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Powermancer - Glass Cannon Build


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#1 takarazuka

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 03:50 PM

Updates:
8/29/2013 - BIG UPDATE!! Lots of changes.
3/19/2013 - updated build and gear sheets. added ascended items
3/13/2013 - updated traits section and buildcraft - Added alternative build section
3/11/2013 - updated gear sheet
3/7/2013 - New trait spec uploaded after testing last night.  Updated text.  Slowly going to turn this in to a guide as I continue working with the spec and learning it.

THE BUILD


30/25/0/0/15
http://intothemists....;9;9;9;9;0VR-6C

Trait Lines and Choices
Spoiler


STATS AND GEAR

Berserker gear and lots of it.  You want to maximize your power, precision, and critical.  Vitality and Toughness are not a factor here and really shouldn't be valued on gear.  Your goal is to kill the enemy before they kill you and doing this as fast as possible.  If you want actual numbers, the build calculator at the top  has the best gear available for the build added in to it.  You can switch gear around to what you have or have access to if you want to see what your numbers are going to be.



Gear Specifics
Spoiler

Edited by takarazuka, 30 August 2013 - 04:03 PM.

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#2 snethss

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 04:18 AM

I've run Nemesis's  build and learned quite a bit about power necro.  I play mostly skirmish wvw and fractals.

1. The survivability is not that bad. I typically stick Vit for thieves, but I didn't miss it that much.
2  very viable in rush Pvegroups.
3. Absolute crap aoe.
4. Not bad PvP with some minor swaps. Not competitive tho.


It's definitely worth playing. You get a better appreciation for axe and focus. Leads into the hybrid dps build very well. Also, most of the gear is pretty cheap.

Edited by snethss, 07 March 2013 - 04:18 AM.


#3 Thaddeuz

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 03:31 PM

At the base, a Powermancer Necro is shit. There is two reason why Nemesis' Build work : 1) Huge and Fast stacking of Vulnerability and 2) Dearth Shroud auto-attack.

In your build you stick with the Vulnerability part of his build. But you don't have a lot of time in Dearth Shroud since you don't invest a lot in Soul Reaping and this gonna limit you DPS a lot.

I made myself a modification a small modification of Nemesis Build for my Necro Powermancer.
http://www.gw2build.....0.30.20.0.0.20

I wanted more Precision for a more constant DPS. I didn't mind losing Vampiric Precision since this is not the best trait. But i mind losing Near to Dearth with the huge 50% faster recharge of my death shroud. But with Spectral Attunement, each of my spectral skill  (i use 3) give me life force, limiting my lost from Near to Death. But this trait is really awesome since he also give me more time on my spectral skill. It give me 2 second on my spectal Armor with is ok, but also giving me 7 more second of my spectral wall. In combination with spectral Mastery it mean that i have a spectral wall up half the time. The also took the trait Reaper's Precision for more Life Force generation. All together, I my change don't modified the time i need to replenish my Dearth Shroud from the original build, but i gain a boost of my Spectral Wall. I also sacrifice 10% critical damage for almost 10% critical chance with is huge for this build since it was his weakness. I prefer hitting a big less stronger, but more constantly.

#4 takarazuka

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 03:41 PM

I redid the build last night and tested it prior to posting and it is nearly identical to yours Thaddeuz lol.  I decided that Blood Magic wasn't worth the loss of skills needed from Soul Reaping to make it viable.  

http://intothemists....R1;3JF04JF045Bm

The differences in our build are: I agree with you that I didn't like how he went 30 Spite and then 30 Soul Reaping.... higher crit damage modifier but he had very low overall crit.  To me, if you are going to try and do a powermancer build you HAVE to invest something in to Curses for precision.  Our attacks overall don't do much damage and you need that crit chance/crit damage to make a difference.  Just stacking power isn't going to do it.  You may see big numbers on occasion but it isn't consistent enough.

I have to get accustomed to the axe still.... I kept trying to play it like dagger and auto attack (exactly what I was saying to avoid haha).  Going to take a little getting used to, but I it was very potent when I was working with it.  The hits from Life Blast in DS were amazing and all the vulnerability/might stacks going on really bumped things up.

Edited by takarazuka, 07 March 2013 - 08:21 PM.

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#5 chullster

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 05:43 PM

View Postsnethss, on 07 March 2013 - 04:18 AM, said:

I've run Nemesis's  build...

Had a quick look in the pve section and can't see a build made by someone with that name, can you link it please?

#6 takarazuka

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 06:01 PM

He is mostly on the official ANet forums... here is the video to his 30/0/0/10/30 build.  

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#7 Thaddeuz

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 06:39 PM

View Postchullster, on 07 March 2013 - 05:43 PM, said:

Had a quick look in the pve section and can't see a build made by someone with that name, can you link it please?

His name in GW2 is nemesis, but you can see his youtube channel under the name Iamoneandiamlegion here : http://www.youtube.c...n?feature=watch

In my opinion he is the most reliable source of information on Necromancer right now. He explain not only the build he present but why he choice all of his weapons, gear and trait. Always give good information and he's obviously a fan of the Necromancer.

View Posttakarazuka, on 07 March 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:

I redid the build last night and tested it prior to posting and it is nearly identical to yours Thaddeuz lol.  I decided that Blood Magic wasn't worth the loss of skills needed from Soul Reaping to make it viable.  

http://intothemists....R1;3JF04JF045Bm

Yup these trait make more sense for you with the utilities you use. I based my choice on my 3 Spectral Skill which obviously don't fit your way of playing ;) . But just a few suggestion which you may of may not like to try.

- You don't create life force really fast. Are you sure you would not be better with Vital Persistence over Path of Midnight? If you don't create life force fast, at least you gonna be able to stay longer in Dearth Shroud, while Vital Persistence only give you 6 less second of cool down on Life Transfer. For me Vital Persistence is not worth it since we focus a lot of trait to increase the damage done by Life Blast. But sure, this trait help with the general lack of AoE from this build.

- Spiteful Spirit is awesome for your OMG Death Shroud. Your in a harsh situation and you pop your death Shroud with retaliation this is just great, but mainly in PvP. I always find that retaliation (like Confusion) are not that great in a PvE situation since mobs don't hit you really fast. Sure it still great when you are in the middle of a pack of mobs, but would Spiteful Talisman be better for you? Reaper's Touch give a lot of vulnerability and regen to allies, while Spinal Shivers is really hard hitting against mobs with a lot of boons aka some Boss or Champion (have 250% bonus on your damage if you remove 3 boons).

Edited by Thaddeuz, 07 March 2013 - 06:40 PM.


#8 takarazuka

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 06:53 PM

View PostThaddeuz, on 07 March 2013 - 06:39 PM, said:

- You don't create life force really fast. Are you sure you would not be better with Vital Persistence over Path of Midnight? If you don't create life force fast, at least you gonna be able to stay longer in Dearth Shroud, while Vital Persistence only give you 6 less second of cool down on Life Transfer. For me Vital Persistence is not worth it since we focus a lot of trait to increase the damage done by Life Blast. But sure, this trait help with the general lack of AoE from this build.

I had considered it, but I want to play around more with Might durations and see if it is beneficial to stay in Death Shroud longer or just keep popping in and out to maintain Might with BiP and use Ghastly Claws as often as possible for life force regen.  It is a possibility though...

View PostThaddeuz, on 07 March 2013 - 06:39 PM, said:

- Spiteful Spirit is awesome for your OMG Death Shroud. Your in a harsh situation and you pop your death Shroud with retaliation this is just great, but mainly in PvP. I always find that retaliation (like Confusion) are not that great in a PvE situation since mobs don't hit you really fast. Sure it still great when you are in the middle of a pack of mobs, but would Spiteful Talisman be better for you? Reaper's Touch give a lot of vulnerability and regen to allies, while Spinal Shivers is really hard hitting against mobs with a lot of boons aka some Boss or Champion (have 250% bonus on your damage if you remove 3 boons).

I was actually sitting here thinking about that.... I was thinking back to the retaliation procs last night and noticing it wasn't helping all that much.  I already have Reaper's Might since I am in Death Shroud a lot and, well yea obvious choice heh.  So the choice is now between Chill of Death or Spiteful Talisman.  The cooldown redux on ST is nice and would let me use my lovely Reaper's Touch to maintain x4 vulnerability stacks.  Chill of Death.... eh yea I mean it is a good trait, but in PVE not so much.  5s of chill is nice for kiting, but mobs rarely have boons to remove.  I do not do much PVP so it is barely useful for me.  I already have it available on my focus to use if needed and the cooldown isn't too long.

I want to throw it on a boss a few times and see what the numbers are for it... have to see tonight.

Edited by takarazuka, 07 March 2013 - 06:54 PM.

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#9 chullster

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 09:52 AM

thanks to you both

#10 takarazuka

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 05:16 PM

I started weapon swapping with this build last night.... dagger/warhorn and axe/focus.  Use the axe/focus to apply more vulnerability -> Ghastly Claws -> back to Dagger/Warhorn for more burst and then switch back. Rinse/Repeat.  It was definitely interesting and I may incorporate it.

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#11 takarazuka

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 05:16 PM

I discovered BuildCraft and omg love it... Also got some good info from talking to people on the official forums.  I am working on getting this thread fully "guided" out and will have it done soon.  Ran a lot of dungeons this weekend in this build and was chewing through mobs.  Glass cannon truly sums it up though as you have to play smart since you have next to no survivability.

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#12 Phenn

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 06:40 PM

So question:

I've been running the 30/20/0/0/20 version of this build and enjoying it so far. But with the potential of DS still hovering on the edges of my reach, I've been messing around with a couple of ideas for modifying Nemesis' build.

I want to go a full 30 in the DS tree, to pick up the crit-damage bonuses, and the bonuses to DS skills/drain/recharge, etc. The Spite tree is a no-brainer, or at least I think it is.

My real quandary is what to do with the last ten points. The Curses tree has that oh-so-tempting Master level minor trait granting 5 seconds of fury on DS.

So the question: Is it worth losing Spite XII to gain the fury boost, especially if I'm planning on doing most of my damage while in DS?

The build would looks something like 25/15/0/0/30. I could take it a step further and go 20/20/0/0/30 to pick up Master of Corruption for might stacks, or Spectral Attunement.

Thoughts?

#13 takarazuka

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 07:04 PM

Honestly, to achieve what you want you might want to look at 30/15/0/0/25 instead.  It is something I am also playing around with to maximize damage.  You are losing the 50% faster DS recharge you get with 30 DS, but gaining the Strength of Undeath that boosts your damage another 5% if above 50% LF.  This is boosting my effective power by over 200 (while having Axe Training) while only loosing ~2% crit chance and gaining 5% more critical damage.

I don't think going an extra 5 points in to Death Shroud is going to make it shine like a beacon of amazing light.  You gain access to stability and the 50% faster recharge on DS.  While great traits, not having them will not  change the overall feel of Death Shroud other than going in to it more often, but then you have less time to gain back lost life force and try to maintain >50% life force.  Since axe only has Ghastly Claws for LF regen this isn't as easy and you may have DS sitting there being wasted since it is up every 5s.

As far as dropping points in Spite, retaining either Close to Death or Axe Training is too essential to an axe build... the axe's damage is low to begin with and that 15% flat boost or 20% near to death boost really cannot be given up.  Master of Corruption is only really useful in Might stacking builds... which you need to go death magic to even be effective with for boon duration.  Spectral Mastery? The only spectral skill I find useful at all is Spectral Wall.. I use it in coordinated dungeon groups since they will actually stand behind the stupid thing.  Spectral Armor is okay, but you get it free with Soul Reaping and it takes up valuable utility slots.  Grasp and Walk I don't even use in PVE...

Edited by takarazuka, 12 March 2013 - 07:11 PM.

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#14 Thaddeuz

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 07:12 PM

View Posttakarazuka, on 12 March 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:

Honestly, to achieve what you want you might want to look at 30/15/0/0/25 instead.

I don't know. I said that he want to do most of his DPS from his DS. With this setup he don't have the 50% faster DS recharge and he don't have spectral attunement neither. Which mean that he won't gonna have DS up a lot. I think for him, he would be better with 30/10/0/0/30 or 30/20/0/0/30. The 30pts in spite is hard to change since the last trait is so powerful DPS wise. But if you want to keep your DS up enough time to use it you either need 50% faster recharge or Spectral Attunement. They are both good, so take your choice.

#15 Phenn

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 07:13 PM

View Posttakarazuka, on 12 March 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:

Honestly, to achieve what you want you might want to look at 30/15/0/0/25 instead.  It is something I am also playing around with to maximize damage.  You are losing the 50% faster DS recharge you get with 30 DS, but gaining the Strength of Undeath that boosts your damage another 5% if above 50% LF.  This is boosting my effective power by over 200 (while having Axe Training) while only loosing ~2% crit chance and gaining 5% more critical damage.

I don't think going an extra 5 points in to Death Shroud is going to make it shine like a beacon of amazing light.  You gain access to stability and the 50% faster recharge on DS.  While great traits, not having them will not  change the overall feel of Death Shroud other than going in to it more often, but then you have less time to gain back lost life force and try to maintain >50% life force.  Since axe only has Ghastly Claws for LF regen this isn't as easy and you may have DS sitting there being wasted since it is up every 5s.

As far as dropping points in Spite, retaining either Close to Death or Axe Training is too essential to an axe build... the axe's damage is low to begin with and that 15% flat boost or 20% near to death boost really cannot be given up.  Master of Corruption is only really useful in Might stacking builds... which you need to go death magic to even be effective with for boon duration.  Spectral Mastery? The only spectral skill I find useful at all is Spectral Wall.. I use it in coordinated dungeon groups since they will actually stand behind the stupid thing.  Spectral Armor is okay, but you get it free with Soul Reaping and it takes up valuable utility slots.  Grasp and Walk I don't even use in PVE...

That's kinda what I was thinking after posting the above question. I'll have to give a try. The only reason I'd take Grasp is to guarantee that the mob crosses the Wall, or for a quick gain of LF. I'll keep messing with it to see how it works together.

#16 takarazuka

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 07:24 PM

View PostThaddeuz, on 12 March 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

I don't know. I said that he want to do most of his DPS from his DS. With this setup he don't have the 50% faster DS recharge and he don't have spectral attunement neither. Which mean that he won't gonna have DS up a lot. I think for him, he would be better with 30/10/0/0/30 or 30/20/0/0/30. The 30pts in spite is hard to change since the last trait is so powerful DPS wise. But if you want to keep your DS up enough time to use it you either need 50% faster recharge or Spectral Attunement. They are both good, so take your choice.

Yes, I did cover that... you wouldn't have the 50% faster Death Shroud but you have to look at your abilities, how quickly you can regen Life Force while maintaining >50% to keep the bonus from Strength of Death, and how going Spectral Mastery is going to effect you.  What spectral skills (wall, grasp, walk, or armor) are going to use and what is it going to replace?  Well of Suffering does a lot of damage and stacks vulnerability.  Blood is Power grants 10 stacks of Might which is far too important to replace.  So you have your third utility slot.... We are an axe build here so Grasp kind of doesn't make sense and is on a 30s cooldown.  Wall maybe... I could argue in favor of that, but it is on a 40s cooldown so using it as a LF generator is extremely limited.  Armor has a 90s cooldown so that is completely useless as a LF generator.  Walk is also on a long cooldown.  Okay so you you say grab Spectral Mastery to reduce those cooldowns... but then you lose traits that make Death Shroud abilities and DS useful... see what kind of loop we get in to?

Edited by takarazuka, 12 March 2013 - 07:27 PM.

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#17 Phenn

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 07:36 PM

View Posttakarazuka, on 12 March 2013 - 07:24 PM, said:

Okay so you you say grab Spectral Mastery to reduce those cooldowns... but then you lose traits that make Death Shroud abilities and DS useful... see what kind of loop we get in to?

This is precisely the conundrum in which I found myself working on the build. It's hard to synergize the heavy-hitting nature of the Spite tree, the need for consistent crits, the need for LF generation, and the need to buff DS attacks. Especially if you're like me without the cash to spring for the on-swap sigils which make Might stacking doable.

If I skip spectral attunement entirely, I can go the route of on-crit LF generation, and just hope I can keep enough coming in to compensate for the massive reliance on Life Blast for damage.

#18 takarazuka

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 07:42 PM

I think you have to make a choice... do you want to go a DS-centric build that uses your weapons/abilities as a complement OR do you want to go a direct damage build that uses DS as a complement.  The build here is more about using DS as a complement, but not as the primary offensive tool.  If you want to go a DS build, I think dagger MH is going to be a better choice since it generates life force a lot faster.  I will play around with a buildcraft setup and all soon and PM it to you... we can toy around on it and maybe start a new thread with a DS build.  I am wanting to do that anyways and also do a minion build soon.... talking to Bas and Bhawb on the main forums is making me itch to give minions a try after 6 months...

Edited by takarazuka, 12 March 2013 - 07:42 PM.

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#19 xaragon

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 11:44 AM

It displays as you having 2 axes to me which, correct me if I'm wrong you cannot do in pvp as they share the same cool down( might be different for pve).

One thing that often gets overlooked is 25 in curses 2% more damage per condition, based on your build it says you have access to 6 different conditions so that would be a 12% increase which technicaly assuming you have all those conditions on is a better talent then closer to death. Not to mention you are talking pve which means more then likely you will have much more then 6 conditions on.

The major problem I have with ds is that I feel I can do more damage in the same amount of time when I'm not in it( in my build at least) this is majorly due to the slow firing 1 ability.

So for me that makes it a complimentary utility I guess I'm just not sold on it doing more damage then options outside of it. Also i feel that any power build that wants to do a lot of damage or build life force quickly has to have dagger it just does too much damage but I'm unsure whether or not you are wanting to stay at a distance or not.

I am interested in how you find the might building like at what stacks you can maintain it, I have avoided focusing on it in the past as it seems to inconsistent and once have used different options let me know how you go good luck.

#20 Thaddeuz

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 01:04 PM

The powermancer Necro can really be a pain in the ass. Too many trait choice that all look so good :P.

View Posttakarazuka, on 12 March 2013 - 07:42 PM, said:

I think you have to make a choice... do you want to go a DS-centric build that uses your weapons/abilities as a complement OR do you want to go a direct damage build that uses DS as a complement.

The more i look at it, the more I agree with that. Too many choice in the trait too make them both good in the same build.

#21 takarazuka

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 03:49 PM

View Postxaragon, on 13 March 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

It displays as you having 2 axes to me which, correct me if I'm wrong you cannot do in pvp as they share the same cool down( might be different for pve).

One thing that often gets overlooked is 25 in curses 2% more damage per condition, based on your build it says you have access to 6 different conditions so that would be a 12% increase which technicaly assuming you have all those conditions on is a better talent then closer to death. Not to mention you are talking pve which means more then likely you will have much more then 6 conditions on.

The major problem I have with ds is that I feel I can do more damage in the same amount of time when I'm not in it( in my build at least) this is majorly due to the slow firing 1 ability.

So for me that makes it a complimentary utility I guess I'm just not sold on it doing more damage then options outside of it. Also i feel that any power build that wants to do a lot of damage or build life force quickly has to have dagger it just does too much damage but I'm unsure whether or not you are wanting to stay at a distance or not.

I am interested in how you find the might building like at what stacks you can maintain it, I have avoided focusing on it in the past as it seems to inconsistent and once have used different options let me know how you go good luck.

Okay I fixed the build since you are the second person to mention the secondary weapon set not showing correctly. :D   I have the secondary set to staff, but that is not set in stone.  I will sometime put dagger/focus as the secondary if melee is an option.  I then swap between axe and dagger on cooldowns (mostly Ghastly Claws).  If the fight is not melee friendly, then I stay with staff and use it for utility.

I have also updated the build itself and changed the utilities and traits.  I am moving towards using spectral wall a lot more. It has a 900 range so you can throw it down and then pull with spinal shivers to apply a chill and get them to pass through the wall and apply vulnerability.  You can also run through it to gain protection... rinse and repeat.  I moved away from using traited Life Blast.  The ability is just too slow and I am not happy with how it works right now.  Might stacking is also something not feasible with this build since we do not focus on boon duration to make Blood is Power last longer.  BiP is still used, but not going to be a focus of trying to get maximum uptime of might.

As far as conditions.... I have looked at that with Target the Weak.  It mostly comes down to how many conditions will consistently be up on the target.  You can guarantee Vulnerability and Bleed at all times... our only blind would come from a well with a lengthy cooldown even traited so it is not consistent enough.  Same goes for Chilled from Spinal Shivers or Grasp.  So on our own we can guarantee a 4% increase in damage.  In a group, you are tossing the coin really as to what others might have up at all times besides those two.  So, while Target the Weak IS feasible, you will have more consistent damage buff from Strength of the Undead since we can manage that ourselves and maintain it at all times. Sure, there is the potential for more damage from TtW, but if someone dies or isn't putting up poisons/burn/blind or whatever, then you are missing out on that.

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#22 xaragon

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 04:43 PM

View Posttakarazuka, on 13 March 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:



Okay I fixed the build since you are the second person to mention the secondary weapon set not showing correctly. :D   I have the secondary set to staff, but that is not set in stone.  I will sometime put dagger/focus as the secondary if melee is an option.  I then swap between axe and dagger on cooldowns (mostly Ghastly Claws).  If the fight is not melee friendly, then I stay with staff and use it for utility.

I have also updated the build itself and changed the utilities and traits.  I am moving towards using spectral wall a lot more. It has a 900 range so you can throw it down and then pull with spinal shivers to apply a chill and get them to pass through the wall and apply vulnerability.  You can also run through it to gain protection... rinse and repeat.  I moved away from using traited Life Blast.  The ability is just too slow and I am not happy with how it works right now.  Might stacking is also something not feasible with this build since we do not focus on boon duration to make Blood is Power last longer.  BiP is still used, but not going to be a focus of trying to get maximum uptime of might.

As far as conditions.... I have looked at that with Target the Weak.  It mostly comes down to how many conditions will consistently be up on the target.  You can guarantee Vulnerability and Bleed at all times... our only blind would come from a well with a lengthy cooldown even traited so it is not consistent enough.  Same goes for Chilled from Spinal Shivers or Grasp.  So on our own we can guarantee a 4% increase in damage.  In a group, you are tossing the coin really as to what others might have up at all times besides those two.  So, while Target the Weak IS feasible, you will have more consistent damage buff from Strength of the Undead since we can manage that ourselves and maintain it at all times. Sure, there is the potential for more damage from TtW, but if someone dies or isn't putting up poisons/burn/blind or whatever, then you are missing out on that.

It's hard for me to comment on pve because I pretty much just pvp, in saying that I have to disagree. if you are only able to guarantee a 4% increase personally I still think that is far superior to a 5% increase, basically because it has a much higher ceiling you may as you said be only able to maintain 2 conditions constantly, but in using staff as well as axe you at times(not always) have acces to bleeding, vulnerability, poison weakness chill and cripple.

So potentially you have as I said at times just yourself up to 6 condis and upto a 12% increase which personally is a much better option then a 1% increase all the time.

Also if you are fighting a boss in a party you may have access to 11 different conditions which could net up to a 22% increase so in my mind there is no choice really.



#23 takarazuka

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 04:52 PM

View Postxaragon, on 13 March 2013 - 04:43 PM, said:

It's hard for me to comment on pve because I pretty much just pvp, in saying that I have to disagree. if you are only able to guarantee a 4% increase personally I still think that is far superior to a 5% increase, basically because it has a much higher ceiling you may as you said be only able to maintain 2 conditions constantly, but in using staff as well as axe you at times(not always) have acces to bleeding, vulnerability, poison weakness chill and cripple.

So potentially you have as I said at times just yourself up to 6 condis and upto a 12% increase which personally is a much better option then a 1% increase all the time.

Also if you are fighting a boss in a party you may have access to 11 different conditions which could net up to a 22% increase so in my mind there is no choice really.

The axe applies Vulnerability (1 condition) and the staff applies bleed (1 condition).... I understand and SAID that you DO have the possibility of more conditions such as cripple and chill.  However, the consistency of them being up becomes burst damage dependent on, mostly, other players.  I prefer consistency to random burst potential, but that's not to say it isn't a good build to do.  If you believe you will be able to maintain higher damage buff with a variety of conditions applied by yourself and teammates, then by all means go 30/25/0/0/15.  I have no argument against it being a good build.  What I am trying to do is give a self-sufficient setup that does not rely on others.

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#24 Phenn

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 05:32 PM

So after doing some testing yesterday, I came to the conclusion (admittedly, the same conclusion that many have already reached) that it's hard to build specifically for DS. Don't get me wrong, you definitely can. But in any build, the value of Life Blast drops off five-seconds into DS. You lose fury, your vulnerability stacks start dropping off, and LF drains too fast to make it worthwhile. The problem (again, as others have said) lies in the slow cast-time for Life Blast.

I'm sticking with the 30/15/0/0/25 build, but utilizing Life Blast as a quick finisher--you can get off at least two shots before fury depletes, and it hits like a truck with Spite XII, vulnerability, etc. All that to say I think I'm back at the point you identified here:

View Posttakarazuka, on 12 March 2013 - 07:42 PM, said:

I think you have to make a choice... do you want to go a DS-centric build that uses your weapons/abilities as a complement OR do you want to go a direct damage build that uses DS as a complement.  The build here is more about using DS as a complement, but not as the primary offensive tool.

However, the value of this build is precisely the flexibility of a DS-friendly combat style. A decent portion of its damage comes from the first couple of Life Blasts, and the faster cooldowns on the utilities makes moving in and out of melee range far more feasible for our otherwise-mobility-challenged class.

One final observation I had yesterday revolves around the idea of using DS as an panic button. To maximize the damage of this build, you really can't afford to absorb too much damage in DS, and you can't stay in it waiting for a heal to recharge. Because we have a 5% damage bonus, and because Life Blast is only effective at >50% LF, it really cripples this build to exhaust the LF bar.

I apologize if this is all obvious to everyone else--I'm just working through the theory of playing the build for myself.

#25 xaragon

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 05:44 PM

View Posttakarazuka, on 13 March 2013 - 04:52 PM, said:



The axe applies Vulnerability (1 condition) and the staff applies bleed (1 condition).... I understand and SAID that you DO have the possibility of more conditions such as cripple and chill.  However, the consistency of them being up becomes burst damage dependent on, mostly, other players.  I prefer consistency to random burst potential, but that's not to say it isn't a good build to do.  If you believe you will be able to maintain higher damage buff with a variety of conditions applied by yourself and teammates, then by all means go 30/25/0/0/15.  I have no argument against it being a good build.  What I am trying to do is give a self-sufficient setup that does not rely on others.

Not trying to argue with you and not having a go at your build, it seems you have moved away from trying the might stacking and headed in another direction which is all fine and good just trying to point out a 1% bonus all the time( which technically it isnt as its over 50%) is no where close to what you could gain from all the conditions from yourself and or team mates.

But all good each to their own.



#26 takarazuka

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 05:47 PM

I added in an alternative build section and put in the 30/25/0/0/15 build being discussed.  I wanted it to be clear that I DO think it is a very viable alternative if you can maintain at least 4 conditions on the target to get an 8% boost in damage or higher depending on party composition and conditions being applied.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with going that route if you know that you will gain more benefit from using it.

View Postxaragon, on 13 March 2013 - 05:44 PM, said:

Not trying to argue with you and not having a go at your build, it seems you have moved away from trying the might stacking and headed in another direction which is all fine and good just trying to point out a 1% bonus all the time( which technically it isnt as its over 50%) is no where close to what you could gain from all the conditions from yourself and or team mates.

But all good each to their own.

See what I just wrote.  I think it got a bit misconstrued about how I felt about Target the Weak so I wanted to clear it up.  The 5% bonus to damage from Strength of Undeath is good if you feel unsure about how consistent you will be able to maintain MORE than that with Target the Weak.  If you know you can maintain 8% or more damage boost from conditions... then by all means do 25 Curses and enjoy the damage!!

And yes, I am moving away from Might stacking.  Might stacking builds need to have Death Magic trait line bonuses to boon duration to make them work.  It is just not possible in a glass cannon build like this one.  There are some threads/discussions about might stacking though that you could check out and see about creating something similar.

Edited by takarazuka, 13 March 2013 - 05:51 PM.

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#27 Phenn

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 03:34 PM

Hey Taka, what's the motivation behind the build change? Did you decide that Target the Weak was worth the loss of DS buffs? I've been playing with the 30/15/0/0/25 format and enjoying it thoroughly. It's definitely akin to a D/D Ele when it comes to weapon swaps, changing combat ranges, and managing CD's appropriately.

One thing I have noticed is that Spite II doesn't affect Reaper's Touch--which really, really sucks. Same CD and same range as when untraited.

Looking forward to your updates.

#28 takarazuka

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 03:49 PM

One word... scaling.  Only loosing 10 points in Death Shroud means 1 Major trait... and the only ones that were decent for the build were Path of Midnight and Master of Terror (factoring in taking on Terror itself from Curses).  Trying to maintain above 50% Life Force is a real challenge sometimes and it is only a 5% damage buff.  Target the Weak allows for, up to, 22% damage increase and we can easily maintain a 6% increase on our own.  Once you get in a group setting you are looking at 6-11 conditions at once for a massive increase in sustainable damage.  You just cannot get this from Strength of Undeath and the loss of one major trait and an inconsistent uptime of a 5% damage buff really started to change my mind on 25 Curses.

You still have to manage cooldowns and weapon swap when needed for support (staff skills) or higher damage (dagger).  The additional conditions you gain from staff make it even more useful for weapon swapping now with Target the Weak.  

Spite II bug has been documented on the official forums, but no ETA on a fix for it.  

I have been continuing to refine some things with necros as time goes on and looking to the future.  ANet is wanting to really move us towards more boon/condition manipulation so I am playing around more with Corrupt Boon, Epidemic, and Well of Corruption.  This adds both support to our gameplay and increases our damage with Target the Weak.  Gives us more versatility and I am hoping they do more to make the manipulation a core part of necros overall.

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#29 Ojimaru

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 02:11 AM

View Posttakarazuka, on 19 March 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

One word... scaling.  Only loosing 10 points in Death Shroud means 1 Major trait... and the only ones that were decent for the build were Path of Midnight and Master of Terror (factoring in taking on Terror itself from Curses).  Trying to maintain above 50% Life Force is a real challenge sometimes and it is only a 5% damage buff.  Target the Weak allows for, up to, 22% damage increase and we can easily maintain a 6% increase on our own.  Once you get in a group setting you are looking at 6-11 conditions at once for a massive increase in sustainable damage.  You just cannot get this from Strength of Undeath and the loss of one major trait and an inconsistent uptime of a 5% damage buff really started to change my mind on 25 Curses.
You're not painting the full picture. When switching those 10 points from Soul Reaping to Curses, speaking strictly about damage, you are trading off

* 10% Critical Damage
* 5% damage from Strength of Undeath
* Unknown DPS increase from Path of Midnight and Vital Persistence

for

* approx. 4.7% Crit Chance
* 100 Condition Damage (approx. 5-10 DPS from Barbed Precision)
* average 10% bonus damage from Target the Weak from 5 Conditions

In regards to Death Shroud, I find Life Blast invaluable in many situations when mobs are grouped up, via LOS or Into the Void, since Necrotic Grasp only hits for 1k and Putrid Mark is on a long CD. Also, if you start Life Transfer before forced out of Death Shroud, the channel and damage will still continue.

#30 takarazuka

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 03:00 AM

View PostOjimaru, on 20 March 2013 - 02:11 AM, said:

You're not painting the full picture. When switching those 10 points from Soul Reaping to Curses, speaking strictly about damage, you are trading off

* 10% Critical Damage
* 5% damage from Strength of Undeath
* Unknown DPS increase from Path of Midnight and Vital Persistence

for

* approx. 4.7% Crit Chance
* 100 Condition Damage (approx. 5-10 DPS from Barbed Precision)
* average 10% bonus damage from Target the Weak from 5 Conditions


He asked why I went that way.... scaling on Target the Weak is the reason.  I am fully aware of what I am dropping and it is obvious what you lose when you move the 10 points.  I do not view Path of Midnight and Vital Persistence as DPS increases.  The only substantially damaging ability effected by it is Life Transfer putting it to 34s cooldown instead of 40s.  That is too long a period of time to really factor in to be a damage boost regardless since it hits fairly low overall.  I still use it in AOE situations, of course, since that is where it is strongest.

I am going to assume you see VP as a dps increase since it allows you to spam Life Blast more.  With the buff to Ghastly Claws, there is no reason to stay in DS with this build and spam Life Blast beyond the time Fury is up.  Jump in DS, hit LB until Fury falls off, LT if it is useful, then drop out and hit Ghastly Claws since it will be off cooldown.  You will then have a few seconds to reapply wells, Blood is Power (if being used), Reaper's Touch, then jump back in DS... rinse repeat.  I don't see any reason to be in DS beyond those few seconds to use LB with Fury.  I tried it the way you are talking about and maintaining >50% Life Force is very difficult even with VP when you are trying to jump in and out to take advantage of Fury every DS cooldown.  You don't have much time to regain Life Force if needed and if you use Life Transfer on single target then THAT is a dps loss overall and you waste your Fury uptime.

10% critical damage... okay yes this is a loss, but if you maintain a 10-15% increase from Target the Weak (very easy to do in a group) then you make up for that.  The high possibility of not maintaining Strength of Undeath makes it hard to factor in.  Axe/focus setup is not the best for trying to do a DS heavy build with the low Life Force generation so that adds another detractor to going so deep in to Soul Reaping.

View PostOjimaru, on 20 March 2013 - 02:11 AM, said:

In regards to Death Shroud, I find Life Blast invaluable in many situations when mobs are grouped up, via LOS or Into the Void, since Necrotic Grasp only hits for 1k and Putrid Mark is on a long CD. Also, if you start Life Transfer before forced out of Death Shroud, the channel and damage will still continue.

Life Blast only pierces when you use the major trait Unyielding Blast, so if you pick that one up then you would lose either POM or Vital Persistence that you see as a DPS increase overall.

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