everybody else) and while trying to find a group on gw2lfg I found that many people were looking for "4 zerker warrior one mesmer p1 speed clears". For now it seems like CoF as the only place where people are looking for profession specific team builds but I can see this trend potentially carrying over to other dungeons.

CoF path 1 is cake walk; that's why a team with excellent dps would be optimal. The fastest I've complete CoF path 1 was within 6 minutes, on my mesmer, in a team with 3 warriors and 2 mesmers, all in full  berserker gears.  THat wouldn't have been possible in a team of PUG with something like 2 guardians, 2 necros, and 1 ranger.

Of course, that's just CoF path 1. Bring "4 zerker wars & 1 mes" team to Fractals of the Mists levels 30+ and . . . heh, I guarantee a lot of wipes would happen, not to mention that the Volcanic Fractal's final boss would be impossible for such a team.

leongrado, on 04 March 2013 - 06:01 AM, said:

What are your thoughts? Is this a good direction the game is going in? Was this inevitable? Can/should Anet do anything about this?

ANET has already making their changes, I believe.  Recently they just changed AC . . . so much that even with my core group, we only able to speed clear path 1 within 10 mins. It takes us 15-20 mins to clear AC path 2 and 3 now, which didn't happen before.  

I also can't imagine doing path 3 with PUG any more, seeing as Warmaster Grast takes so long to pop up his shield and die so easily.  


And they promised that other dungeons are going to change, too.  Come to think of it, I wonder if any dungeon would change significantly this upcoming March update.

Edited by Digilodger, 07 March 2013 - 05:38 PM.

[leongrado]

I think the most intriguing thing about GW2 is that you really can't tell too much about a person just from looking at their profession. If you invite a guardian into the group, he could just as likely be a support tank as a pure DPS. I think this is why for the time being, people are ok with completely random team compositions for dungeons. I actually really like this because ,one, it makes finding a team easier and ,two, if you join a team you're expected to keep yourself alive because the team could possibly not have any support or tank.

That is why I personally dislike these profession and build specific team compositions.

[Kanyon]

CoF p1 is easy no matter what the build.  Why would you even need a prof spec team for it?

[matsif]

Kanyon, on 07 March 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

CoF p1 is easy no matter what the build.  Why would you even need a prof spec team for it?

cause people want it done in 8 minutes instead of 10.  why I'll never understand, but such as.

[Midnight_Tea]

El Duderino, on 04 March 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

It is neither good nor bad; it is inevitable.

As this game progresses, people are going to find the best & most efficient ways to tackle content.

No matter how hard ANet tries, or how many people think that this is something that was an inherent problem with GW1 that GW2 fixed, it will always exist.

It is human nature to do things bigger, better and faster.

Quoting because this person said it all.

Good or bad, it's in human nature to optimize. This is kind of why I think games in general should move away from binary victory-or-failure outcome combat-oriented design.

GW2 is a step in the right direction, though.

[Jump_N_Move]

Idk its pretty easy to push P1 times up to 15 min with a non-dps focused group. Sure that's still quick but when you consider that you could run it twice with a 4/1 or 3/2 war/mez team in that same time, that's pretty significant. Some people were claiming 5 runs to one omnom, but 4 is all I could ever manage due to load times and npc travel.


Plus the more dps oriented your group is the more lax each person can be individually on dodge and block timing. In 4/1 speed runs as the mes, I mainly just need to keep behind the boss in melee. I can soak and out heal the normal/aoe attacks. The second those melee get replaced with ranged character or support characters, it becomes a whole lot harder to stay in melee. Plus the ability to single shot out base level foes/adds, is WAY more useful to rez people than to actually stop and rez them.

[Coooturtle]

Good, for not pug groups. I *ing hate when I join a random pug group, and they are like "Oh, we only want Warriors because it takes 1 minute faster." Save that shit for pre-made groups.

[Guardian of the Light]

Honestly considering 95% of all casting calls for no specific profession, I think the profession discrimination is as low as it can go. Sure CoF path 1 speed-run clear groups will only ask for warriors and a mesmer but that's pretty much the only specific composition that exists atm.

[El Duderino]

Coooturtle, on 11 March 2013 - 12:17 AM, said:

Good, for not pug groups. I *ing hate when I join a random pug group, and they are like "Oh, we only want Warriors because it takes 1 minute faster." Save that shit for pre-made groups.

But they will spend 5 minutes waiting for a warrior. Go figure lol.