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A discussion on opinions about the game


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#1 Haggus

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 02:40 PM

I am a fan of the game.  Yes, there are some things which can be improved.  Any game has these.  However, I believe that, technically, the game came out with pretty good polish, especially when compared to other game releases.  

I also understand there are those who don't share this opinion.  Some things in the game may not be oriented to their style game play.  Certain aspects of the meta may be too hard, or make the game too easy for them.  Some aspects may just appear as filler, or obstacles to their enjoyment of the game.  While I may disagree, these opinions are justified, as they are opinions based on individual experience; or they may be based on legitimate technical flaws, which should be adjusted by the devs(and, many times, are adjusted/fixed).  Most of these people even enjoy the game; and they are just trying to help the game be the best it can be, by pointing out things that, sometimes, can be legitimate fixes.

What I don't get is the "jilted lover" poster.  "Anet lied to us! They said they were giving us X game, and they gave us Y!  You can't trust them!  You should /rage quit!  Like me!"  

This is like a person who just ended a bad relationship, and can't handle the fact that, sometimes, that person you were with just doesn't turn out the way you thought in the beginning.  Then you see them with someone else; and they are happier together than you were.  You see them with their friends, just as good buddies as ever.  They've moved on, and you can't handle it.  Soooo.... you blog, post on Facebook, text the friends you two shared, trying to convince the world what a horrible person they are, and saying how you can't understand anyone being able to enjoy the company of this person.  Eventually, people start avoiding you, or rolling their eyes when they see you, tired of hearing the same arguments every time you open your mouth; and they wonder why you can't just move on.

First, Arena Net didn't lie to you.  In many game manifestos, betas, and other opinions, they stated exactly what kind of game they would release.  Plenty of people have played the game, and reviewed the game.  They've posted tons of game play videos on Youtube.  It's not like you didn't have a huge heads-up on what the game would be.  If you bought the game before seeing any of this stuff, that's your fault for not doing your due diligence.  The thing is, if you were objective about it, the game is giving just what Arena Net said it would deliver. That's a lot better than what that dude/gal gave you in their match.com profile.

Second, acting like this isn't accomplishing what you want.  Just the opposite - it makes you look like a rabid zealot who can't get over the fact that something didn't turn out the way you thought it would.  saying it over and over...and over(and over...) doesn't help.  It just makes others tired of listening to you.  If at all, they will read your posts just for the humor value, to talk about with their friends.  People start to cringe whenever they see your picture(the displayed posting rank of which just shows how much you can't get over it).

This isn't saying you shouldn't post.  I'm just giving an opinion, saying what it looks like to me, and possibly to many others.  Heck, I probably look like I'm preaching, or am out of touch with what is the staple of forum discourse.  Honestly, though, on Guru I see so many well-thought posts and helpful threads that ones like the above truly stand out; that's a credit to the mods and to our community.  I'm just posting for another good discussion, and to see if what I see is just my own loopy viewpoint, or if it is shared by others.

#2 El Duderino

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 02:49 PM



Quote

Mike O'Brien: "We founded ArenaNet to innovate, so Guild Wars 2 is our opportunity to question everything, to make a game that defies existing conventions. If you love MMOs, you'll want to check out Guild Wars 2, and if you hate MMOs, you'll really want to check out Guild Wars 2. Guild Wars 2 takes everything you love about Guild Wars 1 and puts it into a persistent world that's got more active combat, a fully-branching, personalized storyline, a new event system to get people playing together, and still no monthly fees."

Daniel Dociu: "The look of Guild Wars 2 is stylized. We're going for a painterly, illustrated aesthetic. Everything in our world feels handcrafted and artisanal. We treat our environments as if they are characters themselves."

Colin Johanson: "When you look at the art in our game, you say 'Wow, that's visually stunning. I've never seen anything like that before,' and then when you play the combat in our game, you say 'Wow, that's incredible. I've never seen anything like that.' In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks, occasionally, that you get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. 'I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again.' That's great. We just don't want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun. We want to change the way that people view combat."

Ree Soesbee: "As a structure, the MMO has lost the ability to make the player feel like a hero. Everybody around you is doing the same thing you are doing. The boss you just killed respawns ten minutes later. It doesn't care that I'm there."

Colin Johanson: "You'll get quest text that tells you 'I'm being attacked by these horrible things,' and it's not actually happening. In the game world, these horrible centaurs are standing around in a field, and you get a quest step that says 'Go kill ten centaurs.' We don't think that's OK. You see what's happening. You see centaurs running to the trading post, knocking the walls down, burning and killing the merchants."

Ree Soesbee: "We do not want to build the same MMO everyone else is building, and in Guild Wars 2, it's your world. It's your story. You affect things around you in a very permanent way."

Colin Johanson: "Cause and effect: A single decision made by a player cascades out in a chain of events."

Ree Soesbee: "You're meeting new people whom you will then see again. You're rescuing a village that will stay rescued, who then remember you. The most important thing in any game should be the player. We have built a game for them."

I know you said you think the manifesto didn't lie. Other people would suggest quite the opposite. I red-bolded the parts that are the typical suspects in these threads.

Last, it is our prerogative to discuss the game however we feel. Many of the people here making complaints still play the game. We are allowed to voice our opinion. You trying to diminish that by saying we are like jilted lovers is your opinion, and it has no factual bearing on whether we can express our opinions or not. If you don't like it, you don't have to read about it.

#3 Lordkrall

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 02:55 PM

I find people that keeps referring to the manifest to prove that ArenaNet were lying quite sad.

I am not a native english speaker but even I know that a manifest =! 100% unchangeable truth. A manifest is a plan and a wish, and anyone with any kinds of experience in life would know that plans and wishes quite often don't end up the way we set from the start.

There are also quite a few of us that do not see how they have lied at all in the manifest though, even if you took it as an absolute unchangeable truth.

#4 El Duderino

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 03:10 PM

View PostLordkrall, on 16 March 2013 - 02:55 PM, said:

There are also quite a few of us that do not see how they have lied at all in the manifest though, even if you took it as an absolute unchangeable truth.

I'll help you out:

1. Guild Wars 2 is our opportunity to question everything - This isn't so much a lie as a reason why nobody should be upset when we, the customers, question everything as well.

2. Guild Wars 2 takes everything you love about Guild Wars 1 and puts it into a persistent world - Besides the world of Tyria, there is absolutely nothing in this game that is like GW1 in any way shape or form.

3. We just don't want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. - Almost everything in Guild Wars 2 is a grind. Leveling is a massive grind, dungeon tokens are are a grind, badges of honor are a grind, ascended gear is a grind, legendaries are a grind, dailies are a grind, monthlies are a grind, karma is a grind. What in this game isn't a grind?

4. As a structure, the MMO has lost the ability to make the player feel like a hero. - Two word. Screw Traeherne.

5. The boss you just killed respawns ten minutes later. - http://guildwarstemple.com/dragontimer/


I seriously don't believe anyone is that blind as to not see any contradictions between the manifesto and the actual game.

#5 Burch84

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 03:43 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 16 March 2013 - 03:10 PM, said:

I'll help you out:

1. Guild Wars 2 is our opportunity to question everything - This isn't so much a lie as a reason why nobody should be upset when we, the customers, question everything as well.

2. Guild Wars 2 takes everything you love about Guild Wars 1 and puts it into a persistent world - Besides the world of Tyria, there is absolutely nothing in this game that is like GW1 in any way shape or form.

3. We just don't want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. - Almost everything in Guild Wars 2 is a grind. Leveling is a massive grind, dungeon tokens are are a grind, badges of honor are a grind, ascended gear is a grind, legendaries are a grind, dailies are a grind, monthlies are a grind, karma is a grind. What in this game isn't a grind?

4. As a structure, the MMO has lost the ability to make the player feel like a hero. - Two word. Screw Traeherne.

5. The boss you just killed respawns ten minutes later. - http://guildwarstemple.com/dragontimer/


I seriously don't believe anyone is that blind as to not see any contradictions between the manifesto and the actual game.

I agree with this and is one reason I am no longer playing the game.  GW2 has gone to the DOGS!

Edit: sorry dogs, I should have said CATS.

Edited by Burch84, 16 March 2013 - 03:46 PM.


#6 Uhhsam

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 03:45 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 16 March 2013 - 03:10 PM, said:

Leveling is a massive grind

To quote any of a number of bandits, "You're kidding, right?"

#7 Lordkrall

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 03:47 PM

View PostUhhsam, on 16 March 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

To quote any of a number of bandits, "You're kidding, right?"

No, he is most likely serious.
Keep in mind that some people think that everything that is not given to them the moment they log in the first time is a grind.

#8 El Duderino

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 03:48 PM

View PostUhhsam, on 16 March 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

To quote any of a number of bandits, "You're kidding, right?"

You don't think leveling is a massive grind?

#9 Arewn

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 04:06 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 16 March 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:

You don't think leveling is a massive grind?
Depends on your gaming background.
People from GW1 usually think its a big grind. People from many other MMORPG generally think it's fast and painless.

What's more, what Arena Net wanted to do in regards to grind is eliminate forced grind where possible, which they largely succeeded in. Just by playing the game you get everything you need to continue playing. You only need to grind for special things.

Edited by Arewn, 16 March 2013 - 04:09 PM.


#10 El Duderino

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 04:16 PM

View PostArewn, on 16 March 2013 - 04:06 PM, said:

Just by playing the game you get everything you need to continue playing.

I didn't realize this wasn't the case in other games.

#11 Coren

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 04:20 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 16 March 2013 - 03:10 PM, said:



I'll help you out:

1. Guild Wars 2 is our opportunity to question everything - This isn't so much a lie as a reason why nobody should be upset when we, the customers, question everything as well.

2. Guild Wars 2 takes everything you love about Guild Wars 1 and puts it into a persistent world - Besides the world of Tyria, there is absolutely nothing in this game that is like GW1 in any way shape or form.

3. We just don't want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. - Almost everything in Guild Wars 2 is a grind. Leveling is a massive grind, dungeon tokens are are a grind, badges of honor are a grind, ascended gear is a grind, legendaries are a grind, dailies are a grind, monthlies are a grind, karma is a grind. What in this game isn't a grind?

4. As a structure, the MMO has lost the ability to make the player feel like a hero. - Two word. Screw Traeherne.

5. The boss you just killed respawns ten minutes later. - http://guildwarstemple.com/dragontimer/


I seriously don't believe anyone is that blind as to not see any contradictions between the manifesto and the actual game.

I asked Martin face to face in gamescom 2011 about max stats items being easy to find, and he told to my face and all other assembled people that getting max stat items would be easily found according to your level. He even compared to the crystal desert in GW1 where you already could find some. Guess that went out the window.

As for the hero part... I never despised an NPC as much as Trahearne. Kinda feels like one team took care of personal story from levels 1 to.20, an other from 21 to 40 etc... The moment I saw Trahearne taking over the war effort, I thought that's it... I'll be on the sidelines while this monotone broccoli hordes the spotlight. Let me return to my rich estate in divinity's reach, you won't even notice I'm gone.

Loved the personal story from level 1 to.20, because it was about me, not the aforementioned vegetable.

#12 Lordkrall

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 04:23 PM

View PostCoren, on 16 March 2013 - 04:20 PM, said:

I asked Martin face to face in gamescom 2011 about max stats items being easy to find, and he told to my face and all other assembled people that getting max stat items would be easily found according to your level. He even compared to the crystal desert in GW1 where you already could find some. Guess that went out the window.

Ah yes, playing the game for 30 minutes per day is really hard, so I suppose all those Ascended gear pieces are not considered "easily found".

#13 Arewn

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 04:26 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 16 March 2013 - 04:16 PM, said:

I didn't realize this wasn't the case in other games.
By that I meant, for example, that in GW2 you can grind CoF till your eyes bleed in order to get a full dungeon set but you'll never need to in order to continue playing the content. While in WoW you have to grind dungeons to get gear just so that you can step into a raid, which is their major content type.

#14 Featherman

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 04:27 PM

I hate to say this, but this game smells too strongly of mmo conventions. They didn't reinvent many of these conventions either; they simply made them a lot more convenient. I'm not saying it's a bad game, just that it's not as revolutionary as they made it out to be. What would make it revolutionary is actually replacing conventions rather than restructuring them for convenience. They were probably  too afraid of deviating from the standards set by WoW and EQ to actually follow through and do so.

As for the manifesto business, they didn't lie but only because of what can be described as word twisting and skulduggery. People bought this game based on the expectations the manifesto built and ANet knows this. Customers whose expectations were betrayed have every right to complain.

Edited by Featherman, 16 March 2013 - 05:40 PM.


#15 El Duderino

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 04:29 PM

View PostArewn, on 16 March 2013 - 04:26 PM, said:

By that I meant, for example, that in GW2 you can grind CoF till your eyes bleed in order to get a full dungeon set but you'll never need to in order to continue playing the content. While in WoW you have to grind dungeons to get gear just so that you can step into a raid, which is their major content type.

I'm sorry then, I thought we were talking about leveling.

View PostFeatherman, on 16 March 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

I hate to say this, but this game smells too strongly of mmo conventions. They didn't reinvent many of these conventions either; they simply made them a lot more convenient. I'm not saying it's a bad game, just that it's not as revolutionary as they made it out to be. What would make it revolutionary is actually replacing conventions rather than restructuring them for convenience. They were probably  too afraid of deviating from the standards set by WoW and EQ to actually follow through and do so.

As for the manifesto business, they didn't lie but only due what can be described as word twisting and skulduggery People bought this game based on the expectations the manifesto built and ANet knows this. Customers whose expectations were betrayed have every right to complain.

Yes, I don't think they lied about their intentions for making the game years before it came out. I just think they did a really bad job of meeting the expectations they created through the manifesto.

It's tough to lie about something 4 years before you actually make it.

#16 Lordkrall

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 04:29 PM

View PostFeatherman, on 16 March 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

As for the manifesto business, they didn't lie but only due what can be described as word twisting and skulduggery People bought this game based on the expectations the manifesto built and ANet knows this. Customers whose expectations were betrayed have every right to complain.

You mean customers that instead of actually looking up a game before buying it and only listening to a MANIFESTO (which is btw a vision, not a fact) are betrayed?
They are not betrayed, they are just stupid for not checking up on things.
Loads of things people complain about was available for viewing long before the game was released.

#17 Featherman

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 04:55 PM

View PostLordkrall, on 16 March 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

You mean customers that instead of actually looking up a game before buying it and only listening to a MANIFESTO (which is btw a vision, not a fact) are betrayed?
They are not betrayed, they are just stupid for not checking up on things.
Loads of things people complain about was available for viewing long before the game was released.
Wow.... that's classy.

Basic principle of marketing games these days is to sell it before it's even produced. That's the very purpose of hype. Companies wouldn't bother to spend so much money on marketing games if it. I wouldn't call people stupid for having expectations that companies can feed off of, I would simply call them people for having that kind of feeling. Now is it ethical to seemingly promise something to these players and then deliver the opposite of it, especially when the promise is what's selling the games these days?

It's hard to say with an actually decent game like GW2, but let's look at something more obvious: Aliens: CM. You don't need me to tell you how terrible that game is, just look it up on metacritic. But it sold well, very well. This was due to hype built up from a demo the game couldn't deliver on. Basically a bait and switch. The demo was selling people based on their expectations and they gave in. Hell, AngryJoe even did a "10 reasons why Aliens:CM will be awesome" video. I'm sure that sold quite a few copies as well.

And also, based on your wording, am I right in assuming you don't disagree with the fact that the hype was used to sell copies?

#18 Cube

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 05:53 PM

"Guild Wars 2 takes everything you love about Guild Wars 1 and puts it into a persistent world "

If that's really what they made GW2 of then it's players like me that they didn't think of. Players who enjoy AB, FA, GvG and HA. Who likes the original skill system and the creativity it gave. Who liked monks and enjoyed playing them and/or having them in the team. Who enjoyed the satisfaction of actual rupting and control. You know, what mesmers used to be before they became cloners or what rangers used to be before they became auto attack short bow lol.

What kind of players where they thinking about? Because I don't feel it was the people that stayed playing Guild Wars that they where thinking of. I feel it was rather a kind of group they where HOPING that would like their new game.

I like GW2 in itself. It's an OK game. Would I be playing if Guild Wars was alive as it was before they came out with GW2? No, I'd be back in GW.  Even thought AB was dead because they left it behind when they updated the rewards I could live with FA and the people there that I enjoyed playing with.

The hype was sooooo overly done I fell right into it lol, bought a CE and everything. I don't regret it, because I don't think you should regret. But I definitely fell for the over hyping.

Edited by Cube, 16 March 2013 - 05:54 PM.


#19 Menehune

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 06:06 PM

Wheeee! Here we go again.

View PostEl Duderino, on 16 March 2013 - 03:10 PM, said:

I'll help you out:

1. Guild Wars 2 is our opportunity to question everything - This isn't so much a lie as a reason why nobody should be upset when we, the customers, question everything as well.

There is a stark difference between "why did they do that at all or in the way they did it. I prefer that they did it another way or left it out." and "that sucks! ArenaNet better fix it the way I say it should be fixed! I know what's best for the game and they better listen to me or the game will die!". There is no reason at all to get upset with the former and every reason to be annoyed with the latter.

2. Guild Wars 2 takes everything you love about Guild Wars 1 and puts it into a persistent world - Besides the world of Tyria, there is absolutely nothing in this game that is like GW1 in any way shape or form.

Purely subjective. What someone loved in GW and if those are in GW2 will vary enormously among players. This statement really cannot be taken that it applies literally to everyone. There were lots of things that I liked in GW, but what I really loved about GW were the world of Tyria itself, the lore and the elementalist and ranger professions. So for me, that statement is spot on.

3. We just don't want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. - Almost everything in Guild Wars 2 is a grind. Leveling is a massive grind, dungeon tokens are are a grind, badges of honor are a grind, ascended gear is a grind, legendaries are a grind, dailies are a grind, monthlies are a grind, karma is a grind. What in this game isn't a grind?

Key word - want. They didn't claim that they were eliminating all grind. They did include optional grind while keeping out mandatory grind to experience content.

4. As a structure, the MMO has lost the ability to make the player feel like a hero. - Two word. Screw Traeherne.

Another subjective view. He was just a figurehead even if he was the one that performed the ritual. It was the player that kept him alive so he could perform the ritual. The figurehead Marshal did the donkey work like organizing Ft. Trinity while the player rolled up his sleeves and mowed down legions of risen. The figurehead always deferred to the player who made all of the decisions.

5. The boss you just killed respawns ten minutes later. - http://guildwarstemple.com/dragontimer/

In most other MMOs the boss just respawns. In GW2 the boss doesn't respawn until the end of a chain of events. That's a significant difference IMO.


Quote

I seriously don't believe anyone is that blind as to not see any contradictions between the manifesto and the actual game.

Whether one sees contradictions between the manifesto and the game depends heavily on individual experience and interpretation of the manifesto. It has nothing to do with being blind to any degree.



#20 El Duderino

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 06:14 PM

View PostMenehune, on 16 March 2013 - 06:06 PM, said:

Wheeee! Here we go again.

Whether one sees contradictions between the manifesto and the game depends heavily on individual experience and interpretation of the manifesto. It has nothing to do with being blind to any degree.

So then spell it out for us. For each bullet point, give me the counter argument.

1. What makes this game so much like GW1?
2. What part of this game doesn't involve grind? And do those parts have enough content that you can play the game without needing to grind?
3. How, exactly, does this game make you feel like a hero?
4. Where are the bosses that don't respawn on a timer?

Just saying you disagree doesn't really give any examples as to why you disagree.

Do you really, deep down, think that someone reading that manifesto (that played GW1) and playing this game would say that the manifesto delivered what it set out to?


EDIT: Sorry, I just realized everything is in the quotes. I will read and reply.

OK, here we go:

1. Why do you get upset how people complain about the game? Is it personally offensive that someone thinks that this game doesn't have the right stuff to stay around for a long time?

2. So, you are saying that what you loved about GW1 was the world and the lore. And that it is subjective. But, the problem is that they made this manifesto, not just for you, but for everyone. And, I would be willing to bet that the world and the lore were not enough to make GW1 the popular game it was. I would be willing to bet that the combat, or the PvP, or the story, or the lack of gear grind, or the content were much major motivating factors than the world and the lore. So, just because you are pleased with the only way GW1 and GW2 are the same, doesn't mean that is what 99% of the people liked about GW1.

Plus, do you honestly think the only thing you liked in GW1 was Tyria and the lore? Why in god's name would you even have bothered to play the game if you didn't like anything else.

3. Please tell me how to play this game and max out gear without grinding? The fact that you can play this game (in a very limited fashion I might add) doesn't mean that the majority of this game isn't designed around grinding. Having 15 different types of currency pretty much makes that a fact.

4. I'm glad you feel like a hero. It is nothing on par with the way we were undeniably heroes in GW1, but it's not that big of a deal really, compared to the rest of the manifesto.

5. This one really made me LOL. No offense, but the fact that bosses are on timers pretty much makes it irrelevant if they spawn after the end of a DE or not. They are on timers! I'm sure that is not what ANet intended when they made the manifesto.

Can you come up with some way of getting around each and every one of those points by discounting the majority of the way people feel and making it all about you? Sure. That is the easy way of doing. But, ask the millions of GW1 players that quite GW2 because it didn't live up to their expectations, which were at least partially based on the manifesto, and you would be in the distinct minority.

Basically, you can say it is subjective all you want, but it would be naive to think that your opinion is the only one that matters. That is why I said you would have to be blind not to recognize the inconsistencies between the manifesto and the game. Not because someone might feel differently, but because it is obvious that many people feel there are differences and the differences are rather easy to see. You just happen to be good at ignoring them completely.

Edited by El Duderino, 16 March 2013 - 06:44 PM.


#21 Menehune

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 09:12 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 16 March 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

...

1. Why do you get upset how people complain about the game? Is it personally offensive that someone thinks that this game doesn't have the right stuff to stay around for a long time?

You didn't notice the difference? It's not what people say, but how they say it that gets on my case.

2. So, you are saying that what you loved about GW1 was the world and the lore. And that it is subjective. But, the problem is that they made this manifesto, not just for you, but for everyone. And, I would be willing to bet that the world and the lore were not enough to make GW1 the popular game it was. I would be willing to bet that the combat, or the PvP, or the story, or the lack of gear grind, or the content were much major motivating factors than the world and the lore. So, just because you are pleased with the only way GW1 and GW2 are the same, doesn't mean that is what 99% of the people liked about GW1.

Plus, do you honestly think the only thing you liked in GW1 was Tyria and the lore? Why in god's name would you even have bothered to play the game if you didn't like anything else.


Read again please. I did say that there were many things i *liked* in GW, but the ones I mentioned I especially loved. I also said that the statement really shouldn't be taken to apply literally to everyone. It just happened to describe my case exactly. Are you reading my posts or just skimming?

3. Please tell me how to play this game and max out gear without grinding? The fact that you can play this game (in a very limited fashion I might add) doesn't mean that the majority of this game isn't designed around grinding. Having 15 different types of currency pretty much makes that a fact.

Even if the way that I play is indeed in a limited fashion, what does that have to do with the price of tea in London? I'm having fun. Get it? I'm not grinding, I'm playing the game and having fun while I do so. I do need some of those currencies and more mats to get some shinies and I'll get them. Eventually. Without grinding. It will just take a few more months.

4. I'm glad you feel like a hero. It is nothing on par with the way we were undeniably heroes in GW1, but it's not that big of a deal really, compared to the rest of the manifesto.

Well, there was a bit of a celebration at the end of Prophesies, but I don't recall any NPCs thanking me after that. Nobody in Ascalon knew who the hell my Canthan character was even though I saved the world. Even my Ascalonian character was treated like a stranger more often than not. When my Ascalonian characters went to Cantha or Elona they didn't really save anyone, they just "relived" the events that happened before their arrival.

5. This one really made me LOL. No offense, but the fact that bosses are on timers pretty much makes it irrelevant if they spawn after the end of a DE or not. They are on timers! I'm sure that is not what ANet intended when they made the manifesto.

Hey! Glad I could make you laugh. So you don't see any difference between just standing around  waiting 10 minutes to kill a boss again and playing through 15 - 30 minutes of content before getting another crack at him? Content that could possibly, at least in theory, be failed and have to be started over again.



Can you come up with some way of getting around each and every one of those points by discounting the majority of the way people feel and making it all about you? Sure. That is the easy way of doing. But, ask the millions of GW1 players that quite GW2 because it didn't live up to their expectations, which were at least partially based on the manifesto, and you would be in the distinct minority.

Basically, you can say it is subjective all you want, but it would be naive to think that your opinion is the only one that matters. That is why I said you would have to be blind not to recognize the inconsistencies between the manifesto and the game. Not because someone might feel differently, but because it is obvious that many people feel there are differences and the differences are rather easy to see. You just happen to be good at ignoring them completely.


That means 2 of the 3 million+ that bought GW2 as of a few weeks ago were GW players and have quit. Mind revealing where you got that information? But you're still playing so you must feel differently than those millions that have quit. What's the difference between you and those millions that have quit? You harp on playing the game for fun. If you're not having fun, why are you still playing and arguing here?

I'll say it again. It's subjective. And feeling different about statements that can have several different interpretations and/or obviously not being literally applicable to everyone is subjective. And you thinking that I ignore everbody with different opinions completely is also subjective.




#22 El Duderino

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 09:18 PM

View PostMenehune, on 16 March 2013 - 09:12 PM, said:

Snip

Can you please format your post so it is readable?

Also, please keep in mind that you were specifically arguing the counter point to me saying that someone would have to be blind not to see the inconsistencies between GW2 and the manifesto.

Regardless of whether you agree with them or not, having a different subjective view has nothing to do with not being able to see or understand someone else's subjective view - especial if that subjective view is quite a large one.

It is quite clear that GW2 is nothing like GW1 except in geography and lore.

Regardless of other games, it is quite clear that GW2 has not eliminated the kind of grind they said they would, regardless of whether it is needed or wanted.

It is also quite clear, regardless of GW1, that in GW2 it is a stretch to consider yourself a hero based on the storyline.

Last, regardless of how well they did it or not, bosses are still on a predictable timer.

You just cannot deny these facts no matter how hard you want to.

Edited by El Duderino, 16 March 2013 - 10:12 PM.


#23 Fizzypop

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 09:39 PM

Pretty much have to disagree with you there. Anet did imply and said a lot of things which later did change or just plain weren't true. You know if they were just open/honest with the customer base I wouldn't have felt as let down. The biggest mistake a developer can make is pretending they never said or implied one thing when they in fact did. It makes it feel like a bait and switch even if that wasn't the intent. They knew it because they came out and said things like "we should've put the ascended items in other parts of the game when we added fractals" (not a direct quote, but paraphrasing). So they at least realize they made a mistake. Too bad it came after a few months of people feeling like they were lied too.

I mean look at the stuff going on with Simcity currently. Parts of the game were fluffed up, cut down, and not simulated as they said they would be. Gamers feel lied to and they were. You know what? They could apologize. Would it make it all better? Nope, but it sure as heck would go a long way to repairing some of the damage. Of course EAxis has burned so many bridges they really can't afford to keep making these same mistakes. They really need to outright apologize to their fanbase.

Anet isn't anywhere near EAxis level thankfully, but we are seeing more backlash from players because of bad gaming practices. A lot of gamers are getting burned and they are getting tired of it. I think being more honest is the only way for a gaming company to go now. I mean look at FF14. They admitted the fail and are actively talking to the customer base. They are being honest and open. It's working for them. If you are going to change fundamental parts of your game you definitely should expect backlash and be prepared to answer honestly. I will probably be the first to say it, but Gw2 is basically still in beta. I bought a game to beta it. I kind of saw it coming in august. They cut out a lot of content because they didn't have the time to work on it. That sucks. I don't blame them for releasing the game as is because I know sometimes it can't be helped, but I sure won't put on rose colored glasses either.

Edited by Fizzypop, 16 March 2013 - 09:42 PM.


#24 Coren

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 11:11 PM

View PostLordkrall, on 16 March 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:



You mean customers that instead of actually looking up a game before buying it and only listening to a MANIFESTO (which is btw a vision, not a fact) are betrayed?
They are not betrayed, they are just stupid for not checking up on things.
Loads of things people complain about was available for viewing long before the game was released.

Once.again you take.the high ground without thinking and want to clash with people.

It's called a publicity, meaning it was supposed to reflect a.product. It means that if we don't get what was advertised it's false.advertisement. You can spin it anyway you want, that's how it goes.

#25 Lordkrall

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 11:33 PM

View PostCoren, on 16 March 2013 - 11:11 PM, said:

Once.again you take.the high ground without thinking and want to clash with people.

It's called a publicity, meaning it was supposed to reflect a.product. It means that if we don't get what was advertised it's false.advertisement. You can spin it anyway you want, that's how it goes.

So if I hear a director talk about a movie idea today, and I really like the idea with all those awesome action scenes and epic wars scenes then go watch the actual movie in 5 years without checking up anything else I should blame the director for not making the movie exactly has he said those years ago?

A manifest is not supposed to reflect a product. It is supposed to reflect a plan, a vision or a wish.

#26 Robsy128

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 11:43 PM

I was going to give a long-winded reply but there's too much butthurt in this thread and it will end up in massive text walls of war as well as: 'NO, MY OPINION IS RIGHT!'

Basically, it is what it is right now. You either like it or you don't. If you do, go ahead and play it. If you don't, then don't play it. Simple. It's like eating a certain type of food. You wouldn't continuously eat poop now, would you?

#27 Dasryn

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 12:12 AM

im honestly surprised this thread is still open because discussios about the Manifesto have popped up countless times on these forums.

first off, watch that manifesto, like actually watch it.

they talk about the combat, the art direction and the story telling. - all of which they ve delivered on.

thats it, over 2 minutes of that 5 minute video is just gameplay with some music playing and zero dialogue.  there was nothing promised in that manifesto that they didnt deliver on.

as far as the quotes from those developers, all i can say is that when you start out with an idea, it starts big.  once the reality of development comes to realization, you end up chopping bits and pieces off of your original idea until it fits into things like: reality, budget restraints, technological limitations, etc.

it takes an enormous amount of work to make an mmorpg.  they also had to design gw2 in a way where it would survive the future but run on a wide array of different gamer's PC's - which is a daunting task.

i suggest you all, especially you El Duderino, just chill and accept the game for what it is.  sure we want improvements and innovations and new content, but for what it is, GW2 is proly the best mmorpg on the market currently and honestly for the foreseeable future.

Edited by Rickter, 17 March 2013 - 12:13 AM.


#28 El Duderino

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 12:47 AM

View PostRobsy128, on 16 March 2013 - 11:43 PM, said:

I was going to give a long-winded reply but there's too much butthurt in this thread and it will end up in massive text walls of war as well as: 'NO, MY OPINION IS RIGHT!'

Basically, it is what it is right now. You either like it or you don't. If you do, go ahead and play it. If you don't, then don't play it. Simple. It's like eating a certain type of food. You wouldn't continuously eat poop now, would you?

So an MMO should only be good or bad, and nothing else.

And, no one should ever criticize an MMO no matter what?

Gotcha. Again, I will use the same logic - if you don't like reading about it, quit the forums.

View PostLordkrall, on 16 March 2013 - 11:33 PM, said:



So if I hear a director talk about a movie idea today, and I really like the idea with all those awesome action scenes and epic wars scenes then go watch the actual movie in 5 years without checking up anything else I should blame the director for not making the movie exactly has he said those years ago?

A manifest is not supposed to reflect a product. It is supposed to reflect a plan, a vision or a wish.

We are talking about games not movies.

You can spin it however you want, but this game was sold primarily on the concept if it being the sequel to Guild Wars. It would have never sold 3 million copies without the original Guild Wars being one of the most popular MMO's ever.

Yet, it is nothing like GW1.

Just accept it, it is the truth. There is no spin.

#29 Robsy128

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 12:55 AM

View PostEl Duderino, on 17 March 2013 - 12:47 AM, said:

So an MMO should only be good or bad, and nothing else.

And, no one should ever criticize an MMO no matter what?

Gotcha. Again, I will use the same logic - if you don't like reading about it, quit the forums.



We are talking about games not movies.

You can spin it however you want, but this game was sold primarily on the concept if it being the sequel to Guild Wars. It would have never sold 3 million copies without the original Guild Wars being one of the most popular MMO's ever.

Yet, it is nothing like GW1.

Just accept it, it is the truth. There is no spin.

Why are you quoting me? I'm starting to think you're just looking for arguments. The point of my previous post is: everyone has criticized Guild Wars 2. Everyone has analysed it, played it, looked at it, come up with their own conclusions and discussed it with people who would care. The fact is this: Guild Wars 2 is as it is now. There's no point, and I really do mean this - no point whatsoever in discussing the manifesto video. It's in the past. It's gone. We now have the game.

To use the movie analogy, it would be like watching a trailer, seeing the film, and then talking about the trailer with everyone who has seen the film. There's just no point in it. You can mention it, sure. You could say something along the lines of: 'the trailer was better than the entire film', or, 'the trailer made it look completely different to what it actually was,' but there's no substantial conversation to be had about it.

I'm actually surprised people haven't been taking pictures of the promotional posters and saying: 'Anet lied to us! This bit of concept art is NOT in the game!'

#30 El Duderino

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 01:02 AM

View PostRickter, on 17 March 2013 - 12:12 AM, said:

im honestly surprised this thread is still open because discussios about the Manifesto have popped up countless times on these forums.

first off, watch that manifesto, like actually watch it.

they talk about the combat, the art direction and the story telling. - all of which they ve delivered on.

thats it, over 2 minutes of that 5 minute video is just gameplay with some music playing and zero dialogue.  there was nothing promised in that manifesto that they didnt deliver on.

as far as the quotes from those developers, all i can say is that when you start out with an idea, it starts big.  once the reality of development comes to realization, you end up chopping bits and pieces off of your original idea until it fits into things like: reality, budget restraints, technological limitations, etc.

it takes an enormous amount of work to make an mmorpg.  they also had to design gw2 in a way where it would survive the future but run on a wide array of different gamer's PC's - which is a daunting task.

i suggest you all, especially you El Duderino, just chill and accept the game for what it is.  sure we want improvements and innovations and new content, but for what it is, GW2 is proly the best mmorpg on the market currently and honestly for the foreseeable future.

First, actually go ahead and try and argue against the specific points I made above. No one that claims the manifesto was followed had even remotely tried to show how or why. You can't just assert you're right without explaining yourself. What kind of logic is that?

Second, I won't chill. Guild wars was a great game that I loved and there is nothing else like it. I will sing my song high in the treetops for as long as I want to in order to get ArenaNet to hear me and the thousands of others that feel the same way - whether it happens or not. You can't stop me, and I don't really care what you think about me or my message. And I will continue to point out flaws in the game, even if they are only my opinion.

If you don't like it, don't read it.

View PostRobsy128, on 17 March 2013 - 12:55 AM, said:



Why are you quoting me? I'm starting to think you're just looking for arguments. The point of my previous post is: everyone has criticized Guild Wars 2. Everyone has analysed it, played it, looked at it, come up with their own conclusions and discussed it with people who would care. The fact is this: Guild Wars 2 is as it is now. There's no point, and I really do mean this - no point whatsoever in discussing the manifesto video. It's in the past. It's gone. We now have the game.

To use the movie analogy, it would be like watching a trailer, seeing the film, and then talking about the trailer with everyone who has seen the film. There's just no point in it. You can mention it, sure. You could say something along the lines of: 'the trailer was better than the entire film', or, 'the trailer made it look completely different to what it actually was,' but there's no substantial conversation to be had about it.

I'm actually surprised people haven't been taking pictures of the promotional posters and saying: 'Anet lied to us! This bit of concept art is NOT in the game!'

Why do you bother posting if you don't want to get quoted or replied to?

I mean, that's kind of the point of a forum? Not to mention the fact that you basically told me to shut up and leave or shut up and stay.

And, not only is the movie analogy bad because this isn't a movie, it's bad because movies get slaughtered by reviews.

Edited by El Duderino, 17 March 2013 - 01:04 AM.





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