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[WHAT IF] Uncapping conditions


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#1 Kuskah

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 04:11 PM

[WHAT IF] is going to be my series of sporadically added threads into General discussion forum, focusing on, well, discussions about various game changes, what would happen if they occurred and how to make them work.

So the first topic that comes to my mind as a necromancer user is - what would happen if conditions, such as Bleeding, Confusion and Vulnerability stacked infinitely?

The thing is, a single condition necromancer is capable of stacking 15+ bleeds, even the 25 cap if he's running the right setup. A Grenadier Engineer can also stack 25 Vulnerabilities in seconds and also contribute with some bleeds. This, however, renders all the other party members focused on condition damage useless, since their contribution is far lesser than what it would be if they ran regular damage build.

What I would propose is uncapping the conditions. To infinity. I am well aware, however, that this could fairly damage the game and potentially make a party of 5 condition oriented builds the best thing ever. Therefor, I'd also suggest diminishing returns starting at 30 stacks, another steep decrease in damage per stack would occur at 50, 75, 100 and so on. If the numbers used were right, this could increase the effectiveness of multiple condition builds in a party, without making them overpowered.

Discuss.

#2 FoxBat

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 04:16 PM

Alternatively condition duration is just plain undervalued at the moment, particularly too easy to boost with food. If the bonuses to that were brought in line with boon duration, I don't think there would be much balance issues with infinite stacking.

The one obvious exception being vulnerability. Just plain capping that at 25% honestly sounds like it's for the best.

The real solution though, is looking at why Anet made condition spam so freaking easy given the stacking constraints. Making conditions apply less frequently & at greater strength would've saved so much trouble if not actually solving the issues.

Edited by FoxBat, 09 March 2013 - 04:17 PM.


#3 DennisChrDk

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 04:21 PM

According to Colin the game is not able to handle the ammount of conditions that would be in the game if there wasn't a cap.

The quote is from the article Q&A with Colin Johanson, Part IV
http://www.guildwars...hanson-part-iv/

Quote

Comment and question about how conditions only stack to 25 and if you have more than one condition stacker that it becomes useless and if anything is being done to address it.
Colin: Currently, no. Interesting statistic for you - every condition in the game costs server bandwidth. We have to track how often the condition is running, what the duration of that condition is, and what the stack is at. So the more stacks we allow, the more expensive it gets because we're tracking every additional stack on there. So, we could say that you could have infinite stacks. Number one, that becomes really imbalanced. But number two, it's really expensive for us on a performance basis. That's one of those weird, kind of backend server issues that can help make game design decisions regardless of what you want to do with it.


#4 Kuskah

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 04:24 PM

View PostDennisChr, on 09 March 2013 - 04:21 PM, said:

According to Colin the game is not able to handle the ammount of conditions that would be in the game if there wasn't a cap.

The quote is from the article Q&A with Colin Johanson, Part IV
http://www.guildwars...hanson-part-iv/

If the game couldn't handle too many stacks, then I have to fully agree with this:

View PostFoxBat, on 09 March 2013 - 04:16 PM, said:

The real solution though, is looking at why Anet made condition spam so freaking easy given the stacking constraints. Making conditions apply less frequently & at greater strength would've saved so much trouble if not actually solving the issues.


#5 Thaddeuz

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 04:26 PM

I agree with removing the cap on all the condition, but not on Vulnerability. With a group of 5 engineer/warrior/necromancer you could easily give 100% reduction in ennemy defense which is just stupid powerful. The vulnerability should be keep at 25 stacks.

Bleed should be 25 stack of bleed per players. THis can be already done in a party with only one condition player so this is not overpower. Overall, a party of condition players should have the best DPS of the game, but its would take some time to reach their maximum dps, while a critical based group reach their peak dps almost immediatly in a fight.

Burn and Poison should stick in duration but only for each player. If two people give poison for 10sec, this should give 2 stack of poison for 10s. Because right now, one player can put perma burn, which put all other burn useless.

Confusion is a tricky one, because if you don't have a maximum stack you could have a group of Mesmer bursting confusion on a boss just before he gonna use a particular attack so the boss attack with a high amount of confusion for a insane amount of damage, this would be particulaly overpowered in PvP when a group could burst down a player in a second even if all of their members are full bunker.

Edit : I started to write this before i could see any of the other answer. After reading them, i think the idea of Foxbat would be better. If stack 5 bleed is something only a condition player could achive and video of people reaching 10 stack would be something really hard to find, then the problem would not exist anymore. A group of 2-3 condition player would max condition but a group of 5 condition player would not be overpowered so the best group mix would be a mix of Power and Condition build.

Edited by Thaddeuz, 09 March 2013 - 04:43 PM.


#6 Nephele

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 07:54 PM

The "technical difficulties" excuse is a lie. There are other MMOs which manage damage over time effects for each player independently, so it obviously can be done. For whatever reason, Anet did the same thing WoW did on launch and just screwed damage over time builds in group play. I expect Anet to eventually give everyone their own stacks for all the damaging conditions, after appropriately balancing condition damage of course. Large scale PvE was probably just low on the priority list when the game launched, so Anet stuck the single stack limit on.

The non-damaging conditions, though, should probably stay the same. It doesn't matter how many copies of immobilize are up, the effect is the same. Also vulnerability is a special case, because it affects all damage done. So more people attacking make it cause more damage. Therefore it should keep a stack limit to avoid PvE bosses turning into vulnerability stacking contests.

#7 AKGeo

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 08:17 PM

View PostKuskah, on 09 March 2013 - 04:24 PM, said:

If the game couldn't handle too many stacks, then I have to fully agree with this:

They made condition stacking so easy to allow solo players or small groups to maintain the cap if desired while still allowing support and dps builds to be viable. If condition stacking was harder, you'd have more people running conditions in a team and variety would take a hit. When one player can stack damaging conditions and the other stacks vuln while doing dps, that frees 3 slots for support and just straight damage.

#8 El Duderino

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 09:08 PM

View PostDennisChr, on 09 March 2013 - 04:21 PM, said:

According to Colin the game is not able to handle the ammount of conditions that would be in the game if there wasn't a cap.

The quote is from the article Q&A with Colin Johanson, Part IV
http://www.guildwars...hanson-part-iv/

I believe they are looking for a way to fix this problem. Here is a post from the official forums which I believe was made after that Q&A:

https://forum-en.gui...e/4#post1505370

#9 dannywolt

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 10:44 PM

View PostNephele, on 09 March 2013 - 07:54 PM, said:

The "technical difficulties" excuse is a lie. There are other MMOs which manage damage over time effects for each player independently, so it obviously can be done.

Not really. GW2 handles DoT differently than many games. In a stack of 25 bleeds, each of those 25 bleeds has it's duration tracked individually. That data needs to be sent to every client for every condition on every enemy in the area. Allowing infinite stacks would massively increase the required bandwidth and latency. So the technical limitations issue is not a lie. The system needs to be redesigned, not simply have the cap removed.

#10 Nephele

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 12:05 AM

View Postdannywolt, on 09 March 2013 - 10:44 PM, said:

Not really. GW2 handles DoT differently than many games. In a stack of 25 bleeds, each of those 25 bleeds has it's duration tracked individually. That data needs to be sent to every client for every condition on every enemy in the area. Allowing infinite stacks would massively increase the required bandwidth and latency. So the technical limitations issue is not a lie. The system needs to be redesigned, not simply have the cap removed.
The only conditions you need to know the duration and stack number for are your own. The data for everyone else's conditions could be simplified to the time remaining on the longest duration stack. Then you'd be able to see if the target is poisoned, but not how many stacks it has. GW2 is just inefficient at how it deals with updating data for conditions.

#11 dannywolt

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 02:00 AM

View PostNephele, on 10 March 2013 - 12:05 AM, said:

The only conditions you need to know the duration and stack number for are your own. The data for everyone else's conditions could be simplified to the time remaining on the longest duration stack. Then you'd be able to see if the target is poisoned, but not how many stacks it has. GW2 is just inefficient at how it deals with updating data for conditions.

That is one potential solution but does require a full redesign of the condition system. It also has the drawback of not providing as much information to the players, which may not be a problem but the effects should be considered.

#12 FoxBat

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 03:04 AM

View PostEl Duderino, on 09 March 2013 - 09:08 PM, said:

I believe they are looking for a way to fix this problem. Here is a post from the official forums which I believe was made after that Q&A:

https://forum-en.gui...e/4#post1505370

Well the solution I suggested was not "simple." It's more like a "why the hell didn't you see this problem coming before." They'd have to rebalance every condition source in the game now which isn't trivial, and probably isn't what that quote was hinting at.

For "cheap fixes" I would probably look at a modification to defiant. Say, all condition duration is halved, but condition damage/ticks are doubled, for example. Or double armor/half health is the latter is too hard.

Edited by FoxBat, 10 March 2013 - 03:21 AM.


#13 Humfly

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 04:51 AM

View PostDennisChr, on 09 March 2013 - 04:21 PM, said:

According to Colin the game is not able to handle the ammount of conditions that would be in the game if there wasn't a cap.

The quote is from the article Q&A with Colin Johanson, Part IV
http://www.guildwars...hanson-part-iv/

Lame excuse, they should fix the game. I can only presume it involves sending ticks of condition damage to the client every second for every stack they applied to provide the waterfall of numbers on the screen. I would rather the stacks were combined to produce a single number per second or single number per condition type per second anyway. The idea of just throwing away client damage because it is too much work to tell the client about it is farcical.

#14 two maces

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 06:38 PM

If condition stacking was infinite, I'd advocate for boon stacking to be the same. Essentially you can stack as many bleeds as you could might and retaliation.

It'd only be fair :D

#15 Fenice_86

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 09:52 AM

I would lower the cap from 25 to 10 and make all player's conditions work individually and at the same time
(so 5 chars doing bleed at max cap (10) would actually stack 50 ticks and none would waste their potential)
OFC dmg should be twicked carefully (especially fire) and condition removal skills should be revisited too

#16 matsif

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 12:11 PM

I'm trying to think of a good idea to fix bleeds, and the only thing that is coming to mind would be to make bleed a flat degen on a duration instead of stacking intensity, and adding hexes/other DoT skills back into the game to replace some of the DoT bleed builds that would probably die from this change.  Make bleed give a damage between poison and burning, boost poison slightly because honestly it sucks for damage and the 33% reduced healing efficiency doesn't make up for that (at least in PvE), and allow everyone to separately add their conditions as a stacking effect for large scale events.

Vulnerability is fine as it is, anything higher than 25% damage increase would start being OP really quick.

Confusion overall I think should just be made a duration condition instead of a stacking, and boost the durations of its application and it's base damage a bit.  I've never even seen more than 10 stacks of confusion in a normal PvE setting, and even then it only lasts like 5 seconds or less.

Obviously this isn't an ideal change as a ton of rebalancing would need to happen, but at least it would allow condition/DoT builds to function in large scale DEs.

#17 Thaddeuz

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 12:42 PM

View PostAKGeo, on 09 March 2013 - 08:17 PM, said:

They made condition stacking so easy to allow solo players or small groups to maintain the cap if desired while still allowing support and dps builds to be viable. If condition stacking was harder, you'd have more people running conditions in a team and variety would take a hit. When one player can stack damaging conditions and the other stacks vuln while doing dps, that frees 3 slots for support and just straight damage.

That a weird assumption. Right now condition build is dying in PvE. At first i wanted my Necro, Ele, Engineer and Ranger to be condition damage but right now only my Engineer is still Condition. Right now, condition build is underpowered. If i'm alone to be condition in a group i can max a good number of condition and depending on my group i could negate some of the condition apply by some of my party member that run a power build. A ranger or a Warrior for example will give a good number of bleed even if they are not condition based. These bleed will be negate by me, so my presence will diminish their damage, something that i would not do with a power build. I will not negate a lot of DPS, but still i negate some. The condition build is dead in organized group and is dying in all the other aspect of the game as people understand the limitation of this kind of build. Condition and Power build by definition are DPS build. They should have both their strenght and weakness. Condition take longer to reach maximum DPS so they should have higher DPS than Power buid once they reach their maximum. This allow condition build to be better against mobs, while power build are better against everything else with less hp.

View Posttwo maces, on 10 March 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

If condition stacking was infinite, I'd advocate for boon stacking to be the same. Essentially you can stack as many bleeds as you could might and retaliation.

It'd only be fair :D

You can't do that and their is not reason to do that. The condition cap limit the damage each person do. Right now a group of 5 can only do 25 stack of bleed, but they can all have 25 stack of might. See it like 25 stack of bleed vs 5 x 25 = 125 stack of might. The boons system is just fine like it is right now.

Edited by Thaddeuz, 11 March 2013 - 12:43 PM.





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