87 replies to this topic

[El Duderino]

I realized something that I think would make this game better: less waypoints.

Right now, we can way point to within a a few digital feet of anywhere in the game.

One of the things about GW1, regardless of the instancing, was that you had to travel from an outpost to get anywhere. It made adventure feel more rewarding. You had more encounters. More difficulty getting some places.

Plus, this would be a great way to get people to stop just waypointing to events and leaving. At least they might have to work together to get to the event.

Sure, they could run it, but maybe ANet buffs the mobs in some places to put in more snares to make it more difficult to run.

Anyways, I know it will never happen, but I would love to see way less waypoints. In fact, perhaps just waypoints in the major cities and few major outposts.

Edited by El Duderino, 13 March 2013 - 09:37 PM.

[FoxBat]

I do know what you mean here, but part of the issue is that waypoints are also resurrection shrines.

Running through everywhere is just ridiculously easy compared to GW1 as well. Even pre-nerf orr wasn't that bad relatively speaking.

[Zylo]

El Duderino, on 13 March 2013 - 09:37 PM, said:

Plus, this would be a great way to get people to stop just waypointing to events and leaving. At least they might have to work together to get to the event.

Sure, they could run it, but maybe ANet buffs the mobs in some places to put in more snares to make it more difficult to run.

This will have the exact opposite effect. Instead of people fighting through areas to get to events and feel the true adventure aspect that you want them to, they simply won't engage in the events. They ESPECIALLY won't engage in the events if they're not only out of the way, but frustrating to get to because of enemies with CC's.

[Ritualist]

Reduce the number of waypoints and remove waypoint fees.
But if I am going to be paying for the waypoints then I better get the star-treatment and this means warping right on top of the location I want to be in.

[El Duderino]

Zylo, on 13 March 2013 - 09:55 PM, said:

This will have the exact opposite effect. Instead of people fighting through areas to get to events and feel the true adventure aspect that you want them to, they simply won't engage in the events. They ESPECIALLY won't engage in the events if they're not only out of the way, but frustrating to get to because of enemies with CC's.

I disagree. The events are so good, they are the best farm in the game. People will still find their way to them.

FoxBat, on 13 March 2013 - 09:50 PM, said:

I do know what you mean here, but part of the issue is that waypoints are also resurrection shrines.

Running through everywhere is just ridiculously easy compared to GW1 as well. Even pre-nerf orr wasn't that bad relatively speaking.

Yea, well you could keep them as resurrection shrines instead of waypoints.

Running would definitely have to be addressed. It would have to be challenging like doing the Drok's run (ok maybe not that hard ).

[Sans]

Remove waypoints outside of Main cities and Durmand/Orders/Vigil/Ebonhawk.
And a few key locations that the Pact controls in Orr.

Also, 1 free waypoint near a portal in each area to respawn

I'm down for that.

[Captain Bulldozer]

People using WPs to get to events quickly doesn't strike me as a very big problem.  Plenty of events in game still go completely uncompleted due to lack of interest, and I am sure that fewer way points would only make this more true.

As an example.... on my server the Arah quest chain is currently bugged, making the nearest open WP to the temple of Grenth a pretty fair distance away.  As a consequence, when people die at the event for Grenth's Temple control (a VERY common occurance as I'm sure you know) the result is that since the WPs are so far, many will just sit and wait for a rez.  This tends to result in the absolute failure of the event, event when 30 people actually wanted to do it... all simply because of waypoint distance (and the fact that combat rezing at that event are not very plausible).

Fewer waypoints would also do very little to discourage farmers of events, as people could just keep a character at a specific location when they log out, and log in on it for the event (many people do this already even with easy waypointing).

[El Duderino]

Captain Bulldozer, on 13 March 2013 - 10:25 PM, said:

People using WPs to get to events quickly doesn't strike me as a very big problem.  Plenty of events in game still go completely uncompleted due to lack of interest, and I am sure that fewer way points would only make this more true.

As an example.... on my server the Arah quest chain is currently bugged, making the nearest open WP to the temple of Grenth a pretty fair distance away.  As a consequence, when people die at the event for Grenth's Temple control (a VERY common occurance as I'm sure you know) the result is that since the WPs are so far, many will just sit and wait for a rez.  This tends to result in the absolute failure of the event, event when 30 people actually wanted to do it... all simply because of waypoint distance (and the fact that combat rezing at that event are not very plausible).

Fewer waypoints would also do very little to discourage farmers of events, as people could just keep a character at a specific location when they log out, and log in on it for the event (many people do this already even with easy waypointing).

Failure should be an option. The higher the chance of failure, the more rewarding it is to not fail.

Also, keep in mind that the Grenth situation you posted is one of the reasons why Arena Net changed the way you rez while in combat in dungeons - to discourage rez killing a boss.

But, I agree that by itself it may not make other zones healthy, but those zones aren't really healthy to begin with - so they need to be addressed regardless.

[xarallei]

Totally disagree. I like lots of way points. It makes me more likely to go out and do stuff. If you don't like way points don't use them. The rest of us like them. Only thing I would complain about is the cost, but other than that it's great.

[relyk]

Why should it be more difficult to get to places? Why should I "adventure" back to a place I already explored? It's marvelous people can jump over to the event you're doing and then go back to what they were doing. If people have to waste time running to your location to help because there isn't a nearby waypoint, they aren't going to be inclined to help. You are probably referring to boss events and people jumping in for the quick reward, but I don't see why that's bad. People use waypoints to jump into any event going on and help, not just to farm events for themselves.

[Verene]

You really can't compare how fast travel worked in GW1, and how it works in GW2. The zones in GW2 are so much larger than the ones in GW1, and there's significantly more to do in them.

[El Duderino]

xarallei, on 13 March 2013 - 10:45 PM, said:

Totally disagree. I like lots of way points. It makes me more likely to go out and do stuff. If you don't like way points don't use them. The rest of us like them. Only thing I would complain about is the cost, but other than that it's great.

Ok, I'm sincerely not trying to be snarky; but, I really want to know if you would really stop "doing stuff" if there were fewer waypoints?

It makes me think that you think this game is too dull to play outside of the fact that it is easy to waypoint around and do stuff. If the content isn't worth getting to, then isn't the content the problem and not the means of travel?

Also, I figured someone would say if you don't like waypoints, don't use them. It's not that I don't like waypoints - I just think the game would be better for everyone without as many of them.

Verene, on 13 March 2013 - 11:01 PM, said:

The zones in GW2 are so much larger than the ones in GW1, and there's significantly more to do in them.

Really, because I feel the exact opposite. I would honestly like to know the truth about this. The areas seem about the same size in GW2, if not a little smaller. Also, I feel there is still the same amount of stuff to do, if not slightly less.

relyk, on 13 March 2013 - 11:00 PM, said:

Why should it be more difficult to get to places? Why should I "adventure" back to a place I already explored? It's marvelous people can jump over to the event you're doing and then go back to what they were doing. If people have to waste time running to your location to help because there isn't a nearby waypoint, they aren't going to be inclined to help. You are probably referring to boss events and people jumping in for the quick reward, but I don't see why that's bad. People use waypoints to jump into any event going on and help, not just to farm events for themselves.

You would be able to adventure to places you have already been - just not as many of them concentrated in one area.

Also, there is definitely something broken about being able to get gold chests (which can drop exotics and precursors I think) in a matter of minutes with no downside.

The only time I see people "helping" with quests is when they need it to finish their daily or are in the area and join in to level or get the easy karma.

I guess it would give the events a more "grassroots" feel instead of the current "what's the waypoint for the next event" spam in map chat we have now. But yes, it would definitely make it harder to get to events which would be intended.

Edited by El Duderino, 13 March 2013 - 11:12 PM.

[Sandpit]

Bad idea. This will kill dynamic eventing. We need to make it easier to get to events (get rid of the ff) not harder.

And you are not exploring, you have already been there lots of times, you are just adding grind and artificially stopping players doing what they want to do.

[El Duderino]

Sandpit, on 13 March 2013 - 11:36 PM, said:

Bad idea. This will kill dynamic eventing. We need to make it easier to get to events (get rid of the ff) not harder.

And you are not exploring, you have already been there lots of times, you are just adding grind and artificially stopping players doing what they want to do.

Again, I doubt it will kill dynamic events - instead the idea is to make events feel more real and immersive instead of "Everyone to X waypoint. [insert event here] is up!" zerging which happens now.

And again, if traveling a few extra steps to get to content is going to stop players from doing that content - is it the means of travel that makes the content bad or the fact that it isn't worth going out of your way to get to?

I just feel that the Guild Wars franchise is really lacking in immersion and becoming a rather grindy game where people are forgetting how much fun it is to actually play the game instead of zerging rewards.

[Dasryn]

El Duderino, on 13 March 2013 - 09:37 PM, said:

I realized something that I think would make this game better: less waypoints.

unless they add something like mounts. . . i feel like there should be MORE waypoints.

fast travel is fast travel, you either have an efficient plenty means of it or not.

[xarallei]

El Duderino, on 13 March 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

Ok, I'm sincerely not trying to be snarky; but, I really want to know if you would really stop "doing stuff" if there were fewer waypoints?

It makes me think that you think this game is too dull to play outside of the fact that it is easy to waypoint around and do stuff. If the content isn't worth getting to, then isn't the content the problem and not the means of travel?

Also, I figured someone would say if you don't like waypoints, don't use them. It's not that I don't like waypoints - I just think the game would be better for everyone without as many of them.

Because I have a very busy schedule and I don't have time to waste trekking through nonsense mobs and cc to get to where I want to go. I already went through and got those way points the first time around. It frees my time up so I'm doing more actual content rather then running around.

If you really love running around then I suggest not taking whatever the closest way point is and walking the rest of the way if you want that experience.

[Verranicus]

El Duderino, on 13 March 2013 - 09:37 PM, said:

I realized something that I think would make this game better: less waypoints.

Right now, we can way point to within a a few digital feet of anywhere in the game.

One of the things about GW1, regardless of the instancing, was that you had to travel from an outpost to get anywhere. It made adventure feel more rewarding. You had more encounters. More difficulty getting some places.

Plus, this would be a great way to get people to stop just waypointing to events and leaving. At least they might have to work together to get to the event.

Sure, they could run it, but maybe ANet buffs the mobs in some places to put in more snares to make it more difficult to run.

Anyways, I know it will never happen, but I would love to see way less waypoints. In fact, perhaps just waypoints in the major cities and few major outposts.

Waypoints are fine. This isn't Guild Wars 1. Nothing is stopping you from manually running around and you have no right to force others into your brand of fun.

[Babylon]

Sure, I'll buy into less waypoints. On the condition of mounts.

[El Duderino]

xarallei, on 14 March 2013 - 12:08 AM, said:

Because I have a very busy schedule and I don't have time to waste trekking through nonsense mobs and cc to get to where I want to go. I already went through and got those way points the first time around. It frees my time up so I'm doing more actual content rather then running around.

If you really love running around then I suggest not taking whatever the closest way point is and walking the rest of the way if you want that experience.

You didn't answer my question, you merely restated your original post in different words.

Is the content you are doing worth the trip or is it inherently bad content and not worth the trip? If you could expound upon what it is you like to do - that might help as well. So far, all you are saying is that you like to do stuff faster, which I admit everyone likes to do stuff faster. That doesn't mean that giving in to people's laziness is a good reason to design a game.

Also, if you actually read my response to your first post, you would see that this isn't about me wanting to take longer to get from point A to point B - its about changing the way this game is fundamentally played right now, which seems very very broken.

[xarallei]

El Duderino, on 14 March 2013 - 12:12 AM, said:

You didn't answer my question, you merely restated your original post in different words.

Is the content you are doing worth the trip or is it inherently bad content and not worth the trip? If you could expound upon what it is you like to do - that might help as well. So far, all you are saying is that you like to do stuff faster, which I admit everyone likes to do stuff faster. That doesn't mean that giving in to people's laziness is a good reason to design a game.

Also, if you actually read my response to your first post, you would see that this isn't about me wanting to take longer to get from point A to point B - its about changing the way this game is fundamentally played right now, which seems very very broken.

My time is very limited. If I have to run through lots of crap to get to events that means I do LESS events because I don't have the time to run through garbage to get to all the events I want. With way points I can jump from event to event and get much more done. Not a hard thing to understand. The events might be worth it to me, but I won't have time to do them if a system like you want is in place.

[El Duderino]

Verranicus, on 14 March 2013 - 12:10 AM, said:

Waypoints are fine. This isn't Guild Wars 1. Nothing is stopping you from manually running around and you have no right to force others into your brand of fun.

Again, you are missing the point. This isn't about me and the way I have fun. This is about the fact that the mindset of this game is based around zerging events with no real immersion into the actual game. I doubt people feel like they are in the world of Tyria as they keep tabs on their event timer to see when Maw or another event is up so they can pop in and out, collect their gold and keep going.

xarallei, on 14 March 2013 - 12:14 AM, said:

My time is very limited. If I have to run through lots of crap to get to events that means I do LESS events because I don't have the time to run through garbage to get to all the events I want. With way points I can jump from event to event and get much more done. Not a hard thing to understand. The events might be worth it to me, but I won't have time to do them if a system like you want is in place.

So, if you can't do more than a couple, its a waste of time to do any? Would you quit playing the game over it?

Rickter, on 14 March 2013 - 12:05 AM, said:

unless they add something like mounts. . . i feel like there should be MORE waypoints.

fast travel is fast travel, you either have an efficient plenty means of it or not.

I'm trying to figure out what your point is. You just like to get places fast is all?

Babylon, on 14 March 2013 - 12:11 AM, said:

Sure, I'll buy into less waypoints. On the condition of mounts.

I think that would be fine and way better than it is now  - so long as mounts don't let you run through content. You should still be able to get "caught" by a mob or two.

[xarallei]

Dude, I already miss out on many events as it is. You're basically taking more content away from me. If I spend so much time running around ccing trash mobs rather than doing events, then yes I would probably quit. It wouldn't be worth it to play.

[Babylon]

El Duderino, on 14 March 2013 - 12:17 AM, said:

I think that would be fine and way better than it is now  - so long as mounts don't let you run through content. You should still be able to get "caught" by a mob or two.

Screw that, I fight what I damn well please! In fact, I want an airship.
Seriously though, I have no strong feeling either way about waypoints, I'm just concerned with the amount of my life I waste walking back and forth painfully slowly (especially when I enter combat).

[El Duderino]

xarallei, on 14 March 2013 - 12:21 AM, said:

Dude, I already miss out on many events as it is. You're basically taking more content away from me. If I spend so much time running around ccing trash mobs rather than doing events, then yes I would probably quit. It wouldn't be worth it to play.

Correct me if I am wrong, because I am trying to read between the lines a bit here, but it sounds like you basically waypoint around to get golds from events.

If that is the case, then yes, what I am proposing would put a serious hamper in what you are doing, because I feel (and I think if you take a moment to reflect on it) that what you are doing is very very broken. The best way to farm in this game shouldn't be to mindlessly waypoint around getting the best chests/drops in under a minute or two of fighting with no negative consequences.

The idea is to tie getting to these events with actual meaningful game play.

If you don't think that you should have meaningful game play in order to get the best chests in the game; then yes, we are directly at odds with our way of thinking. I can only agree to disagree on this one.

Edited by Ethereal, 14 March 2013 - 03:19 AM.
Response to deleted post

[xarallei]

El Duderino, on 14 March 2013 - 12:26 AM, said:

Correct me if I am wrong, because I am trying to read between the lines a bit here, but it sounds like you basically waypoint around to get golds from events.

If that is the case, then yes, what I am proposing would put a serious hamper in what you are doing, because I feel (and I think if you take a moment to reflect on it) that what you are doing is very very broken. The best way to farm in this game shouldn't be to mindlessly waypoint around getting the best chests/drops in under a minute or two of fighting with no negative consequences.

The idea is to tie getting to these events with actual meaningful game play.

If you don't think that you should have meaningful game play in order to get the best chests in the game; then yes, we are directly at odds with our way of thinking. I can only agree to disagree on this one.

Meaningful gameplay would be Anet fixing scaling issues and making the actual events more interesting. Not making people run through garbage mobs to get to events. That's a lazy ass way to make things "meaningful."

I like dynamic events. They are part of the charm of the game. But Anet does need to up the difficulty of the lower level zone wide ones. They should be on the level of Grenth's difficulty at least.

Edited by xarallei, 14 March 2013 - 12:31 AM.

[El Duderino]

xarallei, on 14 March 2013 - 12:29 AM, said:

Meaningful gameplay would be Anet fixing scaling issues and making the actual events more interesting. Not making people run through garbage mobs to get to events. That's a lazy ass way to make things "meaningful."

So adding more hitpoints is more meaningful than being part of a story to get to a boss?

It would still be meaningful to waypoint in to fight a boss with out doing any actual real work to get to the boss?

[xarallei]

El Duderino, on 14 March 2013 - 12:31 AM, said:

So adding more hitpoints is more meaningful than being part of a story to get to a boss?

It would still be meaningful to waypoint in to fight a boss with out doing any actual real work to get to the boss?

I think we really do need to agree to disagree. I'm sorry I don't find trash mobs meaningful. I want the actual BOSS fights to be meaningful. And no, not Anet's just adding hit points. The fights need more mechanics. Again, there is the time issue with me. I want to jump into the events, not fighting trash mobs.

[Al Shamari]

All the comments in this thread about adding more waypoints, it's obvious that people are just begging for "Easy Mode" which is quite a shame. They want loot and they want to be able to get it in the easiest, quickest way possible. This is obvious from the replies in this thread, as well as the formation of Warrior/Guardian/Mesmer only "speed clear" groups. That's probably the direction this game will go, whether we like it or not.

[El Duderino]

xarallei, on 14 March 2013 - 12:33 AM, said:

I think we really do need to agree to disagree. I'm sorry I don't find trash mobs meaningful. I want the actual BOSS fights to be meaningful. And no, not Anet's just adding hit points. The fights need more mechanics. Again, there is the time issue with me. I want to jump into the events, not fighting trash mobs.

That's cool. I don't think there are many ways to make the boss fight all that more interesting, which may be part of the problem.

If event system were better in general and less predictable and static like they are now, then I probably wouldn't ever had the feelings that I do now which brought me to the waypoint conclusion.

I do appreciate that you think the boss events aren't very well done yet.

[xarallei]

Al Shamari, on 14 March 2013 - 12:36 AM, said:

All the comments in this thread about adding more waypoints, it's obvious that people are just begging for "Easy Mode" which is quite a shame. They want loot and they want to be able to get it in the easiest, quickest way possible. This is obvious from the replies in this thread, as well as the formation of Warrior/Guardian/Mesmer only "speed clear" groups. That's probably the direction this game will go, whether we like it or not.

We're not talking about adding more way points. In fact, I don't want more. I think there are enough. OP wants to take away way points and that's what I argue against. I'd be all for Anet raising the difficulty of the large bosses. That would be great. I am simply against things that are just a waste of time like running to the boss. I don't consider that begging for easy mode. I consider that saving time.

El Duderino, on 14 March 2013 - 12:38 AM, said:

That's cool. I don't think there are many ways to make the boss fight all that more interesting, which may be part of the problem.

If event system were better in general and less predictable and static like they are now, then I probably wouldn't ever had the feelings that I do now which brought me to the waypoint conclusion.

I do appreciate that you think the boss events aren't very well done yet.

Idk, there's got to be a way to spice things up. They just have to keep working on it. There must be a greater chance of failure. As it is the majority of the events always succeed and people expect it so they don't put much effort into these things. The only exception are some of the Orr events. Which is why I said the difficulty should be raised to at least Orr levels. That's the very least they can do.

Edited by xarallei, 14 March 2013 - 12:43 AM.