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Quantifying fun: Checklist vs. Experience


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#1 El Duderino

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 01:43 PM

So, I had this thought in another thread and though it deserved its own thread. I suggested many waypoints be removed (which isn't the point of this thread) and people said they wouldn't be able to get as many things done during their limited time in game.

Furthermore, many people have likened their experience in GW2 to a giant checklist, which means that they keep trying to figure out how fast they can get things done.

So, my question is this:

Doesn't it seem strangle to quantify our fun in a game by the number of things we can do rather than the experience we have doing those things?

Basically, if you log in to have fun - and the content you play, regardless of how much you can do in a session, is fun - then isn't that good enough?

#2 Lordkrall

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 01:46 PM

But what if you have limited time and can't get to those things you want to do because you don't have the time to run across half the world?

Not everyone plays for the journey, some simply want the destination.

#3 El Duderino

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 01:54 PM

View PostLordkrall, on 16 March 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

But what if you have limited time and can't get to those things you want to do because you don't have the time to run across half the world?

Not everyone plays for the journey, some simply want the destination.

I specifically said that this thread is not about waypoints. It is about the red question in the OP.

Do you have a comment on that or not?

#4 Lordkrall

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 01:56 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 16 March 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

I specifically said that this thread is not about waypoints. It is about the red question in the OP.

Do you have a comment on that or not?

Did you read the post you quoted?

It quite clearly answers the red question.

But I'll repeat it:

Not everyone plays for the journey (as in doing stuff out in the world or exploring), some simply want the destination (such as Dungeons).

#5 El Duderino

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 02:01 PM

View PostLordkrall, on 16 March 2013 - 01:56 PM, said:

Did you read the post you quoted?

It quite clearly answers the red question.

But I'll repeat it:

Not everyone plays for the journey (as in doing stuff out in the world or exploring), some simply want the destination (such as Dungeons).

I guess I don't see how the journey relates to people thinking that doing more things is intrinsically more fun vs. doing one thing that is fun. I think you are unable to separate the waypoint thread and this thread.

However, since you mention dungeons, let me ask you: do you need to do three dungeons in a day, or if you only have time for one, is that enough? Is it about HOW many dungeons you can do in a day or the content of the dungeons that satisfies your "fun factor"?

#6 Desild

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 02:04 PM

I wanted to do dungeons for fun. Yeah. I remember doing stuff for fun in Guild Wars. But that was when I was decked with everything my heart desired and could focus on the things I enjoyed, and do everything there was to be done (often with stupid handicaps, like, using balanced teams or protection monks).

But now? I have to constantly be counting money, count my laurels like they were pennys to save them for gear I don't even need but should. Or working painstakingly for cosmetics that have insane requisites beyone my meager ability to gather currency. Would I really stop playing if I got my Foefire weapon a month ago? Or did I really had to do Arah twenty six times to deck myself in the coolest armor ever, when I could do it in six and continue running for the heck of it, like I'm doing right now? And do Ectos all have to come from stupid items that sometimes refuse to drop?

Wha happened to Anet I loved and cared for? Where did they go? And who are those imposters that took their place...

#7 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 02:04 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 16 March 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

Basically, if you log in to have fun - and the content you play, regardless of how much you can do in a session, is fun - then isn't that good enough?

I'd say it's much harder to play that way in games that are heavily reward-driven. For instance, I log into Orcs Must Die! and do a level or two and it doesn't matter how many skulls I get, because ultimately skulls don't mean much. On the other hand, in games such as GW2, my lvl 50 guy can't lvl 60 content and it will take much longer for me to be able to do it, so this burden of needing to gain a level or get better gear is much heavier.
Bad reward-driven games just give too many incentives to play a certain way to disregard them as easily as you can in better reward-driven games or games that are actually less reward-driven.

#8 Menehune

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 02:48 PM

If there are things in the game that I enjoy doing, I want to do as much of it as I can. Wouldn't you? If there is some mechanic or removal of a mechanic that reduces the amount of enjoyable content that one could otherwise do in a limited span of time, then ofc one wouldn't be happy about it. Hardly anyone would. Is that so suprising?

View PostRitualist, on 16 March 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

I'd say it's much harder to play that way in games that are heavily reward-driven. For instance, I log into Orcs Must Die! and do a level or two and it doesn't matter how many skulls I get, because ultimately skulls don't mean much. On the other hand, in games such as GW2, my lvl 50 guy can't lvl 60 content and it will take much longer for me to be able to do it, so this burden of needing to gain a level or get better gear is much heavier.
Bad reward-driven games just give too many incentives to play a certain way to disregard them as easily as you can in better reward-driven games or games that are actually less reward-driven.

GW2 offers rewards. It's the players that are reward *driven*. You can't blame ArenaNet for putting desirable rewards in the game after so many QQ threads about rewards not being rewarding enough blah blah blah.  Not worth doing content x blah blah blah. Ofc, the game isn't going to just drop the rewaards in your inventory when you log on, you're actually going to have to do something to get those rewards.  Oh evil ArenaNet is adding grind QQ!

Your level 50 character can't do level 60 content? Oh what a surprise. Your GW level 5 character couldn't do level 15 content either. It's been known for more that a year before launch that GW2 would have more levels, that the leveling curve would be flattened and the aim was for average time to level of about 90 minutes. There was plenty of speculation, pretty accurate as it turns out, that a "reasonable" time to ding 80 would be around 80 - 100 hours. Also plenty of speculation about how much play time GW2 would offer for the price compared to other MMOs and SP RPGs. Again, ArenaNet is damned if they do and damned if they don't. No rewards, "nobody" plays. (probably a few would still play, but not many). Add rewards with requirement for earning them, QQ GW2 is reward driven and grindy. QQ rage ArenaNet is FORCING me to ...

Blech!

#9 El Duderino

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 02:57 PM

View PostMenehune, on 16 March 2013 - 02:48 PM, said:

If there are things in the game that I enjoy doing, I want to do as much of it as I can. Wouldn't you? If there is some mechanic or removal of a mechanic that reduces the amount of enjoyable content that one could otherwise do in a limited span of time, then ofc one wouldn't be happy about it. Hardly anyone would. Is that so suprising?

That's not surprising at all. But if they didn't have time to everything they wanted in a session, why would they decide to quit? If the content is that good, why does it matter how many times you can do it in a session?

When I play Madden online and only have time for 1 game - I still feel that I had fun and I will still fire up the game tomorrow regardless of whether I have time for 1 game or 2 or 3.

View PostMenehune, on 16 March 2013 - 02:48 PM, said:

No rewards, "nobody" plays. (probably a few would still play, but not many). Add rewards with requirement for earning them, QQ GW2 is reward driven and grindy. QQ rage ArenaNet is FORCING me to ...

GW1 survived for 7 years without vertical gear progession or any rewards outside of cosmetics. So, the No Rewards, Nobody Plays is a REALLY bad argument.

#10 infisio

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 03:13 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 16 March 2013 - 02:57 PM, said:

That's not surprising at all. But if they didn't have time to everything they wanted in a session, why would they decide to quit? If the content is that good, why does it matter how many times you can do it in a session?

Maybe I missed something in the thread, but who said people were quitting because they couldn't get their checklist done? Was this something from the waypoints thread?

I also have a checklist, but it's not about getting the whole list done in one session.  There are so many things I enjoy doing in the game that I want to be able to do a little bit of each sometime within the week. (Our guild sets up "themed nights" - WvW, Fractals, Guild Missions - so I don't usually have a problems getting a little of each with my fun guildies).  

I think I understand what you're saying - some people have 1.) 3 runs of CoF for Gold 2.) 3 dragons for rares 3.) Dailies  4.) 2 Fractals run for the backpack - and that, to me, doesn't sound like fun.  The only thing I try to get done every day is the dailies.

Personally, there is so much in this game that is fun to do that I couldn't possibly do all of it in one session, so therefore, if i only have time for one dungeon or 2 pieces of my PS, then I'm okay with that.

#11 El Duderino

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 03:17 PM

View Postinfisio, on 16 March 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

Maybe I missed something in the thread, but who said people were quitting because they couldn't get their checklist done? Was this something from the waypoints thread?

I also have a checklist, but it's not about getting the whole list done in one session.  There are so many things I enjoy doing in the game that I want to be able to do a little bit of each sometime within the week. (Our guild sets up "themed nights" - WvW, Fractals, Guild Missions - so I don't usually have a problems getting a little of each with my fun guildies).  

I think I understand what you're saying - some people have 1.) 3 runs of CoF for Gold 2.) 3 dragons for rares 3.) Dailies  4.) 2 Fractals run for the backpack - and that, to me, doesn't sound like fun.  The only thing I try to get done every day is the dailies.

Personally, there is so much in this game that is fun to do that I couldn't possibly do all of it in one session, so therefore, if i only have time for one dungeon or 2 pieces of my PS, then I'm okay with that.

Yes, there were a few posters that said if it took them longer to do things, they would probably stop doing them.

But, yes, I am like you. There is enough stuff for me to do in the short time I get to play each night, that I leave the game still wanting to finish more things. But, that doesn't detract from the fun I had while I played or the fact that I will fire up the game tomorrow to get around to doing more things, whether it is levelling my elementalist or playing WvW or, if I'm lucky, both.

However, the AMOUNT of things I get done during the game is not the reason I play or have fun - it is the EXPERIENCE I have, that makes me have fun. The AMOUNT of things I get done is just an added bonus.

#12 Menehune

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 03:30 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 16 March 2013 - 02:57 PM, said:

That's not surprising at all. But if they didn't have time to everything they wanted in a session, why would they decide to quit? If the content is that good, why does it matter how many times you can do it in a session?

When I play Madden online and only have time for 1 game - I still feel that I had fun and I will still fire up the game tomorrow regardless of whether I have time for 1 game or 2 or 3.



GW1 survived for 7 years without vertical gear progession or any rewards outside of cosmetics. So, the No Rewards, Nobody Plays is a REALLY bad argument.

I think it's just hyperbole when some say they would quit. I am sure that not many would actually quit and any that do would do so for pretty specific reasons like maybe they like doing dungeons but never have the time to complete one. In such a case, why bother staying with the game if nothing else appeals? Admittedly a pretty drastic and rare case, but I think you get my meaning. How would you feel if a mechanic were added to or removed from Madden that increased the time needed to finish a game and the time you could play was less that that? Would you continue to try playing in the hope that you could some how some day finish a game?

Who mentioned anything about gear progression? I thought we were talking about rewards in general, not necessarily stat improvement. Since cosmetics *are* rewards, GW *did* offer rewards, if "only" cosmetics so people weren't playing for nothing.  Did you get your obi armor in GW? If you did, congratulations. You were rewarded with something that did not give you any advantage over others for putting in a lot of effort in playing the game.  I never did, even after a bit over 2000 hours. Never liked the looks of it. I played for other things like collecting black pearls in the Jade Sea. :P

#13 El Duderino

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 03:46 PM

View PostMenehune, on 16 March 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

I think it's just hyperbole when some say they would quit. I am sure that not many would actually quit and any that do would do so for pretty specific reasons like maybe they like doing dungeons but never have the time to complete one. In such a case, why bother staying with the game if nothing else appeals? Admittedly a pretty drastic and rare case, but I think you get my meaning. How would you feel if a mechanic were added to or removed from Madden that increased the time needed to finish a game and the time you could play was less that that? Would you continue to try playing in the hope that you could some how some day finish a game?

Who mentioned anything about gear progression? I thought we were talking about rewards in general, not necessarily stat improvement. Since cosmetics *are* rewards, GW *did* offer rewards, if "only" cosmetics so people weren't playing for nothing.  Did you get your obi armor in GW? If you did, congratulations. You were rewarded with something that did not give you any advantage over others for putting in a lot of effort in playing the game.  I never did, even after a bit over 2000 hours. Never liked the looks of it. I played for other things like collecting black pearls in the Jade Sea. :P

Two quick things, I agree that fun things are fun and doing more fun things is more fun. But, taking away the idea of making things take longer, there was definitely a sentiment of, I want to burn through things to get to the reward and I won't be happy unless I get X rewards in Y amount of time - instead of, I play this game because it is fun, not because I need to get X amount of rewards in Y time - which is a major paradigm shift from GW2 where there was very little of being able to get X rewards in Y time. Instead, you had rewards in GW2, but they took a long time to get and they were merely cosmetic, so it didn't matter that it took a long time to get.

That kind of plays to the 2nd part of the discussion. Rewards in GW2 are really checklist items, so it does drive you to want to get them in X amount of time. Want CoF exotic armor? Well, run CoF (do the math) number of times. Want ascended gear, do FoTM or dailies X amount of time. There is a key difference in that GW1 you rewards couldn't really be worked on in the same mathematical way as they can be in GW2. Sure, you needed to get stuff for FoW armor (I never liked the look personally, but I did have 15k for all my characters), but getting that stuff didn't require a checklist of how many time you needed to run a specific dungeon or event. It just took time, patience and a little luck.

#14 Featherman

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 04:01 PM

Relevant:


These guys explain it better than I can.

This also explains why poorly done fluff content used to gate things and can be so annoying..

Edited by Featherman, 16 March 2013 - 04:04 PM.


#15 Uhhsam

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 04:17 PM

I think the emphasis on map completion plays into it a bit.  In GW1, map completion was only necessary for titles that few people really cared about.  In GW2, it's required for making a legendary and you get reminded that it's something you should do with every loading screen and visit to the world map.  That it's featured more prominently in the user interface and overall game experience than even the main story line makes completing the map checklist seem like the primary goal for GW2.  Anet has done a good job in showing that you can convince people that fighting dragons is boring and that it's way more rewarding to turn grey boxes orange.

Edited by Uhhsam, 16 March 2013 - 04:18 PM.


#16 infisio

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 04:17 PM

That video was quite educational - that's for posting it!

View PostUhhsam, on 16 March 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:

I think the emphasis on map completion plays into it a bit.  In GW1, map completion was only necessary for titles that few people really cared about.  In GW2, it's required for making a legendary and you get reminded that it's something you should do with every loading screen and visit to the world map.  That it's featured more prominently in the user interface and overall game experience than even the main story line makes completing the map checklist seem like the primary goal for GW2.

I think it's important to remember that intrinsic vs. extrinsic can be quite subjective.  I found world completion very intrinsically rewarding (until I got to the WvW part).  I really enjoyed exploring every part of the world and seeing what the developers had created.  So the 2 Gifts of exploration I got for completion were intrinsic rewards 'for me.'  If I wanted to make a 3rd Legendary and had to do world completion all over again, then it moves into the extrinsic realm.  

After watching that video I realize that there is a good portion of both I and E rewards in the game for me, but my I satisfaction outweighs the E.

Edited by infisio, 16 March 2013 - 04:22 PM.


#17 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 04:24 PM

View PostMenehune, on 16 March 2013 - 02:48 PM, said:

Blech!


The tone of your post got me so worked up that almost I missed the fact that that you are basically agreeing with everything I said. (There are cases where you seem to be disagreeing, but those seem to be just badly worded sentences or you simply do not understand what you are saying, for instance, A.Net implementing ADDITIONAL rewards seems to be proof for you that the game isn't reward-driven.)

#18 Menehune

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 04:45 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 16 March 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

Two quick things, I agree that fun things are fun and doing more fun things is more fun. But, taking away the idea of making things take longer, there was definitely a sentiment of, I want to burn through things to get to the reward and I won't be happy unless I get X rewards in Y amount of time - instead of, I play this game because it is fun, not because I need to get X amount of rewards in Y time - which is a major paradigm shift from GW2 where there was very little of being able to get X rewards in Y time. Instead, you had rewards in GW2, but they took a long time to get and they were merely cosmetic, so it didn't matter that it took a long time to get.

That kind of plays to the 2nd part of the discussion. Rewards in GW2 are really checklist items, so it does drive you to want to get them in X amount of time. Want CoF exotic armor? Well, run CoF (do the math) number of times. Want ascended gear, do FoTM or dailies X amount of time. There is a key difference in that GW1 you rewards couldn't really be worked on in the same mathematical way as they can be in GW2. Sure, you needed to get stuff for FoW armor (I never liked the look personally, but I did have 15k for all my characters), but getting that stuff didn't require a checklist of how many time you needed to run a specific dungeon or event. It just took time, patience and a little luck.

There were a couple of posts that could be interpreted that way, but I don't recall any of them specifically mentioning rewards. My impression is that most of the posts were more about being annoyed by being delayed by having to fight through trash mobs. You mentioned helping a guidie, but there in GW, helping involved meeting at an outpost and going out together.Apples and oranges comparison there. Ignoring the fact that GW doesn't allow it, If a guildie was in an explorable area and called for help, you might fight through tons of trash mobs to reach the guildie, but for a random request for help in map chat?

Wait a minute. Because I would like to eventually get T3 racial armor, crafted exotics and a few other shinies, that means I play the game to tick off items on a checklist? I need karma for some of what I want. I need mats for crafting. I need gold for some other stuff. By that line of reasoning, every reward in every game is a checklist item. 60 plat, 350 cloth, 35 bolts of silk and 70 jadite shards for elite Luxon armor. Looks like a check list to me. Yep. Oh wait. It's not the same mathematical way. RNG works different in GW2, there wasn't any RNG in GW. Oh wait ...

#19 Menehune

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 04:52 PM

View PostRitualist, on 16 March 2013 - 04:24 PM, said:

The tone of your post got me so worked up that almost I missed the fact that that you are basically agreeing with everything I said. (There are cases where you seem to be disagreeing, but those seem to be just badly worded sentences or you simply do not understand what you are saying, for instance, A.Net implementing ADDITIONAL rewards seems to be proof for you that the game isn't reward-driven.)

The point of my post was to contradict your constant claim that GW2 is reward driven. You were using ArenaNet adding rewards to prove that. I say again, somewhat rephrased, GW2 is not reward driven, it merely offers rewards. It is the players that are reward driven, i.e. driven by the need to get rewards and they will do things like grind relentlessly, demand changes, QQ etc. to get the rewards.

#20 El Duderino

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 05:03 PM

View PostMenehune, on 16 March 2013 - 04:45 PM, said:

There were a couple of posts that could be interpreted that way, but I don't recall any of them specifically mentioning rewards. My impression is that most of the posts were more about being annoyed by being delayed by having to fight through trash mobs. You mentioned helping a guidie, but there in GW, helping involved meeting at an outpost and going out together.Apples and oranges comparison there. Ignoring the fact that GW doesn't allow it, If a guildie was in an explorable area and called for help, you might fight through tons of trash mobs to reach the guildie, but for a random request for help in map chat?

Wait a minute. Because I would like to eventually get T3 racial armor, crafted exotics and a few other shinies, that means I play the game to tick off items on a checklist? I need karma for some of what I want. I need mats for crafting. I need gold for some other stuff. By that line of reasoning, every reward in every game is a checklist item. 60 plat, 350 cloth, 35 bolts of silk and 70 jadite shards for elite Luxon armor. Looks like a check list to me. Yep. Oh wait. It's not the same mathematical way. RNG works different in GW2, there wasn't any RNG in GW. Oh wait ...

So you don't see any fundamental difference between grinding coins, karma, influence, guild merits, laurels, skill points, dungeon tokens, badges of honor, and crafting materials which all pretty much take a specific grind, versus some materials and some coins which didn't really take anything specific?

Also, do you honestly think that there isn't a large majority of players that aren't just logging on to farm boss events and then logging off - and those specifically are the people that quantify their fun by the amount of bosses they can kill in x amount of time?

That is what I'm talking about. You can talk around that point all you want, and pretend that it isn't happening and pretend that GW1 and GW2 are alike in terms of gear/reward requirements, but you would be wrong.

View PostMenehune, on 16 March 2013 - 04:52 PM, said:


The point of my post was to contradict your constant claim that GW2 is reward driven. You were using ArenaNet adding rewards to prove that. I say again, somewhat rephrased, GW2 is not reward driven, it merely offers rewards. It is the players that are reward driven, i.e. driven by the need to get rewards and they will do things like grind relentlessly, demand changes, QQ etc. to get the rewards.

Then why does Arena Net keep adding rewards and reward grinds to keep people playing?

#21 Heart Collector

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 05:09 PM

This is an interesting thread because it makes me think about my general experience playing this game.

In the beginning I'd just wander around doing stuff as it came up. It really is the best way to enjoy the game if you're like me and prefer a more laid back gaming experience at this point in your life. I just decided to go one way and maybe do a specific thing, e.g. a daily, and ended up doing something completely different! This, combined with the more natural and intuitive (but admittedly more impersonal) interaction with other players in the world (perfect for a RL introvert or a less than social MMOer) made it real fun for me.

Toward the end of my time with the game (I'm on a break now but will definitely be back at some point as I really enjoyed it despite whatever personal peeves I had with it), I found I was actually playing with a checklist mentality. I didn't really set out to wander and do stuff, I logged in to, say, do my daily and went out of my way to do it. I would get swept away as before on occasion, but it became rarer and rarer.

I think that when the novelty and wonder we all get when playing a new RPG wore off, my checklist side kicked in, or rather, wormed its way in as I have no idea when this shift occured. I didn't feel almost sick in the stomach logging in like I did in my later WoW days and quite early in SWTOR (I literally felt forced to log in at those points, lol)... But I didn't feel the earlier excitement either, and I didn't get that special itch in my fingers (that only gamers can understand) when away from the game.

The truth is that GW2 is a basically a traditional MMO with a very good disguise. This is not a bad thing - if it was bad I'd have dropped it like a hot potato quite early on - but neither is it the best possible thing. I thoroughly enjoyed, and will enjoy again later when I'm done with my hiatus, the game a great deal... It got a lot of things right in my opinion and was worth its price many times over, but it falls a bit short of the "classic" status I reserve for a rare few games :)

#22 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 05:28 PM

View PostMenehune, on 16 March 2013 - 04:52 PM, said:


The point of my post was to contradict your constant claim that GW2 is reward driven. You were using ArenaNet adding rewards to prove that. I say again, somewhat rephrased, GW2 is not reward driven, it merely offers rewards. It is the players that are reward driven, i.e. driven by the need to get rewards and they will do things like grind relentlessly, demand changes, QQ etc. to get the rewards.


The existence of reward-driven players does not negate the existence of reward-driven games. On the contrary, our knowledge of the existence of reward-driven gamers gives a lot of weight to the idea of creating products that will cater to the needs of these players.
And this is GW2 problem, it's just a BIT too good at catering to the desires of reward-driven players. Chasing rewards is the default way to play GW2, with players having the option of opting out of some (the increased vertical progression means there's a lot more mandatory chasing) of this chase (and not being too severely punished for doing so).

#23 Magi

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 05:34 PM

It's funny that threads like this keep popping up. When GW2 released, my entire guild from Aion came over. By Christmas, more than half of my guild went back to Aion because GW2 "wasn't grindy enough." I kid you not. I'm inclined to agree, too. Not that GW2 needs more grind, but that GW2 has relatively little mandatory grind. In Aion, you had to grind AP from PvE instances and open-world combat (the only type of PvP, tbh) in order to stay competitive. The better your gear, the better your PvP damage reduction and PvP damage dealing, and the better your performance vis-à-vis the rest of the pop. It wasn't just a few days of grinding, either. It was weeks. On top of that, the most damaging weapons came from a PvE instance. So you had to grind that instance daily in order to try and get these weapons. Then, before GW2 released, Aion implemented a new patch with an area that was meant for PvP, but had named mobs inside that dropped keys. These keys were used to unlock chests that gave you AP (PvP currency) consumables. After that point, it was pointless to do anything but grind those keys if you wanted efficient AP gain.

GW2 is, by far, one of the least grind-y MMOs out there. Literally none of its content requires you to grind certain rewards in order to be viable. It's 100% left up to player choice. Fractals, you say? Level 10 requires 0 AR to complete so long as you're capable of dodging properly. Jade Maw's Agony is also survivable. Even so, ANet has implemented Ascended Trinkets and Amulets that you gain outside of Fractals which can be slotted with an Infusion. If GW2 was really so gated and grind-y, would they provide diverse means of acquiring gear to suit an individual's preference? No. If anything, the only flaw is that WvW players cannot gain anything but Soldier's exotic gear solely from WvW content.

tl;dr : GW2 has essentially no mandatory grind. If you're grinding, it's because you, as a player, have deemed it necessary.


Edit: I did a research thread a little while ago showing that full Ascended gear was projected to provide something tiny like a 3% stat increase over the Exotic tiers. I haven't been back through it since the new ascended gear released due to lack of time, but I doubt there'll be any significant changes.

Edited by Magi, 16 March 2013 - 05:38 PM.


#24 El Duderino

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 05:44 PM

View PostMagi, on 16 March 2013 - 05:34 PM, said:

tl;dr : GW2 has essentially no mandatory grind. If you're grinding, it's because you, as a player, have deemed it necessary.

You're right. I suppose you could sit around and do nothing. But, once you decide you want to do something, welcome to the grind.

#25 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 06:01 PM

View PostMagi, on 16 March 2013 - 05:34 PM, said:

tl;dr : GW2 has essentially no mandatory grind. If you're grinding, it's because you, as a player, have deemed it necessary.

A.Net defines grind as something that isn't fun and is repetitive. Now, if we look at mandatory content, we'd probably define it as vertical progression in GW games. Power shouldn't be optional in GW games.
And if we look at vertical progression, ascended gear has VERY much the potential to be considered grind. Not only that, if we look at below-80 content, we can see that it's not unusual to have foes rising in power much faster than the players themselves, meaning that the areas themselves are not a sufficient way to keep up with the area itself. Which, once again, widely opens up the door to grind.

So I simply can not agree with the idea that GW2 has no mandatory grind.


EDIT:
I do not disagree with the idea that, in comparison, GW2 is less grindy than a lot of the games, especially MMOs, out there though.

Edited by Ritualist, 16 March 2013 - 06:03 PM.


#26 Kymeric

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 06:02 PM

Maybe it's just my personality.  I tend to approach time IRL with "get my list of things done, then play".  I find it more enjoyable on a Saturday to take care of the chores I need to do early in the morning, so I can do whatever I want the rest of the day without feeling the pull of those things that are not done.

That translates to my MMORPG time, I guess.  Before ascended gear, I just played the game every day, in whatever way I happened to feel like playing.  WvW today? Sure!  Or perhaps I'll go unlock a zone.  Or try to experience one of the dragon battles.  Or do some jumping puzzles.  Hey, I haven't done personal story in a while, think I'll knock a few missions out.

As ascended gear is added, dailies and laurels, I feel the pull of those checklists.  I feel the pull of my gear slots that do not yet have BiS pieces.  It makes me want to get it done, so I can go back to just playing in the world like I used to do.

Yes, I could ignore the pull.  If there had been a low, easily reached power plateau like in GW1, however, I wouldn't have to.

#27 Kymeric

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 06:08 PM

I can agree with this:

View PostRitualist, on 16 March 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

A.Net defines grind as something that isn't fun and is repetitive. Now, if we look at mandatory content, we'd probably define it as vertical progression in GW games. Power shouldn't be optional in GW games.
And if we look at vertical progression, ascended gear has VERY much the potential to be considered grind.

But definitely not this:

Quote

Not only that, if we look at below-80 content, we can see that it's not unusual to have foes rising in power much faster than the players themselves, meaning that the areas themselves are not a sufficient way to keep up with the area itself. Which, once again, widely opens up the door to grind.

Levelling two toons to 80, I was always overlevelled.  I had to skip whole zones to get to content that was my level.  Experience comes so easily and quickly in this game.

That's part of what makes for such a big disconnect come level 80.  The devs say that the game is supposed to be the same before and after level cap, but that's no longer true.  Up to level 80, you can do anything other than sPvP and you continue to level in spite of yourself.  You get more than enough money to keep yourself geared appropriately.

Then, at 80, you start running the same content over and over again to progress toward a full set of gear.  It's like it's suddenly a different game. Which is exactly what they said they don't want.

#28 El Duderino

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 06:11 PM

View PostRitualist, on 16 March 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

Levelling two toons to 80, I was always overlevelled.  I had to skip whole zones to get to content that was my level.  Experience comes so easily and quickly in this game.

Lol, I actually experienced quite the opposite recently. I had cleared Queensdale on my Elementalist and went to the next map to get killed fairly quickly. I was like WTF? So I ran myself down to the next map in order to keep leveling.

I think we can definitely say that leveling is inconsistent at best. There is very little fluidity of leveling vs. content.

#29 Menehune

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 06:25 PM

View PostRitualist, on 16 March 2013 - 05:28 PM, said:

The existence of reward-driven players does not negate the existence of reward-driven games. On the contrary, our knowledge of the existence of reward-driven gamers gives a lot of weight to the idea of creating products that will cater to the needs of these players.
And this is GW2 problem, it's just a BIT too good at catering to the desires of reward-driven players. Chasing rewards is the default way to play GW2, with players having the option of opting out of some (the increased vertical progression means there's a lot more mandatory chasing) of this chase (and not being too severely punished for doing so).

We reach different conclusions from the same set of facts. You place the blame with the game/devs, I place it with the players. Slippery as analogies can be I'll ask the following: does the fact that drugs of different forms and "desirability" exist and are offered by pushers mean that you have to become an addict? Please don't get sidetracked by the fact that drugs and dealing are, in most places" illegal. We have 2 things that exist, are being offered and sought after. With your reasoning, the pusher is to blame for the user seeking the drug when he didn't have to seek it in the 1st place. If you believe that is true, then we'll have to agree to disagree because our opinions are diametrically opposed.

#30 El Duderino

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 06:47 PM

View PostMenehune, on 16 March 2013 - 06:25 PM, said:

We reach different conclusions from the same set of facts. You place the blame with the game/devs, I place it with the players. Slippery as analogies can be I'll ask the following: does the fact that drugs of different forms and "desirability" exist and are offered by pushers mean that you have to become an addict? Please don't get sidetracked by the fact that drugs and dealing are, in most places" illegal. We have 2 things that exist, are being offered and sought after. With your reasoning, the pusher is to blame for the user seeking the drug when he didn't have to seek it in the 1st place. If you believe that is true, then we'll have to agree to disagree because our opinions are diametrically opposed.

It wasn't the players that made 15 different sets of currencies in this game. Almost every currency has a specific grind attached to it. If the grind wasn't made by the developers, then why all the currencies?

I suppose we can sit around and do nothing in the game and not grind, but if you want to do much of anything, if you want to equip your character with anything better than rares, you pretty much need to grind to play the game.




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