Jump to content

  • Curse Sites
Help
* * - - - 4 votes

[WHAT IF] Raids


  • Please log in to reply
37 replies to this topic

#1 Kuskah

Kuskah

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 272 posts

Posted 13 March 2013 - 07:06 PM

[WHAT IF] is going to be my series of sporadically added threads into General discussion forum, focusing on, well, discussions about various game changes, what would happen if they occurred and how to make them work.

The topic I'd like to talk about today is, as you might have guessed from the title, raids. Specifically, I'm talking about greater dungeon groups, as in 20+ members. Obviously, this would be applied in some new dungeons to come, since the current ones would require a complete redesign.

On the plus side, I believe this would allow for some challenging content as well as more "fun". The dungeons would, in my opinion, also become less punishing if a party member got downed or killed. Another positive aspect of this would be the possible guild involvement. Right now, a guild dungeon run consists of like 4+ parties doing stuff in separate instances. With raids, the guild members could do it in 1 or 2 raids. Finally, this may or may not start a trinity system, as in people focusing on healing/boons, others on damage and so on.

On the minus side, it could be quite challenging to balance the instances for so many players. Another thing to address here is condition-based builds. The way they are right now, they would become EXTREMELY underpowered compared to raw damage ones. There's also the possibility of lag and/or FPS issues, to which the condition system would only contribute. The next problem would be finding a group in solo PvE. I mean, despite gw2lfg,  getting 20+ players via PUG may not be the easiest thing. Alongside this, I'd also like to mention the fact that the current 5-man setup feels rather personal, getting direct involvement and such. With 20+ people, you may not feel like contributing as much. This leads me to the final point about the inter-personal issues, being management. Although not impossible, switching from managing 4 people in a group into giving orders & targets to 20+ may prove quite difficult.

My final words before I let the discussion begin are about how to make it work - Guild missions. Adding a Guild Raid with specific instances might solve all the "social" issues, leaving only the technical stuff (i.e. the lag, balancing issues..).

Although there's probably much more to say to this, I'm gonna leave it up to you guys, as I want to hear your opinions.

Discuss.

#2 Kuskah

Kuskah

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 272 posts

Posted 13 March 2013 - 07:18 PM

I don't mean to come off rude guys but check the forum - this is General Discussion, not Suggestions. I'm not saying this SHOULD or SHOULDN'T be implemented, that's on ANet to decide. I'm evaluating the pros and cons and coming up with a hypothetical solution. Disliking the idea is perfectly fine, but try to present some actual arguments.

Quote

[WHAT IF] is going to be my series of sporadically added threads into General discussion forum, focusing on, well, discussions about various game changes, what would happen if they occurred and how to make them work.

^ I put it there for a reason.

Edited by Kuskah, 13 March 2013 - 07:19 PM.


#3 Kymeric

Kymeric

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1961 posts

Posted 13 March 2013 - 07:19 PM

20+ members seems a good number for tackling a T3 guild bounty.

Why start new threads on these topics that have been around for a long time?  Other than to give them a special name and use the professorial "discuss" command?

#4 xarallei

xarallei

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • Curse Premium
  • 1102 posts
  • Location:NYC
  • Profession:Ranger
  • Server:Jade Quarry

Posted 13 March 2013 - 07:27 PM

We should be able to discuss the topic like mature adults. He's presenting a hypo, if you think raids are a bad idea come out and say why instead of resorting to the rather unhelpful "go to WoW" comments.

Something as simple as saying "getting a group of 20+ people for a raid can be a pain in the ass".

#5 Kymeric

Kymeric

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1961 posts

Posted 13 March 2013 - 07:27 PM

View PostKuskah, on 13 March 2013 - 07:18 PM, said:

I don't mean to come off rude guys...

As gently as I can put it, you do come off as a little rude.  Referring to your post as part of a series, creating new threads about discussions that have been part of the forum for a long time, and using "discuss" at the end of your post all seem like ways to set yourself apart from the rest of the posters here.

It's probably just intended tongue in cheek, but it comes across differently.

OT: I wonder if you could sustain interest in Raids without putting BiS gear exclusively inside them.  Will players do that much work organizing 20 people if that isn't where they find the biggest carrot in the game?

And ANet is at least nominally behind the idea that you will be able to get the best gear in multiple ways.

Edited by Kymeric, 13 March 2013 - 07:30 PM.


#6 El Duderino

El Duderino

    Golem Rider

  • Members
  • 2246 posts
  • Location:Drowning in a White Russian listening to Creedence
  • Profession:Mesmer
  • Guild Tag:[DuDE]
  • Server:Blackgate

Posted 13 March 2013 - 07:28 PM

I agree with the other posters. This would just be more zerging which this game doesn't need at the moment.

Let's polish some content, figure out why ascended gear is the only stats you can't craft or buy on the TP.

Fix PvP and WvW. Make PvE interesting for people who don't want to grind vertical gear progression.

Find a way to make content available to all guilds, not just giant ones. Find a way to condense some of the currencies in the game.

Then, we can worry about raids.

#7 Desild

Desild

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 985 posts
  • Location:New Eden
  • Profession:Guardian
  • Guild Tag:[DKAL]
  • Server:Piken Square

Posted 13 March 2013 - 07:30 PM

Noooooooooooooo!

Nonono! Noooo! No. No! NO!!!

Ahem. Well, it's like this. I'm fine with the game having a limited about of people needed to do content. If Fractals of the Mists were a Raid, I would have quitted. Same way I quitted WoW. Tired of having myself kneecapped over the ammout of people I can shove inside a tiny instance. Yeah. Five man is balanced, easy to reach, and easier to maintain even a small fixed group outside of a guild.

So yeah. No raids please.

tl;dr - No!

#8 Kuskah

Kuskah

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 272 posts

Posted 13 March 2013 - 08:16 PM

View PostKymeric, on 13 March 2013 - 07:27 PM, said:

As gently as I can put it, you do come off as a little rude.  Referring to your post as part of a series, creating new threads about discussions that have been part of the forum for a long time, and using "discuss" at the end of your post all seem like ways to set yourself apart from the rest of the posters here.

It's probably just intended tongue in cheek, but it comes across differently.

Actually, the original intention wasn't a "series" of any sort. My first thread in this "series" was about conditions, because one day I was running dungeons on my necro with some more necros in the party and I've noticed the 25 bleed stack and was like "I can do more than half of those on my own.". I thought it was quite the issue to address so I started (maybe yet another) thread about it. It was supposed to be named "Uncapping conditions". It, however, sounded like a mad suggestion to me and I was kind of expecting the response I'm getting in this one, since I'm of the belief that most people react to the topic title, rather than the OP. So I put the What If there. Then I thought that there were some more stuff I might want to talk about, either now or in the future, so I instead of just making these random threads every now and then, I wanted to  make something where people would know the nature of the topic from the title. That's why this [WHAT IF] stuff is going on. Nothing more, nothing less.

As for the "Discuss" at the end, I admit, it sounds quite impersonal and I was actually rather hesitant to put it there. I wanted to underline the fact that this should be a discussion though, not some one-word answers and bashing so I left it. With a hindsight, I probably should've gone with "Let's discuss" or something warmer sounding.

TL;DR: Origin of this thing INB4 "I don't care."

View PostEl Duderino, on 13 March 2013 - 07:28 PM, said:

I agree with the other posters. This would just be more zerging which this game doesn't need at the moment.

Let's polish some content, figure out why ascended gear is the only stats you can't craft or buy on the TP.

Fix PvP and WvW. Make PvE interesting for people who don't want to grind vertical gear progression.

Find a way to make content available to all guilds, not just giant ones. Find a way to condense some of the currencies in the game.

Then, we can worry about raids.

I don't want to go much off-topic, but I actually stopped and thought about the bold part for a bit. I've been thinking, and I honestly can't come up with any way to make PvE interesting without the gear progression. Honestly, if I didn't need money, tokens and such for equipment, I'd probably play WvW and PvP only, no matter how awesome dragon fights and such would be going on in the PvE part.

Edited by Kuskah, 13 March 2013 - 08:17 PM.


#9 El Duderino

El Duderino

    Golem Rider

  • Members
  • 2246 posts
  • Location:Drowning in a White Russian listening to Creedence
  • Profession:Mesmer
  • Guild Tag:[DuDE]
  • Server:Blackgate

Posted 13 March 2013 - 08:31 PM

View PostKuskah, on 13 March 2013 - 08:16 PM, said:

I don't want to go much off-topic, but I actually stopped and thought about the bold part for a bit. I've been thinking, and I honestly can't come up with any way to make PvE interesting without the gear progression. Honestly, if I didn't need money, tokens and such for equipment, I'd probably play WvW and PvP only, no matter how awesome dragon fights and such would be going on in the PvE part.

I agree. It is difficult. Two things I can think of would be to make the battles more interesting. PvE in general is very very easy in this game.

The second would be to give us a reason to go and explore. The maps in GW1 felt giant and epic compared to what we have in GW2, so when I went to do things like capping an elite, I was forced to go through lots of trouble to get the elite. It felt like an actual adventure. Now, we can just port to a waypoint, grab what we need and go - there is no more epic adventure to do anything once you unlock the waypoints.

Another thing I suggested in a different thread that helps with making exploring interesting, is giving rare loot drops tied to specific locations/maps/mobs etc.

But, we have steered off course. Perhaps we can discuss this in another thread if you would like to keep it going.

#10 Kymeric

Kymeric

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1961 posts

Posted 13 March 2013 - 08:33 PM

View PostKuskah, on 13 March 2013 - 08:16 PM, said:

I don't want to go much off-topic, but I actually stopped and thought about the bold part for a bit. I've been thinking, and I honestly can't come up with any way to make PvE interesting without the gear progression. Honestly, if I didn't need money, tokens and such for equipment, I'd probably play WvW and PvP only, no matter how awesome dragon fights and such would be going on in the PvE part.

Which is, unfortunately, probably true of a lot of MMORPG players.  Unfortunately, because those of us who are happy to run around with capped gear playing PvE as long as the content is challenging and story interesting are in the minority, and games will be designed for the majority.

Which goes back to my point.  IF ANet doesn't put BiS gear exclusively in Raids, will enough people actually play them to justify the development resources?

IF ANet does put BiS gear exclusively in Raids, watch the players leave in droves who are at least holding on to GW2 being different in that respect.  I haven't agreed with some of ANets decisions, but none of them have been game-breakers so far.  Raids as the ultimate endgame progression would.

Edited by Kymeric, 13 March 2013 - 08:47 PM.


#11 Kymeric

Kymeric

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1961 posts

Posted 13 March 2013 - 08:43 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 13 March 2013 - 08:31 PM, said:

The second would be to give us a reason to go and explore. The maps in GW1 felt giant and epic compared to what we have in GW2, so when I went to do things like capping an elite, I was forced to go through lots of trouble to get the elite. It felt like an actual adventure. Now, we can just port to a waypoint, grab what we need and go - there is no more epic adventure to do anything once you unlock the waypoints.

Although part of that was the crazy convoluted terrain, which is fun in moderate amounts, but can be very frustrating if you get to the point where you are wandering switchbacks just to make it feel like a zone is bigger than it really is.

I had moments in GW1 where the terrain was a challenge, and I had fun trying to figure out the pass, so to speak, that would get me just over that ridge.  On the other hand, I had moments where I just got sick of fighting yet more pop-up devourers as I wound my way back and forth.

I can certainly imagine how frustrating it would be to see a DE pop just around the corner and then spend a great deal of time trying to find it only to arrive as other players are finishing it.

Quote

But, we have steered off course. Perhaps we can discuss this in another thread if you would like to keep it going.

Maybe it's not all that off topic.  The new guild events take us back into the world for content that requires a significant amount of people.  Twenty people scouting NPCs across the world has felt adventurous to me so far.  There's coordination, and the time limit makes the world a little more dangerous than when you can take your time working through it.  When you're trying to cover ground quickly, running mobs, and find yourself accidentally stuck in a Flame Legion camp or Inquest Lab facing CC and too many mobs at once, it's a different experience than when I first opened up the area doing hearts and DEs.

If this kind of thing can be expanded upon and improved, do we even need 20 man instances?

Edited by Kymeric, 13 March 2013 - 08:45 PM.


#12 El Duderino

El Duderino

    Golem Rider

  • Members
  • 2246 posts
  • Location:Drowning in a White Russian listening to Creedence
  • Profession:Mesmer
  • Guild Tag:[DuDE]
  • Server:Blackgate

Posted 13 March 2013 - 08:55 PM

View PostKymeric, on 13 March 2013 - 08:43 PM, said:

Although part of that was the crazy convoluted terrain, which is fun in moderate amounts, but can be very frustrating if you get to the point where you are wandering switchbacks just to make it feel like a zone is bigger than it really is.

I had moments in GW1 where the terrain was a challenge, and I had fun trying to figure out the pass, so to speak, that would get me just over that ridge.  On the other hand, I had moments where I just got sick of fighting yet more pop-up devourers as I wound my way back and forth.

I can certainly imagine how frustrating it would be to see a DE pop just around the corner and then spend a great deal of time trying to find it only to arrive as other players are finishing it.

Yes, I am quickly realizing that I much prefer an instanced world over a persistent world. Every time I left an outpost, it was an adventure. Sometimes mobs were annoying, but I always felt like I was doing some more epic than I am in GW2. And the difficulty made it more rewarding to finish.

#13 Inraged Twitch

Inraged Twitch

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 412 posts
  • Location:T-Town WA
  • Profession:Mesmer
  • Guild Tag:[MGW]
  • Server:Henge of Denravi

Posted 13 March 2013 - 08:57 PM

I do think they need to increase the amount of players in dungeons but I would REALLY like to see the old favs from GW1 make a return UW/FOW URGOZ/DEEP and of course DOA.  

That being said I think 20 man is a little to much I think 10-15 would be the perfect number allowing for group puzzles to work correctly within the dungeons and condone more "group" play rather than just a group that steam rolls shit through the maps.  Maybe even make it require certain classes

(I KNOW ANET THINKS ITS THE MOTHER OF ALL EVIL TO FORCE PEOPLE TO PLAY SOMETHING THEY DON'T LIKE.)

Edited by Inraged Twitch, 13 March 2013 - 09:00 PM.


#14 Kymeric

Kymeric

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1961 posts

Posted 13 March 2013 - 09:06 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 13 March 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

Yes, I am quickly realizing that I much prefer an instanced world over a persistent world. Every time I left an outpost, it was an adventure. Sometimes mobs were annoying, but I always felt like I was doing some more epic than I am in GW2. And the difficulty made it more rewarding to finish.

One of the things I love about MMORPGs is running into people randomly in the world.  GW1's heavy instancing wasn't my thing.

Tougher mobs out in the world would help.  And more difficulty running past them.  And perhaps a level of creature somewhere between Champion (one shot me) and Vet (easily soloed) that you could come upon.

#15 Baron von Scrufflebutt

Baron von Scrufflebutt

    Golem Rider

  • Members
  • 3226 posts

Posted 13 March 2013 - 09:14 PM

Game needs more solo/small-group content first.

#16 El Duderino

El Duderino

    Golem Rider

  • Members
  • 2246 posts
  • Location:Drowning in a White Russian listening to Creedence
  • Profession:Mesmer
  • Guild Tag:[DuDE]
  • Server:Blackgate

Posted 13 March 2013 - 09:32 PM

View PostKymeric, on 13 March 2013 - 09:06 PM, said:

One of the things I love about MMORPGs is running into people randomly in the world.  GW1's heavy instancing wasn't my thing.

Tougher mobs out in the world would help.  And more difficulty running past them.  And perhaps a level of creature somewhere between Champion (one shot me) and Vet (easily soloed) that you could come upon.

Perhaps, just not having waypoints other than in towns would be a better way of doing things and keeping the persistent world. Hell, it would make it better even for the world events instead of waypointing right next to them - at least you would have to adventure to them.

Also, I hate to bring this up again, but ANet doesn't have to make a dedicated healing class, but giving a few more heal skills to the classes, especially some target specific heals, would allow for more flexibility for creating tougher mobs.

#17 Baron von Scrufflebutt

Baron von Scrufflebutt

    Golem Rider

  • Members
  • 3226 posts

Posted 13 March 2013 - 10:08 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 13 March 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

Yes, I am quickly realizing that I much prefer an instanced world over a persistent world. Every time I left an outpost, it was an adventure. Sometimes mobs were annoying, but I always felt like I was doing some more epic than I am in GW2. And the difficulty made it more rewarding to finish.

That's the issue of persistent worlds - there's just no way that you can make the environment as satisfying as you can make it in an instanced game. MMOs thus try to negate this shortcoming by hoping that players themselves will "create content", or give you a reason to be in that area.
The problem is that I don't think WE are doing that in GW2, which means we are simply left with sub-par content and nothing to negate that.

We're getting the shortcomings of an instanced world, with none of the benefits.

#18 matsif

matsif

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1516 posts
  • Server:Fort Aspenwood

Posted 13 March 2013 - 10:57 PM

8 man parties for content at the level of UW/FoW/DoA?  yes please.

20 man raids is excessive and never appealed to me.

#19 Kymeric

Kymeric

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1961 posts

Posted 13 March 2013 - 11:59 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 13 March 2013 - 09:32 PM, said:

Perhaps, just not having waypoints other than in towns would be a better way of doing things and keeping the persistent world. Hell, it would make it better even for the world events instead of waypointing right next to them - at least you would have to adventure to them.

I would certainly enjoy removing all but two or three waypoints from every zone and giving us the option for some mounts.  It would be wonderful to ride a well animated horse across Tyria.

Clear roads mostly of mobs, so you can take them across the zone without fighting everything every ten feet, but give us incentives to get off the roads.

Quote

Also, I hate to bring this up again, but ANet doesn't have to make a dedicated healing class, but giving a few more heal skills to the classes, especially some target specific heals, would allow for more flexibility for creating tougher mobs.

You've got me thinking about that.

View PostRitualist, on 13 March 2013 - 10:08 PM, said:

That's the issue of persistent worlds - there's just no way that you can make the environment as satisfying as you can make it in an instanced game.

What if Tyria slowly scaled difficulty so that it was increasingly hard to solo?

So a level 3 character can happily run around taking on same level mobs, but by the time you hit a level 80 zone you better have four people with you even for regular mobs?

Also, what if aggro/threat/whatever was actually clearer to see in this game?  So that players could make a more conscious choice to take aggro from a player that is losing health.  Some way to actively tag team foes, jumping in and taking the heat whenever someone else is getting overwhelmed?

#20 Dasryn

Dasryn

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1570 posts
  • Location:USA (GMT -5)
  • Profession:Thief
  • Guild Tag:[Myth]
  • Server:Tarnished Coast

Posted 14 March 2013 - 12:04 AM

i am a firm believer of more content variety is better than no content variety.  im sure there is a whole slew of people that could care less for this type of content, but there is also a whole slew of people that would be very interested in this content.

i like raids.

GW2 kinda does have raids.  they are i nthe form of DEs but man i was just in one it was a series of "bosses" if you will, leading up to the cahmpion modnir Ulgoth over i nthe hirathi hinterlands (?)

man that was for all intents and purposes, a raid.  there was over 20 people, not much more , but definitely around 20+ and we had a blast.

too bad my only reward was a blue mesmer mask. . .

but thats another discussion.

#21 Guardian of the Light

Guardian of the Light

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1432 posts
  • Guild Tag:[ADA]
  • Server:Isle of Janthir

Posted 14 March 2013 - 06:23 AM

I was under the impression that guild mission were to be a stand-ins or replacements for raids and in theory allowed the entire guild to particpate without having any cap on the amount of people and while bounties are a bit disappointing especially since dufly let's you cheat a bit on them, I think guild challenges might be something good even if they're gated with this BS unlocking system ATM.

#22 Resolve

Resolve

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 540 posts

Posted 14 March 2013 - 01:49 PM

I'd rather get more Fractal levels. if they add Raids it's just going to be another currency and blah.

#23 Artypartytime

Artypartytime

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 221 posts

Posted 14 March 2013 - 01:58 PM

I think it would be cool if some of the larger currently non accessible areas where actually really tough interesting raid missions.

#24 Krazzar

Krazzar

    Legend of the Norn

  • Members
  • 7985 posts
  • Server:Sanctum of Rall

Posted 15 March 2013 - 06:45 PM

Raids? No thanks. Zones need to be much more populated with events and chains that end with "epic" events.  There is much more variability with that which can increase difficulty. Scaling should be improved as well to increase the difficulty across the board. Rewards needs work as well, but as time goes on the game will generally become more rewarding or have more mechanisms to gain rewards quicker to help new players get up to speed faster, especially after the first expansion pack.

#25 Kymeric

Kymeric

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1961 posts

Posted 15 March 2013 - 09:02 PM

I remember before they opened the high level zones in the BWEs when speculation about Orr was that it was going to be the area with really tough mobs and events that would require organized guilds to complete.

People were talking about it as being a sort of PvE version of WvW where groups would have to lay siege against the dragons forces to complete quest chains.

Edited by Kymeric, 15 March 2013 - 09:03 PM.


#26 two maces

two maces

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 625 posts
  • Guild Tag:[CCTV]
  • Server:Sea of Sorrows

Posted 16 March 2013 - 02:07 AM

Orr needs more concurrent events. Such as a multi-pronged assault on 2 temples to spawn a phat dragon. Stuff like that. Too many events happen that are not inter-connected.

#27 dannywolt

dannywolt

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 382 posts
  • Location:Oregon, USA
  • Guild Tag:[ProT]
  • Server:Fort Aspenwood

Posted 16 March 2013 - 02:57 AM

The open-world group events were intended to be a sort of scalable raid, but that hasn't worked out too well. GW2 needs content that requires coordination in larger groups. A-Net either needs to redesign group event bosses to severely punish zerging (e.g. the AI notices a group of 30 players just standing in a group DPSing and one-shots them all), or add a type of raid. Guild bounties aren't the answer; maybe guild challenges will be but I'd like to see large-group content that can be pugged as well.

Rewards need to be balanced so that raids are desired but not overwhelmingly so: Give more rewards for the harder work but not so many that players only run the raids. Unique skins are good too. I still run fractals for a shot at the weapons.

I have seen an increasing number of players complain when content is added that they can't or don't want to complete. I couldn't disagree more. GW2 needs a vast variety of content types to make the world feel diverse and give players a goal to aim for.

#28 Trei

Trei

    Golem Rider

  • Members
  • 2929 posts
  • Server:Jade Quarry

Posted 16 March 2013 - 04:27 AM

View PostKymeric, on 13 March 2013 - 08:43 PM, said:

...
I can certainly imagine how frustrating it would be to see a DE pop just around the corner and then spend a great deal of time trying to find it only to arrive as other players are finishing it...
That's perhaps one of the underlying issues not with modern games but with gamERs. Seems to me increasing numbers of players nowadays are much quicker to get easily frustrated by every little thing.

Patience and perseverance seem to be in short supply this day and age.

Not only that but there also the matter of their immediate perspectives and reaction in the face of such frustrations; the guy who missed that DE in your example - he is more than likely to turn around and blame the game for his frustration before anything else.
Oh its the terrain fault, or... Its the DE fault for not being content on demand just for me...

Its a game... so what if I didn't manage to make it to that DE?
Me? I'd had gone "oh well, now I know how to get thru that pass quicker next time round, and I now know about that DE there too... "

Blame? What for?

I don't expect an MMO I play to revolve around my existence.
I don't think anyone should either.

#29 Craywulf

Craywulf

    Legion Commander

  • Members
  • 5273 posts

Posted 16 March 2013 - 05:06 AM

View PostTrei, on 16 March 2013 - 04:27 AM, said:

That's perhaps one of the underlying issues not with modern games but with gamERs. Seems to me increasing numbers of players nowadays are much quicker to get easily frustrated by every little thing.

Patience and perseverance seem to be in short supply this day and age.

Not only that but there also the matter of their immediate perspectives and reaction in the face of such frustrations; the guy who missed that DE in your example - he is more than likely to turn around and blame the game for his frustration before anything else.
Oh its the terrain fault, or... Its the DE fault for not being content on demand just for me...

Its a game... so what if I didn't manage to make it to that DE?
Me? I'd had gone "oh well, now I know how to get thru that pass quicker next time round, and I now know about that DE there too... "

Blame? What for?

I don't expect an MMO I play to revolve around my existence.
I don't think anyone should either.
Wow, You sound like me, preaching patience and perseverance. I agree with you 110%

#30 Kymeric

Kymeric

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1961 posts

Posted 16 March 2013 - 05:48 PM

View PostTrei, on 16 March 2013 - 04:27 AM, said:

That's perhaps one of the underlying issues not with modern games but with gamERs. Seems to me increasing numbers of players nowadays are much quicker to get easily frustrated by every little thing.

Its a game... so what if I didn't manage to make it to that DE?
Me? I'd had gone "oh well, now I know how to get thru that pass quicker next time round, and I now know about that DE there too... "

I get your general point.  And I agree with you to an extent.

One missed DE wouldn't be a big deal, but if the terrain is designed specifically to make you wind back and forth and make it difficult to find your way through, we're probably talking repeated missed DEs.  And we're into the problems with discussing hypotheticals.  Would a game with intentionally convoluted terrain even have DEs as we know them, or would they need complete redesigning.

It's easy to dismiss the current, "ezmode" generation, and wax nostalgic about taking two years to get to level 50 and spending hours getting across one zone in the old days, but that's very simplistic.  There's a balance here, and the mid point isn't obvious.

MMORPGs are pass times.  They're games.  They shouldn't take the effort of a job or mastering an instrument or becoming a world class athlete.  At the same time, you are absolutely right that they should require some effort, or they will be dull and rewards meaningless.

A lot of times people complain about being frustrated not because content is difficult, but because it is designed to make things take longer in order to lengthen playtime.  It would be a mistake to dismiss every player who is frustrated by mechanics like these as wanting things easy and lacking in patience.

If someone finds it frustrating to wind back and forth over convoluted terrain fighting the same pop-up devourers that are not challenging but can't be run past, counselling patience isn't really addressing the issue.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users