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Spreadsheet Wars.


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#1 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 09:28 AM

With the change in dailies some of us started modifying the way we play the game: our usual playstyle could not satisfy the requirements posed by the daily, so we started visiting, or just parking our characters in, select locations. Those locations allowed to get the daily actually done or just get the daily done faster.
The addition of boss-chests made this situation even worse - bosses are even more limited in the locations they spawn in and their rewards are even better than what a lot of us can expect to see from the game, especially those of us that have a fairly limited playtime.

So, what I am noticing is that I simply moved my characters around into select locations (and by select locations I mean Ele, Maw and AC), and once I check the daily to see what needs to be ground that day, I decide which boss (and its surrounding area) I will farm. The daily + the chests just provide rewards that I can not hope to match by normal play, so it absolutely makes more sense to just continuously farm the same areas over and over again. And with downscalling in place, it's really not a problem if I never leave those areas.
Add waypoint fees and it doesn't even make sense to waste resources (time/gold) by travelling around - parking one's characters into the right locations currently seems to be the optimal playstyle for a certain segment of the population. You just consult the game's various spreadsheets and off to the daily grind!
And if I have some extra time to spare, I'll just take more characters to grind the chests!


Anyone else finding themselves modifying the way they play the game due to the recent updates?

#2 Zeus_CM

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 09:37 AM

View PostRitualist, on 09 March 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

Anyone else finding themselves modifying the way they play the game due to the recent updates?

Yes, I can admit that I use a sheet of paper where I write which boss (maw, dragons, behemoth, fire ele. jungle wurm) I killed with which character that day, so I don't accidentally kill same boss twice with same character, therefor maximizing my 'chest farming'. This is something I have never done before.

#3 two maces

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 09:52 AM

I don't have the time to run 5 alts through everything, so no.

I honestly thought the term "Spreadsheet Wars" was in reference to the Warrior DPS arguments going on (between GS and Axe/Mace)

#4 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 10:02 AM

View Posttwo maces, on 09 March 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

I don't have the time to run 5 alts through everything, so no.

It's exactly the folks that don't have enough time to do it all that seem to benefit the most from this. You get DE-chain rewards, chest loot and the daily and those rewards are just much better than what you could be getting by simply playing the game.
They seem like the activities to start your play-session with and if you have more time to waste, then you could add other things that do not cash out as nicely. Otherwise, you just do these core activities and call it a day.


EDIT:
It just hit me that the chests are basically the closest to content I've been bitching about for months now: it's casual, repeatable and (almost) on-demand content. It's certainly not implemented the way I'd want to see it (where players have a slightly bigger freedom in choosing what they want to be doing), but for all intents and purposes, this is basically it!

Edited by Ritualist, 09 March 2013 - 10:35 AM.


#5 ScorpioSpork

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 12:00 PM

My playstyle hasn't changed much at all, and I find the dailies much easier to complete now. Usually I start of running one path of a specific dungeons for tokens (slowly gearing up my many alts), and then I see how close I am to finishing up my dailies. Running a dungeon usually leaves me with just 3 tasks left, sometimes 4. Then I do whichever tasks are most convenient depending on the area I'm in. The only one I've "changed my playstyle" for is the Karma daily. I've used that as an excuse to slowly check out the Orrian Jewelry Boxes.

I usually only play for one or two hours a day, so it's nice that the dailies don't take up as much time.

View PostRitualist, on 09 March 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

It just hit me that the chests are basically the closest to content I've been bitching about for months now: it's casual, repeatable and (almost) on-demand content.
Can you clarify? I can't tell if you're complaining about casual, on-demand content or if you've been asking for content like that.

#6 Featherman

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 12:08 PM

It's easy and accessible content you're encouraged to do daily. Pretty sure you're playing as intended.

#7 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 01:12 PM

<p>

View PostScorpioSpork, on 09 March 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:

Can you clarify? I can't tell if you're complaining about casual, on-demand content or if you've been asking for content like that.

I've been dying for for casual, on-demand, repeatable content. Not too thrilled about the execution (I mean, I'd love to do more in this game than just repeat the same 2 bosses each day), but it does fill a certain void in GW2's content.

#8 ScorpioSpork

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 01:06 AM

View PostRitualist, on 09 March 2013 - 01:12 PM, said:

I've been dying for for casual, on-demand, repeatable content. Not too thrilled about the execution (I mean, I'd love to do more in this game than just repeat the same 2 bosses each day), but it does fill a certain void in GW2's content.
So if you don't want to repeat the same two bosses, why repeat the same bosses? I've done my dailies almost every day this week, and I haven't hit the same boss twice. Don't blame the daily if you're doing content you don't want to do. And if you absolutely must beat two bosses everyday, why not hit different bosses? At 80, the wp fee is about two silver, and you can port back to LA for free. You'll always at least make two silver from any boss chest, even if you only get fine and masterwork items. And let's face it, you hit those chests for the rares/exotics, and your profit from those is always more than the cost of a wp or two (provided you're level 80).

I guess my point is, you're talking about grinding and optimizing your playstyle. But the gold loss you'd have by just having fun instead is incredibly minimal.

#9 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 08:29 AM

View PostScorpioSpork, on 10 March 2013 - 01:06 AM, said:

So if you don't want to repeat the same two bosses, why repeat the same bosses? I've done my dailies almost every day this week, and I haven't hit the same boss twice. Don't blame the daily if you're doing content you don't want to do. And if you absolutely must beat two bosses everyday, why not hit different bosses? At 80, the wp fee is about two silver, and you can port back to LA for free. You'll always at least make two silver from any boss chest, even if you only get fine and masterwork items. And let's face it, you hit those chests for the rares/exotics, and your profit from those is always more than the cost of a wp or two (provided you're level 80).

I guess my point is, you're talking about grinding and optimizing your playstyle. But the gold loss you'd have by just having fun instead is incredibly minimal.


As I said above, the problem is that the daily and chests give rewards that are simply not comparable with the rewards that one could gain in the same time if one doesn't go specifically for the daily/chests. Which kind of is their point and that's why you can only claim those rewards once per day.
Completing this content takes time, as does everything, but for some people it will take all the time they can waste on the game. So you are either stuck doing the same areas over and over again (while the daily does promote certain areas it's the chests that are really limiting here because they only spawn in very specific locations) or you need to give up on the rewards. If you then choose to do the rewards in the select few areas, you can either jump around the world with the same guy reducing your gains by paying the waypoint fees OR you simply park different guys in different locations, thus always having a guy ready to play that specific location AND saving yourself the waypoint fee.

Edited by Ritualist, 10 March 2013 - 08:32 AM.


#10 Dasviidonja

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 08:52 AM

View PostRitualist, on 09 March 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

With the change in dailies some of us started modifying the way we play the game: our usual playstyle could not satisfy the requirements posed by the daily, so we started visiting, or just parking our characters in, select locations. Those locations allowed to get the daily actually done or just get the daily done faster.
The addition of boss-chests made this situation even worse - bosses are even more limited in the locations they spawn in and their rewards are even better than what a lot of us can expect to see from the game, especially those of us that have a fairly limited playtime.

So, what I am noticing is that I simply moved my characters around into select locations (and by select locations I mean Ele, Maw and AC), and once I check the daily to see what needs to be ground that day, I decide which boss (and its surrounding area) I will farm. The daily + the chests just provide rewards that I can not hope to match by normal play, so it absolutely makes more sense to just continuously farm the same areas over and over again. And with downscalling in place, it's really not a problem if I never leave those areas.
Add waypoint fees and it doesn't even make sense to waste resources (time/gold) by travelling around - parking one's characters into the right locations currently seems to be the optimal playstyle for a certain segment of the population. You just consult the game's various spreadsheets and off to the daily grind!
And if I have some extra time to spare, I'll just take more characters to grind the chests!


Anyone else finding themselves modifying the way they play the game due to the recent updates?

No, because I don't game the game. There's no real wealth to be had in this game because there's no endgame or vertical progression. There's nothing I can't get by just playing it and playing all over it. It's just plain silly to game a game just to keep up with the Jones's. If there were a real point to gaining wealth and optimumly I'd probably do what you're suggesting. But, since there's not and it's just all about your time to play then I feel playing it for the fun of it is more important than maximizing income.

#11 Sandpit

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 01:27 PM

I have an alt parked in queensdale. He picks up everything I don't get from WvW in a few mins. It's a good solution as I don;t enjoy playing the stupid assassin profession so he does for that. He's level 80 but anyone can do that just as easy with a level 30 (or less of course)

#12 ScorpioSpork

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 11:50 PM

View PostRitualist, on 10 March 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

As I said above, the problem is that the daily and chests give rewards that are simply not comparable with the rewards that one could gain in the same time if one doesn't go specifically for the daily/chests. Which kind of is their point and that's why you can only claim those rewards once per day.
Completing this content takes time, as does everything, but for some people it will take all the time they can waste on the game. So you are either stuck doing the same areas over and over again (while the daily does promote certain areas it's the chests that are really limiting here because they only spawn in very specific locations) or you need to give up on the rewards. If you then choose to do the rewards in the select few areas, you can either jump around the world with the same guy reducing your gains by paying the waypoint fees OR you simply park different guys in different locations, thus always having a guy ready to play that specific location AND saving yourself the waypoint fee.
This guy gets it:

View PostDasviidonja, on 10 March 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

No, because I don't game the game. There's no real wealth to be had in this game because there's no endgame or vertical progression. There's nothing I can't get by just playing it and playing all over it. It's just plain silly to game a game just to keep up with the Jones's. If there were a real point to gaining wealth and optimumly I'd probably do what you're suggesting. But, since there's not and it's just all about your time to play then I feel playing it for the fun of it is more important than maximizing income.
I guess the question is, if you only have just enough time to play to complete your dailies, what can you get from the dailies that you would really make use of? If you don't have enough time to do fractals, why do you need ascended items? And anything else you can buy from the Laurel Merchants (excluding the vanity items) only cost 1-10 laurels.

So do you complete the dailies for the exp, Mystic Coin or Karma? The exp is nice, but you get exp for doing everything in GW2. The Mystic Coins are used for expensive vanity weapons in the Forge. And the Karma... you could maybe make an argument for that. But anything you buy with Karma is optional. You don't need Karma for max stats (heck, you don't even really need max stats), and there are other ways to earn Karma anyway.

So you're chasing rewards... for what? If you're so casual/time-restricted that you can't do your dailies, what do you need the rewards for?

#13 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 07:51 AM

View PostScorpioSpork, on 10 March 2013 - 11:50 PM, said:

So you're chasing rewards... for what? If you're so casual/time-restricted that you can't do your dailies, what do you need the rewards for?

As I mentioned above, one can choose to not chase the rewards. But the game is designed to promote the idea that players do chase them, which means players that do chase them are not just playing the game in a way that the game allows, they are actually playing the game the way that the devs think it should be played. Which means it's really not yours or anyone else's place to question why a player would play for rewards.

So after we accept that (certain) players are playing for rewards (because they can), we reach the situation where certain rewards are better than the alternative rewards. If a player plays a certain way, he or she will receive rewards that are much greater than if he/she does not play that way. And that is why I am asking if that has influenced how players play the game.

Edited by Ritualist, 11 March 2013 - 08:52 AM.


#14 Trei

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 08:14 AM

View PostRitualist, on 11 March 2013 - 07:51 AM, said:

As I mentioned above, one can choose to not chase the rewards. But the game is designed to promote the idea that players do chase them, which means players that do chase them are not just playing the game in a way that the game allows, they are actually playing the game the way that the devs think it should be played. Which means ...
... which means that is nothing but your assumption, your own perception, your opinion.

Then, you based the rest of your opinions on your first opinion...?

I certainly don't consider this game to be promoting chasing rewards as the way its designed to be played.



#15 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 09:19 AM

View PostTrei, on 11 March 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

... which means that is nothing but your assumption, your own perception, your opinion.

Then, you based the rest of your opinions on your first opinion...?

I certainly don't consider this game to be promoting chasing rewards as the way its designed to be played.


Ascended gear was implemented with the sole purpose of giving players something to chase after. A.Net implemented a whole new (VERTICAL!) tier of gear to provide an initiative to keep playing. Clearly, players weren't satisfied with just playing for "fun" and A.Net catered to that.
More importantly, in the matter at hand (dailies and chests), were are also dealing with cases where A.Net is providing initiatives to have players play the game in a certain way and those initiatives come in the form of rewards. Players are free to disregard those initiatives, but that does not deny their existence.

Now, I am not REALLY bothered by the existence of initiatives themselves (you basically have such/similar initiatives in all games), but I am bothered by poorly implemented initiatives. And given the changes in my playstyle (and some of the changes other players mentioned), I think we are dealing with a poorly implemented initiative in this case.

#16 Beyond Freedom

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 09:30 AM

View PostScorpioSpork, on 10 March 2013 - 11:50 PM, said:

I guess the question is, if you only have just enough time to play to complete your dailies, what can you get from the dailies that you would really make use of? If you don't have enough time to do fractals, why do you need ascended items?

Let's say that you have enough time on a weekday to just complete the dailies (say an hour or so), but not enough time to run fractals.

Hoewever at the weekend you might have three or four hours at a time during which you want to run dungeons or fractals with your friends.

#17 Fenice_86

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 09:48 AM

I had chars "parking" in a few locations since the first change of dailies, it's useful... and boring.
Whatever i prefer a fast boring thing to a slow boring thing.

#18 raspberry jam

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 11:28 AM

View PostRitualist, on 09 March 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

Anyone else finding themselves modifying the way they play the game due to the recent updates?
Yes, I play even less than before.

#19 Trei

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 11:42 AM

View PostRitualist, on 11 March 2013 - 09:19 AM, said:

Ascended gear was implemented with the sole purpose of giving players something to chase after. A.Net implemented a whole new (VERTICAL!) tier of gear to provide an initiative to keep playing. Clearly, players weren't satisfied with just playing for "fun" and A.Net catered to that.
More importantly, in the matter at hand (dailies and chests), were are also dealing with cases where A.Net is providing initiatives to have players play the game in a certain way and those initiatives come in the form of rewards. Players are free to disregard those initiatives, but that does not deny their existence....
Precisely.
Reread what you just wrote yourself - ascended gear, dailies and chests, they had to be implemented/added in. What does that say about intentions?

Just the fact that they exist speaks nothing of the intention of the devs regarding how the game is meant or designed to be played.

Or could we say the game is meant to be totally PvP since the sPvP mode exists? The game is meant to be totally PvE because dungeons exist? The game is obviously designed for crafting since crafting exists?

No, it was done probably to cater to a portion of the player base who want them.  
They try to provide something for everyone in general to have something we might like to play for, if we are able to.

It makes little sense for one to not like something, not really able to do it, but choose to do it anyway, and still turn around and complain about it.

The game is designed and intended to be an MMORPG, that's all there is to it.
What we find fun in or about it... depends on our own playing preferences.
Some can and do find the game fun (like me), some did not and still cannot.

The game is better rewards-wise now, definitely.
But they did not make the game any more significantly fun for me, because I don't play for those things.
The game was already fun for me before these new rewards.

I am satisfied just playing for fun.

Edited by Trei, 11 March 2013 - 11:43 AM.


#20 Kanyon

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 02:35 PM

I just do what I feel like doing (daily's) and where I prefer to do them depends on the mood I am in. Then I remember which of the bosses I have killed during that session...:S

#21 Hex65000

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 08:07 PM

I modified my playstyle slightly with the new daily achievements, but not a lot.

For example, last night I ran with a group in wvw. I normally don't like pvp -- because I'm bad at it. However, I managed to get the dodge, kill variety, and invader kills right there. If I was solo roaming, (how I normally get killed) I'd have picked up gathering too. My last one was crafting, and that is pretty derp easy -- refine 10 things that i harvested to get the previous achievement.

I don't worry too hard about farming chests. If I manage to be on the map when an event kicks, I'll go. I've been trying to simply get to the target before it magically melts away so I can get something for my bother.

I think the problem is twofold: The first is that there are rarely positive comments in general about this game from the OP. The second is that the focus on efficiency ruins the fun of the activity. (As in playing the game.) Save that level of focus on efficiency for a job in manufacturing. ^_^

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#22 Kymeric

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 08:44 PM

I admit, I've been hopping around to bosses as timers indicate lately.

For the most part, I'm not that goal-oriented of a player.  I've only leveled two toons to 80 in spite of playing since launch, and I tend to wander after whatever strikes my fancy.

I just hit eighty on that second toon, though, so I'd like to get my set of exotics out of the way as quickly as possible and get back to wandering after whatever again.  The ability to grab so many rares in a short period of time and get a half dozen gold in a session is just too tempting to pass up.  I've only got two more pieces of gear and two weapons to go before I'm done, though, and I expect to be done boss-hopping after only a few days of doing it.

Dailies have definitely become more present for me than they were before laurels.  The ability to choose 5/9 has helped take the annoyance out of them, though.  I get them done pretty quickly and get back to doing whatever I want.

#23 xtbx

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 08:44 AM

lol

first be honest with what you rly wanna do in the game
1) Do you want to make money (aka grind)? Then go grind some dragons - but don't dare to complain about grinding
2) Do you want to have fun? Then go do the stuff that is fun for you no matter the rewards ... and if there is nothing like it then go play another game

Do you want both? :D Get real kids, you can't have everything ...

#24 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 11:46 AM

View Postxtbx, on 12 March 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

Do you want both? :D Get real kids, you can't have everything ...

It's funny because I think you actually mean it.
And by "funny" I mean "a sad reflection of the state of the MMO genre".

#25 pumpkin pie

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 11:52 AM

it hasn't change how I play like you describe, but it did point me to do some of the stuffs that I haven't been doing before. like dodging which is a great help if you know how to dodge in WvW you have more fun. It also make me learn how to craft, I usually don't do crafting. I craft to get rid of extra materials in my storage, with this new dailies i actually bother to learn how to do it. Also found some very interesting jumping puzzles, overall it is good and i hasn't spend any of the laurels :D i am rich unintentionally :P

#26 raspberry jam

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 12:41 PM

View Postxtbx, on 12 March 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

Do you want both? :D Get real kids, you can't have everything ...
But in GW1 I could...

#27 Jadyx

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 02:36 PM

I try to do the daily challenges as I do daily events. Things like Ascalonian Killer - I'd do that while waiting for Shatterer. Shiverpeak Event? Done when I do Maw.

I only have one level 80 so I don't have to keep track of who killed what yet, but I still write down what I have killed for the day (three dragons, four low-level events, golem, commissar). So on a typical evening, I don't really get anything else done! It's going to get worse as I get more 80s. How can I allow the loot to slip away by not utilizing all my characters and all events?




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